Anna

Thank you for the pertinent quotes and observations. Very helpful "Yet, the gains that Witnesses have made in various countries around the world are almost always in proportion to the number of missionaries from Christendom who were allowed to work in these areas in the 17th through the 19th centuries. If Christendom paved the way, then we will do relatively well. If Christendom had been allowed very few concessions or none, then this is also the predictor of how well we have done (so far) - True. "...think about our own attitudes. Armageddon, Jehovah's impending judgment, should be a "motivation" for us to show whether we look at our fellow inhabitants with love. Do we see "each" and every individual [in the entire world] as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah? Love makes us want to share the good things we have. If we love our neighbor, we want to share our experiences with them. If they are uncomfortable, or suffering, we want to share what we can with them to make them more comfortable, and ease their suffering. ". - YES. For a while some had the attitude that “We are God’s elite and the rest are Amharetz” . I remember you wrote in one of your posts about how one of the members of the GB got upset when Bethel wasn’t ranked number 1 as the cleanest offices one year, or something like that. It is understandable because as God’s organization, we should want to be the best we can be in everything, however if the attitude isn’t coupled with humility then it can bring in an air of superiority, which can rub off on others. I remember (and I am sure some of us had that experience at one point) when out in field service some would “joke” about how they would get that “goats” house after Armageddon. I am glad our overall attitude has changed and it is more like you described. I have not heard anyone say anything similar for many, many years now. On the contrary, there is a lot more kindness and compassion for the householders. Interestingly, those who made such pompous, judgemental remarks are no longer in the truth.... "Unquestionably, not one of us is qualified to weigh these, and perhaps many other, vital factors and principles. We could not reach judgments that are ‘perfect, righteous and upright.’ (Deut. 32:4) Hence, why should any of us become needlessly involved with trying to decide who will survive and who will not?" - Yes, very true. Of course we can't decide. In that case, it still begs the question though what will happen to aprox. 7 million people who have no chance of getting to know Jehovah because of the time factor. "That judgment lies in the future and belongs to the one Jehovah has appointed, Jesus Christ. Until the judgment is passed, we view each individual as having the potential to become a servant of Jehovah". - This is probably the most satisfying answer, (to me anyway) because if we can view someone as "having the potential", then Jehovah can actually KNOW the potential. This is perhaps the answer to what will happen to those without knowledge, they will be judged according to their potential....It is interesting also to consider Matthew 25:41- 43 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.For I became hungry, but you gave me nothing to eat; and I was thirsty, but you gave me nothing to drink."....etc. It is obviously talking about those who SHOULD have known him and his representatives on earth, but chose not to. Those who are ignorant of Jesus and Jehovah, not through choice, surely cannot fall into this category.....imo. This would also of course apply to those who are intellectually limited. As for children...that's a difficult one since they are the responsibility of their parent, nevertheless they are innocent, for the time being anyway, but Jehovah can project what they would be like once they grew up I am sure.... My very good friend, when she first started to study, had a problem with this question regarding children, she didn't really get a satisfying answer (to her) at the time. It bothered her as she had a much younger brother, who was just a toddler. But she persevered and became a loyal sister nevertheless. Forward 30 years later:This little "toddler" is now a practicing homosexual, drug addict and a useless member of society choosing to lead a debauched life and criminal life. This is of course not to say he could not change, but the point is, children grow up, and choose a way of life according to their wishes, for the most part, so Jehovah surely would be able to see what kind of persons they would become...... "Religion is generally designed to bring comfort, but often leaves people less comfortable. Religion seems not to address the terrible prospects for the planet brought about by the greed of man. Yet, our message is a very comforting one for those sighing and crying, desperate, and broken-hearted -- including especially, those who have a love for life on this planet". - Nice statement

Ok, Ok, I think found it. The Praeceptor said return "To the congregation! If you want to be part of the christian congregation you must adhere to the biblical high standards" I think that's what you mean. Well of course, if you return to God and Christ you will adhere to Biblical standards, and automatically want to return to the congregation. Both go hand in hand. What the Praeceptor said is correct. What I said was correct. Both aspects are in the Bible. If you want to read something about organization: https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/watchtower-study-november-2016/organized-in-harmony-with-gods-word/

I don't know what the Praeceptor said, I couldn't find it....perhaps you can tell me

Of course God does not need a thing from us to do his will. His will is that " all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth". (1 Tim 2:4) The preaching work is a kind privilege He gives to faithful ones so they can demonstrate their love, obedience and loyalty to him. Never mind the fact that it was actually a command from Jesus, to go and make disciples. (Matthew 28:18-20) "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved.”However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach? How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!" (Romans 10:13-15)

My other sentence clarified my statement: " We want to make sure we have God's and Christ's understanding on what it means to "come" to them".

If you were one of Jehovah's Witnesses you would know what I meant by come back. It's obvious it is come back to God and Christ. However, that statement in itself is very ambiguous and means different things to different people. We want to make sure we have God's and Christs understanding on what it means to "come" to them. I see to you, organization is a dirty word. However, God is a God of order and there can be no order unless there is organization, especially as regards the enormous task of "preaching in all the inhabited earth", which his followers would be doing. Also, there could be no doctrinal unity without organization. There is only one truth. No one has ever suggested that the judicial committee is any kind of mediation between man and Christ. The sole purpose of a judicial committee is to ascertain, on available evidence, whether a person can continue to be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses. The Christian congregation (on a larger scale the organization) must be kept morally and spiritually clean, otherwise it would lose God's approval as being his representatives and ambassadors. It has happened, on very rare occasions, that someone has been wrongfully disfellowshipped. If that was the case, then this would have no baring on how God and Christ view them. Conversely, if they have been rightfully disfellowshipped, then it is still ultimately up to Jehovah and Christ how they view them, their view is what ultimately counts and not the brothers view. Jehovah reads the heart and he knows the full situation. As regards coming back to an organization, well that is logical, that is where your spiritual brothers and sisters are, people of like mind and belief. It is not God's purpose to have randomly scattered people who have "come" to him and Christ but who do not associate with others who have done the same. - “This is what Jehovah of armies says, ‘In those days ten men out of all the languages of the nations will take hold, yes, they will take firm hold of the robe of a Jew, saying: “We want to go with you, for we have heard that God is with you people.”’” (Zechariah 8:23) "In the final part of the days, The mountain of the house of Jehovah Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, And it will be raised up above the hills, And to it all the nations will stream. And many peoples will go and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, To the house of the God of Jacob. He will instruct us about his ways, And we will walk in his paths.” For law will go out of Zion, And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem........." (Isaiah 2: 2 - onward)

Well that is what I generally think, because it would seem like that according to Matt 20:1-15. That is why I started wondering about those billions of people in India and China and the statistics of 1:400, which of course do not exist there. It seems illogical to think that those two countries would have virtually no one (relatively speaking) whose heart would be inclined to the truth, because all people are basically the same as regards heart conditions; that there should be at least 1 out of 400 Chinese and Indian persons who would accept the truth. If we were to say no, wouldn't that be racist? So in view of this, there is at least 7 million who still need to come to know Jehovah....and there is no time for that....so that is why I got to wondering about how would it be done and if anyone had any scriptural suggestions. But you are right, in the end these are theoretical games. In any case, with Jehovah, anything is possible. P.S. I spoke to a brother at our hall the other day whose son and his wife are special pioneers in Indonesia and they have a nice little congregation going there. I think that's what got me to thinking about the vastness of the far east, and all those billions of people living there....

When I was a young teenager I would worry in case I sinned against the holy spirit, which is unpardonable. How would one know? As I got more knowledge and experience in the truth I realized that those who commit the unpardonable sin do NOT ever want to repent or come back. So even if someone sins greatly, (even joining false religion for a time) and they seek forgiveness and repentance, that in itself is a sign they have not committed the unforgivable sin. Quite logical really.

Just history and experience Holly

Holly, I'm afraid I do not subscribe to the beliefs of Christendom. To me, their leaders are counterfeit Christians, and most of who follow them, or profess to be Christians are such in name only.

Hi Praeceptor, I said nearly half because there is 8 million of us right now, so if the other 7 million also came in then that would be almost double, i.e. 8 + 7 = 15. But if the 7 million do not ever hear of the truth (which was my reasoning prior to that) then they would have to enter the new system ignorant of Jehovah.....so that would mean nearly half of the people who would survive Armageddon would not know him.... I agree with you fully, I don't care either how long the "generation" is and that is why I wish we would stop discussing it. We will be going through it (again!) at our congregation Bible Study at the end of this month.....Just like you, I prefer to focus on becoming a better Christian, and the ministry, and to be ready. I get a little frustrated when we go on about the "overlapping" I wish we would stop it, as (to me) it makes no sense at all....

Your lovely long posts are not annoying me in the least . I just wish I had more time right now. I am working towards a deadline which is at the end of this month and I still have so much to do. I come here to get a quick break and distraction, so I don't burn out, and I even posted a quick topic, which I later realized I titled completely wrong... .but I can't change it now.....and I have no time to properly reply on it either, at least not if I don't want to make any further blunders .....So, roll on end of the month and then I can breathe again...I'm still working and it's well past midnight here...

Thank you JW, you are right of course, my statement was rather arbitrary. I had researched this topic quite a while ago, but I should have gone back and refreshed my memory. I am pressed for time right now and I should have waited until I had time to get my facts right before posting, instead of just shooting from the hip. Not a good habit if you want to present a proper argument. Thanks for all the additional information.

Yes, plenty long enough, perhaps "generation" is just a time period, and not a literal generation.

OK, to put an even finer point on it: to be granted the prospect of everlasting life. I knew what you were referring to. This area is something that I think we haven't got quite right yet.

In this particular instance I mean survive Armageddon. I should change the title. Another group? No, I can't see that. The scriptures only mention 2 groups, the anointed and the other sheep

Well I guess it depends how you look at it. From our perspective, yes, the Bible Students did begin discerning Christ's presence in 1914. It is no secret that the Bible Students were disappointed. It was written about quite a number of times, that their expectations were wrong. In fact, page 50, paragraph 5, of God's Kingdom Rules, does not hide the fact either.

It is relative. As "fully" as humanly possible, in their limited human capacity. There is STARK contrast between how "in full" harmony Christendom is, and how "in full" harmony Jehovah's Witnesses are. There is no comparison. Christendom is based on "the traditions of men" .

Let me know where you post it! :-)

Something I thought might be relevant since we are studying the God's Kingdom book. Not long ago, in a WT article, it was mentioned in reference to the "Kingdom being preached in all the inhabited earth" that this will not mean that literally everyone on Earth would have heard about the Kingdom before Armageddon starts. When one does a bit of mathematics (not my forte) and calculates the percentage of current Jehovah's Witnesses in comparison to the World's population we arrive at 0.1%. This is a very small percentage indeed. (8 million JW to 8 billion population) If we were to assume some averages, and use the United States as a fair example, then we can assume the ratio of 1 publisher to roughly around 400. This seems a fair number since "only a few are the ones finding the road to life". However, as we know, there is practically a non existent ratio when it comes to India and China, two of the world's countries with a population of over 1billion each (the majority of whom have never heard of the Bible, never mind Jehovah's Witnesses). If we would assume the same ratio of 1:400, then this would immediately create over 3 million Witnesses in each of the two countries, i.e. over 6 million in India and China alone, bringing the total of JWs to over 14 million. If we were to also add 650 thousand in Indonesia, 485 thousand from Pakistan, and 402 thousand from Bangladesh that adds another 1.5 million bringing the total to over 15 million, almost doubling the Witnesses today. If we go by the fact that all people are equal in Jehovah's eyes, and that no nation is above another when it comes to salvation, and that all people are basically the same, then we have to assume that there are people in those countries who, if given the chance, would embrace the truth and put themselves on Jehovah's side and create that ratio of 1:400. With that in mind, it is evident that either there is going to have to be a lot of preaching done, verging on the miraculous, in order to bring in over 7 million new Witnesses within the allotted time of the "Generation", or, Jehovah will judge their hearts and allow nearly HALF of the people, (agnostics or believers in false Gods) entry into the new world without them even needing to know him. Or, is "this Generation" a lot longer than we think..... Any scriptural thoughts?

There is no dishonesty. Russell got his ideas about the date from Barbour and soon after that parted ways with him and also scrapped the date. The important thing was that Russell discerned, as opposed to what Christendom taught, that Christ's presence would be invisible. There is no mention of the year 1874 in the booklet. Russell states "It is not my object in this pamphlet to call attention more fully to the TIME.......those interested in knowing the evidences as to the time I would refer to Dr. N H Barbour... (page 62. The object and manner of our Lords return). 1874 was Barbour's date.

" Would you not expect the teachings of a religious organization that claims to be the sole communication between God and mankind as the appointed faithful slave of Matthew 24:45 to be in full harmony with God's Word?" If this was the argument, used to identify the true religion then the true religion would have had to know ALL, right from the get go. This was impossible as Christianity had become so tainted with falsehoods, that it took time to sift through its teachings, comparing them with the Bible and then getting rid of stuff that wasn't Biblical. Knowledge is progressive. No JW ever claimed that they had a sudden flash of revelation and suddenly understood everything. It was down to good old hard work and study, and a desire to progressively find the Truth. We are still learning. So no, one should not expect the appointed slave to be fully in harmony with God's word, but we can expect them to be doing their best.

So...how would you keep the congregations spiritually and morally clean Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης? Taking into consideration how Jesus viewed congregations who were lacking in this regard: " ‘Nevertheless, I have a few things against you, that you have there those adhering to the teaching of Baʹlaam, who taught Baʹlak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit sexual immorality. In the same way, you also have those adhering to the teaching of the sect of Nic·o·laʹus.So repent. If you do not, I am coming to you quickly, and I will war against them with the long sword of my mouth". How do you imagine the Congregations of our time would look if "those who are sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, men who practice homosexuality,thieves, greedy people, drunkards, revilers, and extortioners" were tolerated?? P.S. No one was ever disfellowshipped for organ transplants. The Greek brother who left to have an organ transplant, was he disfellowshipped?

Those who no longer want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses are free to leave, any time. They will not, and never have been shunned. Jehovah's Witnesses who practice sin, and are not repentant, or those who deliberately and maliciously disrupt the peace of the congregation will be disfellowshipped and as such will be shunned by the members of the congregation. Disfellowshipping does not have to be a permanent status.Those who show a repentant attitude and "works" of repentance will be welcomed back. The fact that this lady had been disfellowshipped for 20 years, from what I understand, means she never sought reistatement during those 20 years (!) I ask myself why?? "especially that she truly believed in God and that the organization (JW) is his tool".