TrueTomHarley

Forgive me for this. Is wasn't a mis-quote on my part, but it was deliberate. It somehow struck me as more appropriate. If you hurl about the outlandish things you hurl, and show yourself impervious to any counter-argument, you must expect feedback like this. You demand commentary from me but you show no sign of listening to it. So I must get to it when I get to it, and it will not always be specifically in answer to you. I already have addressed several aspects, both here and on the other thread.

I don't have to. You have made it quite clear that you know what it is - as though you had climbed up there in his throne with him - and I can just take your word for it. On legal matters, you have my reply, and then you immediately carry on as though you had not read it, asking me for a tactical play by play - somehow assuming that I would know it. They change their ideas all the time about many things and have never said otherwise. What do you think "tacking" is?

For someone who honestly doesn't know anything, you certainly are sure that the answer to to DF the GB.

Thank you, SM. I do what I think you are doing as well. When I answer @JOHN BUTLER, I am not really speaking to him (I did at first), because he has demonstrated that he is inflexible in his opinion. He has, as one friend put it, a mind of concrete - all mixed up and firmly set. So when I address him I am not addressing him but the audience beyond him, which I don't think is particularly large. And I am honing my own remarks for repetition at a later time to ones that are - where it will do more good, and encouraging others to do the same. We will lose the battle, ultimately, because Christ said they will 'lyingly say every wicked thing about you' and 'if they persecuted me, they will persecute you.' But we fight back anyway and package the truth as cogently as we can "for a witness to them." It is like Mark Sanderson said with regard to the Russian ban. We got creamed in that courtroom and yet he gushed afterward on about 'the wonderful witness' given. Is he for real? Yes, because there is no question that Christians are going to lose the war in this system of things. What you want to do is to draw honest - hearted people so that they can see what is going on and take action themselves. The enemies in Russia wanted to snuff us out quietly. The Governing Body did not permit that to happen. They made sure, if it was to be done, it would be done with huge publicity. It is like Paul saying "This thing has not been done in a corner," and on that account confidently addressing honest hearted ones: "I know you believe." It will work out this way with the child sexual abuse "every wicked sort of thing" allegations, too. Though more sordid on the 'every sort of wicked thing' scale,. It will work out "for a witness" to honest hearted ones, once the issue is framed correctly, and I do not think this has yet been done. But it will be. Meanwhile, you are assisting in that goal. It is a good thing for you to be weighing in on this, showing how child sexual abuse is everywhere, often in far worse forms than anything discussed here, but is most vehemently condemned only when it is associated with religion.

Yes, you know, I do. It has been answered many times before and the answer is simply ignored, because the answer requires some thought to process and single-issue people have usually lost that ability. They have laid hold of a "gotcha" question and when they die, it is in their wills form it to be inscribed on their gravemarkers. However, let us answer the question from a fresh angle. There is a reason that Jehovah's Witnesses took some 50 cases to the U.S. Supreme Court, won most of them, and are universally given credit for thereby defining human rights for everybody. It is because they did not say to all the lower courts, judges, and lawyers: "Yes, boss...whatever you say." They sensed a deep injustice, refused to go along with it, dragged it into the Supreme Court, where higher and smarter and more impartial judges agreed with them. I did not participate overmuch in discussion of legal tactics because should I be hauled into the courts someday for something or other, I plan to hire an attorney. The reason I plan to hire an attorney is because I know the law is absurdly complex and I do not trust the impartiality of my prosecutor and not necessarily even the judge. If I was arguing my case before the 600 law system of ancient Israel, I would not hire an attorney. But if I am arguing my case before the 2,000,000 law system of today, I will. Therefore the proper response to criticism of this or that legal tactic of Witness attorneys is to blow it off the indulgence of hot air windbags. I will accept their criticisms when I know that they are capable enough in the law to represent themselves in court, and plan to do just that, rather than hire an attorney. Otherwise, I figure they are just whiners, largely uninformed, trying to push a favored point of view. John would sigh and swoon over the blessings and final truth-finding abiltiy of the human justice system. Is he for real? Especially in view of the Salon report which shows the human justice system routinely screws up on this favorite (and only) cause of his. https://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/custody-in-crisis-how-family-courts-nationwide-put-children-in-danger/ Is anyone other than John so naive as to think that there is nothing but joy to be found in the endless stream of lawyers being cranked out of law school who will go on to sue the pants off of everyone and commandeer one third (at least) of the proceeds? What do they do with it? Does anyone think that when the Boy Scouts were sued in Portland around 2010 for child sex abuse and the resulting verdict was said to be the largest ever awarded to a single victim, the legal team pumps the proceeds, after expenses, into anti-child abuse causes - maybe even into the Boy Scouts themselves with the stipulation it be used just for that purpose? The head lawyer said something to the effect of 'the Boy Scouts have undertaken a noble task in working with children and it is his sincere hope that the award will impress upon them the need to do it better.' Does anyone think that he is not lying through his teeth? Has nobody ever read a John Grisholm novel? In my area there are non-stop ads from a team of attorneys featuring people who look like glamorous movie stars that have never seen a day's suffering in their lives. 'So and so' got me 3 million dollars, 12 times what the insurance company offered!' they say. One person said 35 times . I looked into the case. The defendent's attorney had actually dragged his feet and opposed this process. He introduced some legal "trick." I was outraged!!! The lying sonuva you-know-what! When I heard the 35 times verdict, I rejoiced that justice had been served!!! Then I opened my adjusted premium bill. No. It is as Forest Gump said or would have said had he thought of it: "Lawyers is as lawyers does." I don't weigh in on their tactics. I realize they are operating in a fantastically complex and lucrative area mostly of their own making, and often made for just that reason. Since child sexual abuse is endemic human society and everyone is suing everyone else in an effort to stop it, eventually millions of dollars will transfer in all directions and everything will be as it was in the first place - and child sexual abuse will still be endemic - with the exception of the lawyers who will have scored a significant financial windfall. As I said on the other thread, there may be other hearings like those of the ARC and my instinct is to say BRING THEM ON! Let each one firmly establish what the Australian one did - that Jehovah's Witnesses have a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times more successful than the non-Witness world and that therefore only a friend of child abuse would oppose them. If need be, let the world divide into two camps: those who are outraged because for a given school shooting, the outcome was not "handled properly" - the grief counselors did not say the right things, - and those who would recognize the value of a school that takes actions so that shootings do not happen in the first place, and therefore almost never has to call up the grief counselors. Sometimes you almost think the first camp is driven by the grief counselors themselves who want to stay employed. - after all, their college grief counselor training put them tens of thousands of dollars into debt.

@JOHN BUTLER, where you are going has been gone many times before on this forum. I have taken part in it there. Look it up. I don't want to do old forever. Your question has been addressed many times over. And you and your new chums simply ignore the answer and ask your question again. I just brought up something new. Why do you not address it? But if you do not want to, take note of the only other NEW thought here, and becasue it is new it bears repeating. If you work to oppose the one organization that has a child sexual abuse prevention rate ten times that of the overall population, how are you not acting as a friend of child abuse?

@JOHN BUTLER What are your thoughts on Luke 2:41-50? Now his parents were accustomed to go from year to year to Jerusalem for the festival of the Passover.i 42 And when he was 12 years old, they went up according to the custom of the festival.j 43 When the days of the festival were over and they were returning, the boy Jesus remained behind in Jerusalem, and his parents did not notice it. 44 Assuming that he was in the group traveling together, they went a day’s journey and then began to search for him among the relatives and acquaintances.45 But not finding him, they returned to Jerusalem and made a diligent search for him. 46 Well, after three days they found him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers and listening to them and asking them questions.47 But all those listening to him were in constant amazement at his understanding and his answers.k 48 Now when his parents saw him, they were astounded, and his mother said to him: “Child, why did you treat us this way? Here your father and I have been frantically looking for you.” 49 But he said to them: “Why were you looking for me? Did you not know that I must be in the house of my Father?”l 50 However, they did not understand what he was saying to them. I think you will find that all verses are from the NWT.

I am beginning to come around to NB's point of view. They DO owe us more. If you drill into the data (and this is discussed on the other thread - opposers have seen fit to start not just one, but TWO, simultaneous threads - it becomes evident that Jehovah's Witnesses have a greater prevention rate of child sexual abuse ten-fold over that of anyone else! Imagine. Ten times the success rate of others! THIS is the fact that should be highlighted for members that need or want to know and in not doing this they are being let down. They are letting the enemies frame the entire argument. They should not do this. Now - techically it is inaccurate to say they have ten times the success rate of prevention than anyone else. They have ten times the success rate of the general population. Who is to say how they stack up to the Baptists or the Adventists or the atheists or the - anyone? There is no way to tell, because nobody else dared touch these figures. Obviously chlld sexual abuse occurs everywhere - just tune in the TV news to convince yourself - but nobody else cared or dared to look into their own membership with a view of uncovering and disciplining the evil actions within their own organization! Thus whenever anyone else is charged with child sexual abuse, their rellgion is never a factor - it is never reported (unless they are clergy)The Witness organization fails its members by not pointing this out. How did there come to be a "pedophile list" in the first place? It is a consequence of internal church disciple so as to present to God a clean people that the Bible says he demands. EVERYONE should have done this and NOBODY did. THAT is the fact that should be highlighted endlessly. By not doing this, they have reduced good solid loyal members to saying: "well - we don't like child sexual abuse either - really, we don't." That is why I appreciate @AllenSmith, abrasive though he is. He does not fall into this trap. He does not let those who hate Jehovah's Witnesses assume the higher moral ground. He tirelessly points out why they do not deserve it. Every once in a while he goes too far and he is tossed out on his ear. (though I have never heard of this happening to his opponents who can be equally outlandish) But he dusts himself off, alters the spelling of his name, and rejoins the fray. Bethel should not let the haters of Christian organization frame their 'reality' in preferance of the one which is far more important. Why are they doing it? My guess is that they are like deer caught in the headlights. They are decent, honest men - not oily manipulators - and they are dumbfounded that a deed with such good motive should be portrayed as so foul. What are they guilty of anyway? There is a reason for the expression "skeletons in the closet." It is the universal human instinct to keep them there. They were slow to realize that the new imperitive is to stampede them through Dodge City. They have never said members should not go to outside authorities should they become aware of abuse. It is at most presiding over a culture in which people are reluctant to air dirty laundry in public because they try to represent something very high and they are loathe to sully it by advertizing when they contrary conduct in their midst. These days elders positively urge families to report to authorities when they come across an instance of it only to find not everyone want to be on the 11 News as the home of Today's Pervert. If it is not mandated by law, you cannot make them, nor can you go over their head and do it yourself. This is why Bro Jackson pleaded to make it mandatory accorss all territories because it would "make out job so much easier." They have to deal with what really is the smaller picture, which is being done, while they steadfasting make sure the greater picture is in sharp focus: a prevention rate that is ten times that of the general population. Seen in this light, if there are to be more inquiries in other countries, parallel to what the ARC has done, and those who hate Witnesses are wetting themselves in anticipation, I say Bring It On! Let each one of them establish what the ARC did - that Jehovah's Witnesses are head and shoulders above others in preventing child sexual abuse. Let the sole victory of the opposers be to say: "Well - well - well, they're not perfect, are they?"

The authorities who must view child porn in the course of doing their jobs liken it to Medusa: "One look and you turn to stone"

Now you've got it! It's doing better than anyone else. How can that be spun as a bad thing? The facts are very simple. It was not the ARC's mission, but evidence was uncovered to show JW's cut child abuse by 90% overr the general population. @JOHN BUTLER does not care about this! He insists that attention be drawn elsewhere. How can be not be a friend of child sexual abuse? (Granted that he has suffered it, and of course that calls for empathy. But it doesn't necessitate trashing common sense and it doesn't justify 'slash and burn' toward the people with the best record)

It is amazing! I can’t sneak anything past you. You have hit the nail on the head! I am writing a book because I want to be F. A. M. O. U. S ! ! ! @JW Insider,!!! Run to the art room and fetch me a picture of a brother with puffed out chest thumbing to to the yacht and mansion behind him and the piles of MONEY (but no bikini-clad woman, for this IS a brother and we ARE talking a family publication. I want that brother to be ME!!! Swimming Pools! Movie stars! Sheesh. I’m writing a book for the same reason anyone writes a book – because I have a story to tell. Have you ever been to a library? There are a lot of them in there. I want to put one there as well. This is true with anyone! What is wrong with you? There has never been any question from the ARC or anyone else that they were getting the right numbers. The only reason they have any numbers at all is because Jehovah’s Witnesses track wrongdoing so as to punish it and warn others as necessary. No other faith even attempts to ensure that members should apply what they learn!! No one else goes there. Jehovah’s Witnesses worship the Governing Body in the same sense that passengers on a plane worship the pilot when they refrain from kicking in the cockpit door to and grabbing the controls. This is not hard to understand to anyone who has not mentally made himself a ten-year-old!! It is like when the reporters ask Tillerson "Did you call the President a moron??!!!" and he says "I'm not going to dignify that question with an answer" because he knows that if he says no, they will keep pressing him until he says yes, and if he says yes, they will run off with what they think is the story of the century!!! even though people routinely call each other morons - whether seriously or in jest, and it means nothing!! "Worship the Governing Body" my foot!! I mean, there is only so much you can do with a person determined to be stupid!! It gets worse. Punishment is fine – for child rapists no punishment is too great, but prevention is obviously the higher priority. It looks like every tenth person on the planet is a pedophile, so punishment, even when you do it right, only goes so far in solving the problem. And Jehovah's Witnessed DO punish. Quite severely when called for. But their way doesn't dovetail with the world's preferred way and THAT is what is being resolved. It is also the ONLY CONCERN John has! I am so done with this fellow! He does not care about prevention – he has made the point over and over again. He only cares about shaming people and revenge! (on Witnesses) He wants to punish it after it happens but does not seem to care about if it happens in the first place!!! He wants revenge! He wants to shame people! He could care less about stopping child sexual abuse!! That's not his thing. Enough! I am willing to disobey counsel in certain instances and engage with those who have fallen under the spell of single-issue fanatics, even if some of them also embrace apostacy. But there is no way I am going to engage with one who would encourage pedophiles!!! He sees how it is being stopped to a ten-fold degree and it doesn't interest him at all!!!

Strictly speaking, we are not supposed to be here at all.

You know, as much as I think James is the plague personified, every once in a while he offers up an absolutely precious vignette of life.

Two years ago a report said: “in family courts throughout the [United States], evidence that one of the parents is sexually or physically abusing a child is routinely rejected. Instead, perpetrators of abuse are often entrusted with visits or joint or sole custody of the children they abuse.” Read it here: https://www.salon.com/2016/12/11/custody-in-crisis-how-family-courts-nationwide-put-children-in-danger/ but don't read it unless you are prepared to get very sad and very angry The point is that the ones you hang out with online will have you believe that "handling an child sexual abuse case properly" is key to protecting children. Read the report and you will read case after case where it turned out to be exactly the opposite - reporting it to the authorities led to more abuse of the child, sometimes at the cost of its life. This accusation is too stupid to countenance. How can you be so dumb? So you have put your trust in the human system of courts as the ones who see justice from God's viewpoint! Is your confidence in human justice as strong after reading how the family courts routinely screw up what is put in their lap? One lesson to be learned is to value the conscience and godly devotion of the GB that has maintained an organization that is 90% less likely to originate cases of abuse that the courts may screw up when it is handed over to them. Bizarrely, you seem to not care at all about this. You seem to delight in the prospect of taking down the people who have ten times the success rate in prevent child sexual abuse in the first place. Seen in this light, it is YOU who are a friend of child sexual abuse. YOU malign the people who best prevent it in favor of a human justice system that may protect children after the event or may screw them up even worse. Legal tactics and the court system have been discussed at length on other threads so I will not revisit them here. Go there and look them up. However, in a nutshell, might there be a reason that the Society has not quickly kowtowed to a given legal demand? I think you said it yourself: They certainly have been previously - on a nationwide scale - as evidenced by the Salon article, despite the fact that you appear to have absolute confidence in them. You are hanging out with single-issue people, and single-issue people of any stripe will distort your world view. Single-issue people usually become those who 'cannot see the forest for the trees.' You are particularly vulnerable to this (more on this later, perhaps) by reason of being an abuse victim yourself. Because we are in the last days (I fear you are already walking back on this) there are literally thousands of atrocities to choose from and each of them generates its own batch of single-issue people - usually the ones who have suffered acutely due to that issue. To focus on one so intently so as not to appreciate anything else will only mess you up. I am writing a book on the persecution of our brothers in Russia. The media is rabid against Witnesses there, and reports against them all the time. One typical article slanders them non-stop, as low beings who “wet in the toilet,” would “clog your brains,” do “dark things through Jehovah,” and as to your money, they would have you “give the last.” The Supreme Court has ruled that parents can be stripped of parental rights for involvement of children in the sect. 79% of all Russians agree with this. (it has not been reported as happening yet, but the legalities are in place) Apostates were very active as prosecution witnesses, in full knowledge that they might be sending family members to jail, and certainly their former friends. This, even though pedophile accusations are not at all a concern over there - they have plenty of others. https://og.ru/society/2017/10/23/92255 (use AI to translate) and http://www2.stetson.edu/~psteeves/relnews/171204d.html My point is that you, over time, will come to agree with them fully. We are who we hang out with. You say you are conducting a fine investigation as to who really has the truth. I would say to wrap that up quickly if you can because the time's they are a 'changing. You have spoken of the pain of abuse, of how current victims might be helped, and how you prayed and got nothing. These are worthwhile points. If you can avoid for a time rolling with the pigs who would accuse the GB of sponsoring child sexual abuse even though they prevent it to a degree ten times better than your current heroes, I will address those things. If you cannot, I will throw up my hands and say he has chosen his new family - he is fully vested. He has volunteered to be a lieutenant of the army of kings of the earth attacking with the beast. He is a 'reformer' and since they will not reform on his terms, he will see them destroyed. Time is not unlimited. No sense in spending time trying to dislodge his grip, for he just tightens it further.

I will get back to you on this when I get a little more time. I actually do like the way you 'man up' and take responsibility for your action - it commands a certain respect - even if I think it is unncecessary and unwise for you to take it in the first place, and I continue to recommend that you walk it back. However, you actually did not answer my question. When there is the foretold attack upon God's people, described in Revelation, do you think some will dismiss it as God using the nations to discipline his own people? Will you be among them? If so, how will you spot the actual persecution when it comes? For you know there will always be something to point to. The perpetrators will not simply do it on the basis of being mean.

Do you think that when Revelation 19:19 takes place - "And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. people online will say: Do you really think the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies will say: "We hate God"? No. They will say: "We love God. And even where we don't, we love people's right to worship if they want. It's just that these JWs are doing it wrong and must be stopped." If JWs are not the godly people who are "everywhere spoken against" (Acts 28) and who suffer people "lyingly saying every sort of wicked thing against them," who would you say is? I think it is not a good time to bail. Contrary to what I charged, you have said you are not a fighter against God and you did not want to go out with a splash. Okay. I'll walk it back. @The Librarian tells me often enough that I can be obnoxious. Why should I not take correction from you also? But where do you find yourself now? You have expressed a desire to continue to worship God. Are you getting fine reinforcement to do that at avoidjw.com, or wherever you visit online?

There was a study in the Sun not long ago that found nearly all teens were found to have the BHP chemicals of plastic in their systems, which mimic estrogen. Should we be surprised at the explosion of transgender cases in the last 2 or 3 years? It has been found that transitioning such does not spare them from a 40% higher suicide rate than the general population. And maybe even the explosion of homosexuality over the last few decades.

Okay Okay Now you've got it! Once again, you have nailed it. I am way way up there in the ranks and I neglect all my crucial responsibilities to spend oodles of time posting to malcontents on the net, some of whom are nincompoops. I am a veritable theocratic tweeting Trump - But @AllenSmith is even more lofty than me. I would not be shocked if he were the alter-online-ego of Bro Jackson, himself, working out his frustrations on a backwater internet channel that the most clean organization in the world is portrayed by the ARC as among the foulest. To say nothing of the mysterious @Space Merchant.Where does he come from? Come, come. This is the internet, the land of the liars. If you want people you can know and trust, go to a place where you can physically interact with them. I think you are not being forthright either. You appear to have accepted the case 54 data that JW's have a better prevention record than anyone else. At any rate, you offer no pushback to it, though you do on other things. And ... you acknowledge that the organization with the best record, though not perfect, is improving. So NOW is the time you decide that it is too foul a place in which to sully your feet? There is more to you than meets the eye. When God finds out about the few denarious' debt you will not forgive your fellow slave, what will he say about the 10,000 fold amount that you owe him?

Probably you have read the other threads and appreciated the significance of the 17 instances of Case 54 - that children in the JW environment appear to be ten times safer than in the overalll world. I have made that point. Others have, too. To spotlight this is called "raising a straw man." It is raising a tangential argument and subsequently demolishing it in hopes that the halo effect will spill over and hide the main concern. Persons of critical thinking hate raising straw men. It is a major no-no. With regard to Jehovah’s Witnesses, they do not want the faith compared to other organizations, where it will be seen as ten times better. They want them compared to perfection, where it will be seen to fall short. Will you really go livid at the organization that has a prevention rate ten times better? What will happen when you approach Jehovah and tell him you are 'in' only when there is perfection? This happened because you were determined to go out with a splash, or someone talked you into doing it. It didn't have to be. You could have faded or simply desisted congregation activity. You have let the liars frame your world for you. It is plain in every sentence you write. Ponder upon the JW record being ten times better than anyone else and then ask yourself - do you really want to hurl denunciations at it because it is not perfect. Hustle your rear end back to the Kingdom Hall and ask for readmiittance. It will not happen overnight, but it will reliably happen if you persist. It always does. Possibly not. But there is no reason to be a 'fighter against God' with regard to it and oppose the organization with a prevention record second to none. As you will know if you read the report, the current Watchtower policy is that no child is required to face an abuser. And a child may, in relating things to those investigating allegations, have any support person present it wishes, male or female. And that - the elders are very insistant on pointing this out - any child, family member, or other person has every right to report to outside authorities, and that the elders will do it themselves where mandated.

They do not. Or rather, they do, but it is far less serious a problem than that of anyone else. That is the significance of the data from Case 54.

That being the case, This is by far the most significant fact to emerge from the ARC data. It is the one you should focus on.

How about this for a tee shirt?

If I was going to wear a tee shirt - and I have never worn any, even for Coke or Pepsi - it might be the former. I like it. The trouble with wearing such Bible trivia, and this is only my opinion, is that it usually comes off as self-righteous. I even resisted wearing the badge cards between sessions at the convention for a time, though they are far more dignified, out of the same concern. I got over it. I wear the card now. But it will be a cold day in hell (by anyone's definition of hell) before I wear a Memorial tee shirt.

In fact, it was. It is contained in that article forbidding the use of copyrighted materials including artwork and logos, and the suggestion that Bethel may go after even friends who do this. As I recall, nobody screamed louder about this than you. As to the shirts themselves, I'm with @Steve Wilkinson. You will not see one at the Kingdom Hall. ideally none of our people will wear them in any setting. But any gift shop for any attraction features tons of such tacky fare, so time only will tell.

The cops found pictures of cats on my hard drive. I have been outed in the media. My life is so over!