Anna

Thank you for putting my thoughts into words

Note the 'Russia Legal Update' at JW.org. Note the restraint and respect our people show toward government, even when treated abominably. No one is called a thug. A good example to imitate in lands where people are routinely abusive over less provocation.
Note the resolve of our people to be poured out in full, if need be, as first-century Christians were, as Paul was, as Jesus was. Pray for them and for us, that we may be so firm should our time come.
Some, hearing of Russian #persecution, are exuberant, others supportive. It's a good example of dividing into sheep or goats, foretold at Matthew 25.
 
 
Tom Irregardless and Me.  30% free preview 
 
 
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This is a sad argument about the repercussions of the indefensible and despicable behaviour of people who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses.
The monetary and reputational sanctions against all who are associated with the organisation is an additionally sad outcome for the extraordinary naivety displayed by all participants in this disgraceful scenario.
Hopefully, instructions like this:
and this:
"In all cases, the victim and her parents have the absolute right to report an allegation to the authorities.—Galatians 6:5."
and this: 
"If any congregation elder learns of a case of child abuse in which a child may still be at risk of significant harm two elders must contact the Legal Department at the branch office for legal advice on compliance. A report to the police or other appropriate authorities will be made immediately by the congregation elders if it is determined that a child is still at risk."
will be the start of a worldwide trend rather than an exception. (It is noteworthy that this policy is available to all members of the congregations in UK wishing to see it.).
The outcome of action as instructed will have serious impact, especially where allegations are involved, but (in my opinion) this will be just recompense for any engaging in questionable conduct of this nature, and similarly for those who even skate close to the boundaries of propriety in this regard.
Romans 13:3-4 can be be applied appropriately here.
This is a welcome move in the right direction despite the fact that methods to be applied for the appropriate determination of risk appear vague, and there is little on supporting victims. However, the UK branch of Jehovah's Witnesses appears to be less encumbered in this area than than the current UK Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse:   http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201617/cmselect/cmhaff/636/636.pdf
The outcome of the Australian Royal Commission deliberations scheduled to start in March 2017 will be of great interest.
This debate continues.....sadly. 

I can tell already that the point I was making is going to be mostly lost. But it doesn't matter that much because my point really was unnecessarily negative, and now wasn't the right time to bring it up.
But thanks for catching on to the basic point. I'll use your comments as an excuse to go ahead and explain my reaction to the CNN article. There were about half-a-dozen points that crossed my mind.
This news story was not included to create a topic for a specific set of religious beliefs. It's in a general news section. In my response, therefore, I didn't mention the other verses specifically because I thought they could be viewed negatively, but because they might have just as well been seen as more appropriate, and sometimes even more important to the circumstances. There was obviously nothing wrong with the other verses I pointed out, and a good, appropriate sermon could have been made on those verses, too. Every part of the open Bible could have been used to bring comfort in the storm, or a reminder of Jehovah's might. The verse chosen was perhaps the easiest one to work with.  The story also reminded me of the joke that goes something like: "A man went and said 'I'll open the bible to a random verse and use it to guide my life. He opened it and it said "and Judas went and hung himself" he opened it again and it said "go ye and do likewise." ' " It reminds me that the exact same type of story gains traction when steel beams fall, and create the shape of a cross as they did in famous photos taken from the World Trade Center disaster. It also reminded me of the fact that sometimes there are deadly storms or airplane crashes, and many other man-made or natural disasters where many people die, and often one person, perhaps an infant, or photogenic child, will survive. The news often picks up on these stories and highlights the angle (through comments and interviews) that there must have been something special about that particular survivor, and God must have something in mind for them. Perhaps these stories work very positively for 99% of listeners, but another 1% are made to wonder if there is a certain hypocrisy in focusing on the "value" of the life of the survivor that, in effect, dismisses the "value" of those whose lives were horribly and violently ripped away. For some sincere believers, it even creates a false dichotomy about Satan being allowed to do a lot of bad, while God was able to intervene to do some good. It's a faith-strengthener for some, but a problem for others, because it's built on a false premise: Jesus apparently dealt with the problem that disasters were often surrounded by superstitious beliefs even when the disaster was actually random: (Luke 13:4) . . .Or those 18 on whom the tower in Si·loʹam fell, killing them—do you think that they had greater guilt than all other men who live in Jerusalem?
Superstitious beliefs affected the view of every form of human suffering: (John 9:1-3) . . .As he was passing along, he saw a man who had been blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him: “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, so that he was born blind?” 3 Jesus answered: “Neither this man sinned nor his parents, . . .
Superstition is commonly utilized to explain coincidence, and if the subject is positive and upbuilding, we accept it as true and spiritual instead of superstition. The problem is that if the same superstition were used to explain negative coincidences, then the same type of thinking would be seen as "magical" or even "demonic." The existence of a very positive coincidence without superstition is actually difficult for us because we want to make sense of the world and believe that Jehovah is directly involved in all the good things of our material life, and this might require that we blame Satan for all the bad things of our material life. There is a depth of wisdom in Ecclesiastes that surpasses superstition, even though it does not discount the idea that Jehovah is still in full control of the universe:
(Ecclesiastes 9:11, 12) . . .I returned to see under the sun that the swift do not have the race, nor the mighty ones the battle, nor do the wise also have the food, nor do the understanding ones also have the riches, nor do even those having knowledge have the favor; because time and unforeseen occurrence befall them all. 12 For man also does not know his time. Just like fishes that are being taken in an evil net, and like birds that are being taken in a trap, so the sons of men themselves are being ensnared at a calamitous time, when it falls upon them suddenly.
Many religions with holy or sacred writings often have members who treat the writings with a kind of superstitious "bibliolatry" where the sacred books like the Quran or Bible, for example, are treated like a kind of Ouija board. The person closes their eyes and opens the book to some random point, lets their finger drop to a verse, then they open their eyes and try to make sense of the verse, usually out of context. It's the basis for the joke in point #2, above. This doesn't mean that it will lead to anything bad (as in the joke above), but it might also mean that we are depending on a kind of magical rather than rational thought process, which is related to idolatry. (Romans 12:1, 2) . . .present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. 2 And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God.
P.S.
*** w81 1/1 p. 22 par. 19 “Engaging in the Holy Work of the Good News” ***
“I asked the householder what motivated her to study the Bible with Jehovah’s Witnesses. She said that often she would open the Bible at random, point her finger at a verse and read it. But she seldom could understand what she read.
“One day she was very depressed over serious family problems. Again she opened her Bible and picked out a verse. She could not understand it, and in her depression and disappointment began to cry. She prayed to God to send her someone to help her understand his Word. Just as she said that, the doorbell rang. Answering it she found a Witness, who began, ‘Would you like to understand the Bible?’ The householder pulled her inside and quickly a regular study was begun.”
 

Anna, I think your question is a very valid one. Let me share with you this point: Antioch congregation and Peter.

Quoting partly (some comments and emphasis added) from *** w78 6/15 p. 7

“When Barnabas and Paul brought this letter [from Jerusalem, resolving the circumcision issue] back to Antioch, there was great rejoicing in the congregation. —Acts 15:3-31.

It may have been after this that Peter visited the Antioch congregation and freely associated with uncircumcised Gentile believers. But, then, when certain Jewish brothers came down from Jerusalem [perhaps, again, teaching about the obligation of circumcision -Acts 15:1 -], Peter withdrew from associating with Gentile converts and spent time exclusively with Jewish brothers. Even Barnabas got unbalanced and did the same thing. But all responded properly when Paul reproved Peter, making clear how wrong such a course was. —Gal. 2:11-14.  

Well, it was clear that these two prominent brothers err in their judgment seriously. What I’ve never heard is the fact, I believe, that perhaps this was not a matter of declining some invitations for lunch. Imagine you’re a gentile sister in the middle of that congregation. You feel so happy because have the chance to preach with so valuable brothers, Paul, Barnabas and, imagine, Peter is going to visit your congregation. More speeches, more opportunities to preach with, perhaps, the most famous of the apostles.

As soon Peter arrives you make arrangements to go to some visits with him, he agrees and you enjoy listen his conversation. Later, you also enjoy hearing him giving speeches in the “kingdom hall.” But as you know, as soon the jews brothers arrived, Peter began to ‘withdrew from associating WITH YOU.’ Next congregation meeting arrives and you can feel the tension. The apostle Peter takes the word and you start to hallucinate. He’s is trying to justify his actions, even with scriptural basis, as the brothers from Jerusalem did: (Acts 15:1) ‘began to teach the brothers: “Unless you get circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”’ Thank goodness Paul had the courage to resist him!

So far so good. I mean this is very known. But what happened 15 years later approx.? God inspires Peter to write his letters. Now theses letters arrive to Antioch y you are in the middle of the meeting, listening their reading. Now, you have two options.

1. How is supposed follow the advice in the letters from this man that everyone in the congregation knows committed a manifest judgment error? How is it possible God continues to use him?

2. Well, Jehovah has forgiven him. So, the same should I do.

I’m not sure if you’ll find these comments meaningful. Nevertheless, it still remains an important point: Peter’s letters were inspired, GB not. But, for now, my time is running out, I’ll try later.

Most Witnesses obviously want to live peaceful Christian lives and conduct ourselves in a way that pleases Jehovah God and Jesus Christ. None of us really want the job of being responsible to take a specific position on all doctrinal matters and setting priorities for organizational direction in our overall global ministry. But we can be thankful that among Christians, there will always be a few that will take the lead in those heavy responsibilities.
The very desire to take the lead in such matters seems like an assignment that only someone who is very brave or very foolhardy would take. It seems that, from a worldly perspective, only the most haughty among us would reach out for such an important job. Yet, we know some of these brothers very well from either personal acquaintance, or perhaps they were Circuit and District Overseers in our congregations. Perhaps we worked alongside some of them in a Branch Office. We get to know their personalities from presentations, speeches, and broadcasts. We see them interact with each other at some events.
All in all, the majority of them seem to be good, God-fearing, humble men who want to do what is right, the same as the rest of us. We don't get the idea that any of them "schemed" to get to this position. We know that the guidelines for elders apply to them just as they apply to congregation elders. And it's my opinion, but I see a certain stability and faithfulness to worthy goals among all of them. 
Now it's easy to say good things about these men, and that's my point. When these men were mostly chosen only from a certain similar mold, there was not a large "pool" for these "gifts in men" to be chosen from. In the past, most had been chosen from a limited bureaucratic background. At the point when there were 17 GB members alive at the same time, most (but not all) had the ability to give a good talk, but at least half of them were seriously lacking in Biblical expertise, and at least half of them had very little experience even in the door-to-door field ministry for the last 40 years of their lives. We should not have been surprised that certain kinds of flaws showed up among these men so that several were dismissed, and a lot of politics and scheming was known to go on among those who remained.
But the current group, especially after the death of Theodore Jaracz, have been chosen from a much wider pool of candidates. These men have made more progress in the last 20 years than in the previous 100 years. They are managing a much bigger, and smoother operation, with millions and millions more persons in their care. Doctrinal changes over the last 20 years have been steady and clearly beneficial overall. The quality of the publications and the website has improved greatly. It's reach is enormous. 
I've already stated my opinion that the GB are not the equivalent of the "faithful slave" from a Biblical standpoint. But that's not the point of discussion here. These men, the GB, who have taken the lead for doctrinal and prioritized the organizational and ministerial direction have taken on an important and necessary assignment. They admit that they aren't perfect. Of course, that statement is meaningless, because such a statement almost always is used with the intention of meaning "perfect, for all practical purposes." But they don't leave it at that. They admit that they have made serious errors in doctrine and leadership. they admit that the spiritual food they produce and distribute is not always perfect.
So, with that said, I think one way of looking at the overall picture is to see these men in the position of keeping order. They take the lead at the "highest" level, not because they think that you must think that all these doctrines are perfect. They do it because it keeps order and harmony. They do it by taking a stand on certain doctrinal matters and setting organizational priorities. Sure, they may do some of this by majority vote, but ultimately they make choices. This is part of remaining organized in any organization and not falling into chaos. Going off in many directions is inefficient. Even trying a certain direction that proves untenable has a certain value if it's caught early enough, and there is humility to change.
Taking a stand means that we will sometimes discover we took the wrong stand, but it also has an advantage in making our beliefs transparent. If a doctrinal stand is taken, our thinking is clearer on it, and contradictions show up more easily. It would be easy to be 100% accurate by taking a less dogmatic stand on many things. But this makes it harder to test whether we are thinking correctly and reasonably on some of our beliefs.
I think that it could be like those logic puzzles, like they do for LSAT tests, where you get 5 to 10 clues, and have to figure out, for example, where everyone lives and what they do, what they drink, and the color of their house:
Bill is a plumber who drinks whiskey and lives in the green house that is next to a corner house. John is not a carpenter, and he drinks soda and lives in either a red or blue house that is two houses from Sally's house. etc. etc. etc. Sometimes you get to a point where you just need to take a stand and say that John must be in a blue house, for example, even if you don't know for sure, so that you can properly test if it works. (Actually, Sudoku was probably a better example, come to think of it.)
So, we can have doctrinal claims that are still in the middle of such testing. We took a stand, and it clarifies our position so that it can be more clearly tested. It can work for both trivial and important matters like: whether Moses wrote all of the first five books of the Bible himself, or whether Galatians was written prior to 1 Corinthians, or whether the "other sheep" are Gentiles or "spiritual Gentiles."
If we (as an organization) take a stand, it should be faster to get to a point where we can take a consistent stand on all important matters of doctrine and teaching. This assumes that haughtiness and love of tradition don't get in the way of change. And that gets back to having the right kinds of personalities taking the lead.

It was also opened to the chapter that contains:
(Psalm 50:3, 4) . . .Our God will come and cannot remain silent. Before him is a consuming fire, And a great storm rages all around him.  4 He summons the heavens above and the earth, So as to judge his people: These other verses were also on the page:
(Psalm 45:5) 5 Your arrows are sharp, making peoples fall before you. . . (Psalm 48:7) . . .With an east wind you wreck the ships of Tarʹshish. (Psalm 49:10-14) . . .He sees that even wise people die; The stupid and the unreasoning perish together, And they must leave their wealth to others. 11 Their inner wish is that their houses will last forever, Their tents to generation after generation. They have named their estates after themselves. 12 But man, although honored, will not remain; He is no better than the beasts that perish. 13 This is the way of the stupid ones And of those who follow them, who take pleasure in their empty words. (Selah) 14 They are assigned like sheep to the Grave. Death will shepherd them; The upright will rule over them in the morning. Every trace of them will fade away; The Grave rather than a palace will be their home.  
Just sayin'
 

I am not sure if this prophesy has been orphaned. Is it possible that it can still be applied to our new understanding?
The exile to Babylon was because of a punishment from Jehovah because of the Jews rebellion and unfaithfulness. In the secondary application it was also a punishment from Jehovah because of the beginnings of unfaithfulness (apostasy) in 2nd Century C.E . The wild beast that kills the Witnesses in Revelation is not a punishment from Jehovah. On the contrary, it is an attack from Jehovah's opposer because the Witnesses were doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes. So I don't think the explanation in  WT 2014/ 11/15 P. 30 is at odds with our refined understanding of the Babylonian exile and of the dry bones. It seems to refer to the short period of when the brothers were thrown into prison/symbolically killed between 1914 and 1919. I do not think it necessarily has a future application, although when the great tribulation comes the Witnesses will be attacked, but not killed, (even symbolically) because before that happens, Jehovah will step in. (Matt 24:22, Rev 7:14)
"....the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.
At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.
However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days.—Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12."
 
P.S. For those who want a refresher about the refined understanding of captivity to Babylon:
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbam_201510_3_VIDEO
 

Allen,
You have made a lot of good points. In fact, there are no points made in any of the evidence you quoted from that I disagree with. I still agree with every one of your sources.
I think the problem is that we have come at this issue with a different understanding of what it means to be "influenced." I notice that you keep going back to questions about whether Rutherford had a positive influence on the NOI, and you have spent a lot of time showing that the NOI is very different from the Watch Tower Society and perhaps not even worthy of any influence by the Watchtower. I still agree on those points too.
I'm guessing that you have thought about this idea of "influence" and are thinking of the perspective that if there is nothing of any socially redeeming value in the NOI, then there must be no evidence that it was influenced by something good. I understand your perspective.
I think you have also wanted to make the point that if I am claiming that there was some level of influence on the NOI from the teachings of Rutherford, that this somehow reflects badly on Rutherford or the Watch Tower Society. I didn't understand this, but I'm thinking that it must be based on the corollary of the idea just stated. It must have sounded like I was saying that if something that is so "totally bad" (like the NOI) was influenced by the Watch Tower Society, then it's like saying that the WTS influenced something to be "bad." I don't believe the WTS produced any kind of bad or negative influence -- AND I don't think that what I am calling influence produced anything positive in the NOI. The only possible, potential advantage I mentioned was that any familiarity with Rutherford's teachings might have made the transition just a little easier if anyone would have later decided to convert from NOI to JW.
In fact, my reason for bringing up this idea in the first place was to support something you had said earlier about the variety of beliefs within the supposed "umbrella" of the Bible Students. In fact, I have always agreed with you on this point: that there was no actual "umbrella" that defined all groups of Bible Students. You mentioned the Bangalore Bible Students, and I thought you might also be aware of some of their differences, and that there were dozens of Bible Student groups that would draw crowds and congregations after themselves in many countries around the world. There were several who had associated with Bible students, and then made themselves "prophets" or claimed to be the fulfillment of some prophetic Bible character as a modern-day "antitype." Some used a small part of the original Bible Student message that they had picked up from Russell and then created something quite strange and almost unrecognizable from it.
In fact, you can still go back to the topic where this came up and see that I was supporting something you, Allen, had recently presented.  http://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/28202-what-does-it-mean-with-the-april-2017-study-edition-of-the-wt-are-all-who-wereare-baptized-still-bound-to-this-vow/ The following is an exact quote from that topic, although below I highlighted the sentence where I had mentioned you.
The idea that the NOI had been "influenced" was just mentioned as an extreme example of how some of the Watch Tower Society's teachings have been misused. Apparently you might have agreed with the idea had I worded it a little differently. Perhaps you have a better idea how to word it in a way that supports the point you had made in previous posts.
 

I am not sure if this prophesy has been orphaned. Is it possible that it can still be applied to our new understanding?
The exile to Babylon was because of a punishment from Jehovah because of the Jews rebellion and unfaithfulness. In the secondary application it was also a punishment from Jehovah because of the beginnings of unfaithfulness (apostasy) in 2nd Century C.E . The wild beast that kills the Witnesses in Revelation is not a punishment from Jehovah. On the contrary, it is an attack from Jehovah's opposer because the Witnesses were doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes. So I don't think the explanation in  WT 2014/ 11/15 P. 30 is at odds with our refined understanding of the Babylonian exile and of the dry bones. It seems to refer to the short period of when the brothers were thrown into prison/symbolically killed between 1914 and 1919. I do not think it necessarily has a future application, although when the great tribulation comes the Witnesses will be attacked, but not killed, (even symbolically) because before that happens, Jehovah will step in. (Matt 24:22, Rev 7:14)
"....the account refers to God’s anointed ones who took the lead during a difficult time of testing. So in the fulfillment of Revelation chapter 11, the anointed brothers who took the lead at the time of the establishment of God’s Kingdom in heaven in 1914 preached “in sackcloth” for three and a half years.
At the end of their preaching in sackcloth, these anointed ones were symbolically killed when they were thrown into prison for a comparatively shorter period of time, a symbolic three and a half days. In the eyes of the enemies of God’s people, their work had been killed, causing those opponents much joy.—Rev. 11:8-10.
However, true to the words of the prophecy, at the end of the three and a half days, the two witnesses were brought back to life. Not only were these anointed ones released from prison but those who remained faithful received a special appointment from God through their Lord, Jesus Christ. In 1919 they were among those who were appointed to serve as a “faithful and discreet slave” to care for the spiritual needs of God’s people during the last days.—Matt. 24:45-47; Rev. 11:11, 12."
 
P.S. For those who want a refresher about the refined understanding of captivity to Babylon:
https://tv.jw.org/#en/video/VODProgramsEvents/pub-jwbam_201510_3_VIDEO
 

I could not agree more.
I just wish to point out the main reason why I posted these commentaries:
To support the idea we should appreciate the 'slave' teaching in spite the fact this teaching contains errors.
The basis, in this post about "zero to the Corinthians" was:
The the apostles, as you propperly describes, wrote others NOT INSPIRED writings. But in spite of this fact these writings should have been useful and beneficial. We can not imagine the brothers receiving these letters and saying: "well, these aren't inspired... perhaps they contain some errors, let's read another stuff." Sure they read all these NOT INSPIRED letters eagerly.
And, finally, Jehovah, in his providence, moved matters so that only what we would need in the future were included in the Bible canon
Not quite sure if my goal was achieved.
Thanks, John, for your quote.
 

In answer to Anna question:
The reasons were well explained by brother Lett in 2015 October meeting. He, sincerely mentioned at the beginning of his talk that thought God’s spirit guided them to the new conclusions about the falling in Babylonian hands and getting out from her. And I think so.
I remember feeling very happy when I heard his comments, because finally God has shown to the brothers on charge the discernment regarding this matter. Well, this is only half of the way, but half is more than nothing, it only remains the other half.
Let me start with this words from Jesus, I include two records about the same situation and some emphasis:
(Mark 9:31, 32) “For he was teaching his disciples and telling them: “The Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands, and they will kill him, but despite being killed, he will rise three days later.” 32 However, they did not understand his statement, and they were afraid to question him.”
(Luke 9:44, 45) “Listen carefully and remember these words, for the Son of man is going to be betrayed into men’s hands.” 45 But they did not understand what he was saying. In fact, it was concealed from them so that they might not grasp it, and they were afraid to question him about this saying.”
Now one example: if someone says to you: ‘one person is going to punch me; and then I will die, and finally I will be buried.’ What word would not you understand? Then what was wrong with the apostles? Why was so difficult to understand these simple statements? Their fears. The fears not looking at themselves in thrones with his admired Messiah. Too much for them. This TRUTH was concealed to them.
Accordingly, regarding our days. We, God’s people firmly believe we are living in a wonderful spiritual paradise. We will continue preaching till the end (Mt24:14). The only bad thing waiting for us (not the rest of the world) is Gog the Magog attack but, Jehovah will rescue us. So, no fears!
If some POSSIBLE application of prophetic verses could be understood as some future failure as people, worthy of punishment, discipline… well, this is too much. This application is, simply, remote, if not impossible.
Half of the way in the correct direction
Listening to brother Lett in the aforementioned meeting make me happy because one of our beliefs was difficult to understand to me: the dead condition of our work in 1918, the situation as a dry-bones valley on these years.
Once, reading one biography stroked me the sister relating her life because in that period of time mention she attended a convention. I thought “what, our work was paralyzed.” And I began to investigate. And I found odd (for our former focus) facts:
(Now, I’m paraphrasing from the Spanish translation of the 1969 book “Then is finished the mystery of God”, because I have no way to have it in English and perhaps some phrases or page numbers are different in the actual English book)
fm-S pg. 299-302
·        Watch Tower magazine continued to be published semimonthly without interruption. ·        Despite partly records, 17,961 persons partaken of the emblems. ·        In USA, they were 15 traveling speakers, pilgrims. ·        Also, they were 225 colporteurs. ·        Were celebrated more than 40 conventions. How could be it possible if our work was dead, with dry bones? Yes, perhaps injured, slowed, but not stopped at all, according these and another data spread in different publications.  So, we have now a better understanding of these matters and the way they are related to several prophecies.
But, I don’t remember if in this talk of brother Lett or from another brother, I heard this logical statement. “If we move one meaning, it also moves another connected meanings.” Obviously.
Let’s take for example this, presently, orphan prophecy:
·        (Revelation 11:7, 8) “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sod′om and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.”
Till now (2015), these words fit very well with our former view. Our work was deceased in 1918, our organization was a dry-bones valley. But according our new comprehension about the facts on those years this is impossible. This is one of many, and I mean many other related prophecies that now are ‘orphans.’
Do you think I am thinking of myself as a prophet? Well, according one friend of me, yes, I am a false prophet. I don’t feel very happy thinking these prophecies could have a future fulfillment, I prefer to be wrong. Think I, perhaps, I’m a bright boy, more intelligent or blessed than the brothers God are using to teach us? Never, at no time. Then, why years before brother Lett gives these speech, one not cultivated person, not very intelligent not bright at all, could reach to the same conclusions years after "become truth"? For the same reasons any of us reading and thinking could reach to them.
 
 
This piece doesn’t belong to this machine!
 
Have you ever deal with a mechanism hard to assemble? Perhaps you try one way, then the opposite, and get frustrated because any way you try always remains spare parts, pieces left. But, as you don’t give up, finally relies one part doesn’t belong to the mechanism you’re trying to assemble. It was disturbing all the work. Finally, every piece fits perfectly.
We, the JW, also -I sincerely think so- have one piece deeply disturbing our vision about all. All our eschatology revolves, pivots around it. The day this part would remain outside the picture everything will be brightly clear. Sure you know what I’m referring.
Am I teaching these ideas I sincerely believe to the brothers? Not at all, for the next reasons.
·        Loyalty to God’s servants on charge of this enormous responsibility. ·        It’s perfectly possible I will be wrong, why then insists on the matter? ·        This behavior would lead to disunion ·        In reality, Jesus is on charge. If something is wrong with us, let the Master correct the situation, not me! And, as I mentioned in my previous post originated your question,
·        I belong to this people, and whatever happens to Jehovah’s people will also happen to me. With affection!

Holly, as I have explained several times now, investigation of Bible truths is similar to investigation of the physical heavens or the human cell or a jillion other matters. Progression in understanding is the natural normal way for things to go.  There may be the occasional misunderstanding, but the path is generally positive, and upward.  Quibbling about whether new information conflicts with the older, to what extent, and whether or not that would violate Russell's maxim, "new light never extinguishes older light," has little value.   It does seem obvious however that Russell was likely speaking about basic, well-established truths and not looks at things that may need need further clarification.  In physics, math, and astronomy for instance, there are well established truths such as Newton's Laws and Archimedes' Principle.  But that doesn't mean that nothing new can be learned and that adjustments can't be made where needed.   
Then too, as was written in the Revelation Climax book:
"It is not claimed that the explanations in this publication are infallible. Like Joseph of old, we say: “Do not interpretations belong to God?” (Genesis 40:8) At the same time, however, we firmly believe that the explanations set forth herein harmonize with the Bible in its entirety, showing how remarkably divine prophecy has been fulfilled in the world events of our catastrophic times."
I'm certain Russell would agree that what he wrote was not infallible, don't you?  
Look, in the 1920's, 1930's, 1940;s, 1950's and so on, Astronomy was taught to students.  There were tests to be taken and answers had to be given according to the progress in knowledge up to that point in time.  In the 1920's the answers given on tests might have resulted in a high score.  But those same answers might have resulted in a much lower grade in 2016.  That's how things work.  Progress.  An increase in light or knowledge.  I don't think we can define exactly just to what extent Jehovah points the way or to what extent we grope in the direction he gives, but no matter.  He remains the Father of Light and we do well to progress in understanding.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   

How can you miss the point of the illustration HollyW?  It is simple, practical, reasonable, and follows other disciplines wherein one attempts to understand a thing in a logical progressive way.  Nor is there any conflict with God being a person of Light, without darkness, as I have already explained. Jehovah doesn't just spoon feed those who want to serve him.  He has given them incredible brains and reasoning abilities and allows them to pursue the truth rather than just forcing it down their throats.  Along the way, those who are humble can grow in understanding by admitting that they may have been off a bit initially and are willing to adjust to what has become clearer.  Again, this is the clear advantage that Jehovah's Witnesses have other many other religions.
Your view of Russell/Rutherford change in views was covered in the illustration wherein one tries to discern what the seedling 30 yards away was.  One might not understand initially just what sort of plant that is.  One might get the wrong idea and have to change one's view in light of new information.  That could even happen several times.  But eventually the evidence starts to mount and conclusions become more solid.  This is common sense.
If your point is that the light must be increasing in a strictly linear fashion, then I would suggest you take a step back and view the forest before you view the trees.  Views on things like who the superior authorities are went back and forth for a time.  So what? Eventually that became clear, and if one can step back, one can see the general slope favoring a positive, clearer direction of understanding overall.  Again, this is simple reasoning.  As one grows in knowledge, insight, and understanding older ideas that may have missed the mark are discarded, just as they are in the scientific community, and the truth becomes ever clearer. 
(Note: You said: "You illustrated something being seen in the darkness.  1 John 1:5 shows that this could not be from God because in Him there is no darkness at all."
That is correct.  The darkness referred to the major misunderstandings that Christendom still promotes today, and out of which Jehovah's people came via a generally progressive and positive beam of light)
 
Holley, here is where one can get into trouble.  That is by holding people to standards that are unreasonable and that reflect a strictly "black and white only" point of view. 
Someone says "progressive light" and you focus on the definition of "progressive" instead of the incredible advances of knowledge.  See the point?
Become humble in your understanding.  Open your mind and you will be much more likely to find you way.
 
 
 
 

>"I know you probably worked hard on your illustration, but it seems to me to be out of harmony with what the Bible reveals at 1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. "
I"m sure you worked hard on your response as well, but I fail to see how my illustration conflicts with John 1:5.  You gave no explanation. What is true however is that though we may progress in our understand of the scriptures, that in no way conflicts with the fact that God is Light and in him there is no darkness.  I fail to see any connection between those facts and the fact that we try to progress in our understand of the scriptures.   
The same would be true as regards James 1:17 ( Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow. ).  You seem to be trying to say that since Jehovah gives perfect gifts and good things means that our attempts at understanding the scriptures must be perfect from day 1, but that doesn't make logical sense nor does it harmonize with other scriptures.  Need I list scriptures wherein Biblical characters grew in knowledge?
And you misunderstand Russell.  He did said, "any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth."  But he was speaking about truth and not about the attempts at understanding it.
Further, you misinterpret my illustration.  It simply shows that what may appear to be one thing in the darkness, may prove to be something else entirely in the light and upon a closer examination.
Moreover, does it really makes sense to you that Jehovah would "speak from the heavens", so to speak, on every little point?  Is that how you see him, as a micro-manager being sure that every single nuance of every single act at understanding the scriptures is rigorously correct at every point in time?  
Or is he not a God who let's folks grope for him and search for him.  Isn't he in fact a God who reveals things progressively, Jesus stating that there were certain things that the disciples were "not able to bear" at a certain point in time.
Doesn't progressive understanding make much more sense?  If pertinent, it would perhaps be wise to not allow pride to get in the way of logic and reasonableness.
 
 

My Dad used to take me deer hunting when I was a teenager.  We'd go out when it was dark and be in a deer stand in a tree as the light began to come up.  At first you could make out precious little, but as the light slowly intensified, the tree stump that may have initially looked like a sleeping bear, became more easily identifiable.  Once the morning had broken, much more became clear.  Now if someone had asked me at that point if I felt I was required to believe that what I had thought was a bear really was a tree stump, the question would make no sense.  Of course, it was a tree stump.  Why would someone ask a person was required to believe it was tree stump when that was so obviously clear?
But what about the seedling that was growing out of the ground 30 yards away?  Well, at first, that was not even visible when  there was little light.  But then at mid-morning, one could see the seedling, but still it was unclear exactly what it was.  Likely a relative of a nearby plant or tree.  But upon returning to the sight a while later and doing some in research into the leaf shape, etc, we might come to some pretty good conclusions.  But even then, the passage of time made the identification more discernible. 
Of course, in some situations, identification of the plant could have been mistaken or need to be altered if one realized that there could have been a slight error at the initial or subsequent examinations.  
Likewise, JW's understanding of the scriptures continues to grow and mature.
This is one of the great advantage that Jehovah's Witnesses have over most other religions.  It is their willingness to change or adjust based on new insights or investigations.  That is in fact how science works (or at  least is supposed to).  How silly it would be to be required to, for instance, be bound to the beliefs astronomers had back in the 1900's.  As Hubble peers into space and other bits and pieces of information are discerned, our knowledge of the stars and space grows.  Likewise with the scriptures.  
The question as to whether we are required to believe the new insights might be best rephrased, "Does one want to progress in knowledge or not?"
By way of contrast, it is most apparent that most churches are mired in the doctrine of the third - sixth centuries. They cling to, for instance, the Athanasian Creed.  It's as if they are required to believe that the tree stump is really a bear!
Now as to which camp one chooses to belong, that is a choice for each individual.  But as for me and my household, we choose continual progress.
 
   
 

I understand many of the things you mentioned, and many of them have been discussed on here. I also understand what you mean about there being no niche where you can feel safe to discuss your thoughts. This is why it's nice to be able to go on here. What I would like to ask you is what makes you think that Jehovah might need to punish the Witnesses. Is there a specific reason (reasons) to lead you to this conclusion? I know you have already alluded to a few, but could you be even more specific?
By the way your English is fine!

Anna, I have no time at this moment and the answer is worth to elaborate a little!

This is why I really love the sentiments of this quote a father once said to his daughter (It was in one of the WT)
"Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your life time, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

In the past months, there have been quite a few study articles with regard to the GB/Slave. I am trying to get an overall  understanding of 2 particular WT articles on this one topic, so that two quotes from the WTs harmonize. 
Today's WT study (Nov 2016) p.15 par.9:  "Some may feel that they can interpret the Bible on their own. However, Jesus has appointed the ‘faithful slave’ to be the only channel for dispensing spiritual food. Since 1919, the glorified Jesus Christ has been using that slave to help his followers understand God’s own Book and heed its directives.’"
And
WT Feb.2017 p.26. par.12 " The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err in doctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870".
It seems that the key to making sense of these 2 seemingly opposing quotes is in the above paragraph if we continue reading: " Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food".

I don't want to ruin the "game" if anyone else wants to play, but this has long been my favorite kind of "puzzle."
The prior verse is a very popular one, but it's very puzzling here because there are so many letters missing on the partial line on the right and it's sometimes more difficult based on the fact that the words that start at the beginning of the column often start in the middle of a word.
For example: EUSOMETHA (Which looks more like "EYCOMEθA") on the top line must be only part of a word, since several words end that way, but it's not a real word on its own here. The second picture says it's really "PEYSOMEθA"  (the C is actually S). Since the P is the way the Greek language makes an "R" then this word ends in ". . . reusometha." The most common word here would be "poreusometha" (πορευσόμεθα) which is a verb meaning to proceed, go, depart, walk, etc. The root of this verb will contain poreu- but it can have literally FIFTY different endings. This particular ending will make it 1st person, plural, middle voice, and either Future or Aorist. So we could bet that the word would be translated "we [1st pers, plural] will/shall [future] walk." If not, "we will walk" or "we shall be walking" or we could try "we shall go" or  "we will go" or "we will proceed" etc, and this would also narrow down the location.
A very similar puzzle shows up in the next line which is also the verse prior to the verse with the divine name. It's the word that looks like "..HKOAMEN" or based on the tiny piece of the previous letter, either "...MHKOAMEN" "...LHKOAMEN" or "...KHKOAMEN." The first two choices don't make much sense, but if it's "..KHKOAMEN" then this is surely part of the word "AKHKOAMEN." Since the H is the long E, and the E is the short E, this is the word "akekoamen" which is a form of "to hear" or "understand" or "hear a report" etc. The particular form of the verb is 1st person, plural again, but this time it's not in the future tense, but in a "perfect active indicative." This means that the action of "hearing" has already been completed and the verb indicates the result of this, such as "we have heard" or "we heard."
 

You are right in many respects and this is why it is good to get into the habit of reading around a particular scripture, (the whole chapter usually) especially with scriptures which are "popular" and used over and over again and "usually" applied one way, or the way we are used to. In my opinion this is what it means to be a deep Bible student.

This is why I really love the sentiments of this quote a father once said to his daughter (It was in one of the WT)
"Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your life time, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"

This is my question: what photo bellow best represents the meaning of Pro 4:18, "A" or "B"?

A)   Oh, no, this picture doesn't represent our normal use of Pro. 4:18. This, apparently, better fits with Eph. 4:24 and the new personality transformation.

B) This is, with total security, our quickest choice! The photo represents the gradual increase in knowledge about the God's purposes and his word.

But, this is my question. What is in first and foremost place the real meaning of this Proverb?

The background in our literature.

There is a lot of "back" in the timeline. This is the first reference I've found in our publications in the use of Pro.4:18

Zion’s Watch Tower, July 1879, article "ON INTERPRETATION" page 25, right column, 2nd paragraph

Follows part of the article, bold letters are mine======================================

"The path of the just is a shining light that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Pro. iv. 18. Many do not understand how the Bible could be so written as to remain dark for a time, and then gradually unfold its truth as a burning lump..."

End of quotation=================================================

And, going to the other side, one of the most recent utilization. And please, observe the emphasis added (not in the original) for a later explanation.

*** w11 7/15 pp. 29-30 par. 7 God’s Rest—Have You Entered Into It? ***

Follows part of the article======================================

7 Many of us can quote Proverbs 4:18 from memory: “The path of the righteous ones is like the bright light that is getting lighter and lighter until the day is firmly established.” That means that our conduct and our understanding of God’s purposes will improve over time.

End of quotation=================================================

 

The Bible Context

Well, according the same article I quoted in other post -http://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/28423-the-spotlight-effect-and-the-extended-applications/#comment-36450 - (w91 8/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers) Proverbs 4:18 is also “part of a group of verses”, and this fact sheds much light about our quest.

Follows part of Pro. 4:10-27:

Listen, my son, and accept my sayings,

And the years of your life will be many.

11 I will instruct you in the way of wisdom;

I will lead you in the tracks of uprightness.

12 When you walk, your steps will not be hindered;

And if you run, you will not stumble.

[…]

14 Do not enter the path of the wicked,

And do not walk in the way of evil men.

15 Shun it, do not take it;

Turn away from it, and pass it by.

[…]

17 They feed themselves with the bread of wickedness,

And they drink the wine of violence.

18 But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light

That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight.

19 The way of the wicked is like the darkness;

They do not know what makes them stumble.

[…]

25 Your eyes should look straight ahead,

Yes, fix your gaze straight ahead of you.

26 Smooth out the course of your feet,

And all your ways will be sure.

27 Do not incline to the right or the left.

Turn your feet away from what is bad.

 
Didn’t you easily perceive the same train on thought? A father given counsel to his son about the ways, the paths to avoid and the tracks, the steps to follow. And, regarding our verse under scrutiny, it emerges the same idea that in the rest of the context, as would be expected. The father (Jehovah/Solomon) is saying to his son (ourselves) If you choose the bad way, your life would convert in a dark experience but, if you follow my advices, your path, life, track, way… each day will be brighter and brighter.

The Basic meaning, in its own context

It is the reason I’ve emphasized the quote in the Watchtower above (w11 7/15 pp. 29-30): “That means that our conduct and our understanding of God’s purposes will improve over time.” Have you noticed the “our conduct … will improve”? This is the basic and real meaning of the verse. And this idea is what I’ve tried to represent with my picture “B”. A man whose life is a complete disaster, who lives in darkness, as he learns the truth and makes changes in his behavior, his way, path, tracks gets more and more brighter.

(Digression. I suppose JW Insider as a former graphic designer will smile sympathetic seeing my ‘art’)

The problems with the explanation in the Watchtower article I’ve just quoted are, in my opinion, two. First, how is supposed the readers of the magazine, mainly JW, could grasp the basic idea of the verse, when during more than a century, once and again, hundreds of times, and also in the same sentence occurs the extended application, “gradual improve in knowledge of God’s purposes”. Second: Why on earth is the basis for this extended application? I think, quoting brother Splane in 2015 October meeting, this is another of our cherished verses, with its concomitant extended explanation.

Alternatives

Are there any alternatives without this stretching of the context? Let me share two that show the gradualness of our understanding of the Bible and the chance to make mistakes.

First, Daniel (11 and 12).

(Daniel 11:33) “And those having insight among the people will impart understanding to the many” (Daniel 12:4) “Many will rove about, and the true knowledge will become abundant.”

First, we noticed there is a people (not persons at home reading and interpreting the scriptures). Secondly, there are a group with more insight, and, consequently, have the capacity to teach the people. Finally, the mechanism, the gradualness: will rove about to obtain the true knowledge.

Regarding this last idea, I wish to include some quotes from scholars (http://biblehub.com/commentaries/daniel/12-4.htm). The emphases are mine.

Benson Commentary:

Many shall run to and fro — Many shall diligently search into these prophecies, and make use of all the means in their power to arrive at a true knowledge of them; shall improve all opportunities of getting their mistakes rectified, their doubts resolved, and their acquaintance with divine things in general, and with these and the other prophecies of God’s word in particular, improved and perfected.

Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

run to and fro—not referring to the modern rapidity of locomotion, as some think, nor to Christian missionaries going about to preach the Gospel to the world at large [Barnes], which the context scarcely admits; but, whereas now but few care for this prophecy of God, "at the time of the end," that is, near its fulfilment, "many shall run to and fro," that is, scrutinize it, running through every page. Compare Hab 2:2 [Calvin]: it is thereby that "the knowledge (namely, of God's purposes as revealed in prophecy) shall be increased." This is probably being now fulfilled.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible

many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased; that is, towards the end of the time appointed, many persons will be stirred up to inquire into these things delivered in this book, and will spare no pains or cost to get knowledge of them; will read and study the Scriptures, and meditate on them; compare one passage with another; spiritual things with spiritual, in order to obtain the mind of Christ; will peruse carefully the writings of such who have gone before them, who have attempted anything of this kind; and will go far and near to converse with persons that have any understanding of such things: and by such means, with the blessing of God upon them, the knowledge of this book of prophecy will be increased; and things will appear plainer the nearer the accomplishment of them is;

Conclusions about Daniel 11 and 12

“To rove about.” Not going straight. To go ahead, then back, to left, to right. Did the angel tell to Daniel that, in the last days, new revelations from heaven will occur? No. Perhaps some angelical visit? Neither. Instead, it would be a process of trial and error, because to study implies learning, make changes to correct errors. What would be, in short, according Daniel 11 and 12, the way those persons with more “insight” will teach others? Trying, these with more insight, to understand better what to teach. And from these expressions the only conclusion is to accept the necessity of changes and improvements. And the same idea seems that the commentators above quoted agree.

Secondly, Paul’s example.

Paul is credited “of receiving such extraordinary revelations.” (2Cor.12:7). But he himself, in the days of miraculous powers, what recognize about his understanding of the God’s purposes?

Emphasis and comments added. (1 Corinthians 13:9-12) “For we [me also] have partial knowledge and we prophesy [or, teach] partially, 10 but when what is complete comes, what is partial will be done away with. 11 When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, to think as a child, to reason as a child [I make mistakes as a child]; but now that I have become a man, I have done away with the traits of a child. 12 For now we see in hazy outline [not clear] by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face-to-face. At present [despite my revelations] I know partially, but then I will know accurately [when in front, face-to-face to God]”

Accordingly, it-1 p. 801 says “Comparing the understanding of God’s purpose had by the early Christian congregation with the fuller understanding to be had upon receiving their heavenly reward, and then coming to comprehend the divine purpose in its entirety as prophecy is fulfilled, the apostle Paul said: “For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face”

Well, the apostle, humbly, recognizes that only when face-to-face to God is when everything would become crystal clear. Why ourselves were going to be more than him? Why to expect from the steward class (Lu.12:42) more than Paul? Grant the brothers on charge of teaching to the brotherhood the same “partial” knowledge than Paul, until they, with Paul, go to heaven.

Thank you Melisa for your kind words. I fully agree with you, and I aslo enjoy reading Anna and JWI posts!
I've also post a new "extended application" verse here. I'd also like your comments. Greetings, my sister!