Srecko Sostar

After judgment day (Armageddon) JW waiting, all people will stay to be sinful ..... for at least 1000 years :))

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About - No one has any right to questioning His action. I think how you made wrong conclusion on this. When satan and after Adam and Eve "questioned" JHVH actions, it is interesting how God, you want to defend with this few resolute statements, done in fact opposite of your conclusions. How? God not punished none because of "questioning Him and His actions or rules". In fact JHVH allowed them and many other people after them to addressing "questions" of all sort. Until today. And God not show any animosity to Questioner or to Questions. He is displeased with some bad deeds of human, but that doesn't mean how He waiting to judging your thoughts and words, even against Him. He have more understanding for people and their questions than you showed in your personal presentation and mediating for God and in defending His Honor in simple sentence statement above. I would be pleased that God "wipe out" bad things and people who in purposely evil mind doing those evils to others. But in same time, I do questioning God's waiting, and many more. Because, too many people and children and animals suffer (suffered in the past) because of His "waiting". And if He decide to "wipe out entire earth", as you give suggestion that He might, ... so how that helps to prove - you are right and I am wrong ?? :))))

When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place. 2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. 3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. - Acts 2 very visual effects :)))

Sin vs Crime Picture can look as this version 1: JW members in Russia committed no Sin against nobody....., In version 2, picture is changed by Bible verses: JW members done Crime against Secular Authority who Governed with JHVH permission and against what God set in place .... And by that committed a Sin against God. ... So Jesus told them, “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which is from God. The authorities that exist have been appointed by God. Consequently, the one who resists authority is opposing what God has set in place, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. In version 3, picture is changed by next Bible verse: But Peter and the other apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than men. In version 4, picture is paint by GB decisions and interpretations in particular case. for example: Mexico, Malawi, Bulgaria, Russia, etc.

In the old days, people used to travel in various ways, and there were roads and also city streets. However, I do not remember that there is a divine law on traffic in the Bible or in other Jewish scriptures. :)) So, if the law did not describe or prescribe something, then that particular thing does not exist neither as a sin nor as a crime. :)) As the Bible speaks of divine law, which is a completely different category from secular law (no matter what they punished and some of the same actions by people), then we could still say that the words sin and crime have different origins and meanings. No divine law says whether or not a car driver can drive down the street and at what speed. Because of this, people, not God, have passed traffic regulations and laws. This human law has no concept of sin but an offense (traffic violation) and some others deal with concept of crime, not with sin. Bible spoke about Secular Authority who carry "sword" and punishing violators of the Human Law, not of Divine Law. Of course, various human societies made changes through centuries and abandon biblical concept of "sin" in general, but they adopted the term "crime". Perhaps because, religion and state have to be separated. And for that reason, JW Church was called to clear problems (especially actual issue of various child molestation made by members to other members) because of clerical ideas about elder-member privilege communication, two witness rule, Judicial Committees as Parallel Legislative System to "worldly" Legislative and similar. This sort/way of solving inside problems as religion community coming from Concept of Sin. On other side, JW Church as Institution, was not showed much will to report such "sinful crime" because they, generally, made distinction between "sin" and "crime". They decided how elders are appointed to deal only with "sins", but Secular Authority with "crimes", and even if it is the same act. (Richard Ashe ....

I just said how terminology in JW Church is more, often based on word "sin". In NWT Bible there is only one single word in whole book with wording - "crime". In Luke 23:4 where Pilate, as non Jew, supposedly, using word "crime". Some other translations using word "crime" on various places in Bible. I just noticed how word "sin" is more popular and somehow prevailed in JW spiritual, everyday vocabulary. sin noun [ C/U ] US /sɪn/ an act of breaking a religious law, or such acts considered together: [ C ] In most religions, stealing is regarded as a sin. A sin is also anything considered wrong: [ C ] It is not a sin to drop your kid off at soccer practice and stay in the car to read a book. UK /sɪn/ US /sɪn/ C2 the offence of breaking, or the breaking of, a religious or moral law: crime noun [ C/U ] US /krɑɪm an action or activity that is against the law, or illegal activity generally People say something is a crime if it is wrong illegal activities , an illegal act

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire Well, by this verse and what you have said perhaps Jesus thought about such model of Baptism? And not with water?

I can understand what you said, but IF Words are not spoken (in one way or another) than it is opposite to Jesus command :))

According to reports on Jesus baptism, it is ok with your or anyone else's memory that it is impossible to recall such thing :))). Perhaps somebody else on forum can explain similarity and differences on Baptisms made by John and all later Baptisms made by Jesus's Followers. After Jesus's Resurrection they have been instructed HOW to do Baptism. One element of John's way of baptism obviously continued - immersing in water. Also, as i recall, John proclaims baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin, and says another will come after him who will not baptize with water, but with the Holy Spirit. Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.....and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins. - Mat 3 After desert temptations: From that time Jesus began to proclaim, (not disciples) “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near ...Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the good news[d] of the kingdom and curing every disease and every sickness among the people. - Mat 4 Then Jesus summoned his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to cure every disease and every sickness..... These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Go nowhere among the Gentiles, and enter no town of the Samaritans,6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim the good news,(not doing baptism) ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near. - Mat 10 His disciples came and took the body (John the Baptist) and buried it; then they went and told Jesus. - Mat 14 After Resurrection: And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything that I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.” - Mat 28 Well, nothing pro et contra, just chronological line on who said what to who :))

PS because of my English :)) ... know when Organization as Worldly Company shows greater influence, power over Organization as Spiritual Paradise and vice versa.

Rank and file members aka publishers or in simple words - worldwide brotherhood, are connected spiritually with each other and with God as group of Organized Christians who are bond with particular set of doctrines, beliefs and hope. In that sense, all relations between them have big "spiritual" aspects. Inside them, as a group, all dealings they have among them, are in some sort of "spiritual" work, reactions (of course with all physical inputs and outputs, after all we are flesh and blood and bones). Hierarchical structure of "theocracy" appointed elders (semi clerical body) to deal/work with brotherhood. In WT Society, Lawyers have very significant role. Their dealings with people works in both reality. One reality is with outside world and "worldly people". Another reality is of "spiritual" nature inside "Spiritual Paradise" when they counsel elders, for example, how to respond in "sins" that outside reality considers to be "crime" or what documents bring to Court and what to tell. Inside reality speak only about sin. Sin is "spiritual" term. JW Church consider bad acts as sins, not a crimes. Because Spiritual Judicial System of JW Church accepting only Bible terminology. In this (Bible) reality, word "crime" not existing. What exists is "sin". For that purpose WT Lawyers must explain to elders what is what and how sins inside JW organization have to be explained to "worldly" reality. WT Lawyers have special attitude on JW members. For them, they are only rank and file members. They, members, representing nobody and nothing, except their personal beliefs (beliefs determined by WT Society spiritual revelations of Bible doctrines) in God. Although JW members not representing any of Corporative Entities of WT Society, what also including Congregation he/she visiting regularly, they, as members have some sort of Free Contractual Relation with Legal Entity/Entities. That special relation coming from "Yes" on Second Baptismal Question: 2) “Do you understand that your baptism identifies you as one of Jehovah’s Witnesses in association with Jehovah’s organization?” (from 2019) (2) Do you understand that your dedication and baptism identify you as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in association with God's spirit-directed organization? (from 1985) As Group of Organized Christians in Organization that has diversity of Companies with different names, they (members) receiving instructions for Christian life, not only from "spiritual" leaders aka GB and elders inside Spiritual Paradise. But members receiving instructions (in this way or another) from WT Lawyers too, who run life of many Companies/Corporations under different names (Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, is one of names). Well in that sense, verse you bring ..... The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. ..... is interesting. WT Lawyers playing, walking between this two Realities. In that context (Dualism of sort) it would be very important to know when Organization as Worldly Company is stronger than Organization as Spiritual Paradise and vice versa.

If you don't mind for connecting this two comments. "Baptism" of this man is done because he want to "dedicate" (guess) himself to God - spiritually , not to WT Society. But - factually, he made sort of "Contract, in corporative language, with WT Society through WT Representative who immersed him in water. Well, if God accepted his dedication, despite fact he has two wife's (perhaps he was repentant all the time, but he chooses second wife) than his baptism, spiritually is valid. But second (hidden) part of his "dedication" - to WT Society - is in question, and that sort of "dedication" has been possible to delete in Administrative manner, because he also was hiding some important information.

Yes, i recall period of time when baptizer said those words, .. in the name of.... , to candidate in the moments, seconds before immersing him/her.

Thanks for respond. I am interested to see some Bible quotes where people who wrote verses, about issue we talking, made self claims of their own "inspiration", or if other people claimed this for them, how in moments when speaking and or writing this verses they have been "inspired", ... what ever this word have meant to them before or to us today?

I found this yesterday. Baptismal questions from ANNOUNCEMENTS AND REMINDERS May 2019 (section FOR THE ELDERS ONLY).

Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations,+ baptizing them+ in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, - Mat 28:19 nwt WT Society have changed few times, in last 140 years, baptismal questions. Also they stopped to respect, obey Jesus command quoted above. At some moment (perhaps about 1970's , please correct this guessing if it is wrong) JW person who immersing new member into water doing that silently. They do not repeat this Jesus words while baptizing "disciples". What do you think about this? Whether the absence of spoken words (in the name of ....) is the reason why such baptism would be considered invalid? Or, that is not matter?

I see that you are in line with motto of Convention "Love never Fails" :)) I saw some faces of JW bro and sis when dfd person is near, and i have not noticed "sparkling eyes because of love". Perhaps some problem was in those JW bros and sis ?? :)))))

Dear Sir, you list here many verses from first century Christian writers and only one verse is from Jesus. It is interesting to me that in Mat 18:17 Jesus never commanded Shunning, Ignoring, Avoiding and similar as it is practice in JW Church. Jesus said; let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector". Now our task is to found out HOW Jesus TREATED such persons?! People of nations, and other that was "Questionable" (tax collectors, sinners, etc): While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. - Mark 2 One of them, when he saw he was healed, came back, praising God in a loud voice. 16 He threw himself at Jesus’ feet and thanked him—and he was a Samaritan. - Luke 17 The Samaritan woman said to him, “You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?” (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a]) - John 4 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”.... Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment. - Mat 15l When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed,suffering terribly.” Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?” - Mat 8 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b]But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?” - Luke 10 You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[b] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. - Mat 5 By this examples, Bible verses are also CLEAR how to treat people who are not of JW sort. Once again, how to treat individuals who are not any longer JW member - "let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector" Just as. Nothing about all those animosity feelings and shunning described by Bible Writers. Well, who would you Listen, Obey and Imitate? JESUS? or Bible Writers? Well, we need MORE ANGELS of view :))))

oh dear :))) well i am troublemaker .... but you may/can say - judge, how this woman is less guilty than this man ? Than why in Bible is said how both sins (sinners) have to be punished by dead penalty? In OT and in NT? New Moral View ? :))) Or we can IMITATE Jesus dealing with sinners and to speak: Go, and sin no more. So, why to form Judicial Committee when all can be simplified and less stressful for all involved, by few words: Go, and sin no more.

Thanks for respond Billy. Do you like this answer about difference: Worldly people are under power of satan, as Bible said. They are Led by bad spirit and doing this same thing. JW people are under power of JHVH, and have Spiritual Paradise, as WT Society said. They are Led by JHVH spirit and doing the same thing. We here have two different reasons/causes but same result = Shunning of those who are not, which are not acceptable. Do you have some explanation? I agree about all angles :))

Yes, ok. JW son who is in fact homosexual, but maybe say how he does not practicing homosexuality, can stay with his JW parents in their home and be full JW member in congregation as any other. You speaking and about such things too ? :)) JW Church made that to be Legal. What would his parents decide out of congregation? Or if they are out of JW Church?

I guess how JW Mother want to help her Daughter too, but after she and her husband decide to not give daughter a room in their house, also decide not to talk to her by phone. So, one punishment (physical) is not enough. After, they decide to continue with emotional and psychical penalty. Or, perhaps you would go with idea to forming Ghetto for JW dfd people who failed in sexual morality. Drug addicts JW can be in separate Ghetto, etc etc. :))

I know. Both side spoke of their demands and condition to stay at home. They not found common, compromised solution, so they have had separate, left each other in bad emotions. As long someone has father and mother, he/she is their child. Minor or Adult. Well, in that sense Public Lesson gave in video drama on Convention is not question of legal or illegal stuff. It is question/issue of religious doctrine inside family circle. And about choice of what sort of moral standards is good for members of particular religion. JW are not unique in this standard of shunning. But here we can see how moral standards are softer today, even in JW religion which is based on Bible Standards. One of standards for true worshiper, for many centuries, was to neutralized all those inside who are not living by Law. Children or adults. Today JW Church does not apply some of those parts of Bible Law. But they apply some other parts from same books of Bible and find some basics or principles in such commands with some modifications that can be used in Modern Societies and under Modern Laws. With possibility how those measures, that is in some sort of moratorium for now, will be in power in the future, perhaps. Some past quotes in WT magazine giving such impressions, or at least gave sound of sorrow how such way of punishment is not possible to practice because of Secular Laws in this Millennium. What was Legal in Moses period is not today (perhaps in some Sharia law lands it is). So, Legal is changeable stuff, also as Moral is too. Blood Issue and Fraction rules (even for Public Daily use before Secular authorities) mentioned in comments, proves how terms - Moral and Legal - is/are not Firm Standard even in JW Church.

WT Lawyer would use only such Bible verses about dfd to not put WT Society in more worse position. I guess, how using 2 Tim 2:17 will open another issue, about doctrines, and that is not of interest to Court. Court is not interested to waste their time on "empty talking about doctrines and teachings" Do not get involved in foolish discussions about spiritual pedigrees or in quarrels and fights about obedience to Jewish laws. These things are useless and a waste of time. Titus 3:9 :)))) But if WT lawyer would like to explain and give Scriptural evidence, for example, WHAT Bible verse said, how is completely justified for JW member/parents, and that it is LEGAL to refuse to answer on daughter phone call ....that will be very interesting. After all, Scriptures was made for one particular nation in one particular time. Some General principles on human behavior, how we as people must respect other people, can be found on other places too (in human conscience as first place, for example). Religious matters, doctrines and similar theological questions is not of prime interest for Courts,..... maybe in Russia it is :))) Shunning on private level is understandable. Shunning on Organizational level in forms of Organizational Dictate and with rules in details (under treat of punishment if you disobey) call on alarm. And that is something that WT lawyer would not be able to defend so easy - with or without Bible verses.