Anna

I can see why!

Yes, that's nice. She made lemonade out of lemons! Or a Mojito...wait that's limes, not lemons.....

Good one JWI!

The thing is, collateral damage is unintentional, so it doesn't really apply to deceitful men who hide who they are. Perhaps this would be more apt? : " Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits" 1 Cor 15:33 and "The one walking with the wise will become wise, But the one who has dealings with the stupid (who war with themselves) will fare badly". Proverbs 13:20. Just my two cents.

Just a wordier version of this: "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" The questions you quoted above are discussed in detail with those considering baptism.

Well no, that's not how I meant it at all. I apologize if my comment has mislead you. In a multi religious world, one has to be clear which religion one is identifying with. In the case of "Christianity", that was simple in the 1st. Century, there was only one. But of course now there are many "Christian" denominations (therefor one has to specify which one). So I was merely trying to parallel a situation whereby one was going to make it clear which religion one belonged to, and yes, for legal purposes.

Interesting. Didn't know that.

So you think saying "in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy spirit" has more value than asking "On the basis of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ, have you repented of your sins and dedicated yourself to Jehovah to do his will?" ? What makes you think one has to repeat those exact words as quoted in Matt 28:19,20? Would that mean also that we have to repeat the exact words at Matt 6:9-14? This question is merely an auxiliary question and is self explanatory. It is similar to asking if you identify yourself as a Christian. Also, it is only fair to ask this question so that there can be no misunderstanding. I don't see anything to the contrary....

Of course it applies to child molesters If you are going to make these statements then please back them up with evidence. How do you know known molesters are being treated the same way as they were before they were found out? How do you know nothing is done? Indeed. If there is no proof of murder, drunkenness or fornication then not even the Law can do anything about it. The congregation leaves it in Jehovah's hands until there is evidence. You now the saying, "innocent until proven guilty". How is that policing???

The article is looking at it from different angle to what you assume. What it is saying is that a person cannot go back on their baptism using it as an excuse that they didn't know what they were doing, therefor their baptism didn't count. There must have been cases where a baptized Witness has claimed their baptism wasn't valid in order to avoid being disfellowshipped. So what the article is saying, that if you have once made a dedication and got baptized and now have "tired of serving Jehovah or of living a Christian way of life" and want to go and fornicate etc. you will be disfellowshipped. What it boils down to is that someone who is known in the community as being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and is also known to be fornicating, can no longer be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are held accountable not only before Jehovah but before the congregation also. However, there exist situations where a Witness has faded and stopped associating with the congregation, and is no longer known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the community. Neither the elder nor members of the congregation go around policing those who no longer associate and so it is very unlikely that it will discover that this person is now living an immoral life and is celebrating all the holidays. In such a situation, they will no longer be held accountable before the congregation, but of course they will remain accountable to Jehovah (Romans 13:10 -12) Living an immoral life etc. does not undo what has already been done i.e. dedication and baptism. As for child baptism, Eoin has addressed that.

No one should get baptized and be ignorant of what they are doing, what with the 100 or so questions, and the elders going through the questions making sure the person has a clear understanding of what they are committing to. I suppose if someone wanted to go back on their dedication, and no longer wanting to be identified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, it wouldn't be because of ignorance, but rather because the person changed their mind and no longer believes what they believed when they got baptized....even if they were a child.

This could be off topic here, but I've heard about this, and have no idea where it came from. Can you be a little more specific? I only remember in the late 80's some Witnesses not wanting to buy products made by Procter and Gamble, and when you did yourself, they would say you shouldn't because something about the company being Devil worshipers or something like that. I never paid much attention to it as I never heard anything official about this. Where did the others get the idea from?

No argument there!

Oh really? I didn't know that. Kind of interesting since it could coincide with the theory of the overlapping generation.....

Still now they do not have a very good translation of the "New World Translation". If fact it regularly receives criticism form the "educated". Czech is a pretty complicated language and only the well educated have proper mastery of it. Hopefully the revised (silver) version will be much better! An interesting point though, many intellectuals and educated people balked at the communist regime in those days, and thus were made outcasts, and as a result embraced the Truth because they were looking for answers and the meaning of life. There are many stories of brothers starting studies with such individuals while in prison. Apparently even former president and playwright Vaclav Havel (who was imprisoned for his dissident views) received a witness. He is quoted as having said something to the effect of "that all sounds very wonderful, but I don't think I can wait....I want change now"....

I don't think anybody is arguing about the proclamation of Armageddon. It's just the dates. Numbers. I remember a couple of years ago at our convention, one of the GB in his talk said: "We promise you, NO more dates!" And so far, as far as I know, they have kept their promise

My thoughts too

I think it says "no matter how much you jog you will still die"

Yes. Good observation

Addition to my comment above: WT 66 10/15 p. 628 "To give aid today in this critical time to prospective sons of God,” announced President Knorr, “a new book in English, entitled ‘Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God,’ has been published.” At all assembly points where it was released, the book was received enthusiastically. Crowds gathered around stands and soon supplies of the book were depleted. Immediately its contents were examined. It did not take the brothers very long to find the chart beginning on page 31, showing that 6,000 years of man’s existence end in 1975. Discussion of 1975 overshadowed about everything else. “The new book compels us to realize that Armageddon is, in fact, very close indeed,” said a conventioner." I realize that this is not saying 1975 will be the start of Armageddon, but it is insinuation enough (sanctioned by the WT) to make some believe that it is indeed what is meant. Or could be meant . The is the trouble with the way the WT's are sometimes written, is that they leave so much room for speculation and personal interpretation. There is so much ambiguity, as seen by our recent discussion regarding the March 2017 study....

No, but wasnt that the logical conclusion? Because isn't Armageddon the end to oppression by Satan followed by the beginning of the 1000 years of Christ's rule? Wasn't 1975 (or that period) believed to be the end of the 6,000 years and the beginning of the Jubilee? “Life Everlasting – In Freedom of the sons of men” 1966 P. 28 under the heading “Six Thousand Years of Human Existence Now Closing” – “The time is fast drawing near for the reality that was foreshadowed by the Jubilee of liberty to be proclaimed throughout the earth to all mankind now oppressed by many enslaved things”…… P. 29 “ According to this trustworthy Bible chronology six thousand years from man’s creation will end in 1975, and the seventh period of a thousand years in human history will begin in the fall of 1975 C.E…… “So in not many years within our own generation we are reaching what Jehovah God could view as the seventh day of man’s existence.” P. 30 “How appropriate it would be for Jehovah God to make this coming seventh period of a thousand years a Sabbath period of rest and release, a great Jubilee Sabbath for the proclaiming of liberty throughout the earth to all its inhabitants!…… “It would not be by mere chance or accident but would be according to the loving purpose of Jehovah God for the reign of Jesus Christ, the Lord of the Sabbath” to run parallel with the seventh millennium of man’s existence…… “Consequently there is now every reason why the human creation will be set free, not by men, but by Almighty God. The long awaited time for this is at hand!

Hmmmm....perhaps this is why the older generation views the GB/Slave as having some special direct communication with God, tantamount to inspiration. My Mother in law said as much. I didn't want to argue with her, after all, she is 86. There just isn't any point. And this is why perhaps in recent years, especially very recently via the WT articles we have been discussing, the GB are trying to correct that concept.... P.S. To be honest, I too held this view similar to my mother in law 20 years or so ago.

Now you are speculating on what the WT meant! I agree, the WT is consistent in reminding Witnesses not to be speculating about setting dates. But I ask myself, why then did the WT even mention 1975? Wasn't that a date? Why was it discussed in the first place? Why even go into the calculations of 6000 years and God's rest etc.? Was it not to highlight where we may be in the stream of time? And wasn't that speculation itself? Why even mention all of it? What significance does the date 1975 have now? (except for discussions such as this) None at all! So you can see how unnecessary it was to mention that date in the first place! You are deceiving yourself Allen if you think that those who came up with that idea in the first place didn't have in mind that Armageddon may come in 1975.

True. And you may be on to something! I remember this WT study very well, including this particular paragraph and the sentence I underscored. It was the first time that something written in the WT really bothered me. I just had this weird feeling about it, that it just didn't sound right. In my mind I asked myself how was that meant, "communicating divine truths" ? And why would the resurrected ones communicate only some divine truths, and leave others out? This whole idea made it sound like the GB were getting some kind of visions, or ideas put in their heads (by the other members of the GB who had died). This did not sound right at all since the only helper Jesus said his father would give us was the holy spirit. And we can all be the beneficiaries of that, not just the GB. And we don't get visions or dreams so why would the GB get exclusive treatment when still on earth? The only time they differ from "us" is that they have "been called to heaven", I am not aware of any scripture which indicates that the GB would "receive divine truths" by some communication from heaven. In fact they have to work hard at discerning Bible truths, as they themselves have indicated. This whole communication idea just sounded off and out of sinc with everything else. And in any case, I do not understand why there is any relevance placed on when the first resurrection began. I am thinking, who cares? How does this affect anything else? Jehovah knows when he resurrects, why do we need to know? It will be interesting to see if we are given a new understanding of the identity of the 24 elders. If they are no longer seen as the 144'000, then perhaps Rev 7:13-14 will remove the need to think that the anointed in heaven are communicating with those still on earth. Thankfully our reasoning on many matters such as the ones you mention has become so much more reasonable. But I agree, it definitely looks like there might be some change in the pipeline and this WT study might be a kind of " trial balloon" . I am not sure I think this has some kind of significance. I understand this to mean simply that we shouldn't idolize them as if they were angels, because they are not.

Well.......thank you for making me suffer! Just kidding You are right, there does not seem a Biblical reason to limit it, more of a logical and practical reason as in "feeding many through the hands of a few" https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-feeds-many/ But I do understand how it pertains to all of us in the sense that it is the responsibility of all (as per the March WT you referenced). I was always under the impression that they would be put in charge of all the master's belongings when they were all in heaven anyway.....? You raise some valid points.