DefenderOTT

Thanks Witness. Your fine understanding and patient to respond is appreciate.  

In fact, dear TrueTomharley,
my observations do not intend to exalt themselves above what is still the people of God.
Each of us will be disciplined and this also includes me.
Those who are sure to be standing will not let them fall.
Many things I have understood only by the people of Jehovah and his researches.
So you do not have to believe that I have written these things because I feel more enlightened or smarter.
However, "telling the truth" also means admit that we are wrong with some things and that it is about to get a discipline.
This is in harmony with the Scriptures.

Dear TrueTomHareley,
I think you did not understand the point or maybe I did not explain it well.
Humility is well accepted and, as you rightly said, it is appreciated that the GB has admitted some mistakes.
The problem I have highlighted is that some have become idolaters, if you can not question an understanding, even if you do it with the scriptures, it means that you consider certain people above the Word of God.
Instead, since they admit that they are not inspired (and this is to be praised), you should also be able to discuss some doctrines and prophecies.
Instead, among the brothers there is the mentality that "you can not do it" because only the others have the permission of God.
Only others can have the understanding of the Word of God and if you say that it is not true and assert that it is not scriptural, it is a risk of dissociation.
For example, the GB says that the discipline we are talking about has already happened in 1919 but if I say "it is not true" and I try to argue in the light of the scriptures, what is my risk?
If you talk about so many things, what's the risk?
This is one of the reasons why we will be disciplined (not the only reason) because we have not paid attention to the Word of God.
There have been personalities and there are still.
I know the GB encourages you to study and meditate but you can not say anything that goes against their intentions even if they have changed it dozens of times.
This is a fact.
A person who wants to argue on certain intentions does not necessarily want to create a sect or a division.
A person who recovers the intentions of 1914 is not necessarily an apostate.
If I, in conscience, understood through the Bible that certain prophecies were badly interpreted (and I would like to remember that understanding a prophecy can mean death) what should I do?
The Bible, to give you an example, predicted that the preaching work would be suppressed by the king of the north (Russia) but the GB never said anything.
So should I be silent?
The Bible has foreseen that the prohibition will extend throughout the inhabited land (and hence the hopes of Brother Sanderson are miserable) and so I, who is right or wrong, should I be silent?
We must pay attention to the Bible, not to the people.
This also applies to those who "can not be questioned"
My total loyalty goes to the Word of God, not to a group of people or even to a building.
No one wants to insult or degrade anyone, but each of us should be adult enough and mature to study God's Word personally and also admit the possibility that some things that have been taught are wrong.
and these "some things" can also be vital things

You too can not be objective.
the watch tower is the instrument and not the ultimate end of worship.
The tool is useful for achieving a goal (in this case, understanding the Bible).
If the instrument becomes worshiped then we can no longer understand it.
The Bible encourages digging and looking personally - Proverbs 2: 1-5
Biblical prophecy makes us understand that God will punish his people for being idolatrous.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we do it to understand it?
Studying the Bible.
The Bible is the only authority (try to re-establish it: the Bible is the only authority).
This instrument (the watchtower) has abided by the Bible many times, but sometimes it has used personalities and human ideas above the Bible (1975 is an example and there are others).
Who should I obey?
To the Bible.
Now you will say, "The Bible says we must listen to some men"
I say, "No, it is not so"
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
Prophecy says that a certain "guide" will become dead because some have put people above the Word of God.
This may be true or it may be false.
How can we establish it?
Studying the Bible.
You are convinced that you should not "discuss" the intentions of certain people, is not it?
I tell you that the Bible, and only the Bible, has the last word.
You might find that the Bible teaches some things you do not expect.
What can I tell you?
Wait and see what's happening - Joel 1: 1-8

I have nothing to add and this conversation is closed.
Everyone should make their own assessment.
Every now and then I will write articles that I consider important in the light of the Scriptures.
Anyone who wants can read and compare with the Bible.
Anyone who does not want to, wishes for everything

I think your definition of 'idolatrous' is off.
Right on. Study it.
 
Okay. Everyone else go home.

Srecko compared it to healthy water of a questionable substance.
Jesus is “living water”. John 7:38  If offered Watchtower’s glass of tainted water, and a glass of Jesus’ living water directly from the source, surely you would choose the latter.  Your comment establishes that Wt. is unable to bring anyone to this source.  Approaching Jesus directly is the more difficult route to take, because of the ramifications we suffer by doing so;  but in the long run it guarantees eternal life. Luke 9:24   Just from the little that I gather about you, you are a determined fighter and someone whom I have come to admire; but why would we back off fighting for eternal life and settle for allowing our “hat”/mind to be stomped into the mud by men who are unable, and really could care less, about offering eternal life?
“Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord:  looking carefully lest anyone fall short of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up cause trouble, and by this many become defiled”  Heb 12:14,15 
This is referring to wormwood, a “bitter root”, that scriptures mention that God “sends” to his wayward people when they have sinned against him.  Jer 9:13-16; Lam 3:15; 2 Thess 2:11,12
“The leaves and flowers are very bitter, with a characteristic odour, resembling that of thujone. The root has a warm and aromatic taste.  (A Modern Herbal) 
Hebrews 12:14,15 is associating fallen anointed ones to this root, whose demeanor and teachings appear palatable and inviting, perhaps even speaking as Christ. Matt 7:15-17; Mark 13:21,22; 1 John 4:1; Rev 13:11; 20:10
“Wormwood oil contains the chemical thujone, which excites the central nervous system.  However, it can also cause seizures and other adverse effects.” (webmd.com)
“Intoxications have resulted from the ingestion of an aqueous decoction of thujone containing plants, for their supposed abortifacient action. Death by overdose has been reported for wormwood”.  (The Essential Guide to Herbal Safety)
Anointed ones are compared to stars in the heavens. Matt 5:14,15; Phil 2:15  Those who wisely “shine” as “messengers” (angels) are in the “right hand” of Jesus. (Mal 2:7); Rev 1:20  Although they can be physically on the earth, they are secured in their “heavenly” position as stars in Jesus’ hand.  Eph 2:6; Rom 8:9; Heb 12:22,23
“Also, regard the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our dear brother Paul has written to you according to the wisdom given to him. 16 He speaks about these things in all his letters. There are some matters that are hard to understand. The untaught and unstable will twist them to their own destruction, as they also do with the rest of the Scriptures.
 Therefore, dear friends, since you know this in advance, be on your guard, so that you are not led away by the error of lawless people and fall from your own stable position.  But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. 2 Pet 3:5-18
It is very possible for anointed ones to lose their position in the Body of Christ; forfeiting the promise of salvation.  Ps 101:7; Heb 12:16  They are the root who mislead “many” by their teachings.
In two places in Revelation a star is seen falling from heaven. Rev 8:10,11 names the star, Wormwood, and through its fall onto rivers and springs of water, (those basic true teachings) a symbolic “one third” of the waters become wormwood.  The symbolic meaning of three in scripture shows significant effect on a complete whole.  Take a large 100 year old ladle, stir well, and “many people die from the waters because they had become bitter”. 
The source of “bitter” fruit, begins at the root. Matt 12:33-37; 3:10
Revelation is like a puzzle, with each piece full of color and descriptions of the same scenario. 
Wormwood is the fallen star, “Beast from the earth”, false prophet, Harlot/ Governing Body and generally all major leaders of the Watchtower. It falls like a “burning torch”, hardly something to be missed, especially to the “elect”.  Would it not “light up the whole house” and appear to be from Christ?   Prov 5:3-5; Rev 13:11; Rev 17:1; Matt 5:15; Matt 24:24; Eph 2:20-24
The Wild Beast from the Sea is the locust/scorpion “Gentile” army that Wormwood releases from the abyss, after it falls from heaven; after it has spearheaded Satan’s plan into action. It is the gradual, steady growth of the now massive army of the Body of Elders who are the beating heart of the organization. Rev 13:1,4
 The description both in Revelation and Joel of the locusts, fit the actions and intentions of the Elder Body, exactly. Rev 9:7-11; Joel 2:3-11 By replacing the anointed priesthood, the result of the locusts’ “sting” and Wormwood’s water, brings spiritual affliction upon the unsealed anointed ones. ("seizures and other adverse effects")  Luke 22:24-26; Matt 24:48-51; Rev 9:4-6
The Beasts are Gog and Magog who have surround the camp of the holy people.  Rev 20:7-9 Both identities have convinced the multitude of JWs, that the bulk of Revelation is not about them and God’s anointed people, but about the rest of mankind.  They will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment; but God’s anointed people are subjected to this delusion of Satan’s, to test/sift each heart for their love of pure, healthy living water, or a barely potable, intoxicating cup from a questionable source.  Rev 18:2,3; Luke 22:31; Rev 12:1-4
“Then I saw three unclean spirits like frogs (it takes time to become a full-fledged lie)
coming from the dragon’s mouth, from the beast’s mouth (organization), and from the mouth of the false prophet.
 For they are demonic spirits performing signs, who travel (preaching work) to the kings (anointed ones) of the whole world (of God’s “inhabited dwelling”)  to assemble them for the battle on the great day of God, the Almighty.
 “Look, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who is alert and remains clothed (Heb 4:13; Matt 22:37) so that he may not go around naked and people see his shame.”  So they assembled the kings at the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon."  Rev 16:13-16
In Ezekiel, Gog is destroyed in the valley of “Hamon-Gog” – the “multitude of Gog”, “a valley of graves”.  Joel 3:14 calls it, “the valley of decision”, where “multitudes” are found.  Ezek 39:11 
John 7:38 -  “The one who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, will have streams of living water flow from deep within him.”
“Deep” meaning at the root, which is the heart.  Matt 13:18-23; Luke 6:45 
 You are wise, but there are those contacted in the “preaching work” who are not as intelligent, (like me) and wouldn’t know how to avoid the poison.  Who is responsible when the person suffers from its affect; the one dangling the carrot, the one snatching it up… or both?
Since Satan also knows the core truths, he uses them to set the foundation for the lie.  Rev 13:2

That is why I still choose Jehovah's Witnesses as the best bet humanity has .... because I personally know the difference. 
I do cry for those who do not .... but the problem is bigger than my ability to help.
I raised three children who are all strong in the Truth, and it is in my opinion due to two things:
1.) The Core Truths are so valuable that they are worth putting up with all the human crap that goes along with it, and
2.) I taught them what was real and what was not, and to not expect much from "clergy", no matter how disguised.
My wife and I are in the process of adopting orphan children ... and it is our intent to have them learn theology from Jehovah's Witnesses ... at the Kingdom Hall .... because even with 85% drivel and self aggrandizement, and wasted potential ...
...it's still the ONLY GAME IN TOWN.
Wisdom comes in knowing the difference.
.
 

The vast majority didn't even know about it until ex-witnesses started spreading the word, and making it look like people missed out on something. 99.9% of witnesses continued with business as usual. Many others found out after reading the 1976 Watchtower, that some brethren had speculated after they were TOLD NOT TO...
But, I don't recall anyone at that time that was disappointed in my area. That became an added challenge the Watchtower had to address.

These are not bad sentiments, James. Why can't you simply learn yourself - I suspect your kids have mastered it - to acquiesce to headship? Nobody is saying you have to kiss up to it. Just don't torpedo it every chance you get.
Anyone adopting orphan children is a hero, regardless of the shots I may take at him otherwise. But will you really portray the most important lesson you will teach them as 85% crap? I fear you will not hold on to them that way. 
Better to comb through the abundant evidence of first-century misdeeds and blunders and say "our guys are no worse than them, and somehow God made it work."

The idea that 1975 would witness the end of the world was first introduced in 1966.

IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU CAN TAKE THE WORDS "6,000 YEARS OF MANS EXISTENCE WILL END" AND MAKING IT END IN 1975 AND CONCLUDE THAT IT REALLY DIDN'T SAY THAT AT ALL.

"Do not work for food that spoils; instead, work for the food that lasts for eternal life. This is the food which the Son of Man will give you, because God, the Father, has put his mark of approval on him.”  John 6:27

“Nourishing Spiritual Food”? 
I cannot advocate the website listed at the end of this short video, as I haven’t gone there.  Also I do not see verification that the money from the sale of houses, properties and goods was given to the Watchtower at that time period.  But I will not dismiss the large possibility.  What is important about this video, is hearing how 1975 was truly proclaimed from the source; quite contrary to how the 2017 convention presented it: 
“…you see, back then, some were looking to a certain date as signifying the end of this old system of things. A few, even went so far as selling their homes and quitting their jobs. (km 5/1974)"
“But the prophet who speaks a word presumptuously in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.” 
 You may say in your heart, “How shall we know the word which Yahweh has not spoken?”  When a prophet speaks in Yahweh’s name, if the thing doesn’t follow, nor happen, that is the thing which Yahweh has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You shall not be afraid of him.              Deut 18:20-22
“This is what the LORD of Hosts says: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They are making you worthless. They speak visions from their own minds, not from the LORD's mouth.”  Jer 23:16
“Behold, I am against the prophets, says Yahweh, who use their tongues, and say, He says. 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, says Yahweh, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their vain boasting: yet I didn’t send them, nor commanded them; neither do they profit this people at all, says Yahweh.”  Jer 23:31-32
If we claim to read God's Word and live by it, then God's Word should help us distinguish truth from lies.  Matt 3:10
 

It appears that with the internet it's too late and the "cat is out of the bag" never to be captured again!

The honest assessment was to *understand* and not allow your mind to go wild with speculation, which the FDS warned against. If you were around that time, then you would understand. I'm not willing to take the word of someone that cant, speak with clarity and truth if they experienced that moment in time.
It appears the same speculation continues with some that might have been there, but speak of it in a biased way. The good thing is, the Watchtower literature is there for everyone to comprehend and view it correctly without butting a spin in speculation.

Yes, the primary, specific driver of the problem is the fact that Brother Splane has already pointed out the fact that "GROUP 2" are getting "up there" in years, and he pointed to specific people as examples, showing how many of the prime examples from "GROUP 2" have already died. But while this is the driver there are, yes, I think there are a few more general items that combine and catalyze to provide the fuel for the transmission of this vehicle.
One of those general items is a subtle attempt to "herd the cats" back into a more well-defined pen again. The idea of obeying what we might not understand has now been implicitly repeated at least three times recently in various contexts. In 1966, when the first problem started, we were as a group, even more united in thinking than we were in 1925 when some brothers sold their property and created financial issues for themselves. Not everyone, of course, but thousands were just as united in thought as in 1914 when people were pretty much counting down to the very month and day on their countdown cards to October 1, 1914. Many at that time sold property and even bought life insurance policies to provide for their "non-Russellite" relatives when they would be taken. The difference was that, around 1975, we weren't looking to specific day this time, but to a short time period of just months, not years, after 1975 when the 6th creative day would run out. (Of course, brothers were only willing to wait until about December 1975 before forgetting )

The 2018 Circuit Assembly talk on using social media is another example of "herding the cats."

I think it's quite obvious that those of the FDS who speculated on this, and originated the idea of 1975,  believed their speculation was an honest assessment.

It is quite weird really. Cognitive dissonance perhaps?
Just recently I listened to one of the old recordings. The "infamous" talk given by District overseer Charles Sinutko, where the phrase “stay alive till 75” apparently got coined. It was entitled “Serving with everlasting view in mind” I am sure you know which one I am talking about. Br. Sinutko begins his talk by asking “do we know what 1975 means to us? Well we don’t have to guess what the year 1975 means for us. The WT May /1 1967 is very explicit; the end of 6000 years of human existence…and…possibly …the time when God executes the wicked” Unfortunately that word possibly got completely destroyed by what he says at the end of his talk, at around mark 20:20, when referring to the Society he says; “they know what’s coming, and don’t wait till 75, the door is going to be shut before then!”.  I can only imagine what those in attendance were thinking. It must have been hard for them not to “be looking forward to a date!”.
He of course wasn't the only person with a leadership role  to have voiced things this way. There were many, many others, as you personally know. Also, there is no doubt in my mind that those of the FDS, at least Fred Franz, really believed the end would come in 1975, although never officially taught, but merely insinuated. Logically, there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Thanks. But I was referring to the irony of responding to a point about "honesty" by creating additional, false, contradictory accounts -- alter-egos or "personalities," as it were. However, that is almost a perfect lead-in to what many of us saw happening not long after the 1970's came and went without the expectations fulfilled. I haven't studied the psychology of these things, so I can't speak to egos and ids as others might be able to. But I can agree that ego in the more common meaning of the word would help explain why so many people didn't want to admit having been wrong -- and were more than happy to adjust to the belief that this whole thing didn't really happen the way it did, and even if it did, it was only because a few brothers and sisters "ran ahead" of Jehovah's organization.
Even people who lived through the time period, as I did my along with own large family, including an extended family of Witnesses, were very quick to dismiss the idea that anything was ever said in the way it was actually said. A Bible study could actually read directly from photocopies of 10 to 20 year old publications to my mother and father, and they would deny that these were actual photocopies. My grandmother, who collected almost every special talk from every traveling visitor and Society (branch) representative, had all the old talks from the period, and even a circuit assembly from 1970, I think, that was just full of amazingly unscriptural talks about what the 1970's were sure to bring. My father was usually the "Sound Servant" (speakers, mics, mixers, amps, wires) at any assembly we attended, whether circuit, district, international, special meeting, and we often attended at least 6 assemblies a year due to this fact.  He kept a master copy of most of the assemblies and visits to the Norco Assembly Hall (the first one) and I would sometimes hear a talk again when he made copies of some of these talks on request. I heard the talks from this period more times than I care to remember.
Still, I found this time period to be exciting and entertaining. And I still think that the expectations--even though they were not fulfilled at the time many of us expected--were sill faith-strengthening rather than devastating, as they were to some. I thought they made us imagine more clearly what our lives could be like in just a few years, and it made us imagine what they might be like if things didn't happen as many expected. I never had a problem with this "exercise" of our faith. It was like a kind of mental "fire drill." I think it helped many to clarify their relationship with Jehovah. I was baptized in 1967, when the 1966 book that started this post was required reading for baptism. and began to auxiliary pioneer with all the magazines and books related to this issue. I was scheduled to graduate in 1975 but quit high school to pioneer full-time in 1973, not even 16 years old. This was recommended and encouraged by elders, circuit overseers and district overseers. My father, an electrical engineer, put some strict conditions on me if I were to leave school, including the amount of money I had to earn and split with the family per month, how soon I had to be able to support myself and leave the house (when I was 18 years old). So my life was defined around 1975 in such a way that I was not as apt to forget what happened and why.
But many persons who lived through the same period are now quick to deny that any of what happened actually happened, including things that happened to them personally. This is a disconcerting observation.

Irony sharpens irony.

Sorry Mate!
Your way off with your declaration. I didn't get the *quote* from there or alter the quote in any way, shape or form. I will not engage in personal theories that continue to gain support by the lack of facts by modern speculation, Sorry!!!

Are you in anyway suggesting that BAR-ANERGES was not telling the truth? if so, were you there, I was, and I agree with his conclusion.

Dear AB
Couldn’t agree with you more. Those, that speculated in 1975 thought it was a fact which worked against their ego by hysteria. The organization didn’t fuel it, ego did. There's no reason to rehash assumptions with speculation. Otherwise, we start new with the same old thing. Putting the trust on those that believe speculation is an honest assessment.

Dear JW Insider,
reading your comments I understand that you are a reflective and intellectually honest person.
If the people of God had "learned something" from past mistakes, it would be normal to debate the doctrines and prophecies in the light of the Scriptures.
If the people of God had learned anything, it would be normal for public conversations now to be done and also questioning the one who is not yet "faithful and discreet slave" (as admit Watchtower of 2013).
If we had learned something we would understand that we should study the Bible personally and this includes the possibility of finding something that goes against the official intent.
Obviously, if we had learned something.
Instead, if you try to get something back, anything, you're an apostate.
You do not get into the merit.
It does not matter if the arguments support the Bible; you are an apostate and just because you are going to rediscover the intent of the "NOT faithful and discreet slave".
Do you believe, honestly, that past history is served to something?
The people of God, exactly like in the past, are destined to repeat the same mistakes because the words of GB are more important than the words of the Bible.
Pay attention to prophecies.
If you can not understand the Word of God, it means the Bible lie - Proverbs 2: 1-5
I urge you personally to be certain of these things - 2 Corinthians 13: 5

LOL! Thanks for the information. Google returned this same general content that you posted in about 11 places, but after checking several of them, the ones I checked were missing the fifth paragraph and the last paragraph found on your post, which is why I assumed that you might have added both these paragraphs yourself. My apologies for the assumption that you had provided both of the extra paragraphs as your own comment. It looks to me now as if you only added the final sentence/paragraph: "There seems to be a disconnect between what people actually thought about 1975 in the eyes of the world.... " The versions I found on YAHOO ANSWERS didn't have the missing paragraphs, but some had versions of the 10 extra paragraphs that I quoted from the longer version in the last post. These versions are each a bit different, but repeat many of the key paragraphs. Examples:
https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20111008133433AA7SDXA https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130824022819AAzCbIj https://br.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100108180505AAc6yvr My goal was to make sure that if I responded, I was going to be able to separate the part you wrote from the part you quoted. So thanks for helping me out on that point. Apparently, as you have now pointed out, you got your version from a place that perfectly matches http://defendingjehovahswitnesses.blogspot.com/2013/09/did-jehovahs-witnesses-organization.html
I had already glanced at that sight, but didn't inspect it because it was so quickly obvious that it was about 10 paragraphs too short to be the original answer. Anyway, the "Defending Jehovah's Witnesses" blog also agrees that it came originally from YAHOO ANSWERS and from BAR-ANERGES.
Not that these differences mattered much to the point being discussed, but I thought the author (BAR-ANERGES) wrote a very good thesis to discuss under this topic, because it is a fairly complete general answer that matches much of what I myself have said to people, in defense of 1975, and what my parents and many others typically say. So I thought it would be good to address all of it. (Along with anything you might have said in defense of it.)