TrueTomHarley

There! You see, @tromboneck? I win. I didn't know you were still around John. You'll note I did not flag you. Yes, the second and third person would be beyond you. I have a few alternate personas and I bring them in every now and then, mostly for comic relief, that I'm not sure anyone appreciates other than me. But I need that outlet. I am playing here. If I actually thought I was patiently reasoning wiht "apostates" - as though thinking that the elders struck out but I know how to convince them - well - no way. That would be hugely presumptuous and not too obedient. But if I can make my own world, I can get around it. And I get to hone my writing abiltiy, which these days, is my sole gig. That is not to say that when I interract with persons here that I am not being genuine. I am. But with some characters, it doesn't matter if they are real or not. If the persona sketched is realistic, it is just like the "phony" householder in a service meeting demonstration at the Kingdom Hall. It is an opportunity to improve reasoning abiltiy. Even beyond that, efforts are not wasted. Someone may come along later or be reading at present whose circumstances fit or are close enough to the one I am interracting with, that they are being addressed, even if I don't know of them. As for John, he did something I have never seen anyone do here. He went from calling me a tool of the devil to offering me a heartfelt thanks. I'm not (overly) naive. I know he did not "come around." But I offered counsel intended to benefit him and he picked up on the spirit of it, if not the advice itself. I hope things work out for he and his family. People never yield on the internet, in any field, not just religion, and he did in a substantial way. Good enough I appreciate it. The only people that give up is some among US, who say 'you know the master IS delaying, so I'm going to beat my fellow slaves who misled me' or 'Actually Demas has a good point about the present system of things - I do kind of miss it - and here is an argument that gives me cover to follow his course.' These persons too, I hope to influence for the good in some manner.

When I bring in folks like @Vic Vomidog, @Dr. Adhominem Dr. 'Hammer' Urubi, and @Top Cat O'Malighan, I can almost write in the tenth person.

I don't think so. Which guy do you mean? Having said that, it really doesn't matter. If you leave a record of loyalty to Jehovah, slapping back hard at villainous reasonings, and even people when they make themselves synonomous with them, also not chit-chatting with determined enemies of the truth as though they were chums, yet not saying vile things yourself, and even showing some kindness and empathy wherever the situation might warrent it, I'm not sure how you can go wrong, even if the guy is phony. There was someone here who said he was a brother coping with homosexual tendencies some time ago. He painted himself very distraught. I think he said he had contemplated suicide at one time. I spoke with him at some length, as did several others here. But I always thought he could be just putting us on. It doesn't matter. If you sketch a character convincingly enough, you provide good opportunity for dealing with such a character, whether you are real or not. It's not like I feel I'm being Perry Mason here, you know. Nothing here is real, necessarily. Real or not, people provide a good opportunity to develope communication skills appropriate to both friend and foe. If you mean John, I don't think I've been gullible. Why would you think I have been? But even if I have, it hardly matters. I certainly mess with people's minds enough when I determine they are up to no good. If I am to stay here I must have that liberty. If someone turns the tables on me now and again, why should I complain? But I don't think it of John. He struck me as genuine, though you never know.

You have much stature, Trom, and I appreciate that, but I have learned not to say such things. Even when they are gone, there is no saying they might not come back. I don't like to make it personal. Someone may say "you don't?" because I have pushed back hard at times, even 'slapping' some. But I try to never go personal, and I think proof that that can work is the conciliatory note from John. Now, he is gone for now, but it is not necessarily permanent, and we might have made it so by going after him personally.

I think it is because one calamity comes along and people become incensed, but then another one or two arises the very next day to distract them. They get overwhelmed and in many cases they turn everything off. This is part of what I meant by 'not seeing the forest for the trees.' I did not mean it in a patronizing way, but only that there are so many scandals people tend to not focus on any given one. Even if we narrow it down to child sexual abuse itself, there is so much of it everywhere that people's eyes start to glaze over. A top cop in one British town said he wished he didn't have to prosecute cases of child porn found on computers. It pained him to say it, he acknowledged, but there was so much of it his people could not possibly keep up and were thereby distracted from the more immediate cases of abuse. At the meeting last night we spoke of the 'pangs of distress' Jesus spoke about. Pangs of distress before childbirth are bad and they get worse and they get more frequent. I think that is what is happening today. Who doesn't? I do. Everybody does. It is the nature of the internet to never let the other fellow have the last word, as we all should do more often. I am guilty of it myself. I am guilty of it now. Okay. I respect this. Your family pays a high cost for this, however, so take that into consideration, as I'm sure you have. This is how "God works in mysterious ways," to hijack a phrase from religious leaders when their doctrines have painted them into corners they cannot escape from. Over time agape love (the Greek agape,, not the English word) which focuses on a object and does not let go until its purpose is realized, serves to bind you to these ones too, even if they are yo-yos. There is a report somewhere that one GB member upbraided another for behaving "like an idiot." I have no idea whether it is true or not, but, as I close my eyes, I can see it, for their personalities are quite different. They smoothe it over with love so as to function effectively. If it helps - one participant jokingly complained a few times that I never 'like' anybody. The final time she said it, I went back into her comments and 'liked' everytime she so much as breathed. She asked me to knock it off before I crashed her system. You and me both, pal. @The Librarian is not wrong when she makes me sit in the corner with a dunce cap every now and then.

this is because @The Librarian is not running the organization. If she was, each disfellowshipping would be broken down and cataloged in a system that would make John Dewey envious, and like snowflakes, the same reason would not appear twice.

You have no idea how avant garde I am about counting hours. It is almost to the point that if I say my goal was 30 or 50, I write down that figure at the end of the month, and I mentally review my activity - if I have any sense of 'cheating' on the figures, I don't do it again. I witness routinely in a crazy variety of times, places, and methods, and if I have to track everything it will drive me nuts. My sense is that things will go this way eventually. We all know situations where it seems someone is overly concerned about hours, or where 'hours' can actually interfere with a productive ministry, as you just mentioned, or steering people away from productive times just because you can't accumulate too many hours there. It gets silly. It is not a bad idea, for it does make possible an overall cumulative report, which is a good thing, but if people start to obsess over time - how does that help anything. My report is .00000000001% (or so) of the total. If I deliberately lied through my teeth, it would not register.

I am tempted to start a post with flagging you 60 times. It is not considered rude to flag people usually, especially when they have been a central figure of the conversation. The specific reason I flagged you last time was to exclude you from a category of people that would wish to stifle the Bible's message. Had I not flagged you, I would have left the impression that I thought you were the worst of the lot. It is out of consideration for you that I did it. The other thread doesn't work for me, either. I don't know why. To my knowledge no one is specifically shut out without a warning or two first from @The Librarian Not too long ago I got into a endless battle with a certain pestilential fellow who I will not flag because if I never see him again it will still be too soon - a 'jugganaut', even his chum callled him - about another subject entirely and the Librarian asked me privately to knock it off. She is somewhat fond of the bottle (the old hen) and does not always notice at first when conversations are going down the toilet. She really doesn't like conversations, anyway - her pupils are here to study and do homework. She may have closed down the entire thread because there are getting to be many such threads and she is absolutely anal about imposing order on things that are not neccesarily that way, combing through her card catalog and sniffing out duplicates long after all her colleagues have gone digital and use their spare time to have a life. I don't know. Usually threads run longer than three pages, and if you are not @AllenSmith, who can be outragious, even though more often than not he strikes a blow for what is right, and has been tossed a number of times, you or anyone can continue to your heart's content. You must understand, John, that except for me, no Witness here is typical. That is not to say that any of them are bad, necessary, but they are not typical. The typical one will be more reserved as to participate in a slugfest such as this, knowing that Bethel recommends what Jesus recommended about opposers: "Let them be" at Matt 15.

You know, it is hard for me to believe - I mean, I grapple with it, but cannot escape the idea - and I specifically exclude @JOHN BUTLER from this and a handful of others who are right on top of the trees and so have not the best vantage point for contemplating the forest - that the true purpose of all condemnation of the GB's oversight is to slow down or, ideally, stop the preaching of the good news. Beyond all question, that is the effect. It is hard for me to believe that is not also the intent That is not to say it is even the deliberate intent of those who weigh in critically - it is easy to get caught up in a cause. However the effect is undeniably to thwart what Jesus said at Matthew 24:14 or turn it into a bland nothing with no power. Maybe I am missing something, but If they say they abhor child sexual abuse, if they assembled every member in the world at Regionals to educate them in prevention, and if they have achieved a prevention record 10 times that of anyone else, I do not see how they can be portrayed as the villains. I just don't. Temporarily lost footing in a windstorm - perhaps - but by no stretch of the imagination villains. I see it as an overall attack on the spread of the good news, made by persons or entities desperate that it not be told, no different in principle than the Russian ban, where sexual abuse charges played absolutely no role at all. That is not to say that the flashpoint is bogus, but only that it is being pumped up beyond all reason. There is something in the air of this system of things to tear down anything that is an accomplishment. Mark Zuckerberg had better step very carefully, for there are some who would crucify him in the afermath of Cambridge Analytica. Did anyone read his apology in its entirety and not just sound bytes that are selected to further differing agendas of those who report it? It sure sounded genuine to me - he says he does not deserve our business if he cannot do better - and responsible, and he immediately launched corrective measures. It is not enough. It will never be enough. Read how he is being reviled. He will apologize to his grave and it will not satisfy those who do not like him or Facebook.

Okay. Fair. See what happens. Do not be a foot soldier for. Do not be a foot soldier against. Be there (ideally at meetings) for your wife and son. Yes. Nobody can say that you have not tried. Sit tight and see how it plays out. At the Kingdom Hall even were you to persuade others that the org had dropped the ball, you would you be unlikely to get them to think that wrath from the courts or uprising from the people would improve things. They will think that God will use the present arrangement to clean up whatever mess they have stepped into. Don't be too quick to assume they are wrong. At the last Regional was a segment dealing with child sexual abuse. Nobody, but nobody, assembles their entire membership as the GB did and reviews detailed scenarios under which abuse might happen so that parents – the first line of defense - can educate their children and themselves. If they screwed up in the past (and I have not agreed they have) it is hard to imagine anyone atoning for it better. Especially emphasized was the fact that a perpetrator is likely to be someone a child knows and trusts. If a relative, or friend, or anyone else, seems overly attentive to your child – it is a reason to be watchful, said the program. If there are tickling sessions, if there are sleepovers, if there are trips alone to the public restroom, if - there were several other scenarios. They are all potential red flags - maybe harmless, but maybe not, and the parent must be aware. “The wise one sees the [potential] calamity approaching and takes action” was the Bible verse repeatedly cited. Okay. Herein is found your new role. Let us do a Luke 22:32 number on you: that the Lord has "made supplication for you that your faith may not give out; and you, once you have returned, strengthen your brothers." I think no one will be better equipped to strenthen the ones of Jehovah's people who have suffered abuse then you "once you have returned." It would appear that there are three facets of the child abuse situation: rehabilitation of victims, punishment of perpetrators, and prevention. Work on the first and the third. Ones who would devote themselves to the second are not lacking for numbers. The second is not nothing, but even when punishment is meted out, it does little to prevent future occurances, as @Space Merchant makes clear, nor heal the victims. Prevention and rehabilitation is where you can devote your best efforts. In the meantime, be a good support model for your family to lean upon. They (at least your wife) would prefer that you not be in the situation that you are in. But she will support you, if you do not act in a way she considers outragious, if you sit tight, work through a crisis, and see how things unfold. Most likely the elders, if you have been as forthright with them about your history as you have with us, will do so too. They won't say anything, and some will be more in tune than others, but they will most likely lend silent support as they observe. I get the sense they took no pleasure (they never do) in doing what they thought they had to do. As to: "As a complete contrast the congregation I joined was so full of peace and what i thought was love. That is why i accepted it so easily. I was naive and looking for security in a wicked world" - don't flush down the drain decades of life. Build upon it.

Tell me about it. I can hear you from here Â

I appreciate this. I really do, and you are not that far off the mark. Unfortunately, I tend to distrust such things, as a result of observing, reading, and yes, even some personal experience. I am content that I can sleep sound at night, or would, if I did not have to rise and pee, a condition not uncommon at my age. Usually I fall right back to sleep. But occasionally I must check to see that they are behaving with reasonable decorum at the WorldNewMedia and that the Librarian has not fallen off the wagon again.

Don't look at me. I was nowhere close. (who?) Oh. Wait. I just reread and went on to the 2nd portion. You know, @James Thomas Rook Jr. is right and I really do appreciate his observation, though I am not sure he made it for that reason. I do miss things. I will say it is because my mind is a veritable hive of activity, grappling with 100 ideas at once while the average person can do but one. He will say it is because I am dumb.

John, if I ever was to find myself on the outside looking in due to what I thought was primarily 'politics', I would continue to come to meetings, and take in the instruction that is to found nowhere else, while I waited for the bruhaha to pass. Seriously. There is no reason you cannot. I have thought about it. Here I am on a site where villains traverse freely and there is abundant counsel not to hang out with them. It is counsel, not law, and I do not consider myself 'associating' with them, but things can be misunderstood and every so often some 'zealous-for-no-rivalry' person overacts. I don't think it is very likely at all, but it is not impossible. I really would keep attending, so long as I felt Jehovah's Witnesses were right. I would figure that I was just termporarily on the outs with them, it will blow over eventually, and that i can always request reinstatement from time to time. Eventually one would stick. In the meantime, I would not insist that they 'come around.' I would be open to the possibility that I might have contributed to the mess. To be sure, I would miss the association, and I would probably not attend so constantly as I do now, which is almost without miss, but I would keep coming to the only place I know of where the Bible is discussed accurately. Though the association might be closed off, the spiritual food would remain undiminished. I know of one person who, while disfellowshipped, began attending meetings. Elders soon spoke with her, and she had no idea that she could be reinstated. She just figured the chasm would stay open till Armagedon but in the meantime she would go where she knew there was accurate knowledge. Why did she have no idea? Who knows? Such times are emotional. Maybe elders did not make it sufficiently clear. She is back now. Until recently, elders made a real effort to personally contact each DF one in their territory at least once a year. That's better 'service' than the typical non-Witness gets. Don't tell me they are not interested in people. John, you are at a crossroads. Don't screw it up, becasue it will affect your family more than you. Don't regard it as a pissing contest between you and the GB. Tell your kids: 'yeah, I got in a tiff with the brothers, but it will smooth out in time,' If you are truly convinced that the GB should be removed, be like David, who knew he was to be king, but in the meantime would not lay a hand on 'Jehovah's annointed' and rebuked those who tried to make him go there.

It was not anywhere near so biting as you imagine. But I took back even that because it appeared he was on the verge of a breakdown. I mean, c'mon! He called me a servant of the devil. I am expected to instantly coo love back to him? And he appears to have caught the spirit of the good advice I finally did give (not that it was in direct response) when he said: Anyway the sun is shining here and i will go into our garden and give thanks to God for His creation. I hope you all have a pleasant day. i wish you no harm. As i keep saying, we are all individuals and all have our own opinions. So be it. Only time will tell right from wrong. Good. He needs time to cool down. So do I, perhaps. I don't disagree with those final words at all. Maybe he is even on to something. Because the sun sure isn't shining here as I look out my window.

I have changed the remarks I left just prior to Polly.

John, I think you are in some danger of losing it. Take some time off. Seriously. I am not out to get you. I have just pushed back at some of your charges. You initially represented yourself as about to embark on a quest to find just what was the truth, or something to that effect - I forget the exact wording. The way you have conducted yourself here would indicate you were never in the slightest doubt of it. Go off on your quest if you are going to. Sit silently in the Hall if it helps you in any way, but it sounds to me like you have absolutely writen that option off and I do not know how you can take umbridge at "so and so is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses." Are you? Sounds like a good call, to me. Either make your peace with JWs are they are represented on move on. Don't stay here, at least not for now. You are working yourself into a lather.

What - are you nuts? You take offense that I suggest you were misled? Clearly you say the same of me. In fact for the most part, you go well beyond misled. You paint me as a liar.

For crying out loud, John, I was extending an olive branch. it is not the first time I have done it. Each time you hurl it back in my face. I will just pick one item from you previous post: This is so petulantly infantile that it is hard to countenance. Haul in the Presbyterians as well. Do they have 1 abuser per thousand? Or 999? "We will never know." If we cannot trust the Witness records, neither can we trust the Presbyterian records. You just don't like the former. It is no more complicated then that. However, with Presbyterian records, there is added reason not to trust them. They don't have any! What - they would have us believe that no Presbyterian has ever molested a child? Haul them all in here! Put the screws to them! "Raise your eyes to the heavens and count the stars. They are all populated by perverts. Pray that Elon Musk find success in his mission so that we can go up there and punish the residents among them if we find any are Jehovah's Witnesses.."

Not only is it a good point, but I am beginning to be frustrated that it is not made more often, and I don't mean by people here. People of my age saw it all unfold, but people younger than me did not. When those who hate the Witness organization catch the ear of the inexperienced (or gullible) ones, they get some of them believing that the very purpose of the list is to lovingly nurture pedophiles and protect them from the elements so that they may grow strong. Is @JOHN BUTLER one of those so misled? Complicating matters is that he is a victim of child abuse himself (and is quite brave to be so forthcoming) and if one is a victim of anything traumatic, it leaves a gut response that often overpowers any other consideration. John thinks I have been rough with him, and if I have, I will apologize in a heartbeat. It is nothing personal. Personally, perhaps I would like him a great deal. But he has chosen to be the face of a position that he represents in a very pugnacious manner. Sometimes faces are pounded in that way. It happens to me, too. It is nothing personal with him. Imagine! Insisting as he has that the present GB members be disfellowshipped! And what bad thing did they do? At most, they have mis-stepped in a rescue mission where they saved more people than anyone else - what with a prevention record 10 times that of others. Still, they could have pointed this out. You know, I have been in this forum too long. Whereas there are many here who will tell them what to do at the drop of a pin, I have scrupulously not gone there, as it is not my place and I do not have the lines of feedback that they do. I am beginning to reassess that wise approach in favor of shooting my mouth off, but not in a way that is most commonly done. In the abstract, these allegations of child sexual abuse sound bad - really bad - and so there are loyal ones who get antsy and start to urge that the GB grovel before the greater world (whose prevention accomplishments they far outstrip) and beg for forgiveness. My 'advise' would be to keep doing what they are doing, but "do it more fully." Continue with the headship and spiritual feeding program that they now arrange, which is absolutely stellar, and supplement it with what loyal ones need to know in order to push back at the maligners. No Witness should be in any doubt what was the purpose for any 'list' nor should they be in any doubt that it was in the main successful, with a success rate 10-fold, though it produced as a byproduct a few glitches in their reporting methods vs those of the less-successful world that opposers are seizing upon and trying to make the main event. They should not be able to do this, but they are in many instances. Educate ones who need or want to know on the proactive purposes of any 'lists.' Educate them on the ten-fold success rate in prevention. Educate them on how anyone who was serious about keeping God's standards should have tracked their actual abuse rate so as to correct it, and nobody else did. They were all negligent. These are all things that the present organization could do, and in my opinion, they should. Allowing opposers to drive perception on this issue results in persons insensed that the Witness organization is not perfect! Moreover (and this is simply floating an idea) what if those who had suffered abuse among the Witnesses were offered the same sort of support that hospital patients are with the hospital visitation services or even the HLCs? Maybe by extending their role into 'trauma teams' that help with any sort of trauma that our people get hit with. Populated with mature brothers and sisters of excellent listening skills, ones who have the reputation of empathy and who are not quickly put off by 'wild talk.' Imagine, if the organization that already has 90% less abuse victims due to its application of Bible principles took this additional proactive measure to assist 'carrying the burdens' of the victims it does have within its ranks. @JOHN BUTLER is not all wet in saying abuse victims can use added help. Having said that, there are many sorts of traumas wherein people can use help. It will be for someone else to figure what is a 'load' that all Christians must carry, and what is a 'burden' that each of us needs help with, and it is not always necessary or advisable to 'formalize' a basic Christian requirement, in this case, helping each other. Witness how people carry on here about formalizing the preaching work with 'goals' and 'pioneers.' It is just floating an idea to be batted around by people with better input and in better position if they choose to. I can see potential challenges, not so much in its intent, but in its implementation. But if it helped some to heal and to not abandon spiritual pursuits while they were doing so, there might be a place for something along those lines. In various ways we come to the assistance of fellow Christians who are 'clobbered' such as with natural disaster relief teams. Is this another one?

Could you elucidate on these statements? and thx.

In field service I found myself working directly across the road from the Assembly Hall during an assembly. What are the chances? Now, I am always on the lookout for something quirky to say so as the break the ice. An idea occurred to me as I approached a man in his garage. I thumbed behind me and said: “Man, the talks are so boring in there I just had to take a break and come talk to you - you know how religion is!” Of course, I didn’t leave it there. I registered the impression made and soon added that I just threw that in for his sake – I didn’t really believe it. Though in SOME cases…. Well, no – not usually in the Assembly Hall. It can be the case in a Kingdom Hall, but not usually at the larger gatherings and practically never at the Regionals. There is a chance – one must always consider – that a householder will quickly close the door and thereafter repeat to others your final and only words – “he said his meetings are dull.” No matter. This fellow will say bad things about us, anyway. Might as well give him an accurate statement to relate. It is the season of the Memorial invitations, which are very brief. Big event – we’re inviting people – Memorial of Christ’s death – we do it every year. In closing I mention I have a cool video that explains everything in just over a minute, or I can explain it myself and that will take 45 minutes and which works best for him? But I don’t twist arms and it is always clear there is a third option, to pass on both, which most people take. Our Assembly Hall is unusual in that it is on a residential road, which has only become more so since we built it. Moreover, though it is a network of roads, it is essentially a cul-de-sac. So there has long been a certain tension simply because of the traffic generated. To several I explained before I left: “Actually, just so you know – I really do go there, and – it is a standard announcement at every meeting that “we have neighbors and they have kids, so make sure to observe the 30MPH speed limit” so whatever speeders there are are the neighbors and not us. One woman was very gracious and said ‘I’m sure that’s true.’ They are only going to get more neighbors. At the end of their cul-de-sac network is a new tract of over 100 homes being built. That is in addition to the Ryan homes on the right before one reaches the Assembly Hall. That was cornfield when we moved in, and later we found out that Kodak bought it as a buffer to their property so we thought we would never see anything but corn or landscaping. We turned out to be false prophets on that one, didn’t we?

Yes!!! Fight ANOTHER war to MAKE them do it! (I don't think so) Didn't America, chastened by WWI, make a determined effort to rebuild those defeated after WWII, especially Japan, so that the defeated did not, after another 20 years, roll into WWIII? A Vietnamese friend of mine recalled as a boy playing among the corpses. Vietnamese had known nothing but war and adjusted more quickly than American soldiers, who were thrown in there just out of high school and saw heads, arms, legs & torsos flying about everywhere and went nuts - some of them.

If there are to be other ARC type hearings, when all is said and done it will boil down into two camps: Those who are primarily concerned with punishing it after it has happened, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket. And those who are primarily concerned that it does not happen in the first place, and have placed most of their eggs in that basket. It will be: securning the barn door after the cows have fled, or impeding them from fleeing in the first place. Nobody is going to have a perfect record - not so long as we are talking humans,