Anna

So it would seem logical that there should be a "ruling" body at the center. Do you consider "guardians of the doctrine" (as you know, a quote from G. Jackson) the same as "governors of our faith"?

I know. You've got to blame someone right?

I can understand why we thought that the evil slave came from the ranks of the faithful slave. At first glance the scripture does suggest that this could happen, so then when the schism came after Russell’s death, that became a logical conclusion. And then with the apostasy in the early 80’s at Bethel, the scripture could be applicable again. I can also get the new understanding as per WT 2013. In fact, in my mind, it places even more responsibility on the GB/Slave as “His words here are actually a warning directed to the faithful and discreet slave”. For that reason I do not feel this “new” teaching is trying to somehow avoid the potential for suspicion or questioning the GB. In fact it is saying that theoretically it is possible, albeit not realistic. I know that sounds like an oxymoron, but if the whole of the GB/slave became apostate, that would defeat the purpose of the role Jesus assigned the GB/slave in the first place. Although of course if that did happen, Jesus would find a way around that. But why complicate things, instead, going back to what I mentioned earlier, it is a grave warning to the GB/Slave. I think that makes more sense.

Not really a good argument, since no doubt the law doesn't just arbitrarily qualify something to be called by a particular name just for kicks and giggles, or an organization to be designated a function unless the law is reasonably sure that the organization qualifies. It would not be in the interest of the law makers to do so otherwise.

In order for an organization to qualify as a charity, or to have a charitable status, regardless of your definition or the dictionary's definition, it has to meet specific requirements of the country awarding the charitable status. Obviously, Jehovah's Witnesses meet those requirements in many countries.

For anyone who is interested in reading the final report from the Australian Royal Commission into institutional responses to child sexual abuse http://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/getattachment/c2d1f1f5-a1f2-4241-82fb-978d072734bd/Report-of-Case-Study-No-29

Exactly

You've got a point

I understand. There are a few ex-witnesses like Pearl Doxey (is that you?) who are convinced that WT is a false prophet and anti Christ etc. etc. and is convinced of various conspiracies etc. etc. I’m sorry to disappoint you but I don’t see anything that such ones believe has any relevance to the JW org. These people have their convictions and write their blogs and that is up to them and is fine by me. They can do whatever they want. However, on further investigation it becomes apparent that spending any amount of time reading their opinions is a complete waste of time, at least for me. And I am sorry, but replying to you is a waste of time for me also, as I suspected it would be, because you are convinced and want to believe what you want to believe and as I said, no matter what I say will change your mind. A couple of things I will mention though, One, you said “Christ is the source of Spirit, Truth and Salvation, and where our worship lies” and “God’s arrangement of teaching and leadership among “Jews” and “proselytes” (Zech 8:23; John 4:22; Rom 2:28,29) are the “living stones” built upon Christ, the cornerstone and the foundation of apostles and prophets” and “God explains that his “footstool” is his own anointed chosen FAITHFUL people within the Body of Christ – who become part of heavenly Zion, His Temple, through their sacrifice to God, to their Master, and to mankind” ---- That is all well and good, but on their own, they are merely words. But what do these words actually mean? And what do they mean in practice? (the Bible give us these answers). Similarly, anyone can say “I believe in Christ”, but those are just words too and many so called Christians will quote them and be content that this is the be all and end all to the question of salvation; that they will be saved. But there is much more to it than that. Matthew 7:21-27, James 1:25. Second I am sorry but this is complete nonsense. You and I both know that anyone with a spiritual need will seek out a church. If this church allows practically anything the person personally likes, and supports the life style they choose, then then many people will happily join that church. I saw it at the big church down the road where I used to live. It was like a club. Professionals such as Lawyers, Bankers and Doctors loved that Church. They felt blessed that they had such good jobs, a sense of community and a belief in Christ. Have a browse through their website and see what you think: https://www.southeastchristian.org/ So your theory about both money AND power is, like I said, nonsense. IF that is what it was all about, then I would say the GB are not doing a very good job of it at all. They would need to learn from the church I linked above, oh and bear in mind, all members of that Church pay a tithe of course....

Oh dear. I don't really want to reply to your questions because I have already been through this several times and no matter what I say is not going to change your mind anyway. But others read this too.......(note to self: to save time, I must remember to save my replies for next time I am asked the same old questions).... Worshiping in spirit and truth does not negate the need for organization. Also the scriptures you cited have nothing to do with there not being a need for organization. The first century Christians were organized to accomplish their ministry. The JWs are organized to accomplish their ministry also. Acts 4:12 says it. So no, JWs do not feel it's through an organization. And please don't come back to me with quotes from the WT like "in order to survive the great tribulation we must stick to the organization". These and similar quotes are not replacing salvation being through Jesus, they are merely reminders that sticking closely together and encouraging one another will help us to remain faithful to Jesus. No, JWs do not baptize in the name of an organization. I don't ever remember hearing that. The second part of the question is a public affirmation that the person being baptized in the name of the Father and the son, and the holy spirit will identify themselves with Jehovah's Witnesses. Nothing unscriptural about that. Yup. And don't come back to me with quotes from the WT talking about obedience to the elders and GB. No JW should ever obey anyone if they come to them with something contrary to the scriptures Yes. (I know already what you are going to come back to me with....) Daniel 2:44 Being seated at the right hand of God does not mean he is already ruling but is king designate Riches is relative. My home, which is modest by western standards will be viewed as luxury by someone living in a mud hut in Africa. The buildings we owned were very well taken care of. As for opulence, have you ever been in a Catholic church? Of course I will tell you all this is necessary to preach the good news of the Kingdom. How else are you going to do it? Let me tell you something else. I have had this discussion about this sort of thing with your buddies, and in the end they ALL admitted that the organization is not in it for the money and that the "7 men" at the "top" were not living in any more of "plush" surroundings than many other brothers and sisters. They also admitted that if those at the top were in it for the money, then they would be making sure all rank and file got a good education and job because more money for the rank and file would mean bigger contributions. Anyway, this is a ridiculous discussion as I have not seen any flaunting of material riches, merely well presented and taken care of premises, and neatly dressed and clean occupants.

Ooops! I realized I'd inverted the scripture. (I have number dyslexia ) it's Proverbs 18:13. Oh the imperfection. But the other scripture is good too

Oh I see, so you are one of these vigilante brothers/sisters who thinks that no one else can see or understand anything as well as they can. Well you are actually completely wrong about Eoin. Please get your facts right before you judge someone adversely. I can private message you a list of who are the apostates or have apostate leanings on this forum, and Eoin Joyce isn't one of them. Proverbs 13:18

Yeah, I noticed this brother in the Kingdom Book. And there was another one (in the WT) with the horse cart I think. One thing we can be sure of, Jehovah doesn't care whether a brother has a beard or not. As long as he is presentable and neat. It's a man made rule anyway, just like covering up body parts.

It will be looked at strangely at first, but people will get used to it. One has to also wonder what it is about a beard that is so stubbling, I mean stumbling? We know Jesus most likely had one. It's a kind of prejudice really. Also, anything that is new, people usually react in a defensive way, it's just imperfect human nature, since whether we are conscious of it or not, we are always judging and usually in a critical way. Mostly those who are stumbled by things like this are spiritually immature.The main thing I think that will be the deciding factor locally, is how a beard is perceived in the ministry. But I doubt any householder is going to think, "My, that person had a beard!!" Worldly people tend to be a lot more tolerant than we think. If they are accepting of homosexuals, surely they won't mind a little facial growth?

I know a brother in Europe, who is an elder and has a beard. And I know several brothers who are serving as ministerial Servants and have beards. Ultimately in the USA it will be up to the local elders to decide whether a beard is acceptable in their area or not. When the WT came out last May, our CO said that come end of the year, he expects many brothers (in the US) will be sporting a beard. I am fine with that, as long as as sisters don't start that trend too

No, not really, there are no ambiguities to remove. In fact even if something is totally black and white, there will always be people who will be contrary. I have already cited scriptures which attest to the fact that only some will see the “truth” and others will not. If we were to apply Jesus' narrow road, we can say that the majority will not see the truth. Also “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will". Now if we could not be sure what the doing of his will was, how could that statement made by Jesus be fair? And not only that, but in talking about ambiguity and the truth, we cannot ignore Satan’s vested interest in the outcome of what people will believe, as he is the father of the lie, he does not want anyone to learn the truth.

You are beginning to sound very much like Pilate I started writing an extensive reply to all of the points you made. And then I scrapped it all as we can be going backwards and forwards each expressing our opinions and quoting the opinions of others. One big difference between you and me is that you believe that God meant his word the Bible to be ambiguous, and I believe that this kind of thinking goes contrary to what God and Christ stand for. To be a Christian means to be a footstep follower of Christ. How can one follow properly if it is a matter of ambiguity? A case of “I want you to be my followers but I am going to make it ambiguous on how I want you to follow me”. John 8:31 " Then Jesus went on to say to the Jews who had believed him: “If you remain in my word, you are really my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.” Jesus’ word are his teachings, and these come directly from God, and God’s word is truth, and that is the Bible. It would be very illogical for Jesus to say all this if the the truth in the Bible was to be ambiguous. There would be no point. I remember having a discussion with my cousin, who had been christened a Catholic and believes in a little bit of Buddhism, a bit of Native American, and his own philosophy. We were trying to get to the root of how people end up believing what they do. The answer; people are either born into a religion, or they choose one that suits them best. I told him this could not be said of JWs in general. Yes, JWs look forward to paradise earth etc. but the real reason why they are JWs is because they want to please God and do what God wants, not what they want. They do not choose to be a JW because it suits them. On the contrary, many times it does not suit them at all. So in view of this, Jonsson’s reasoning that people who "have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord, Redeemer, and Teacher, and who may be found in any kind of Christian fellowship that proves to be of help in their endevour to lead a Christian life” applies for the most part to people who choose a particular fellowship because THEY feel it helps THEM to lead a Christian life, without actually confirming whether the life they are leading is recognized by God and Jesus to be truly Christian.. I do not dispute that throughout the centuries there have been individuals who have led an exemplary Christian life to the best of their ability and fought for what they believed was the truth. But according to the Scriptures the situation would be different in the time of the end:, in the time of the end God would gather people to himself again as a group of worshipers, not scattered among differing beliefs: Isaiah2:2,4 “In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. He will render judgment among the nations And set matters straight respecting many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, Nor will they learn war anymore. Zecheriah 8:20-23: ““This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘It will yet come to pass that peoples and the inhabitants of many cities will come; and the inhabitants of one city will go to those of another and say: “Let us earnestly go to beg for the favour of Jehovah and to seek Jehovah of armies. I am also going.” And many peoples and mighty nations will come to seek Jehovah of armies in Jerusalem and to beg for the favour of Jehovah.’ “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.” Daniel 12:4 ““As for you, Daniel, keep the words secret, and seal up the book until the time of the end. Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant” verses 9, 10 “Then he said: “Go, Daniel, because the words are to be kept secret and sealed up until the time of the end. Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand”

Sorry I dragged you back in here . I will reply to you and JWinsider sometime (probably a few days). I just need to leave a quick reply on another discussion, but I will have to leave this one till later.

Food for thought...

That was hilarious! Took me back to my younger days!

Wonderful experience and very apt! I agree with you of course. I was just being too technical in my reply to Johniffer as he said "Thanks for this reminder. hope more people read this. they don't know what they are doing because they don't believe bad spirits exist". It didn't seem logical to me as why would people suddenly start believing in bad spirits based on that article...But I can see your point, some thought process could be triggered, as shown by the example you posted. I was looking at it too narrow minded!

Moses was inspired, because he wrote several Bible books, but he was not infallible and made mistakes. The GB are not inspired (the Bible is complete) and make mistakes, but they do rely on God's holy spirit through the Scriptures. As we all should.