Srecko Sostar

Apologize for late reaction. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. I found this interesting. Many Christian religions, including JW teaching (about 144000) how people will go to heaven and how other Bible verses (e.g. John 14:2,3; Philip 3:14; ) "prove" that idea. But in same chapter John wrote Jesus quote about different idea. Father and Jesus will come to them (on Earth) and make their home with them (on Earth). ----------------------------------------------------------- While searching for Bible verses i found another intriguing claim on JWorg web: The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.” (Revelation 21:3, 4) This promise must apply to the earth, since death has never existed in heaven. - https://www.jw.org/hr/biblijska-ucenja/pitanja/tko-ide-na-nebo/ Here we have idea that presents how: since death has never existed in heaven. On what arguments author is able to made such claim? What Bible text speaking for or against this claim? With this way established thesis, author made another conclusion and claim: This promise must apply to the earth, ... Well, i found interesting how "death" is moving from one place to another. According to WTJWorg doctrine, Before Adam and Eve death never existed no where in Universe. In time of Adam and Eve, idea of death came to be possible reality (but only for earthly people on Earth) because of "fruit issue". Devil and his demons were making rebellion against God before "fruit tree issue" and before Adam and Eve rebellion, but there is no Bible text that speaking how God made any warning to angels as "free will individuals" (same as human on Earth) that they will be sentenced to death if they try to go against God's will, too. Because there is no Bible text about such warning, WTJWorg author of articles came to conclusion how death has never existed in heaven. But it seems how things will be different and death will be reality for angels and "heaven". Because somehow God and Jesus will "kill/destroy" devil and his demons. And even more, quote in WTJWorg publication call for Revelation book: The Bible teaches that under the rule of God’s Kingdom, “death will be no more.” Well, it seems, we shall have opposite situation in the future. "Death" will be removed from Earth to Heaven, on place where death has never existed. Sad days are expected for "Heaven". Another thing is also interesting: If God found appropriate to put test on first human with "fruit tree issue", is it possible that there is (or is not) a similar test for heavenly angels who came to existence by a same sort of creative act. Free will is free will, same for spirit and for flesh. Perfect or imperfect, you as free will individual can create problems. Bible reports said so. If God decided to put "fruit tree issue" test on human only and nothing like that for angels, than some question coming.

Please, if i omitted to put Bible verse/s to bake my opinion, would you be so kind to put: Bible verse/s that clearly said 1) how you have to shun dfd family member who don't living under same roof with faithful family members? and Bible verse that clearly said 2) how you can talk with dfd family member who living under same roof with faithful family members? If you would not be able to provide such scriptures than i will politely ask you to not make claim how i am person who denying scriptures (in fact scriptures that not exist in reality). Only existing thing is WTJWorg extended interpretations of Bible verses. PS Your and WTJWorg extended interpretations are so similar with examples of Jew who want to be very strict and righteous about Law which forbade working on Sabbath. And They made explanations with long list of what work is and what work is not. :)))

Of course !! Every "normal worldly human" have no specific reason to understand and to accept JW abnormal rule that makes separation and difference about family member who living in house, out house, in a basement or on first floor, near house or on other planet. Family member is family member, alive or dead, JW or non-JW or ex-JW.

The National Secular Society has urged Britain's charity regulators to ensure the restructuring of Jehovah's Witnesses (JW) charities does not obstruct victims of child abuse from claiming compensation. The NSS has raised the issue with the Charity Commission for England and Wales and the Scottish charity regulator, OSCR, after a report on BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme this week. The programme reported that the church is selling off substantial amounts of property and land that it owns. As part of a significant restructuring of the organisation, each congregation is being asked to dissolve its charitable status and merge – along with its assets – with the Kingdom Hall Trust. The trust is a registered charity whose aims include being a "custodian trustee holding title to freehold and leasehold properties acquired as places of worship". The assets mentioned on the Sunday programme included kingdom halls, which are used for worship and meetings. An abuse survivor and lawyers who spoke to the programme expressed concern that such a restructuring could leave JW charities unable to pay potential liabilities. A number of JW churches worldwide have been subject to investigations regarding their handling of sexual abuse allegations in recent years. In Australia, JW organisations have consolidated and sold properties worth millions of pounds amid a series of legal claims and a damning report from a royal commission. NSS comment NSS chief executive Stephen Evans said: "It is clearly not in the public interest for charities to be permitted to restructure in ways that may impede victims and survivors of abuse within these communities from claiming compensation. "We therefore urge the Charity Commission to use all available powers to ensure that the restructuring of JW charities does not impede abuse victims' and survivors' ability to obtain settlements." Jehovah's Witnesses and abuse in Britain JW communities' handling of abuse allegations will come under increased scrutiny next month, when the Independent Inquiry on Child Sexual Abuse is due to conduct hearings on the issue. In 2018 scores of alleged victims accused the JWs of a culture of cover-up of child sexual abuse. Earlier this year at least 20 former JWs launched legal action over abuse which they say they suffered. In 2017 the Charity Commission severely criticised the New Moston Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses in Manchester over its handling of allegations of abuse. And in 2016 the Supreme Court ruled that the Watch Tower and Bible Tract Society of Great Britain, which oversees JW congregations, couldn't prevent the commission from conducting an inquiry over its handling of abuse allegations. This week's episode of the Sunday programme is available on the BBC website; listen from 5:20 to 21:45 for the relevant section.

part of text: Collaboration between Church and state The importance of collaboration between the Church and state is a fourth aspect covered in the Vademecum. It brings up, for example, that “even in cases where there is no explicit legal obligation to do so, the ecclesiastical authorities should make a report to the competent civil authorities if this is considered necessary to protect the person involved or other minors from the danger of further criminal acts.” In addition, it reiterates that “the investigation should be carried out with respect for the civil laws of each state”. - https://www.vaticannews.va/en/vatican-city/news/2020-07/vademecum-procedures-cases-sexual-abuse-minors-clergy.html

If we put this observation and conclusion on "next level", it is similar how elders showing "cowardice" and not reporting CSA to the ONLY AUTHORITY that is in charge to deal with CRIMES according to Romans 13 ... to the "secular authorities". Well obviously , WTJWorg have problem in detecting what is "sin" and what is "crime".

I think how GB silly excuses going in this way: "we are rowing", "we are not inspired", we can err", "sometimes brothers and sisters who reading publications are overzealous, "apostles had wrong expectations so sometimes JW's have had wrong expectations", etc.

I think i would "agree" with GB who said how internet (in fact :)) JWorg official site and JW library), is very dangerous place for true Christians aka JW members. WTJWorg IT experts can remove "spiritual food" from your "table" (a well-laden table of nourishing spiritual food served at the right time.) which is coming "from JHVH through Jesus through GB" and make it to disappear. That it looks as if something has never even been spiritual food available for hungry and thirsty individuals who are "poor in spirit" as Bible said. When "this generation" (people who have good memory and know what was before and what was after) pass, not one of JW member in the future will never know nothing about this and other "clarifications". Amazing thing, internet! A supreme means of deceiving, cheating the people.

I really don't get why you need to involve other people's, mine in this matter, emotions. I am speaking with you and other people here, not because i like you or not like you. We discuss, at the moment, about how WT lawyer represent your organization on what he use to "prove" your activity and practice. Your publications, edited, printed, published by WTJWorg and scattered with help of members and internet shows (i put some of them in previous comment) without any doubt that words "shun" and "shunning" are part of "clear language" in JW "spiritual paradise". Why you have need to contradict and deny it ?? It’s easier to admit and then we’ll start a new topic.

WT Lawyer David Gnam explicit claim and argument in court is how the words “shun and shunning” do not exist in the vocabulary and practice of the JW church. He mixing spiritual and personal needs/life, but that is not problem, because both is not separate. Must exist together . And i do not have to "justify" nothing about it because of same reasons. Siting near other persons and singing together with other persons (David Gnam statement) and much more than this two, belongs to that same category you named - "spiritual and personal". Why you need me to make "explanation" or "justification" on this?? I really don't understand. What i "don't understand" is, why lawyer David Gnam Exposé on Court about JW religious beliefs and practice is opposite of what JW doing !!

As I mentioned before, in comment to Arauna, my primary response is about WT Lawyer and his false presentation of reality about dfd and shunning ! If you have something about it we can continue with conversation. Have no interest, temporary, arguing about this JW religious ideology and doctrine. Thanks!

If "messy" process lead to "right" findings that would be sort of miracle. A chaotic sequence of events consequently produces harmony. :)) Sometimes it could be possible, but each and every time? The destruction of the notes must be supervised and there must be exact instructions as to what is being destroyed and after how long time. Some notes, especially those explaining why and how the members of the legal (judicial) committee came to extremely important findings and conclusions should have a very long lifespan in some cases forever (or as long as the parties involved are alive). Especially when it comes to cases that are legally punishable. Elders received, as i can conclude from general understanding, directive from Bethel, Legal Department or some other WT Deportment, you would know better, to destroy some sort of notes about this and that subject. But all those elders, they do not know what the regulations and procedures are when extracting and destroying archival and registry material. I am very sure they making big mistakes in this matter.

I haven't any information, knowledge or assumption are dishonesty of WT lawyers known to those who arrange their services before Court process. But, WTJWorg people, individuals who hired lawyers, they are certainly well acquainted with the main elements that their lawyer will use as a defense. Because of this premonition, the responsible people in the WT who deal with legal matters have a great responsibility. But because of the frequent practice of WT lawyers to deceive, present half-truths and obscure reality, I think that such JW individuals who hire lawyers (JW lawyers and non-JW lawyers) belong to the same described group from your comment..... And all that is possible with donated money, money that comes from various JW members, from old/young and not wealthy, from children. How sad. How very sad!

Thanks for your good intentions about me, but i ask, kindly request you again, to read my "questionable" comments, more carefully.

Dear Arauna, i didn't comment this aspect of WT policies about why dfd is part of JW faith. And i wouldn't. I simply and clearly put on daylight what and how WT Lawyer doing in Court in his/their attempt to defend Image of religious "mountain-like organization", before secular authorities and before other "sister's religious" organizations, representatives who attended court process. I think that your comment have to be a addressed to Mr. David Gnam !

Watch the video Loyally Uphold Jehovah’s Judgments—Shun Unrepentant Wrongdoers, and then answer the following questions: - https://www.jw.org/en/library/jw-meeting-workbook/september-2017-mwb/meeting-schedule-sept18-24/loyal-when-relative-disfellowshipped/ Is strict avoidance really necessary? Yes, for several reasons. - https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/gods-love/disfellowshipped-person/ Synonyms for avoidance Synonyms: cop-out, dodging, ducking, eluding, elusion, escape, eschewal, eschewing, evasion, out, shaking, shunning - https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/avoidance You may want to know the outcome of the court case involving a woman who was upset because former acquaintances would not converse with her after she chose to reject the faith, disassociating herself from the congregation. 17 Before the case went to trial, a federal district court summarily granted judgment against her. That judgment was based on the concept that courts do not get involved in church disciplinary matters. She then appealed. The unanimous judgment of the federal court of appeals* was based on broader grounds of First Amendment (of the U.S. Constitution) rights: “Because the practice of shunning is a part of the faith of the Jehovah’s Witness, we find that the ‘free exercise’ provision of the United States Constitution . . . precludes [her] from prevailing. The defendants have a constitutionally protected privilege to engage in the practice of shunning. Accordingly, we affirm” the earlier judgment of the district court. 18 The court opinion continued: “Shunning is a practice engaged in by Jehovah’s Witnesses pursuant to their interpretation of canonical text, ... - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1988287#h=51 Please, dear JW defenders, Do you really need to defend WT lawyer Mr David Gnam twisting, lying on Court?

WT Lawyer Mr. David Gnam: “Disfellowship” literally means “no further spiritual fellowship” with the individual. […] The nature of the relationship, then, of a disfellowshipped person is not completely shunned. The disfellowshipped person is able to come into the congregation meetings, they’re able to attend in the Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witnesses, they’re able to sit wherever they like, they can sing the spiritual songs with the congregation. Well, this is full of contradiction or, as you would say, this is so "twisted". If dfd person comes to KH, sit there and sing with JW who are not dfd, how this is not "spiritual fellowship"? They siting and singing together "spiritual songs". And now, one more "twisted reality is this". If such dfd individual and his JW brothers want to go to drink glass of beer after "siting and singing together in KH" would that be OK according to WT Lawyer, according to WT publications, according to you?? Because if they go in pub and siting and drinking beer together that is not against genuine WT Lawyer explanation - “Disfellowship” literally means “no further spiritual fellowship” with the individual. Because if they drink a beer or coffee together, what "spiritual component" existing in that?? Perhaps that would be "social component"? But as we all know very well "socializing with dfd or non-JW person" outside of JW "spiritual activity" (that is preaching and Bible study, meetings in KH), that would be FORBIDDEN, sinful BEHAVIOR in JW church, according to WT publications and according JW elders interpretations. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t use the word “shun” or “shunning”. Is this "twisting or lying" ??

Who did it? Me? Where please? I thing how i didn't mention GJ in this topic. And please, i never twisting other people words. If i comment their quotes that is not "twisting" :))

Don't worry, Tom. I know my very short and very simple comment hurts, but the pain will pass.

FLEXIBILITY vs OBEY :)))

Yes, i also see this as problem. No religious organization, in this case a Christian, can provide complete and accurate knowledge and explanations of biblical events or of Jesus. When a believer realizes that his or her affiliation with a particular church does not provide “salvation,” it should help him or her build a “spiritual” rather than a “literal” faith. In fact, WTJWorg also argues that baptism alone (baptism as a JW member) does not ensure the survival of Armageddon or the resurrection. Therefore, WTJWorg is a source of contradiction, not only in this topic; salvation is possible only in a JW organization, but also in many other doctrines. Once more. All changes in the teachings and interpretations of the biblical text, as well as interpretations of dogmas in the teachings of the JW organization, then "clarifications" and "new light", can in no way be a guarantee to JW believers that their "salvation" is possible only in this "organization". Reassure yourself that "my organization" has the highest number of correct teachings than any other organization, it can not be guarantee for "salvation". Did Jesus say anywhere that one's affiliation with a particular church would be crucial in separating "sheep from goats" in Judgement Day?.

Me too. Can somebody explain why?

It seems, sounds good ... from your perspective. And it is reflection of your "faith" and "trust" in God and GB. I can't and don't want join you in such evaluation of GB work. I want to believe in human sincerity and from that point i am ready to believe how many JW people also not purposely oppose God's will. Nevertheless, their or mine "beliefs" does not nullify reality how people, generally, oppose God's will, purposely or unintentionally. Result of both "motives" is/are ........ bad consequences. With that consequences are; years or decades of wrong, err doctrines, teachings, directives, deeds, words and emotions. And all that is, religiously said, false worship. Well, purposely or not, false worship IS false worship. And WT printed tons of magazines, books and public talks about it, not showing any "mercy" to those other who not worshiping God in "proper" aka JW way of worship. WT publication criticized and judged not only other religion's doctrines but also behavior of their's members. When WT Management in past or today, aka GB+Helpers, speaking how this or that doctrine and interpretation and instruction is "God's thought" or "Jesus's thought" or "biblically grounded" and after they denied it and replaced with "new divine thoughts", what is that? Opposing God? Opposing sound mind? Fooling God? Opposing XY, etc? Dr Furuli will need to live with their own past and with their own future. And find something to stay "alive". Thanks for respond and thoughts.

This is partially correct, but not for all who left JW church. In videos from ex-JW i heard some of them complaining how they were not been able to celebrate Christmas or birthdays. I don’t go into the theological justification of their demands, but I don’t think it’s something that should be crucial to leaving or staying in the organization. There are so many other “details, bigger and smaller that should decide someone’s departure. Many things have been discussed at this Forum and, you will agree with me, they go far beyond, outweigh the issue of celebrating birthdays. It is possible that in some people there may be some individual trigger to change the state of feelings about the organization. But that moment when that happens is just a continuation of a process that has been in that individual’s subconscious and consciousness for a long/longer time. It doesn’t happen “overnight”, that decision is not impulsive. I observed the children of one mother in the former congregation. Teenagers. As they grew older and reached adulthood, their attitude toward belonging to the JW changed. The eldest sister left JW immediately after coming of age. The younger sisters soon after one by one also left the organization. I guess, I'm actually sure, that they didn't have problems with purely theological dilemmas or what the leadership of the organization was like, but with personal freedoms and pressures from mothers and elders (they were forbidden to associate with their father who was excluded many years ago and I think it was trigger for their decisions). This example, about issue of (MUST) shunning own dfd father was too much for them. And their reaction was completely natural and normal. WT JWorg and lawyer in video presented showed double face, showed hypocrisy. And want to look good in front of "secular", "worldly" people. They want to hold Image of Organization. And that "detail" is also "trigger" for some JW people to "come out of her" aka organization.