Srecko Sostar

:)) sin is sin and it has to be punished by OT Law. If i cut your hand, and no matter about am i repent or no, law said i have to give my hand for your hand.  After Jesus died, NT give no command what to do if i cut your hand. But NT said that secular governments will regulate that issue and give answer about it. NT said "only this" - forgive your brother. How many times - seven, seventy seven and more. But if make you happy, please continue on insist on explanation about "repentance and deliberate or undeliberate sin". Comparing to Jesus advice about sin and forgiving -your theory is weak. Well, to what/which legal solution belonged Peters sin? To OT or NT?    What is this? People who have holy spirit are not sinful and can not make sin? :))))  But you explained in your previous posts that people whose repent is genius and sincere would never repeat a sin for which they had already expressed repentance. Because if they sin again, as you said, they will thus reject Jesus sacrifice. So again, what you would done with Peter?? He made sin, than regret and repent. Next hour he made same sin again and again showed regret and repentance. Then after one hour he again made same sin and again regret and show repentance for the same sin. You defend Peter and have excuses for him, but with your interpretations on Bible and subject, you support opposite stand. Are Peter your protege, your favorite bible character and you show him more mercy and compassion then to someone else in history or in present life?? :))))))) because you said:" It was a mistake (3 times) from human weakness - not a deliberate sin." Sin vs. mistake :)))))))))) very good words playing. For those who not reading your text carefully you maybe would succeed  in deceive.    You again want to be Judge of people's hearts and minds and told me that you (or your JW elders) have ability to recognize, 100 percent, when some person acting deliberately in some sin. You want to assure me that you and JW elders can indicate what repentance is sincere and what is not. It is interesting to talk with you but if you continue this way i do not know how would i be able to handle with such "divinity" doctrines Â

"Kingdom Halls and Bethel Around the World ? – Beautiful! Thank you Jehovah They Beautify Your Name! ???" They Beautify Your Name?? How you even think that man made buildings beautify JHVH name? Are you out of your mind? Blasphemy  Some of those KH was sold to false religions (in recent years problems about money in WT) after has been devoted to JHVH at the opening ceremony. And now "false teachers" from Babylon the great have service in there. Or some business firm working in there. Or some other "worldly" people operate in there. Who can assure you that this KH and Bethels would not be sold in next corporate reorganization process of WT, according to news on Annual Meeting? How would this buildings BEAUTIFY His name then?? At last, sisters can serve as ministerial servants :)) ... finally. Future will bring more changes :)) Elderese coming, heehe

The apostle Peter denied Christ three times. He repeated same sin, gross sin, three times in the same day... or night, whatever. Would you forgive him according to your doctrinal explanation of Bible verses you provide in your posts?

Clear and simple. "This sin is not covered." What sin? "Deliberately rejecting the Savior." How and Why deliberately? "After knowing the truth of forgiveness." Wake up my "not friend"! Â

error of double post

What are you talking about. Jesus was in 1 century. If you count by this than people who lived before Jesus sacrifice are not among "unrighteous" because as you claim "had not chance to learn about Jesus". How can they learn about Jesus at all, when he was not been born yet???

One who do not love (or show love, as you quote) are breaking Gods command and by that have already made a sin (big, great sin). So according to this all those people in the past who has done such things will never be resurrected?? But Bible said that God will resurrect "righteous and unrighteous"  ?!    ?????????? You are confused. It is about REJECTING JESUS AS SAVIOR. "If anyone sins deliberately by rejecting the Savior after knowing the truth of forgiveness, this sin is not covered by ChristÂ’s death;"  How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? Â

and you obey that every single day? never have been sinned? :)) "If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

nice

If it would be permitted to me say this way - God already become "loser" at the moment when spiritual creations (angels) and earthly creations (humans) rejected Him.  Analogy: WT said how JW members not need to try to "fix" this World, because it is predestined to destruction in Armagedon. But at the same time, they said how JHVH done everything to fix that same World by his mercy, left Adam and Eve to live and have children, giving His son to die for sinners of this World. Waiting to JWorg preaching ministry and after that he will finally make solution :))   And you, Anna and Arauna have problem with "sinners" inside JWorg and those who are outside. By the way you judged other God will judge you. So please continue with your perception about self-righteous and minimized your own "sins" whatever they are, "big or small". Big or small according JWorg teaching, because you adopted such understanding of sin and repentance. Instead of being grateful that Jesus' sacrifice covers every one of yours, our sins - single one or repeated one - you try to put own righteous and judgement above Jesus sacrifice. How can you be so unreasonable?  Cutting the branch you're sitting on! Or you are not aware of your own repeated sins?    Â

If somebody today made a "sin" and after that come to the state of repentance and god forgive him, he is free from that sin. If tomorrow he made new"sin" of same kind or another kind and after that come to the state of repentance and god forgive him, he is free from that sin. Answer Yes or No have to come from Above not from me :)))))))))) please read Bible more frequently and mediate, it will be helpful... maybe. :))))))))

you are very polite person when you tell, "please". I am giving you  + for that But you also said, "I want a yes or no answer". I am giving you - for that Â

Of course He desires this. But if you go to "for elders eye only - Shepherd book" you will see how term, concept "repentance" have many human explanations, rules, elements about how to "recognize" is it particular repentance real repentance, from bro or sis who are confronted with elders and/or judicial committee. Here i can comment on your next thought when you wrote... Here we have again, that people in own understanding of Gods standard made their interpretation/s on what is "standards" in case of "repentance" and made rules, list on this - what look like real, genuine, sincere repentance. Here we have; 1) man made models of how must repentance look like, and 2) you have few humans who make decision/s for you on their personal, subjective interpretations about how you, as sinner in front them, looks like, do you show "enough" repentance that is "visible" to them, elders. :))))

When I said how first Christians replicated old system i thought and try to show in comment, how apostles was under heavy impression and influence of Jew religious system and in the same time try to implement Jesus teachings and way of looking as they have understand. If i am wrong in this view then this Paul done is questionable and not by Christ who would not made compromise under pressure from people; Paul came to Derbe and then to Lystra, where a disciple named Timothy lived, whose mother was Jewish and a believer but whose father was a Greek. 2 The believers at Lystra and Iconium spoke well of him. 3 Paul wanted to take him along on the journey, so he circumcised him because of the Jews who lived in that area, for they all knew that his father was a Greek. Acts 16 Objective/end justifies the means? Paul returned to worthless Jewish law. There are still some "biblical" examples of double standards of deeds and teachings that "GB" and elders of that period have done. Do not ask of me to read Bible for you :)))))))

Jesus eat and drink and seat with his Jewish brothers and sisters who were "sinners", no matter are those people belonged to his domestic congregation of Nazareth or from some other congregation in country of Israel in 1 century. What are you think? With how many disfellowshiped Jew people, disfellowshiped by Jew priests and elders, Jesus made social contacts, talked, eat , said hello on streets, visited them in their homes ...despite condemnation and reproach he received by priesthood about such way of behavior Jesus showed to his disciples and to nowadays JW ?

You will, i hope, some day :))

Thanks Anna

In general, all names or labels, etiquette that have connections to Jesus way of teaching and living is given by people of 1. century or later. Jesus had not give any name to his own "movement". And if he organized something that has been, sending to preaching, nothing else.  No problem! But it is need to understand how first Christ followers, as Paul who wrote many things about "organizing" in fact imitate Jews congregation that God rejected in the same time. Because they, first christians, was in fact Jews people, and they technically replicate religious system in which they lived. I the same time they tried to integrate NEW Teachings from his Master. New teachings that has been "apostate teaching" according to Jewish Clergy and Mosaic Law.   You Anna make complain if I find only one example in Bible :))) Maybe i am not reading enough to find more examples, heehe. Ok, i have again just one bible report on this.  The evildoer who was hang beside Jesus have no one of preconditions that JW said is crucial for salvation. Bible study, changing bad deeds to good deeds, prayers, congregational meetings, baptism, going to preaching and many other rules and commands that has to be obeyed.. He do only one thing, just said; "I believe!" So if Jesus accepted just words why you or other JW teaching how this is not enough?      One report is enough if you believe that is inspired and truthful and that all Word is beneficial. OT and NT. I have permission to called it "old" because i as people from "Gentile" have no obligation to follow or to be in obey to  any of Mosaic law and command. So, i am free to consider and accept it or to be critical in my thinking about OT. The same is with NT also. Because, as i mentioned before, there is some "principles" or teachings that has their roots in OT congregations and Law. And as Jesus teaches, his disciples are not under obligation to obey and follow The Law. But in 1 century first congregation done just same mistake JW doing today, replicate OT Law in Christian congregation. It is little delicate to discuss on this because it is tricky to see what is problem in fact. And my english is not enough also. Thanks to all who are patient with my grammar and all mistakes in writing :))Â

Anna, if by "have to become Christians" you thought on obligation that person become part of organized religion, in your case JWorg, or in case of other believers, Catholic or Adventist and so on... than i will not be so sure about that. Even in case that somebody became member of "only true religion" aka JWorg, that not be assurance for salvation, as you very well quoted Jesus words, “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,Â’ ...” so we can come to conclusion that is Gods choice to whom he give "salvation", no matter is person or not part of JWorg. Yes i have one fine bible example to support my view. Naaman, commander of army, gentile, idol worshiper, get salvation from JHVH without any BUT in spiritual, religious or moral proviso. Only BUT was about in what river to take a bath. After that Naaman recognize JHVH as  "only God" but there is no report he became "proselyte", worshiper of JHVH, left his family or nation or position as commander. He has some conscious dilemmas, it is explained in 5:18, but even that this was not problem for JHVH that Naaman make worship to idols. JHVH never, according to Bible reports, say something against Naaman or give any conclusion about that matter. So, he gave freedom to us to made some conclusion :)))))     He have hard job Â

Those famous words about god's impartiality = rain and sun to all people. It is only a basic illustration that shows how God's impartiality is unlimited. And he does not look at race, social status, ...... and affiliation with religion. Why you skip religion???? Did not Jesus show impartiality in every way to "gentiles" to people of other religion?? How can you talk about impartiality of God and then you use word BUT??? If you are impartial then you can not be that with But. "I will help you but...I will love you but...I will take care of you but....I will give my life for you but.......Anna can you not see nonsense?  There is no impartiality if you set the condition, proviso, stipulation. Story about Samaritan going further in lightening what mean impartiality, to love people of other religion, nation, to showing compassion, doing good for stranger from you not expecting nothing in return. With other words, without any BUT. You rely too much on old patterns. You forget that Jesus changed all this. He brought completely different things. And you want to go back to what He left. He does not seek an organization. Jesus collects his flock. His flock is not in the church, in the building. His flock is not in organized religion. His instructions are not listed in the law, in the Charter of WT corporation or in Charter of every JW congregation, in the books, and in the journals and magazines. His "law", his spirit and love He writing directly in people's heart, not looking who is who. And when He touched person, "repentance", and not only repentance, will occur in that special, unique moment of very soul, in the time of silence or in a time of scream, in a time of tears or in a time of empties. And will change us. In this or that direction. Â

I am very sure how similar or the same view as you expressed with this sentence many other people have too. If "spiritual education that JW received in WTis the best in the World, than it would be expected, i would expected, higher level of contemplation and "spiritual maturity", and not so simplified "not my business" attitude. If you David, are one of JW then by WT and Bible teaching in NT you have to be interest in talking to people of opposite view and "argue" or as WT Reasoning book in it title have word , you need to "reasoning" with them and to help them and to rescue them from false religion and lies they think are true, from satan philosophy and wrong expectations of future. If you are not JW, receive my apologize. But nevertheless, are you or not JW, it is good for soul to develop more compassion and interest in people, at least, to have better understand of people behaviour :))) Here you need to have attitude "not my business". Because it is JHVH business to open people's mind and heart and NOT YOURS  it is of God's concern how people would interpret events in their lives. As it also case with JW members who interpret events in the way that suits to them. :))))))))  with help of GB. Is this really as far as you can go in mediate about God's impartiality??????????    Are you kidding me David? WT publications are full of experience about "worldly" people who prayed to "GOD" not knowing his name, not say "in Jesus name, amen", and not knowing nothing about "harmony in principles and plan", and Bible have examples too about people who prayed to God and He listen to them and helped them, despite how  they were "Gentiles". Ohhh man, if this "requirements", formalities which man has to satisfy before God in order that God could hear him, than all people who are not praying by JW model will never be heard by God, and they have never been heard in the past. Unbelievable :)))))))))))) Â

It is very nice that you put two translations of same verse, perhaps it will be good to use more of it. Because NWT have some err. it is not the same when NWT say - "obey your leaders" but Jesus said one is your leader, (so this is very big err in NWT), and if we hear "have confidence" NIV, but in all that one thing is more important - elders have to earn that trust from the people. BUT my prime reason to respond on your comment above was this: It is not matter if "one brings division into the church", in fact it is good to put on test and fire human doctrines, AND JESUS SUPPORT THAT TOO. YOU ASK HOW? READ THE BIBLE PLEASE. JESUS SAID: 34 “Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn “‘a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law— 36 a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household.’ 37 “Anyone who loves their father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves their son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 Whoever does not take up their cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds their life will lose it, and whoever loses their life for my sake will find it. – Jesus (Matthew 10:34-38) According to this i am afraid that you are not familiar with "bible principles, prophesies, teachings and many more". :))))

I'm sorry, but I think that the view JW members has on these and similar events is under the influence of GB leadership and their interpretation of events to the public with help of JWTV and publications. JW members are very much constrained by their own lives in the WT Corporation and do not see how other people suffer because of religious beliefs too, whether they are Christians or "Gentiles". Bible stating - "God is impartial!!" - what does it mean for those who are not JW ??? Does JHVH are insensitive for suffering of those people, but only give, pay attention for JW prayers and their letters to Russia? If your Father is impartial, so you as JW member need to pray and for suffers that have Baptists, Catholics, Adventists, Hinduists ....because with such heart and mind and attitude you will imitate Father and Son, as in story of Samaritan. So please start to write letters also for people of other confessions as proof of impartiality :)))) When I was in jail for "neutrality" as JW, there was also two Adventist boys and two Nazarene boys, for the same issue . Two Adventist boy has been beaten by jail guards because they refused, for the reason of faith of course, to clean the floors at Saturday, because Saturday is day not for working but for spiritual matters, things. Can they be "wise in front of unbelievers" or those suffer was God's will for them? Or God just allowed their suffer? Because, they were convinced, suffer is for Jesus name?! How you as JW member would "judge" their faith and their persistent to not obey secular authorities? Do you think of them as fanatics, as misdirected zeal?? I am quite sure that JW would say how their faith and believes are not worthy and how Jesus not asking them that and how they wrongly interpret Bible, how their doctrine are err. Please look in the own mirror, and you will see how "their" face and "your" face look the same at the end of the day .....or in the morning.:))))))

hehe Brenda, do not worry about JTR. More important is to have own introspective and testing yourself. Because, as you can see, WT medal is double sided. Double face, one for public, other for those who search for the accurate truth about WT history.

As about me - i have no hate speech, just Critical Thoughts and Reasoning  Â