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TrueTomHarley

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  1. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from JW Insider in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Why is that? Is it not because we are in the last days of this system of things? Or would you have said it at any moment of time from 33 onward? In that case, why specify “for our time?”
    Look, just say “kick it into high gear in the last hundred years or so,” and we can all live with that. Kings sit, stand, kneel, run, sleep, lie down, and take nourishment all the time, and we just go about our business. Moreover, a king is not always a king. Sometimes he is a king-designate, a king-to-be, a king not yet playing with a full deck, even a king not yet at his zenith. “Can’t we all just get along?” said Rodney King to the masses.
    As for me, I rear up like a Voltaire and say, “I may disagree with what you say, but if you get into hot water over it, its on you.” But maybe you won’t—not here on this offbeat thread with its own house anointed, house dodo, house speaker of English as a second language, house condemner of friend and foe (where is he, by the way?), house dog, and house everything else. This is the place to float trial balloons, but I’m not sure that your trial balloon is that much different than the party line, save only some quibbling over words. 
    Incidentally, did you know that Voltaire never said it? It is a line universally attributed to him—“I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!” He never said it. The line is attributed to him by a biographer. It is the bane of Voltaire scholars, the Great Courses professor said—the constant need to correct that point. He cited the director of a Voltaire Museum who keeps a form letter on hand for all the inquiries he gets on that point. Nor would Voltaire ever say it, the professor maintains. He was too fond of his life. 
  2. Downvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Why is that? Is it not because we are in the last days of this system of things? Or would you have said it at any moment of time from 33 onward? In that case, why specify “for our time?”
    Look, just say “kick it into high gear in the last hundred years or so,” and we can all live with that. Kings sit, stand, kneel, run, sleep, lie down, and take nourishment all the time, and we just go about our business. Moreover, a king is not always a king. Sometimes he is a king-designate, a king-to-be, a king not yet playing with a full deck, even a king not yet at his zenith. “Can’t we all just get along?” said Rodney King to the masses.
    As for me, I rear up like a Voltaire and say, “I may disagree with what you say, but if you get into hot water over it, its on you.” But maybe you won’t—not here on this offbeat thread with its own house anointed, house dodo, house speaker of English as a second language, house condemner of friend and foe (where is he, by the way?), house dog, and house everything else. This is the place to float trial balloons, but I’m not sure that your trial balloon is that much different than the party line, save only some quibbling over words. 
    Incidentally, did you know that Voltaire never said it? It is a line universally attributed to him—“I may disagree with what you say, but I will fight to the death for your right to say it!” He never said it. The line is attributed to him by a biographer. It is the bane of Voltaire scholars, the Great Courses professor said—the constant need to correct that point. He cited the director of a Voltaire Museum who keeps a form letter on hand for all the inquiries he gets on that point. Nor would Voltaire ever say it, the professor maintains. He was too fond of his life. 
  3. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Well, you don’t exactly make the job hard. Just quoting you is usually enough to do the trick.
     
    No
    No.
  4. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from JW Insider in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    James is wrong then, is what you are saying, when he says “faith without works is dead?”
    Would you remove that book from the Bible?
    Seems like only recently that you also all but declared Jesus wrong, telling Pudgy the dog that you had your doubts about following his direction: “Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe.”
    You’re making fine progress in the scriptures since leaving JWs. All that remains is to declare God wrong.
    (P.S. With scripture, you don’t just ignore what you don’t like. You reconcile them. Any Witness can reconciled the words of James and Paul in two minutes.)
     
     
  5. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    James is wrong then, is what you are saying, when he says “faith without works is dead?”
    Would you remove that book from the Bible?
    Seems like only recently that you also all but declared Jesus wrong, telling Pudgy the dog that you had your doubts about following his direction: “Therefore all the things they tell YOU, do and observe.”
    You’re making fine progress in the scriptures since leaving JWs. All that remains is to declare God wrong.
    (P.S. With scripture, you don’t just ignore what you don’t like. You reconcile them. Any Witness can reconciled the words of James and Paul in two minutes.)
     
     
  6. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    I quoted him, that’s all.
    You had apparently forgotten all about his words,  “Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (2:26) when you gave your opinion that
    Don’t you remember anything of the Bible since you left JWs?
  7. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to Thinking in Gog of Magog   
    When one understands  WHY things are the way they are…one then gets a certain peace ..that others who are spiritually   naked cannot…then we can go with ease and chew on the bone because we know these things Must  take place.
    Im glad I know about it….at times I wish I didn’t….but then I would be sick with worry and in fear because of not knowing the way out…
    This tribulation is less painful because we understand this….but hey…I’ll beat you to the fridge door….you can have the bone…I’ll have the drink 🍺 
     
  8. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    I quoted him, that’s all.
    You had apparently forgotten all about his words,  “Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (2:26) when you gave your opinion that
    Don’t you remember anything of the Bible since you left JWs?
  9. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    I quoted him, that’s all.
    You had apparently forgotten all about his words,  “Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (2:26) when you gave your opinion that
    Don’t you remember anything of the Bible since you left JWs?
  10. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    James thinks that. He says it, too: “Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (2:26)
    It is not a contradiction. What James’ expression means is that not all “faith” is really faith.
  11. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Pudgy in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    James thinks that. He says it, too: “Indeed, as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.” (2:26)
    It is not a contradiction. What James’ expression means is that not all “faith” is really faith.
  12. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    PSomH is the only person I have ever met, I think in my entire life, who regards ‘writer’ as a pejorative.
  13. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    The description of messenger that I like, which far overshadows all these nit-picky points you raise, is that of the messenger that prepares the way. 
    “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord, whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant.” (Malachi 3:1) 
    The idea is picked up again at Matthew at 3:3, and even harmonized with Isaiah:
    “This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”
    The first thing you must do to “clear out the way” for any building project is to cart out the trash. Accordingly, Jehovah’s organization carted out significant trash in those early years corresponding to Russell, trash for instance having to do with no trinity, and no immortal soul that might burn in hell. The first makes God unknowable, and the second makes him cruel, someone you would not want to know. You can’t do any building until that stuff is gone. For the most part, faiths outside of JWs retain and showcase this trash to this day.
    Russell and friends missed a few things, though, and the trash they missed would be carted out to the curb later, things having to do with God’s name being THE most identifying feature, with the unsavory origin of certain holidays, with reverence for the cross, and so forth. 
    These are the thing that anyone which the slightest spiritual vision focuses on. They don’t just keep on dinging on points that seemed unclear or were even misidentified as the lens was being focused.
    To they extent they do this, they include themselves as those who paid insufficient attention and came to wrong conclusions. It is not the “us against them” scenario that you wish it to be.
    The whole focus is wrong here, and it smacks of PTonH, who maintains that since we don’t know everything, it is wrong to do anything until Santa comes along and explains every little detail. Better to be patiently sitting on your rear end. “Faith without works is dead,” James says, and is it just me who reads into his demeanor and constantly badgering of the doers a veneration of dead faith?
    Your remarks smack of the “leadership by apology” style that becomes all the rage today. Indeed, sometimes apologies are in order, but anyone who follows modern secular events cannot help but note that an apology is never accepted. Instead, the solution invariably proposed is “Off with his head!” Isn’t that’s why nobody knows anything today? At the first misstep, people are sent out to pasture, leaving only the inexperienced dolts to run the show.
    I’m reminded of the line in “Cool Hand Luke” in which George Kennedy marvels that Luke just kept coming and coming when he had nothing!” It worked for a while, but eventually George paid a heavy price for following someone who kept coming when he had nothing. So it is with Srecko and Witness and PSomH. They “keep coming” so as to tear down, but they have nothing in replacement, and in the case of those who (like Srecko?) are humanists, they celebrate having nothing as a great victory.
    Nobody would say that Witnesses have everything, but they have far from nothing. While there have admittedly been some back-eddies, even backtracking, even times when staying the course and/or following counsel has worked against the immediate interests of some, it messes with only the “glass is half empty” people. For those who can adopt the far more healthier “glass is half full” outlook on life, the path forward is with a spiritual vision that enables one to derive meaning and even strength out of the current events that make persons in general go weak at the knees. If you go like Demas, though, who abandoned Paul because “he loved the present system of things,” then spiritual things themselves become trash, and Demas over time does nothing but bellyache about a group, his former allies, that, inexplicably to him, keeps holding fast to what is fine. He keeps trying to tell them it is not fine, and mutters about “brainwashing” when they pay him insufficient heed.
  14. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to Thinking in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    Only if he puts the camera on…
  15. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    The description of messenger that I like, which far overshadows all these nit-picky points you raise, is that of the messenger that prepares the way. 
    “Look! I am sending my messenger, and he must clear up a way before me. And suddenly there will come to His temple the [true] Lord, whom YOU people are seeking, and the messenger of the covenant.” (Malachi 3:1) 
    The idea is picked up again at Matthew at 3:3, and even harmonized with Isaiah:
    “This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in these words: “Listen! Someone is crying out in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way of Jehovah, YOU people! Make his roads straight.’”
    The first thing you must do to “clear out the way” for any building project is to cart out the trash. Accordingly, Jehovah’s organization carted out significant trash in those early years corresponding to Russell, trash for instance having to do with no trinity, and no immortal soul that might burn in hell. The first makes God unknowable, and the second makes him cruel, someone you would not want to know. You can’t do any building until that stuff is gone. For the most part, faiths outside of JWs retain and showcase this trash to this day.
    Russell and friends missed a few things, though, and the trash they missed would be carted out to the curb later, things having to do with God’s name being THE most identifying feature, with the unsavory origin of certain holidays, with reverence for the cross, and so forth. 
    These are the thing that anyone which the slightest spiritual vision focuses on. They don’t just keep on dinging on points that seemed unclear or were even misidentified as the lens was being focused.
    To they extent they do this, they include themselves as those who paid insufficient attention and came to wrong conclusions. It is not the “us against them” scenario that you wish it to be.
    The whole focus is wrong here, and it smacks of PTonH, who maintains that since we don’t know everything, it is wrong to do anything until Santa comes along and explains every little detail. Better to be patiently sitting on your rear end. “Faith without works is dead,” James says, and is it just me who reads into his demeanor and constantly badgering of the doers a veneration of dead faith?
    Your remarks smack of the “leadership by apology” style that becomes all the rage today. Indeed, sometimes apologies are in order, but anyone who follows modern secular events cannot help but note that an apology is never accepted. Instead, the solution invariably proposed is “Off with his head!” Isn’t that’s why nobody knows anything today? At the first misstep, people are sent out to pasture, leaving only the inexperienced dolts to run the show.
    I’m reminded of the line in “Cool Hand Luke” in which George Kennedy marvels that Luke just kept coming and coming when he had nothing!” It worked for a while, but eventually George paid a heavy price for following someone who kept coming when he had nothing. So it is with Srecko and Witness and PSomH. They “keep coming” so as to tear down, but they have nothing in replacement, and in the case of those who (like Srecko?) are humanists, they celebrate having nothing as a great victory.
    Nobody would say that Witnesses have everything, but they have far from nothing. While there have admittedly been some back-eddies, even backtracking, even times when staying the course and/or following counsel has worked against the immediate interests of some, it messes with only the “glass is half empty” people. For those who can adopt the far more healthier “glass is half full” outlook on life, the path forward is with a spiritual vision that enables one to derive meaning and even strength out of the current events that make persons in general go weak at the knees. If you go like Demas, though, who abandoned Paul because “he loved the present system of things,” then spiritual things themselves become trash, and Demas over time does nothing but bellyache about a group, his former allies, that, inexplicably to him, keeps holding fast to what is fine. He keeps trying to tell them it is not fine, and mutters about “brainwashing” when they pay him insufficient heed.
  16. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The Land of Exile   
    Maybe they’ll change it.
    Or maybe we’ll learn to deal with the whole thing as a metaphor. (though I don’t see how)
    Meanwhile, if someone starts giving me a hard time over this in the ministry, I tell them its okay to treat it as a metaphor, and on that basis, see what can they draw from it. A certain type of person almost takes that as a compliment—that you are not rubbing their nose in ‘Adam & Eve’ but you are deeming them smart enough that they can figure out a metaphor. I even briefly won over my return visit Bernard Strawman, whom everyone but me thinks is a waste of time, on this point.
    I used to call people like this ones who suffer from “We are wise and learned adults, far too clever to be sold Adam and Eve. What’s next—Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck?” syndrome. But now I drop the derisiveness, which does little good anyhow, and just invite them to treat it as a metaphor. After all, science is pretty universal that Adam & Eve is for dumbbells, and we are all taught that science is the be-all and end-all. Training like that doesn’t turn around on a dime.
    Sometimes when they see how well the metaphor works out they forget all about “science” and they put their “cognitive dissonance” on the shelf as something to work out later. You don’t have to know everything. It’s the antithesis of humility to think that you do—or can.
    I’’m convinced the phrase “cognitive dissonance” is an appeal to our pride and overall dumbs us down. It is an idea worthy of a pamphlet, but not the volumes dedicated to it. People can’t simultaneously hold two conflicting ideas as true at the same time? Of course they can. A little humility solves the problem, a willingness to put this or that on the shelf pending more information, which may or may not come, but in the meantime, you can’t rush it. You can’t just check yourself at the door because of a few facts that don’t line up. I note how often in mathematics, proofs will commence with assuming this or that point is true, and then seeing where that assumption leads. They don’t just stop dead in their tracks because they don’t know up front whether something is true or not
    When I first came across Jehovah’s Witnesses, I was astounded that here were people who actually believed in Adam and Eve. They didn’t look stupid, or if so in no greater proportion than anyone else, yet all my life I had heard that only the reddest of the rednecks believed in Adam and Eve.  I couldn’t figure it out. I decided to shelve it for future resolution. I still don’t know how certain things will align. But the answer to the ‘problem of evil,’—why a loving God would permit it, the answer to the reason for and origin of death, the coherent answer to the question of how Christ’s death could benefit us—all these things were so overwhelming, that I decided to give “science” the back seat, not the front seat it usually demands. Without Jesus as the “first Adam,” a perfect man who by holding the course, repurchased us from that first perfect man who sinned and sold us out, the question of ‘Why Jesus died from us’ devolves into a mushy and intellectually unsatisfying “because he loved us.” To be sure, the head is not everything, but neither is it nothing. 
    There is some sort of chromosomal evidence that goes back about 6K years. I think @Araunaposted of it not too long ago. I haven’t looked at it closely. Maybe that represents the reconciliation of timelines that otherwise don’t reconcile. It is roundly shouted down by majority scientists today. But we ought to know by now that being shouted down by the majority means nothing. Doesn’t this entire thread establish that? Or what of @JW Insider, who takes a line contrary to almost everyone else (and i think he’s wrong on the point) and declares bad reports of the CCP overblown? Here he is shouted down, but perhaps elsewhere he is paraded around as a visionary. Anything can be spun any way, by people who may or not be disingenuous. 
    The majority team gets the ball and then tilts the field so steeply as to tumble the minority team right off it.
     
  17. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    It is amazing to me how you can put such contradictory statements back to back and not see how they obliterate one another.
    Obviously, Anna’s “truthful” comment is just something she “thinks” she knows, maybe true, maybe false. 
    The only test for something to be true from your point of view is that you agree with it.
  18. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The Land of Exile   
    Many generations later, once the ravages of sin had thoroughly worked themselves into the chromosomes, yes.
  19. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in The Land of Exile   
    “Consider the future!” said the pre-Joker to the police informant as he plugged him from afar with a bullet in a movie you surely didn’t see but you absolutely know that Pudgy the Dog did.
    Aside from that—that really is a pretty good analysis you did above. Is that what we call ‘Reasoning from the Scriptures?’
  20. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Anna in Health PSA - Colchicine can kill you   
    In the US, Covid 19 deaths have topped 600K. I’ve come to believe that the majority were preventable but for the prevailing meme that it was untreatable, that one with a positive case should sit at home, take fluids and bed rest, and only if it got really bad, go to the hospital—by which time is was often too late.
    The last physical I had I asked my doctor if were to come down with Covid, would he be able to treat it? Of course i can, he said, almost surprised at the question. He went on to relate a few drugs he has used to treat patients—he has done many—and they are some of the same drugs condemned in ‘high places’ as ineffective or even dangerous. You have mentioned some of them. We use them all the time, he says. They work fine in combination.
    He’s an older man and thus not so likely to be intimidated as is a younger doctor just starting out, beholden to many and intent upon paying off medical school debts.
    There was a time I used to dismiss all talk of ‘conspiracy theories’—not on the grounds that people were not evil enough—they can easily be that—but on the basis that they were not smart enough, that there were too many stories that must be corroborated for a theory to hold up and it would be too easy for others to punch holes in it. It’s a bit like how Abraham Lincoln once said that he was not smart enough to lie, meaning that once he did, he would have to adjust every subsequent statement to harmonize with that first lie, and he would surely trip himself up in the intent.
    But now I see that concern is not the operative one. You simply can repeat anything loudly and repeatedly, drown out the competition, or even pull the plug on them, and eventually people believe whatever they’re told. It doesn’t matter if people punch holes in it. You simply shout them down and call them quacks.
     
  21. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Thinking in Health PSA - Colchicine can kill you   
    In the US, Covid 19 deaths have topped 600K. I’ve come to believe that the majority were preventable but for the prevailing meme that it was untreatable, that one with a positive case should sit at home, take fluids and bed rest, and only if it got really bad, go to the hospital—by which time is was often too late.
    The last physical I had I asked my doctor if were to come down with Covid, would he be able to treat it? Of course i can, he said, almost surprised at the question. He went on to relate a few drugs he has used to treat patients—he has done many—and they are some of the same drugs condemned in ‘high places’ as ineffective or even dangerous. You have mentioned some of them. We use them all the time, he says. They work fine in combination.
    He’s an older man and thus not so likely to be intimidated as is a younger doctor just starting out, beholden to many and intent upon paying off medical school debts.
    There was a time I used to dismiss all talk of ‘conspiracy theories’—not on the grounds that people were not evil enough—they can easily be that—but on the basis that they were not smart enough, that there were too many stories that must be corroborated for a theory to hold up and it would be too easy for others to punch holes in it. It’s a bit like how Abraham Lincoln once said that he was not smart enough to lie, meaning that once he did, he would have to adjust every subsequent statement to harmonize with that first lie, and he would surely trip himself up in the intent.
    But now I see that concern is not the operative one. You simply can repeat anything loudly and repeatedly, drown out the competition, or even pull the plug on them, and eventually people believe whatever they’re told. It doesn’t matter if people punch holes in it. You simply shout them down and call them quacks.
     
  22. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley reacted to xero in Health PSA - Colchicine can kill you   
    This is certainly true. One thing I use as a metric for competency in other fields is this musing:
    X- "Hey xero, are you smart or stupid?"
    X-reply "It depends. I have taken IQ tests and they suggest I'm @150, but when I factor in my ADD it could simply mean I can get stupid faster than 99.9% of the idiots"
    X-"Sure, but don't you also quickly figure out how stupid you've been?"
    X-"I suppose that's true. What are you getting at?"
    X-"So, X, you've been working in IT since 1978, in many, many different capacities, mostly all highly technical. Would you call yourself an expert?"
    X-"I suppose some people would think that, but I know that what I know is way less than what someone else imagines I know. What I "know" is how to approach solving a technical problem. The rest are details and trial and error."
    X-"So that's the case w/you in your own field. What would cause you to imagine it wasn't the case w/every other expert?"
    X-"Good point!"
    So when I see an "expert" not display humility and act as if they've got it all figured out "the science is settled!" I know I'm seeing either an incredibly incompetent individual who has either shielded himself or been shielded from the consequences of his own incompetence so as to not have acquired the self-knowledge required to change his attitude, or a politician who's pushing an agenda (follow the money).
    Also, people following their own interests w/o collusion CAN look like a conspiracy, when it's simply group-think. (see all the hipsters who look alike - did they all get memos, or did they catch some social semiotics and change in behavior/looks because of these subliminal messages they've become attuned to?)
     
  23. Like
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from xero in Health PSA - Colchicine can kill you   
    In the US, Covid 19 deaths have topped 600K. I’ve come to believe that the majority were preventable but for the prevailing meme that it was untreatable, that one with a positive case should sit at home, take fluids and bed rest, and only if it got really bad, go to the hospital—by which time is was often too late.
    The last physical I had I asked my doctor if were to come down with Covid, would he be able to treat it? Of course i can, he said, almost surprised at the question. He went on to relate a few drugs he has used to treat patients—he has done many—and they are some of the same drugs condemned in ‘high places’ as ineffective or even dangerous. You have mentioned some of them. We use them all the time, he says. They work fine in combination.
    He’s an older man and thus not so likely to be intimidated as is a younger doctor just starting out, beholden to many and intent upon paying off medical school debts.
    There was a time I used to dismiss all talk of ‘conspiracy theories’—not on the grounds that people were not evil enough—they can easily be that—but on the basis that they were not smart enough, that there were too many stories that must be corroborated for a theory to hold up and it would be too easy for others to punch holes in it. It’s a bit like how Abraham Lincoln once said that he was not smart enough to lie, meaning that once he did, he would have to adjust every subsequent statement to harmonize with that first lie, and he would surely trip himself up in the intent.
    But now I see that concern is not the operative one. You simply can repeat anything loudly and repeatedly, drown out the competition, or even pull the plug on them, and eventually people believe whatever they’re told. It doesn’t matter if people punch holes in it. You simply shout them down and call them quacks.
     
  24. Haha
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The disgusting thing that causes desolation...   
    It is amazing to me how you can put such contradictory statements back to back and not see how they obliterate one another.
    Obviously, Anna’s “truthful” comment is just something she “thinks” she knows, maybe true, maybe false. 
    The only test for something to be true from your point of view is that you agree with it.
  25. Upvote
    TrueTomHarley got a reaction from Patiently waiting for Truth in The Land of Exile   
    Many generations later, once the ravages of sin had thoroughly worked themselves into the chromosomes, yes.
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