Nana Fofana

Do we really? I think we both know what it is to buy into ex-witness assumptions...

Their mistake was to publish their speculation in their quest for understanding, if that is what you think it was. You do not publish something like that to an audience who has been eagerly waiting, for the end, tongues hanging out, since 1914. You only publish it if you are convinced of it yourself. Otherwise you would be a foolish, not discreet slave.

The vast majority didn't even know about it until ex-witnesses started spreading the word, and making it look like people missed out on something. 99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual. Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...
But, I don't recall anyone at that time that was disappointed in my area. That became an added challenge the Watchtower had to address.

It appears that with the internet it's too late and the "cat is out of the bag" never to be captured again!

The honest assessment was to *understand* and not allow your mind to go wild with speculation, which the FDS warned against. If you were around that time, then you would understand. I'm not willing to take the word of someone that cant, speak with clarity and truth if they experienced that moment in time.
It appears the same speculation continues with some that might have been there, but speak of it in a biased way. The good thing is, the Watchtower literature is there for everyone to comprehend and view it correctly without butting a spin in speculation.

Sorry Mate!
Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

Are you in anyway suggesting that BAR-ANERGES was not telling the truth? if so, were you there, I was, and I agree with his conclusion.

Dear AB
Couldn’t agree with you more. Those, that speculated in 1975 thought it was a fact which worked against their ego by hysteria. The organization didn’t fuel it, ego did. There's no reason to rehash assumptions with speculation. Otherwise, we start new with the same old thing. Putting the trust on those that believe speculation is an honest assessment.

The only problem with speculation is people's tendency to treat it as FACT.
Early Adopter Syndrome, that wanting to be "one of the first", plays a huge role in that, fueled by one's ego.
Not always, mind you.
But, many times, sure enough.

If you are looking for a job do not contact a recruiting agency.
What they’ll do is drag you in for an “interview.” Then make you an “MPC” — most placeable candidate— and literally try to sell you as a commodity with a huge fee tacked on your back. This makes it much more expensive to hire you.
If a company actually expresses interest in hiring you they’ll throw as many candidates “like you” into the mix to compete with you so they can get a hire (commission). This screws you, the candidate, in so many ways.
Job hunting? Contact an internal recruiter at the company you want to work for. They can tell you if you’re qualified.
Big external recruiting firms require that their recruiters have upwards of 10 of these fake “MPC” interviews a week in hopes that they might sell you or someone like you for a huge fee somewhere. It's deceptive and despicable. Recruiting agencies should only be used when they contact you for an actual open job that is interviewing.
That’s what they are supposed to be doing.

An anniversary or a birth date is not a prophecy unless someone makes it into one. And we can certainly see why someone may come to the conclusion that the doctor was right about the "due date" but the baby may still be "delayed" after that date. There is nothing wrong with being prepared for its birth on the due date. You don't stop waiting after that date do you as if the baby is no longer coming? 1975 was a time marker marking 6,000 years from Adam's creation. That due date was known. Eve's creation was obviously long after that since Adam said when she arrived "this is AT LAST bone of my bones". So a long time had elapsed from Adam' viewpoint. Interestingly Eve's date was also KNOWN - therefore the "day and hour that is unknown is not dependent on these time markers since the angels were all present for both events. Since the Great Tribulation is not a moment in time but a period of time could the day and hour that the angels do not know be the "BEGINNING of the great tribulation" {the attack on religion} rather than the end of it which would be Armageddon? This is my "opinion". {Whether Eve's creation was or was not the end of that creative day is not the point as the angels would know when that was since they were present either way}. {In case no one has noticed MOST of the time the Watchtower Society has mentioned the day and hour it has referenced the "Beginning" of the GT not just Armageddon since our understanding now is a period of time to elapse as in a "first phase and second phase" to the GT}. 
   As for brothers selling things to simplify your life for greater service to God is very commendable as my family did in 1975 and before likewise and we benefited from that decision with increased spirituality and awareness of our place in the stream of time {sense of urgency}. Of course everyone is different and some will inevitably take things to far. Again that is their "opinion" or "choice". No one forced my family or others to simplify their lives. But the Bible clearly shows that is a proper thing to do in this system no matter how long we have to wait for the final end. Live as tho the end is coming tomorrow but plan as if it is not.

A quote from the past.
Did the Organization of Jehovah's Witnesses Ever Say That Armageddon Was Definitely Going to Come In 1975?




It is an absolute lie to claim that the Witnesses said that Armageddon would come in 1975. Here is an article from *1974* that I carry around with me which shows what mature Witnesses knew and were saying:

"The publications of Jehovah's Witnesses have shown that, according to Bible chronology, it appears that 6,000 years of man's existence will be completed in the mid-1970's. But these publications HAVE NEVER SAID THAT THE WORLD'S END WOULD COME THEN. Nevertheless, there has been considerable individual speculation on the matter. So the assembly presentation "Why We Have Not Been Told ‘That Day and Hour'" was very timely. It emphasized that we do not know the exact time when God will bring the end."--w74 10/15 p. 635

You will notice that this appeared in the Watchtower at the end of 1974 and it was referring to what all Witnesses heard at their conventions that summer. So the facts are that anyone who was saying that Armageddon was definitely going to come by 1975 just was not listening carefully. They were doing what critics still do; rip statements out of context and selectively choose only what they want out of the literature.

I was baptized in 1966 so I was there in 1975 and it had absolutely no effect on me nor anyone in my very large family. The reason that it had no effect on 99.9% of Witnesses is because most were listening to what was really being said and not speculating. They were NOT saying that the end would come in 1975.

The truth is that from the start of discussions on 1975, JWs were told not to speculate on what may or may not happen. For some, it was a real test as to why they were JWs. Was it because of a date to save their necks or were they JWs because they loved and appreciated the Truth and Jehovah?


The year 1975 can be calculated from the prophecies in Daniel and confirmed by the events foretold by Christ. This interpretation is in complete agreement with standard rules of exegesis. So the Witnesses’ teaching on 1975 and our being in the “end times” of wicked human society is completely scriptural.

What was said by Witnesses in the ‘60's and ‘70's is still true: the end is still near and we should live our lives performing “holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, awaiting and keeping close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah” (2Pet.3:11,12).

From 1914 onward, ALL the facets of the "sign" denoting the “end times” have escalated to an unprecedented degree worldwide (Mt.24:3ff). No other time in history has seen all these things come on one generation in such overwhelming measure. Combining this with the Bible chronology’s pointing to 1975 being about 6,000 years since man’s creation proves beyond any doubt that the world has entered its time of the end!


 There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world....

Well this just shows that people may not always understand the language they speak. The basic dictionary definitions of power as a noun are:
"the ability or capacity to do something or act in a particular way"
or
"the ability or capacity to direct or influence the behaviour of others or the course of events"
This seems to concur reasonably with some of the thought behind related Bible words. e.g. the Hebrew word koʹach is translated “power”; gevu·rahʹ, “mightiness”; and ʽoz, “strength.” The Greek dyʹna·mis is translated both “power” and “powerful works,” as the context makes appropriate.
Patently then, as an attribute of the true God, who alone is Almighty in power, this cannot be synonymous with the Holy Spirit for which different expressions are used both in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.
Therefore your suggestion that "the words in Acts 10:38 "anointed with the Holy Spirit and with power" makes the idea that the Holy Spirit is a mere "force" or "attribute" as redundant,  "anointing with power and power"(?)" is actually incorrect. These words cannot be construed as meaning an "anointing with power and power". Your attribution of such a concept to the current teaching or beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses is also false.
 

Cos:
You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic .. and it's possibly only because you do not understand what is generally referred to a "figures of speech".
When you hear on the News that North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb ... no they didn't. The MILITARY of North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb (if true).
If the news says "The White House today said that this action will NOT be tolerated !'"  The building itself did not actually say anything at all.  The building is recognized as a symbol of the will of the President and his administration.,
In the scriptures giving personification to a force as a person ... like Reddy Kilowatt, or the HOLY SPIRIT, is what is known as a "Metonymy".  It's a subset of a "Synecdoche", which is a subset of a "Metaphor" 
After all ... what's a meta phor?  *coff"*
This is what Wikipedia has to say about that: (bold type added by me)
" Synecdoche is a rhetorical trope and a type of figurative speech similar to metonymy, a figure of speech in which a term that denotes one thing is used to refer to a related thing. Indeed, synecdoche is sometimes considered a subclass of metonymy. It is more distantly related to other figures of speech, such as metaphor.[6]
More rigorously, metonymy and synecdoche can be considered subspecies of metaphor, intending metaphor as a type of conceptual substitution (as Quintilian does in Institutio oratoria Book VIII). In Lanham's Handlist of Rhetorical Terms,[7] the three terms have somewhat restrictive definitions, arguably in tune with a certain interpretation of their etymologies from Greek:
Metaphor: changing a word from its literal meaning to one not properly applicable but analogous to it; assertion of identity rather than likeness, as with simile. Metonymy: substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc. Classification
Synecdoche is often used as a type of personification by attaching a human aspect to a nonhuman thing. It is used in reference to political relations, including "having a footing", to mean a country or organization is in a position to act, or "the wrong hands", to describe opposing groups, usually in the context of military power.
The two main types of synecdoche are microcosms and macrocosms. A microcosm is when a part of something is used to refer to the entirety.An example of this would be someone saying that they “need a hand" with a project, when they really need the entire person.   A macrocosm is the opposite, when the entire structure of something is used to refer to a small part.  An example of this could be referring to "the world", when the speaker really means a certain country or part of the world. The figure of speech is divided into the image (what the speaker uses to refer to something) and the subject (what is being referred to).
This type of reference is quite common in politics. The residence of an executive is often credited for the executive's action. A spokesperson of the Executive Office of the President of the United States is identified in "The White House announced a new plan to reduce hunger." References to the King or Queen of the United Kingdom are made in the same fashion by referring to today's official residence, Buckingham Palace. Worldwide examples include "the Sublime Porte" of the Ottoman Empire, and "the Kremlin" of Russia.
Sonnets and other forms of love poetry frequently use synecdoches to characterize the beloved in terms of individual body parts rather than a coherent whole. This practice is especially common in the Petrarchan sonnet, where the idealised beloved is often described part by part, from head to toe.
It is also popular in advertising. Since synecdoche uses a part to represent a whole, its use requires the audience to make associations and "fill in the gaps", engaging with the ad by thinking about the product. Moreover, catching the attention of an audience with advertising is often referred to by advertisers as "getting eyeballs", another synecdoche. Synecdoche is very common in spoken English, especially in reference to sports. The names of cities are used as shorthand for their sports teams to describe events and their outcomes, such as "Denver won Monday's game", when it would be more accurate that a sports team from the city won the game.[
Kenneth Burke (1945), an American literary theorist, declared that in rhetoric the four master tropes, or figures of speech, are metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony. Burke's primary concern with these four master tropes is not simply their figurative usage but their role in the discovery and description of the truth. He described synecdoche as “part of the whole, whole for the part, container for the contained, sign for the thing signified, material for the thing made… cause for the effect, effect for the cause, genus for the species, species for the genus". In addition, Burke suggests that synecdoche patterns can include reversible pairs such as disease-cure. Burke proclaimed the noblest synecdoche is found in the description of microcosm and macrocosm" since microcosm is related to macrocosm as part to the whole, and either the whole can represent the part or the part can represent the whole".[15] Burke also compared synecdoche with the concept of "representation", especially in the political sense in which elected representatives stand in pars pro toto for their electorate.
Part referring to whole (pars pro toto)
Referring to people according to a single characteristic: "the gray beard" representing an older man or "the long hair" representing a hippie Referring to a large group of related peoples according to the proper name of one subgroup: Eskimos instead of Native Alaskans; Caucasians instead of Europeans or Whites Describing a complete vehicle as "wheels" referring to a vehicle's manual transmission by the control handle ("stick shift" or "stick") referring to the whole vehicle by the transmission control handle ("can you drive a stick?") Referring to people by a particular body part. For example, "head count" or "counting noses" Saying "bubbly" to refer to Champagne or any other sparkling wine Using "Arabian sands" to refer the Arabian deserts Using "ivories" to refer to a piano (particularly in the phrase "tickling the ivories", meaning to play the piano), by a pair of synecdoches: the piano designated by its part, the keys, which in turn were historically made of ivory He asked for her hand in marriage. Using "boba" to refer to the drink, Bubble tea General class name used to denote specific member of that or associated class
Using "the good book" or "The Book" for the Bible ("Bible" itself comes from the Greek word for "book") Describing any four-wheel drive vehicle (including long-haul trailers, etc.) as a "truck" In the phrase, "He's good people", the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people (a single person) "The pill" is used to refer to 28-pill packets of the combined oral contraceptive pill, a common birth control method Specific class name referring to general set of associated things
"John Hancock" used in the United States, for the signature of any person A genericized trademark, for example "Coke" for any variety of cola (or for any variety of soft drink, as in the southern United States), "Band-Aid" for any variety of adhesive bandage, or "Styrofoam" for any product made of expanded polystyrene A "Rube Goldberg (or Heath Robinson) contraption" to refer to any machine which seems overly complicated or bizarrely constructed Referring to material actually or supposedly used to make something
"brass" for brass instruments, or the shell casings of bullet cartridges "cement" for concrete, cement being just the binder in concrete "glasses" for spectacles "armor" for tanks "paper" for a journal article or newspaper "pigskin" for an American or Canadian football "plastic" for a credit card "steel" for a sword "strings" for string instruments "threads" for clothing "tin" for a container made with tin plating Container is used to refer to its contents
"barrel" for a barrel of oil "keg" for a keg of beer "He drank the cup", to refer to his drinking of the cup's contents " If the "White House" actually started talking .. I suspect people would be running out of all exits ...  but that is the expression.
GET USED TO IT.
Perhaps I am different than most Jehovah's Witnesses ... and although JWs are often represented as a monolithic  group of marching robots, that is not always true ... my guess is more than half would not agree with anything that violated their concept of plain old common sense, even though they would not press any points for fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy.
Among most people ..... there is truly infinite variety.
I became one of Jehovah's witnesses FIRST ... because it made sense ... it agreed with the real world ... I did not have to stretch my perception of the Universe into a pretzel.  The theology AGREED WITH PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.  I did not join because I agreed with them ... but because they agreed with ME.
OK ... now, lets look at the two scriptures you quoted  -  I always like to put it in context with what went before, and what is stated after a cited scripture, to see if someone is trying to lead me up the creek to booger's woods.
Isaiah 6:6-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is [a]forgiven.”
8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people:
‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive;
Keep on looking, but do not understand.’
10 “Render the hearts of this people [b]insensitive,
Their ears [c]dull,
And their eyes [d]dim,
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
Hear with their ears,
Understand with their hearts,
And return and be healed.”
11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered,
“Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant,
Houses are without people
And the land is utterly desolate,
12 “The Lord has removed men far away,
And the [e]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land."
OK...fine scripture ... but it is only your OPINION that it relates to this discussion. 
Here's a clue for you Cos ... IT DON'T !
Acts 28:23-30New International Version (NIV)
23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet:
26 “‘Go to this people and say,
“You will be ever hearing but never understanding;
    you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.”
27 For this people’s heart has become calloused;
    they hardly hear with their ears,
    and they have closed their eyes.
Otherwise they might see with their eyes,
    hear with their ears,
    understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.’[a]
28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b]
30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him."
From your viewpoint , this is a "worst case scenario" ... here we have another example of a synecdoche ... as the men received what they heard by inspiration due to an UN-NAMED force.
But here is the clincher, which makes the most common sense .... "HOLY SPIRIT" IS NOT A PERSONAL NAME, ANY MORE THAN GAMMA RADIATION HAS A GOOD FRIEND NAMED "WENDY".
It's "something", for sure, but NOT A PERSONAL NAME.
When Jehovah wants to accomplish something fro 30 billion light years away ... there HAS to be a force carrier ... a DIRECTED force carrier, to make things happen at OUR END OF THE UNIVERSE.
If you want to get a tan .. you use UV radiation that comes from the Sun, at this end.
If you want God's blessing, you try to be the recipient of directed "Holy Spirit", at this end.
Casper is a name FOR A SPIRIT, ....... but only The Farce will be with you.
That's why "Casper the Friendly Ghost" was a COMIC BOOK.
ps:  And Casper DID have a friend ... Wendy the Witch.
.
 

It is ?
In this forum the burden of proof is on you.
You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic, but I am willing to give you another chance at redemption from conviction by your own hand.
PROVE IT!

Dear Witness.
unfortunately, I cannot be as aggressive and salty with my comments as you can. So, I'm restricted to my comments. I believe my remark of being rude still carries to your response.
I believe one of my posts was deleted for an unknown reason that had nothing to do with violating any civil conduct, other than having that authority to do so.
I do respectfully disagree with your assessment. Further understanding of logistics would carry over to accountability and responsibility.
Consider this,
The condition, wherein a person is expected to take ownership of one's actions or decisions, is called accountability. Responsibility refers to the obligation to perform the delegated task. ... Responsibility is assigned whereas accountability is accepted. The origin of responsibility is the assigned authority.
http://keydifferences.com/difference-between-responsibility-and-accountability.html

WT literature are flip-flop these question in few past decades. They say they will go to heaven before, after, some will stay some will go .... and then circling around the same ideas again.

They are going to heaven of course, but they aren't doing an irresponsible runner like those ones who slipped off to Tartarus all those years ago.
Oh dear..but you are right..so many questions....At least I can't see "Are we there yet? in among them................
Seriously, just because we are taking "firm hold of the robe of a Jew'" (Zech.8:23),  we must not get the idea we are going to get through Armageddon by "riding on  our parent's coat tails" as it were. This will be no "walk in the park", regardless of the admonition at 2Chr.20:17.
We need the determination of Habbakuk as recorded at Hab.3:16-19. That includes facing the possibility that "[the] flock may actually be severed from [the] pen" (NWT 1984). We may well have to rely solely on our informed relationship with Jehovah at times, but I am sure that not one of Jehovah's people will be "left in the lurch", (NWT1984), when the time comes.
It is not for now to tell the story of our salvation in detail, because it has not yet occurred. But rest assured, if we continue to follow the directions that have led us up until now, then we will echo in real time, (not only in prophecy), the words of Habbakuk who said: "Yet, as for me, I will exult in Jehovah himself; I will be joyful in the God of my salvation" Hab.3:18.

Dear Srecko
When have you seen the POPE be undiplomatic in public? Why do people in general move from being a Catholic to being a Protestant or Mormon?
There is nothing funny when serving God, and teaching others to serve God by scripture. This is not a nice attitude of any person willing to discuss scripture.

Thanks for your 'sane' perspective -  very true, just like satan they are pure evil - but it is going against the nature of God and the way we were created...... there must be serious mental affects after their decisions...to be serial murderers like satan.
In England and some European states the sex crime rings are getting away with serious crimes against children. The governments are following the 'pressure' of the UN and EU and are using their limited police resources to "police" the internet.  Not to catch sex crime rings on the dark net but to monitor the general public who visit far right web sites or extremist web sites and those who say anything about a certain faith which 'believes it to be their duty' to bomb people into submission.  Quite a large number of people have already been taken into custody and face charges for posting stupid stuff on Facebook.
This is the level of injustice going on in the world - and the truly wicked are getting a free pass. And then people quote totally bias 'old studies' which were done by suspiciously bias people  for the sole purpose to show that Witnesses have serious mental issues - really?
Woke up this morning and thought about that "sea of humankind" in Isaiah 57... "20 But the wicked are like the troubled sea, when it cannot rest, whose waters cast up mire and dirt."
I work in a massive field which is really like a volatile, stormy sea.... one has to really keep on going and just sound the warning without hoping for much success. Every one needs to be warned.  Yesterday's bombing of 305 people dead in Egypt  -  305 families lost their father and livelihood! and many more injured...  To me these incidents are extremely heart breaking because of the social construct those wives and children face extreme hardship!
It is Muslim killing Muslim ......and yet when you mention something like this there is just excuses, excuses...   The mental condition of the entire world is seriously ill!!   There is no more logic thinking or common sense in any sphere of life..... and the worst is still to come...
When the next generation in the West starts to vomit up more 'mire" from the sea of insane "post-modern" philosophy, which is now responsible for so much problems at the universities and many militant clashes, then we will see the next phase of the world condition of human insanity.......we ain't seen nothing yet.
 

There are people that are as sane as anybody ... but completely EVIL ...sometimes whole nations of people. Much pure EVIL is done for reasons that are rational (to the perpetrator).  It just seems to be insane ... to those who are not evil.
 

Thank you to the other contributors.
@Gone Fishing has presented excellent reasoning, @JW Insider counter reasoning, @TrueTomHarley realized all too soon this might me one of my "rants" that I don't raise anywhere else and that it could be the next topic for a letter to the GB that I never send, @Noble Berean went straight to the heart of the matter. Thankfully this post has been spared JTR's cartoons because maybe he has not discovered it yet, @Nana Fofana hit the bottle, Allen et al resorted to personal attacks and apportioning down votes left right and center.....so nothing new there, and last but not least Srecko with his obviously biased interpretation, and Bar Avaddhon with his complex interpretations and sometimes difficult to understand discourse but that is not his fault, Google translator needs to do a better job.
I don't have time right now, but when I do I would like to reply to individual posters in more detail...

This is an honest and commendable assessment, particularly in  that your opinion is not unique.
It was clearly expressed at the time of Moses, and differs little from what was said then about Jehovah's way of guiding his people. I'll only cite the one example.
"So they gathered together against Moses and Aaron and said to them: “We have had enough of you! The whole assembly is holy, all of them, and Jehovah is in their midst. Why, then, should you exalt yourselves above the congregation of Jehovah?" Num.16:3.
 

Dear Srecko
Consider the many changes Christendom has made, after the death of our Lord Jesus Christ. Has, the JW community changed scripture? or its understanding of scripture. These changes will continue as God provides clarity to those that are willing to accept and obey his commandments.

We are not talking about these "parables". In fact IS IT any of illustrations, stories in the Bible -"THE PARABLES" at all?????? 
Parables as GB used in the past before they changed a view on Bible text - type and anti-type interpretations. Well also the "parables" are included in this changed position of GB scholars, i suppose :)))