Srecko Sostar

- google translation, part of Croatian Law on the Legal Status of Religious Communities I do not know the status of the JW church in Croatia on this issue. Article 17 (1) A religious community acquires funds: - income from its property, - from the profits of companies which hold shares or stakes, - performing charitable, educational, cultural, artistic or other general useful activities, and selling religious publications or souvenirs, - from the provision of religious services, - from inheritance and gifts, - from voluntary contributions (in money, services or works) of natural and legal persons. (2) Religious communities shall be granted funds from the state budget, the annual amount of which shall be determined depending on the type and significance of its religious buildings (cultural, historical, artistic, etc.), and on the activities of the religious community in educational, social and health care. and the cultural field and its contribution to national culture, as well as the humanitarian and community service of the religious community. (3) Dedicated support may be granted to a religious community from the state budget and the budget of local self-government units and the budget of regional self-government units, especially for the construction and renovation of religious community facilities.

I would like to understand something. Does JW members pay "church tax" in Sweden, Norway or in any other country? How many JWs declare themselves to be a member of a JW church during a census in a country, so that "church taxes" could be levied on that basis? How many countries in the world collect "church taxes"? Is tax money from a believer who is a Catholic given only to the Catholic Church or part of the money is given to other churches? Would JW members agree to have part of their “church tax” be used to support some other “Christian or non-Christian” church? Is it the logic of paying a “church tax”, that members of a particular church support only their own church through the money thus collected, or the state funds all religions? If JW members will pay "church tax" for their own church, will GB be reduced or stop asking for voluntary contributions from their brothers an sisters? About 2 Corinthians 11:8-9. "I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you". I think that you misunderstand wording "robbed other churches". Other churches, Paul was talking, are not "worldly churches" of opposite denominations to his church. He speak about "first church" in various places. So, he "robbed" own, fellow, poor or rich, brothers and sisters.

I suppose that "unrighteous wealth" should be achieved by working with one's own hands, "by the sweat of your brow", and not by suing in the courts. :))

Jehovas vittnen kräver 25 miljoner av staten Synonymer till kräva - https://www.synonymer.se/sv-syn/kräva subst. (zool.) säcklik del av matstrupe (hos fåglar), matstrupssäck verb 1. fordra, begära, yrka på, påyrka, äska, framföra krav på; tarva, behöva, erfordra, framtvinga, göra nödvändig 2. infordra, utkräva, avkräva, avfordra 3. kosta, skörda Synonyms for require ........................... google translator subst. (zool.) sac-like part of esophagus ( in birds ), esophageal sac verb demand , request , urge , insist upon , the requests , make demands on ; tarva , need , require , force , make necessary call up , demand , exact , avfordra cost , harvest

Money is strong magnet and people rarely can resist at his call.

Neither religion is no longer what it used to be. :))

google translation from article in Sweden, - https://www.expressen.se/dinapengar/jehovas-vittnen-kraver-25-miljoner-av-staten/ 25 000 000 SEK = cca 2.400.000,00 EUR (2.800.000,00 US Dollar) Jehovah's Witnesses demand 25 million from the state Published 9 Jul 2020 at 17.00 Jehovah's Witnesses have been denied state funding for several years. Last year, the government overturned the decision - and now the organization is demanding SEK 25 million in compensation. After being denied state subsidies twelve years in a row, the government last year approved the organization as eligible to receive grants for denominations. The reason was a ruling by the Supreme Administrative Court which ruled that the practices of Jehovah's Witnesses - such as denying blood transfusions - do not in themselves constitute sufficient grounds for denying state subsidies. Requires SEK 25 million Jehovah's Witnesses believe that their rights under the European Convention have been violated. Jehovah's Witnesses are now applying for damages of nearly 25 million in compensation for the years without support, as evidenced by documents produced by News Agency Siren. The claim, which has been sent to the Chancellor of Justice, applies to both financial and non-pecuniary damage. Jehovah's Witnesses also include legal costs to claim their case.

Good points. WTJWorg made excuses that they have no "institutional settings" for redress scheme in Australia. Also they have no "institutional settings" to announce public apologize for wrongs they done in handling CSA or any other cases. Shameful explanation. If JW organization is not able to make "institutional settings" that missing now, it is fascinating to hear that this modern, advanced organization with so many Departments and Helpers is not ready and in capacity, competence to produce settings for victims, own members and former members. Such massive and global administration, supposedly backed by God and founded on spiritual values are not ready to face this need. Funny.

Please, if you like to share with us here, what are your answers on your own questions? Please, what standards JW elders or you will put on issue of helping widows? How would you/them determine "real widows", would you put some income census, number of minor or adult children, area of living, governmental programs etc. Would you at all involved "secular legislation" into this congregational matter? Because you try so hard to separate "secular and spiritual organizations", church and state. ???? really? :))) ???? really? Spirituality means different things to different people. For some, it's primarily about a belief in God and active participation in organized religion. For others, it's about non-religious experiences that help them get in touch with their spiritual selves through quiet reflection, time in nature, private prayer, yoga, or meditation. Many people identify as spiritual but not religious: With a few exceptions, the percentage of adults who identify as religious in many industrialized countries is declining, while remaining generally high in less developed nations. Even as religious affiliation decreases, though, a sense of spiritual identification could remain steady or even increase. -https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/basics/spirituality When secular laws speaking about moral standards and ethic than it is about spiritual life of particular society. With this context, secular authority is able to make conclusions and decisions about someone's spirituality.

Lawsuits Among Believers 6 If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers! 7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. 9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. What "spiritual leaders" need to be, to have to be classified as competent to judge trivial cases? What are "trivial cases" is about? Murder? Child molestation? No matter are cases "trivial" or not, "spiritual leaders", as Paul gave idea, have to be "competent to judge". To be competent, one need to be educated and experienced in using this education and knowledge of specific subjects that including people and things. Even over, Paul gave strong suggestion how to deal with "internal lawsuits" without so called "legislative" of any sort, "biblical" or "secular". Give up of your rights and give up of compensation for damage from your "brother". Whether WTJWorg and their spiritual leaders give up of "their rights" from "secular authorities"? Whether any JW member should give up and cancel any damage made by "worldly people"? Paul gave "principle idea". To give up and to be "wronged" and "cheated". If JW member are ready to behave in such manner inside own society of fellow witnesses, how more JW member should show same "faith" in front of "unbelievers"? Matt 5 said: 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him. Jesus and God were/are "heavenly authority" who put Romans on position of power. And they put them on that position according to "heavenly legislative", if we can said this way. We can assume how God expecting from people to learn and understand "divine law". Why any would think how God, who put them on position of "secular authority" to correct and punish all people, not just "worldly" people but also "christian people" aka JW members, would not be interested that people learn about "secular law" too? Because "secular law" is from God, according to Romans 13. If "secular authority" have legalism and legality established by God himself, than their "laws" have it too. :)) With Jesus you put focus, it is obvious how he, as "spiritual leader", knew what "secular law" said about taxes or any other legal issue. It is clear from what he said that people need to know what "belong" to Caesar for purpose of knowledge and for purpose to be able to give obligated things to "secular authority". And for the sake of "balance", God gave people possibility to act according to "personal conscience". And to obey or disobey all sort of regulations, inside "biblical legislation" or inside "secular legislation". This is sort of first "human right" from time of Adam and Eve. Of course, we need to be in reality and said this too. All this 3 sort of instruments; divine, secular and inside law are susceptible to spoilage. And because of that, speaking from position of "faith", God in his grace was, is and will help all sort of people according to his judgement. So many things are "relative" and our/mine theological discussion too. :))

Yeah, small country with diversity of climates, terrain configurations, mountains, lowland, sea, and more :). We are, most often, short with time, life time, money, willingness to do changes, preoccupied with worries and with a uniformed everyday life.

For sake of discussion. Old Jew Law written by Moses consisted of many legal acts, paragraphs. People who were supposed to deal with the problems of the nation and individuals needed to have a very good knowledge of the law and how the law should be applied in a particular case. So, it is normal to accept the reality of the fact that such "spiritual leaders" were in a way "lawyers", because a deep knowledge and understanding of the law, and its application, meant one thing: the implementation, the administration of justice. What kind of "spiritual leaders" would be those who do not know the law and all the applications of the paragraph in that law. So, “spiritual leaders” had to study, think, and discuss the law with themselves and with other “spiritual leaders”. Therefore, we can conclude that these people were forerunner, part of a system, called today by a special vocabulary - “lawyers”. "Biblical legislation," both that of the past and that which is related to Christianity, is based on "spirituality." This would mean that “spiritual leaders” do not have one role, for example to deal with questions of celebrated birthdays, holidays, whether 144,000 is a literal or symbolic number, whether a Christian is allowed to have a tattoo, whether Michael is Jesus Christ or not, and so on. “Spiritual leaders” prescribe and enforce decisions about the behavior of their members. The behavior of the members is sometimes inconsistent with the "biblical legislation", and sometimes it is also inconsistent with the "secular" legislation. “Spiritual leaders” should be well acquainted with both types of legislation. For “secular” legislation is related to God’s decision, and explained in Romans 13. For the same reason both classes of people, “spiritual leaders” and “church members” must submit to “secular” legislation. And “spiritual leaders” since they are “leaders” to their “members,” then they must guide them not only through “biblical legislation” but also “secular” legislation. That means being a “leader”.

This is amazing. Wonderful place and time you had.

This have interesting connotations. But according to the role assigned to them by the JW organization, they should be: shepherds who take care of all the needs of their flock, investigators, prosecutors, defenders and judges in cases of "wrongdoings" made by flock. It would be to much to expect from them to be lawyers too. :))

Dear Thinking, in this few days you participated with 10 posts/comments about same event. And now you concluded how you are in some sort of regret for opening "that link" and involved yourself in "this fiasco". Why do you think how speaking about such issue is your or our "fiasco"? Do you feel need for repentance because you involved yourself into this? Do you need to confess your "sin" about this to your elders in congregation? And to tell them how you are in virtual "inappropriate association with weak brothers and former members" ? The exchange of experiences and opinions that take place here can be helpful in acquiring the skill of discerning truth, falsehood, and that between this two.

Until we see a conviction, we cannot assume that there were any. I believe Ann O'Maly's viewpoint is of general value, and it does not target particular, this one, case.

Having in mind so many "doctrinal errors" produced in the WTJWorg "kitchen", this statement is not so shine to be proud about it and about parallel/similar spiritual voyage you and them have in Bible understanding.

:))) is this "sexism" ?

The text from the magazine is written in a way that shows some ideas. Who should do what and why? It seeks to show the separation of "church from state", "spiritual from secular". And in this way, vague and unclear, the possibility is left for the organization, through other instructions, both public and only for the eyes of elders, to make rules and solutions in accordance with the circumstances and current framework of an event and time and internal policy. And in some situations to invoke the “rights” enjoyed by members of the clergy, the “sworn enemy” of God and Truth and God’s earthly organization i.e. WTJWorg. From the parts of the text of the WT magazine you put, a difference is expressed in which it is clear that WTJWorg has what it claims it does not have. The existence of a class of clergy and laity. The text states that: "When elders learn about serious wrongdoing, they approach the individual .... On contrary: But what if you are not an elder and you come to know about some serious wrongdoing ...The Law stated that if a person was a witness to apostate acts, sedition, murder, or certain other serious crimes, it was his responsibility to report it and to testify to what he knew. Anna, I found answer on your dilemma. Text itself speaking about this context: Elders, not an elder, another Christian and then made comparison with guidance from Old Israel Law. Message is clear to whom JW member need to give report. It is also clear from other JW church teachings, and members in this way or another "know" answer, that they need to report matter to elders. Text said "Law" referring to Bible law. Next words are "serious wrongdoing" and especially "apostate act" and "sedition". From this is very clear that State have nothing with doctrinal things and opposition inside religious organization. But writer of text mixing this part of "serious wrongdoing" with other serious things: murder, or certain other serious crimes,. This other things JW member is obligate to report also. To whom? To elders. Well, this WT text show complete "separation" from secular state and show how elders have to deal not only with "sins" but also with "crimes" too. Text named that with wording "serious wrongdoings" and in numbering few of serious wrongdoings they put "murder" in it and "other serious crimes". This showing tendency that WTJWorg want to have complete power over JW people (and all other people in the future) to judge them not only for "spiritual transgressions", but for all sort of acts that are known from human history.

I am not sure..., who said that?

Yes, i understand. If elders make decision about, that sin is forgivable, than congregation follow direction.

Yes, thanks, i recall such examples from magazines, about people who done crime while was "worldly" people. But i was interested more about experiences about actual JW members who committed crime and how elders/congregation had deal with it.

Just for the sake of discussion. If there is no confession of the defendant and if there are no two witnesses for a crime (not a sin) before the Court and if the Court convicts a JW member with prison time sentence, the question is: Can and on what basis a convicted JW member remain a member of the organization? May and on what basis be a Judicial Committee formed to discuss a convicted brother? Will he be expelled during his imprisonment or will JC summon him for questioning after serving his sentence? And similar. Perhaps you know some real life situations?

Yeah, how blessed people must be with their leaders, capitalist or communist :)) The Trump administration proposed rule changes that would allow shower heads to boost water pressure, after Trump repeatedly complained that bathroom fixtures do not work to his liking. The Department of Energy plan followed comments from Trump last month at a White House event on rolling back regulations. He said he believed water does not come out fast enough from fixtures. “So what do you do? You just stand there longer or you take a shower longer? Because my hair – I don’t know about you, but it has to be perfect. Perfect,” he said. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/aug/12/us-shower-pressure-trump-hair-water

CC for sure made interesting points on subject. But, because many of you are part of JW congregation, you are under pressure. From one side WTJWorg doctrine is about how members have to be complete "neutral" toward "worldly things" and to not even express personal opinions about secular subjects. Because that is not of your "concern", that is what belong to "worldly people". JW members don't want to be involved, nor intellectually neither physically in matters of this world. According to "official viewpoint" of WTJWorg, members are not allowed to participate in any "social improvement" or in any activity that is seen as "worldly activity" from perspective of JW doctrine and policy. On other side GB leadership allowed participation of their own representatives in "worldly institution" aka OSCE and have some sort of political involvement and participation and contribution to this "old system of things" in "improving" political and civil freedoms. If we speaking about "human rights" or "civil rights" they are in fact "political rights", because secular governments create "politic /policy" which make it possible to have this and that "freedom" or "rights". If JW members found his free will to agree or disagree with some movement of "secular authorities" (as CC recommended) than they are also entitled to agree and disagree with GB politics too. Because this both "authorities", one is "secular" and other is "spiritual" are in subject to same "supreme authority" of god, according to Bible interpretations. By obeying god instead/over "GB" or "secular government" JW people with own "free judgement" would/will be in better position to prove "neutrality" in next/greater sense of the meaning of that word - to be "independent" from influence of other people.