Anna

True.... How does Jesus’ illustration of the fig three fit into this? “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors”. I am kind of more inclined like the Praeceptor to think that it was more of “I don’t want to die”. But on the other hand, death would have meant their reward of heavenly life, so maybe it was the fact that they wanted to see the vindication of Jehovah’s name in their life time, but one could also argue that what better vantage point than heaven to see this,.... I have to wonder too, why would one want to stick ones neck out.... I am trying to put myself in their shoes, especially with Russell and his associates, how exciting it must have been to be discovering Bible truth, a bit like solving a mystery in an Indiana Jones movie, and how tempting it must have been to get carried away in interpreting Bible prophesy. As we know, Russell for a time even saw Bible prophesy in the Pyramids.... I guess it’s natural to assume that YOU are the one who is going to see the fulfillment. We have been saying the end is NEAR for over a hundred years, and this is technically true since 100 years in the grand scheme of time is not really that long, especially when 1000 years is as a day to Jehovah. That’s why I would find it a little hard to believe that two years for example would hold much significance, when we used to say that was the period of captivity to Babylon. (1916 –1919, think it was) I always kind of thought that didn’t sound right so when the brother (br. Lett?) asked that “million dollar question”, I guessed it immediately, because it made so much more sense (period of captivity to Babylon from the first apostasy in the 1st century up to when Russell started to pave the way as Jehovah’s messenger (rattling of the bones)). Sorry I digress a little here, but it’s just to show that what was previously 2 years, became nearly 2000 years, much more realistic. Back to my point, 100 years in comparison is nothing, but admittedly it’s not long looking back, but it can appear long when you are looking forward. So if we were to say Armageddon won’t come for another 100 years, well, all of us posting on here would no longer be alive, so then it would be rather long! And it would definitely not feel like it was near! So this is why I think it was more natural for them to put a time limit on it during their life time. But I can see why you would say it is a little arrogant, especially when one proclaims that "millions now living will never die”. That does seems kind of presumptuous, although I believe it was said in genuine faith. What I can’t understand is that after a series of disappointments I wonder why the slave is trying to explain the generation again. When bro. Splane introduced it on broadcasting I don’t remember him saying “by popular demand” or “some have wondered” or “some found it difficult to understand” ....etc. therefore I will explain it using this chart....etc. Since you still keep in touch with a few Bethelites, would it be possible to find out the reason WHY the overlapping generation was explained again?

I hear you! I look at it his way though, information IS power. But you are so right when you say they.." had to "research" and write books etc just to prove that THEY were right..." THAT was their downfall, and pride. It always is. So if we keep information from making us haughty (merely informed/empowered) then we can still be happy P.S I like to read both the good and bad reviews when buying something or booking a vacation. I just like to be informed about the positive and the negative, it makes me feel...um...yes, empowered

I really do not feel like there is any point in arguing with you extensively, merely a few points to make sure other readers do not misunderstand. 1. I never said I wanted to read C. Jonsson's apostate book. I was referring to his treaties he sent to the society in the 70's, he was still a Witness in good standing then. 2. I said I was going to stick with the WTS because they are the best out there. And I said JWInsider said something similar. Where doesn't that make sense? 3. Please get out of the habit of assuming. The best thing to do is ask questions. Such as: "when you said this and that did you mean this?" It is very frustrating when you attribute thoughts to people, when the person didn't even think them. When I said I like real life and experience, why did you think that included reading apostate books? I did not mean that at all. Also I don't believe R. Franz was a good friend of yours. I think you made that up. 4. I have quite a few facts on how "you've been treated here", from the other forum as well. And yes, I am Anna from the other forum, I kept my name just like you and the others did. 5. I don't think you meant to say "I’m here to show the dishonesty, deception and misrepresentation of the WTS" No need to reply to this. I don't really want to talk to you anymore. It seems like you are suffering from some kind of persecution complex and that hampers normal discussion. Thank you.

Sorry I forgot to comment, well I can't properly yet because I hate numbers (although they are very useful ) so it takes me a while to digest everything, but in essence I can see where you are coming from. Have you noticed a common thread though, whenever anyone talks about the "end" it always comes in THEIR life time, (regardless of any Generation calculations) Russell 1874, Rutherford 1925, Franz (was it?) 1975 and now, although there is no date as such it is still supposed to happen in the current GB's life time. Isaac Newton was the only one that I know of that "predicted" the end well past his.

I do not think JWInsider is arguing against his own core values at all. I do not agree with everything JWInsider posts, and he himself is rarely (if ever) dogmatic. None of us should really insist that we are right, because regarding some subjects we REALLY DO NOT KNOW, not a 100% and we won’t know until Jehovah finally reveals it all to us, (probably after Armageddon). What we are doing is reasoning on the information available to us. Some of that information may be wrong as well. I cannot really comment properly on the 607/ 587 Chronology because I have not researched it enough myself like you and JWInsider have. I would have to read Carl Jonsson’s treatise, and a host of other things. I do not think I will any time soon, the main reason being that it is not THAT important to me (echoing the Praeceptors sentiments). I am more of a practical person, although I do find that kind of thing very interesting, to me there is nothing like real palpable evidence, not on paper, but real life. To me real life and experience proves that what we call Jehovah’ organization really does seem to have his blessing. It is by no means perfect, and I am good with that because that would not be realistic, but it is the best that’s out there, (echoing JWInsiders sentiments) so I’m going to stick with the best unless they prove otherwise… I have personally not experienced Witnesses pretending to be Witnesses and actually be apostates or Df’d. That is not to say I am not aware or familiar with apostate reasoning and propaganda (Malawi/Mexico, NGO, Cigarettes, pedophilia, flags, Hitler, blood fractions, organ transplants, theocratic warfare, pyramids, Beth Sarim, etc. etc…….too many to name, and not including a host of “conspiracies”) . Also, I have read Raymond’s book, which was very interesting and informative, but also filled with little twists and half truths. So you see I am not ignorant when it comes to apostate reasoning. By the way you write, it appears that you are pretty young. Age, experience and Christian qualities teach that we can put our point across with tact, and without resorting to insults and ad hominem remarks. Jesus and Jehovah never do that, and we should try to imitate them as best as we can, although it can be a struggle at times (talking about myself).

I am sure JWInsider is quite capable of defending himself but I am wondering why you insist on him being either an apostate or df'd? And why would he post on apostate sites, as a supposed apostate himself, posing as an active Witness? Your reasoning makes no sense to me.....

Of course everything we need is already in the Bible. No one is disputing that. We are talking about dispensing Bible truth though. The Bible itself, sitting on peoples bookshelves gathering dust, isn’t going to do much good at all. The Bible does not jump off the shelf and “dispense” itself in due season, someone has to do the dispensing. I have quoted this scripture before on here I am sure; Romans 10:15, but there is also the example of the Ethiopian eunuch at Romans 8:30-31 “Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” He said: “Really, how could I ever do so unless someone guided me?” So he urged Philip to get on and sit down with him....." And of course there are scores upon scores of other verses in the Christian Greek scriptures regarding evangelizing. As long as the WTS adheres to the Bible, then what they say is the word of God essentially, because it is FROM the word of God. Of course we can argue about interpretation, but so far, I cannot disagree with most things the WTS “interprets” . Even my Bible study understood that the WTS publications are not intended to replace the Bible, but are simply Bible AIDS. JWs do not follow the WTS, they follow Jesus, and cooperate with the WTS. Big difference. If ever the WTS starts “teaching” contrary to the Bible then I will be among the first to exit. And in case you want to argue chronology, then I have to let you know, getting chronology wrong is not an indicator to me of “teaching contrary to the Bible” . Chronology is something non essential to me. I cannot see how one’s relationship with Jehovah would have to depend on dates. No, that was actually not the point at all. The quotation marks are rather important because as I am sure you are aware, in speech they indicate a kind of irony, same goes for written language. They are called sneer quotes. In other words, the kind of ‘bible reading’ these people were doing was actually NOT independent or exclusive Bible reading at all, it was merely “so called” (such) Bible reading, whatever that entailed, regardless, or not including reading it apart from WTS publications. So that was the point the authors were implying. In other words they do not believe someone reading the Bible would come to the same conclusions as Christendom if they were totally ignorant of Christendom's ideas and teachings in the first place. Would someone reading the Christian Greek scriptures with no prior knowledge of the teachings, customs and traditions of Christendom think that God was three persons in one? Would they think that Jesus wanted us to celebrate his birth every year? Would they think God wants them to take up arms and fight? I don't think so. OK. This is the funniest thing I have read on here! Thank you for the laugh. Now seriously, you are not being serious right? But if you are, then it proves my point above.

I realize you are talking about a scenario where it concerns another religion besides JWs, but the answer is essentially the same, if it bothers you that much, then do something about it. I should have included a fourth option, which would be research, but I was assuming that research was already done, as I believe someone would not disagree with something just for the sake of it, but would have a legitimate (at least to them) reason for their disagreeing.This goes for JWs also.....

As I see it, you would have three choices: 1.Don't let it bother you, pray about it, and wait until perhaps things cleared up 2.if it really bothered you, talk to a mature Christian about it, or 3. Leave, because why would you stay if you don't agree. What you do, would be up to you. What you chose to do in the end would probably depend on what you disagreed with, and how important it was to you.

I also answered this previously! I copy and paste it here so you don't have to go looking for it: "As for harboring private ideas, well, no one can stop private ideas, and no one except Jehovah needs to know about them. Again to what extend and what KIND of private ideas one harbors does have a baring on the maturity of the Christian. The operative idea is NOT "harboring". This suggests that on the contrary, we should be able to talk about them. And if these private ideas foster doubt, then we should definitely talk to a mature Christian about them".

There is a big difference between arriving at the same conclusions and having a fault finding attitude. I think you misunderstood me. All I was saying was that the Slave are just like us, with the same brain. However someone has to be in "charge", and dispense the spiritual food, despite the fact that others may be just as good at coming to logical conclusions, and maybe even sooner than the Slave. I have read that highlighted quote a few times before. Wasn't it mentioned on one of the broadcasts a few months ago....I might be wrong. In any case, the point of it was not that they were reading the Bible, after all we are always being encouraged to have a Bible reading schedule of at least a chapter or few a day. But they were using "such" "Bible Reading" (note quotation marks) as an excuse to do what they really longed for, i.e. celebrating Christmas, Birthdays and whatever else they found more appealing than what the Bible really teaches. Christendom has been doing a good job of that for centuries already, tickling peoples ears with falsehood disguised as Bible truth.

This is just my opinion, trying to be logical about it: Anyone with the right qualifications (long years of faithful service, spirituality, being of the anointed, and rubbing shoulders with the right people) can become a member of the GB. Besides that, there really is nothing "special" about any members of the GB. I believe any JW who knows their Bible can come to the same conclusions as the GB, and I am sure there are hundreds of brothers and sisters who have already, before it ever becomes an "official" teaching, come to the "right" conclusion about a specific subject themselves. I don't want to brag, but it has happened to me several times. (And I can't even say my Bible knowledge is THAT good). So does that mean I was spirit directed? Of course not. No more than the members of the GB are. But somebody on earth has to take the lead of course. It would also be good however if the "leaders" were able to humbly accept mistakes and not feel the need to have to "appear infallible" because everybody knows they are not anyway. I am aware that they are concerned with "the sheep in their care not losing their confidence in them". Because I guess if that happened everything would come crumbling down? I don't really think so. You mentioned the "overlapping Generation Theory" that was so "masterfully" explained by Br. Splane. The truth is that IF 587 was the TRUE date of Jerusalem's desolation, that would buy us 20 more years, and if we assumed a generation to be 100 years it might make the "overlapping" unnecessary. We have "dug" ourselves in so deep with 1914 (now with the Kingdom book) would going back on that date cause the "sheep to lose confidence in the slave"? I don't know how others feel, but I don't think so. After all, is being in the Truth about dates, or is it about our relationship with Jehovah, and our trust in Him? I wonder if the insistence on 1914 is merely to "save face" or is it because the slave REALLY believes 607 is the correct date? On the other hand, no one can deny that 1914 really was a pivotal date in world history. This cannot be said so much about 1934 except that Hitler appointed himself Fuhrer in October of that year.....How about Hitler becoming Fuhrer in 1934 being the direct opposite of Christ who would have been made King in 1934, and Satan who was hurled out of heaven exerting his influence on him (Hitler) to start WW2? Doesn't sound any more unbelievable to me than an overlapping generation ....

Yes, the statement is false if you want to get technical. But nobody will really pay much attention to it because it's not false in a sense where it would have a negative impact or become a stumbling block to anyone I'm sure. I am trying to look at it from Jehovah's point of view (from what we know from the scriptures about his views). Would Jehovah find that statement offensive? Perhaps somebody should call Bethel and point the discrepancy out, or ask why it was stated this way. It would be interesting to learn the answer.....

Can I put an end to this argument (discussion)? On page 50, paragraph 5 and 6 of the book says: "As we saw in Chapter 2 of this book, the Bible Students spent decades pointing out that the year 1914 would be significant in fulfilling Bible prophecy. However, at that time they believed that Christ’s presence had begun in 1874, that he had begun to rule in heaven in 1878, and that the Kingdom would not be fully set up until October 1914. The harvest would extend from 1874 to 1914 and would culminate in the gathering of the anointed to heaven. Do mistaken ideas such as these cast doubt on whether Jesus was guiding those faithful ones by means of holy spirit? 6 Not at all! Think again of our opening illustration. Would the premature ideas and eager questions of the tourists cast doubt on the reliability of their guide? Hardly! Similarly, although God’s people sometimes try to work out details of Jehovah’s purpose before it is time for the holy spirit to guide them to such truths, it is clear that Jesus is leading them. Thus, faithful ones prove willing to be corrected and humbly adjust their views.—Jas. 4:6."

" there is nothing wrong with a personal opinion, it is the advocating or insisting on it". I would never insist on my opinion with the friends. I will mention it once, have a discussion, but I will not keep on going on about it. I am talking about it here, as this is a controversial section, and people have the choice to either come here and read it or not. In this regard I am not pushing my opinion on a captive audience. In fact I don't think I am pushing my opinion at all (correct me if I am wrong) I am merely explaining how I feel and why.

Mostly true. As you know, I find it curious that "we" find it necessary to keep "explaining" the Generation. (Actually, it really gets on my nerves. So much so that I think I will have to go to the bathroom when we are going to go over the chart in the Kingdom Book). The question is, what can we do about it? Nothing really. Well there is something, we just continue doing our part as the Praeceptor rightly reminded me, concentrate on helping other see the fundamental truths in the Bible and the comfort for the future, and let the "haughty" (it that's what they are) worry about what they've said or not said. I have to keep telling myself this. After all we will all stand before Jehovah individually.

Thank you for your kind reminders. I appreciate it!

You didn't read my answer properly.

I agree with everything that you and the Praeceptor have said. That is my point: why is the Slave "worrying" about it? And you are welcome

An Elder should not really give his opinion, especially as regards whether someone will have God's approval or not. My point in asking that question is to see whether it is something we as JWs are supposed to believe. Because I sure find it hard to believe, and I wholeheartedly agree with you that "why do we keep discussing it"? (on JW broadcasting as "masterfully" explained by Br. Splane, then later on broadcasting I forget by whom, and now we will be discussing it in the Cong. Bible study). It is not really important, as you pointed out, and so I cannot understand why it is so important to the Slave, important enough to construct a chart, and discuss it twice, a few months apart. I totally with agree WT 13 1/1 p3. as well. The thing is who is "we"? As in "we" have had some wrong expectations. You and I have only had wrong expectations because the Slave has had wrong expectations first. If the slave hadn't had those expectations and if they hadn't written about them in our publications then I doubt any of us would have had those expectations in the first place. Highlighting the nearness of the end is one thing, but placing time limits on it is another. I do not want to criticize the Slave for this, I am merely trying to understand the reason for them insisting on trying to figure out the generation, after not a very good track record of getting that kind of thing right.....I hate to think this way, but what IF this overlapping generation runs out too? Not that I am bothered by that personally, because I believe we should all "keep in expectation of it and be "ready" regardless of any time limits and numbers", but how will this make the Slave look? So I am thinking they must be very confident that they are correct with this overlapping Generation theory......

Here is an interesting article regarding JWs as "prophets" from a non JW"s point of view. JW prophesy.pdf

That is something I cannot understand. WHY try to explain the generation? Obviously this "new (overlapping) understanding" is not something just put out there to see if it sticks. The GB never publicize anything unless it has been studied, and re-studied and re-searched, sometimes even over several years apparently. So it has to have been the same in this case. What I would like to know is what is it that made them arrive at this conclusion? And also why did they think there was a need to explain the Generation again? It is obvious in Jesus day it was 40 years. Abraham's 400 years was 4 generations. So a generation is either 40 or 100 years. Why overlap anything??? There is nothing about overlapping in the scriptures is there? Next week, when we study it in our Cong. Bible study, I am going to ask an elder if someone does not believe in the overlapping generation, would they lose Jehovah's approval. I will let you know what answer I get .

I agree with you there. It seems that "we" just cannot plainly come out and say "we were wrong" instead of beating around the bush or using all the other adjectives you described. I think this may be because "we" feel, as God's ambassadors that, we really cannot, or should not make any mistakes in the eyes of others. I remember when I was a child, I thought my mother was perfect, that she never made any mistakes. She was my protector and someone I looked up to. Of course as I got older I realized she was not perfect. I also realized she was trying to keep me from finding out her imperfections by never actually admitting when she erred. I asked her why. She said it was because she did not want me to lose my trust in her. That she wanted me, as a child, to view her with confidence. This reminded me of something I read about the GB saying something very similar. That they do not want the "other sheep" to lose their confidence in them. I think this may very well be the reason why "we" just cannot plainly and freely admit mistakes, after all, "we have a reputation to live up to"!

1) How about John 11:26? Obviously those people in Jesus’ day died. But they didn’t die in Jehovah’s memory and will have the prospect of living forever. Although obviously Rutherford was being literal, we could look at it in a similar way, so in view of the above, it was not a lie. 2) In my opinion the GB etc. never prophesied about anything as such. What they put forward was merely the interpretation of existing Biblical prophecy. 3) Not sure about that one... 4) After the disappointment and anticlimax of 1914 I guess they now felt excited and vindicated when they were exonerated and released from prison, and felt this was a good a time as any to “recognize” themselves as the FDS with now the great task of taking care of the domestics and advertising the King and his Kingdom. They recognized that evidently the job Russell started was not done. 5) To me personally it does not matter. Fundamental truths are the same and have been almost since the inception of the Bible Students. I don’t view it as a false prophesy, merely an eager and ambitious statement coming from one man and his associates excited about this “new” understanding and Bible prophesy regarding this subject. After all, this IS the good news in the Bible, so I don’t think that just because the timing is off, one has to view it with suspicion, or that it should have never been talked about. "Millions now living will never die" WILL eventually happen. 6) Possible....Plus Jehovah’s organization on earth will never get everything perfectly right in this system, for obvious reasons. So that's my two shillings

It says a "mature Christian". We are all at different levels of Christian maturity, learning and adjusting out views and opinions. It also suggests there is nothing wrong with a personal opinion, it is the advocating or insisting on it. That is immature. As for harboring private ideas, well, no one can stop private ideas, and no one except Jehovah needs to know about them. Again to what extend and what KIND of private ideas one harbors does have a baring on the maturity of the Christian. The operative idea is NOT "harboring". This suggests that on the contrary, we should be able to talk about them. And if these private ideas foster doubt, then we should definitely talk to a mature Christian about them. As regards "To survive the great tribulation and Armageddon, the WTS says the great crowd must be JWs in good standing" JWInsider has covered that.