Patiently waiting for Truth

@Anna @Anna Your comment of 13 hours ago was talking about CSA ( it wasn't about JTR ) and you said because of course there are rarely any witnesses. But the CCJW have always demanded two witnesses to CSA, which of course was not possible, and that is why they dismisses so many cases as lies. By dismissing so many cases it makes it look as if there was less CSA in the CCJW than there really was. You also subtly brought out the point of the buddy buddy situation amongst Elders, protecting each other. Quote " It's easy for us to judge elders for mishandling matters and say why didn't they do this or that. Sometimes it must be so difficult to comprehend the whole situation, especially if we know the person well and he is a "really nice guy". As for this next bit I don't really understand. Quote : I suppose this can be a lesson for all of us, especially the likes of John Butler What lesson does this teach anyone and why John Butler ? Thank you.

Having been in contact with the IICSA they requested information about a situation that I made them aware of. So I have forwarded the information with my contact details, which it seems they will forward to the Police. @Anna had made a comment on another topic about what would we do if we knew the person or persons in question. Here is my answer. I did what should be done. Children need to be protected as much as we are able. Nobody should be hiding paedophiles and nobody should be walking away from their responsibility to report anything suspicious that could result in harm to a child or adult. Here is the letter that I answered. (highlighting mine) Our reference: IICSA-xxxxxx Dear xxxxxxxxxxxxx Thank you for contacting the Inquiry via email on 13 August 2020 and bringing to our attention your concerns about the abuse of a young child. We would still strongly encourage you to contact your local police force directly, or the NSPCC helpline on 0808 800 5000 if you believe that there is an ongoing current risk to any child or vulnerable person www.nspcc.org.uk As you may be aware, the Inquiry has a legal duty to pass on any allegations of child abuse to Operation Hydrant, which is a national policing team set up to coordinate the police response to non-recent child sexual abuse. Because of our legal duty, we need to pass some of the information you provided to Operation Hydrant. We can send information to Operation Hydrant anonymously, however, we would like to ask for your consent to pass your name and contact details to the police along with the allegations. This would allow the police to make contact with you if they deemed it necessary to gain further information about the allegations. If you do consent to us including your name and contact details, please respond to this email by 21 August 2020 and advise what your preferred method of contact would be (e.g. phone, email etc). Please be aware that we cannot guarantee which police force (if any) will make contact with you or they will use your preferred contact method. The attached leaflet “Passing Information To The Police” explains consent and how the police may use your information in more detail. Support You mention in your email that you are looking for Jehovah's Witnesses UK Sexual Abuse Helpline, unfortunately we are not aware of any such helpline. Whilst there are no support organisations that are directly attached to the Inquiry, we are able to signpost people to trusted ones that provide specialist therapeutic support and information to victims and survivors of child sexual abuse. While the Inquiry cannot endorse individual organisations, it recognises that those organisations are recognised for the services they offer. If you feel that you might benefit from some support you may be interested in some organisations who provide specialist advice and therapeutic support specifically for victims and survivors of child sexual abuse at this link. Although some of these organisations may currently be offering reduced services due to the COVID-19 crisis, the vast majority of them are still offering therapeutic support and advice. It may also be beneficial to talk to your GP so that they can signpost you to some appropriate local support. Truth Project Please do remember that there is a part of the Inquiry which enables victims and survivors of child sexual abuse to share their experiences with us - you can find more information at the Truth Project website. Finally we would like to make sure that you are aware of an investigation that the Inquiry is carrying out into current child protection policies, practices and procedures in religious institutions that have a significant presence in England and Wales. This investigation includes the Jehovah’s Witnesses. You can find out more about this investigation on our website and you can find details of the public hearings relating to this investigation here. Thank you again for contacting us. If you have any questions regarding the work of the Truth Project, or the Inquiry in general, please do not hesitate to contact us. Yours sincerely Jodie Yarborough Head of Correspondence & Engagement Team Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

We are going off topic here but :- To quote @Anna because of course there are rarely any witnesses. I love it when someone says this. It blows the Two Witness Rule clean out of the water. Quote Anna. "Now imagine there is no proof. Just an accusation, and not against a person on a forum (whom we don't really know) but against someone we know personally, someone who is a "really nice guy".....now try and handle that." Well you've heard me say that i don't trust anyone. By that I mean any human. I would like to comment more on this but i think it should be a separate topic due to circumstances. JTR can still make his peace with Almighty God through Christ.

Is it true that North Korea are killing pet dogs and eating them as they are starving due to flooding of their crops ? And is it true that somewhere, I think it is India, they have said that their people will not be able to buy, sell or work if they don't have some kind of paperwork or card ? Things 'flash up' on my Facebook and i read them, but when i go back to find them they seem to be gone.

@Ann O'Maly I liked him too. I had tears in my eyes. It is a big shock and very sad.

@Ann O'Maly Is this for real. Oh my goodness. That is so sad. I have no more words here.

Sometimes I just do what is expected of me

The 18 Jehovah’s Witnesses arrested in Xinjiang have now been sentenced to long jail terms. Lawyers complain of the inhumane conditions of their detention. https://bitterwinter.org/18-jehovahs-witnesses-sentenced-to-years-in-jail-in-xinjiang/ Bitter Winter has learned that, on June 13, the People’s Court of Korla city in Xinjiang, has sentenced 18 Jehovah’s Witnesses to imprisonment, ranging from two years and six months to six years and six months, on the charge of “organizing and using a xie jiao organization to undermine law enforcement.” As Bitter Winter previously reported, this was the first time that Article 300 of the Chinese Criminal Code was applied for a crackdown against the Jehovah’s Witnesses. Their religion is not part of the official list of the xie jiao (“heterodox teachings,” or movements banned in China), yet law provisions against the xie jiao are now applied against them.

@Srecko Sostar It would seem as if the true Anointed are not in a 'spiritual paradise' because they are under the control of the GB and even under the Elders. The true Anointed are told not to meet together for Bible study or prayer. They are also told it would be working against the Holy Spirit. So it would seem that they are in a desert, without the true 'water of life'. John 4 v 13 & 14. In answer Jesus said to her: “Everyone drinking from this water will get thirsty again. 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a spring of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”

Um, maybe the census is to see how many people per state to 'cull' using the virus. The government may be assessing the cost of keeping so many people alive. Having read the 'political' info about China etc, it would not be so unbelievable for America to kill their own people.

@TrueTomHarleyQuote " It is possible to be too transparent, you know. " That would be something you have learnt from the CCJW leaders. But I totally disagree with it. Sorry JWI i know this is totally off topic.

@derek1956 But you chose to judge me anyway . And now you say i don't use God's name :- Because the name Jehovah is still in dispute. The letter 'J' wasn't even invented back then so at best it would be Yehovah. Then we have the point of the Tetragrammaton being YHWH according to the leaders of the Organisation. So it would mean substituting the letter Y and the letter W with the letters J and V. Now God's true name has deep meaning so changing it would be an insult to God, hence i now do not know exactly what is right. So i much prefer to call God, Heavenly Father and Almighty God, when i pray. If I felt good in my Christian conscience to use the name Jehovah, then I would use it. But as I'm not sure then i don't use it. Whereas it seems that you just follow the words of men.

@TrueTomHarley You are indeed a true GB serving JW. But so be it. I asked politely and you've refused. It proved my point.

@derek1956 The 'woman' is the True Anointed. And i wasn't aware that Christ had handed HIS authority over to you. In whose name do you judge me ?

@John Houston You are a true JW it seems. You use all those same old, same old, arguments. Noah, Moses et al. But you and I know that those men were inspired by God's Holy spirit. The GB call themselves the Faithful and Discreet Slave, whilst admitting that they are NOT inspired. You say "Leave because of their imperfections?" Answer, NO, leave because of the immorality in the CCJW and the false teachings. It amounts to the GB being the cause of most of the problems but i left because my Christian trained conscience would not let me continue to be part of such immorality and lies. Having said that it proves to me that the CCJW / Watchtower is NOT "run by Jesus for Jehovah". I do not think that Almighty God and Jesus Christ want 'Collateral Damage' in an organisation which they would approve of and support. The GB ARE the cause of much stumbling. The GB have made rules that hide Paedophiles in the CCJW. The GB have stumbled the True Anointed. The GB have brought shame on Almighty God and Jesus Christ. I am in opposition to the GB, the Child Sexual Abuse, the hiding of Paedophiles in the CCJW, the beating of their 'fellow slaves' (mentioned in Matthew) that is the True Anointed, and the stumbling of many that would otherwise search for God. I am not in opposition to Almighty God and Jesus Christ. In fact my faith is that they will either clean out the CCJW or form another way for humans to serve God properly.

@TrueTomHarley Quote "Two of them are, and two are not very many, easily accommodated in the body of limbs that all work together." Could you please explain the words that I have highlighted in red, thank you. I have a feeling you are referring to the Anointed and would like this clarified please.

Revelation 12 provides an overview of three major players in the world today and their impact on end-time events. Whom do the woman, Child and dragon represent, and what can we learn from this section of Bible prophecy? he book of Revelation is a vision from Jesus Christ, given to Him by God the Father, which reveals what is going to happen before His return to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This fascinating book is also called the Apocalypse, from the Greek word that means revelation. This prophetic book is primarily written in a chronological style with occasional breaks for overviews of specific subjects. Revelation 12 is one of these overviews, providing a history stretching from the time before humans existed until the time just before Christ’s return as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Revelation 12 begins with the statement: “Now a great sign appeared in heaven” (verse 1). The word “sign” comes from the Greek word semeion, meaning “a sign, mark, token … an unusual occurrence, transcending the common course of nature” (Thayer’s Greek Definitions). The first great sign is a vision of a woman who gave birth to a child (verse 1). Then in verse 3 we read, “And another sign [semeion] appeared in heaven.” We thus understand that these three symbols—a woman, a child and a dragon—represent things beyond the ordinary events of nature. As we are going to see, these three figures symbolize three major spiritual forces that have been at work for several thousand years. In order to understand this chapter, we now need to understand the symbols. What do the woman, the Child and the dragon represent? Who is the woman in Revelation 12? The woman of the Apocalypse—described as being “clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars” (verse 1)—represents Old Testament Israel. In the Old Testament, God referred to His people as a woman whom He had dressed in honor and splendor (Ezekiel 16). The garland with 12 stars may be symbolic of the 12 tribes of Israel (Genesis 37:9-10). Throughout Revelation 12 we note that the “woman” is repeatedly protected by God (verses 6, 14-16), especially as the time approaches for the “kingdom of our God” to be established on earth (verse 10). In the New Testament, God’s Church is symbolized as a woman; and its members are likened to virgins (Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 14:4; Revelation 19:7). The New Testament Church is called “the Israel of God” (Galatians 6:16) and likened to “Jerusalem above,” which is called “the mother of us all” (Galatians 4:26, also see Hebrews 12:22-23). Members of the Church are described as “a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His [God’s] own special people” (1 Peter 2:9). When Christ returns to earth, He is going to marry the Church, which is called “His wife” in Revelation 19:7. Read more about Jesus Christ and the Church in our article “Marriage Supper of the Lamb.” Based on these passages, it is clear that the woman in Revelation 12 represents God’s people. Incidentally, it is also interesting to note that the imagery of a dishonorable woman—one called “the great harlot”—is used in Revelation 17:1 to depict a false church that deceives many. Read more about this in our article “Mystery, Babylon the Great.” Who is the Child in Revelation 12? The woman (God’s chosen nation of Israel) is described as giving birth to a “male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron” (Revelation 12:5). Indeed, Jesus Christ was born into this nation. The verse continues, “And her Child was caught up to God and His throne.” The language here makes it clear that Jesus is the “Child” in Revelation 12. Jesus is the One who is prophesied to “strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron” (Revelation 19:15). He is also the One who, after His resurrection, was taken up in a cloud to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Who is the dragon? The third symbol of Revelation 12—“a great, fiery red dragon” (verse 3)—is described as having drawn “a third of the stars of heaven” and standing “before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born” (verse 4). A few verses later, this dragon is clearly identified as Satan: “So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (verse 9). As for the dragon drawing “a third of the stars of heaven,” this reference apparently represents Satan leading a third of the angels in a rebellion against God. Other passages show stars represent angels (Revelation 1:20). The Bible also explains that Satan had been involved in a rebellion against God in which he attempted to exalt his “throne above the stars of God” and “be like the Most High” (Isaiah 14:13-14). Satan then began his work as “that serpent of old [the one who tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden], called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world” (Revelation 12:9, emphasis added throughout). For a more extensive explanation of Satan’s rebellion, see “God vs. Satan.” If God has “ministers of righteousness,” Satan also has his servants—physical ministers (themselves deceived and helping deceive others) and spirit beings who pass themselves off as righteous but incite human beings to sin (2 Corinthians 11:15; Ephesians 6:12). Jude further describes the fallen angels or demons as “angels who did not keep their proper domain” and who are now “reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day” (Jude 1:6). Revelation 12:3-17 is a concise history of Satan’s efforts to thwart God’s plan to bring many humans to glory as part of His eternal family. Satan’s actions included convincing a third of the angels to follow him in his attempt to make himself like God, attempting to have Christ killed as a child (Matthew 2:13-18), working to deceive the entire world and persecuting God’s people. Let’s now consider in greater detail Satan’s attempts to derail God’s plan. he dragon vs. the Child In Revelation 12:4 we read that “the dragon stood before the woman who was ready to give birth, to devour her Child as soon as it was born.” This appears to be a historical reference to King Herod’s effort to destroy Jesus as a young child by ordering the deaths of all male children from two years old and under who lived in and around Bethlehem (Matthew 2:13-18). But an angel had warned Joseph to flee to Egypt with his wife and Jesus to keep the Child from being destroyed (verse 13). The Believer’s Bible Commentary notes this about Revelation 12:4-5: “The dragon is ready to devour the Child as soon as He is born—fulfilled in the attempt of Herod the Great, vassal of Rome, to destroy the newborn King of the Jews. The male Child is clearly Jesus, destined to rule all the nations with a rod of iron.” Even though Satan’s attempt to destroy Jesus when He was a child failed, the devil did not give up. Prior to the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, “Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil” (Matthew 4:1). During this temptation, Satan tried to get Jesus to violate God’s law and worship him instead of God. The devil offered Jesus “all the kingdoms of the world and their glory” (verse 😎 if Jesus would worship him. But Jesus did not do so. When Jesus’ ministry was fulfilled and it was time for Him to give His life as payment for humanity’s sins, Satan was there once again. On this occasion, Satan was the one who “put it into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray Him” (John 13:2). Although Satan was clearly involved in the crucifixion of Jesus, this was actually part of God’s plan for the redemption of mankind. As Genesis 3:15 had predicted, there would be ongoing “enmity” between the serpent (Satan) and the woman (God’s people) and the “Seed” (Jesus) who would come from the woman. Furthermore, this passage indicated that Satan would have limited success in being able to “bruise” Christ’s heel by influencing the man who would betray Jesus and that Jesus would “bruise” Satan’s head by resisting his temptations and qualifying to replace him as the ruler of this world. So why did Satan expend so much effort in his attempts to destroy Jesus? Because if there had not been a perfect Savior to pay the penalty for humanity’s sins, God’s plan would have been thwarted. Without a Savior, humans could not be forgiven of their sins nor could they live forever in God’s eternal family. The dragon vs. God’s people In addition to his efforts to destroy Jesus, Satan has a long history of persecuting God’s people, especially members of God’s Church, represented by the woman in the latter portions of Revelation 12. Although there was fierce persecution from the earliest days of the New Testament Church, God allowed the woman to flee “into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days” (verse 6). This verse indicates that the true Church was protected by God for 1,260 years (see Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6, showing that a day can represent a year). During this time—which may have continued through the Middle Ages—the Church was protected from its enemies, including the Roman Empire and false Christianity. The next two verses then explain that “war broke out in heaven” between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. As a result of this war, John, in vision, saw that a place for Satan and his angels was not “found for them in heaven any longer” and they were “cast to the earth” (Revelation 12:7-9). This battle is different from Satan’s original rebellion, which is described in verse 4 and which occurred long before the birth of Christ. The setting for this battle, described in verses 7-9, and its significance is then announced by a loud voice in heaven (verses 10-12). This battle is an indicator that “the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have [or will soon] come” (verse 10). Prior to this event, Satan has had access to God’s presence to accuse His people (Job 1:6-7; Job 2:1-2). Now he and his angels no longer have this access and are cast down to the earth. Realizing the significance of this event, Satan the dragon now has “great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time” (Revelation 12:12) before Christ returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth. He then directs his rage toward God’s people, the ones who are the continuation of the woman of the Apocalypse who gave birth to the male Child (verse 13). God, however, will not allow Satan to destroy His people. Jesus had promised that the “gates of Hades [the grave]” would not prevail against it (Matthew 16:18). To protect His people, the woman is “given two wings of a great eagle,” meaning she is safely taken into “her place,” where she will be protected for “a time, and times and half a time [apparently 3½ years], from the presence of the serpent” (Revelation 12:14). Even though Satan will spew “water out of his mouth like a flood,” to try to get at the woman, he will not be successful (verses 15-16). In this passage, the concept of a “flood” likely represents armies (see Isaiah 59:19; Jeremiah 46:7-8). Satan then goes to “make war with the rest of her [the woman’s] offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ” (Revelation 12:17). From this passage we note that while some members of God’s true Church will be protected from Satan’s wrath during these end times prior to Christ’s return, others will not. Those not in the place of protection will need to prove their allegiance to God the Father and Christ in the face of Satan’s intense persecution. The dragon vs. you Whether you realize it or not, Satan also hates you and will do everything possible to keep you from loving and obeying your Creator. His anger is not just against Jesus and the Church. Why is he angry at you? Apparently, because he realizes that humans were created by God with the potential to be higher than he was (Hebrews 2:6-8). Because of his sick, twisted and unsound thinking, Satan has taken on the role of being an adversary against those seeking to love and obey their Father in heaven. Writing to the people of God, Peter cautioned, “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour” (1 Peter 5:8). In communicating with the brethren in Corinth, Paul described the true gospel as being “veiled” or hidden because of Satan, “the god of this age,” who had blinded the minds of unbelievers (2 Corinthians 4:3-4). The good news is that this “veil is taken away in Christ” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

Why does the woman of Revelation 12 flee twice? In the prophecy of Revelation 12, the woman in heaven, clothed with the sun, represents the saints, and includes the saints of the Old Testament period as well as the church which began in the first century as related in the New Testament. The woman flees to the wilderness, twice in this chapter. Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. This presents several questions, foremost of which are, what does the wilderness represent? Are the two time periods identical? Does the church flee to the wilderness? Why does she flee to the wilderness twice? These are addressed below. Is the wilderness literal? The prophecy obviously invokes symbolic language, but some insist that some particular elements of it should be taken literally. Rev. Herman Hoeksema discussed an example of this. The wilderness was the item said to be literal, in a preterist interpretation. The paragraphs quoted below are from his book Behold He Cometh. Hoeksema wrote: There is no one who takes this woman for a real woman. Nor are there any interpreters who understand the dragon as a real animal, or the stream which he casts out of his mouth as a real stream, or the wings which the woman receives as real wings. In so far there is no difficulty. But in spite of this, it is necessary that we remind you of the fact that here we have no literal presentation of facts, but rather an allegory, which does not allow of literal interpretation. For although all agree that this is not a real woman with real eagle's wings, and that the dragon mentioned here is not a real dragon, and that the stream of water he casts out after the woman is not a real stream of water, yet there are interpreters who make the mistake of singling out that wilderness and of maintaining that it, at all events, must be taken in a literal sense of the word. The woman, so they say, is at this time evidently in Jerusalem, the Old Testament holy city. And as she is attacked by the enemy, she flees into a literal wilderness somewhere in the vicinity, where she is hidden twelve hundred sixty days, even as at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem the disciples fled to Pella. Now this is violating one of the most fundamental rules of interpretation, and especially of the interpretation of the Apocalypse. And we must guard against it. There is no right to single out one element in an allegorical representation of things and to take it in the literal sense. The woman in Revelation 12 pictures the church. She is clothed with the sun, which represents the gospel, which is the true spiritual light of all mankind. John said about Jesus, "That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world." [John 1:9] John showed that every human is to be enlightened by the gospel. Those who have faith and believe in Christ are pictured by the woman in heaven. Because the woman flees to the wilderness, the church (which is represented by the woman) can not be identified with a great denomination, that is visible to the world, with its head in Rome, or some other city on the earth. The image of a woman fleeing to the wilderness suggests that the church at times has been hidden from the world, and its light has become very dim. As Puritan scholar William Fulke said, no great denomination has fled to the wilderness literally. Are the time periods the same? In this prophecy, the woman flees to the wilderness for 1,260 days, and also for "a time, times, and a half." What do these time periods mean? Since the woman in the prophecy is symbolic, and likewise the sun, the dragon, and the wilderness, the time period for which she remains in the wilderness is symbolic too. The 1,260 days and the "time, times and a half" are figurative. They represent the entire church age, when the gospel goes to the world. The explanation is provided in the article Daniel's time, times and a half. To say this period means a literal 1,260 days, or three and a half years, is to single out one element in an obviously allegorical representation. This mistake is commonly made by dispensationalists. Two perspectives The two accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness correspond in the following ways: Both are part of the same vision They involve same woman They have the same duration, 1,260 days, or "a time, times and a half" The woman is nourished both times It is the same wilderness Her place is prepared by God These accounts of the woman's sojourn in the wilderness differ in at least two ways: The first account occurs before the great war in heaven; the second one occurs after the war, and the victory of the saints. The first time she flees, the woman's perspective is from ground level, while the second time, it is from above, as she is equipped with two wings of an eagle, which allow her to soar high above the earth. This represents a divine point of view, in contrast to a human viewpoint. Exodus 19:4 says that God bore the Israelites upon eagle's wings. Isaiah speaks of eagles' wings in connection with a renewal of strength: Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. So, the prophecy of Revelation 12 indicates that some may need to take another look at the scriptures, with a different point of view. The human point of view is the earthly one, from ground level. It is the point of view that is associated with the little horn, in the prophecy of Daniel 7. There is a link between this chapter and the prophecy about the woman flying to the wilderness for "a time, times and a half." This expression is first mentioned in Daniel 7:25. Daniel said, "behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." [Daniel 7:8] These "eyes like the eyes of man" represent a human viewpoint. The spiritual viewpoint is one that is enlightend by God, and by an understanding of the gospel. This is not a literalistic approach. An eagle soars at a great height and views the earth from above, and so, in Revelation 12, the two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent a divine viewpoint. The king of Babylon, who received visions of the future from God, was represented by a lion with eagles' wings, in Daniel 7:3-4. These wings were plucked off. The third beast in Daviel's vision was a leopard, with four wings of a fowl, obviously meant to depict an inferior sort of wing. The Hellenistic kingdoms were characterized by pagan superstition. The worship of the Greek gods, Zeus, Hera, Poseidon, Demeter, Ares, Hermes, Hephaestus, Aphrodite, Athena, Apollo, Artemis, Hestia, and a host of others, and the pagan philosophy that went along with those beliefs, was depicted by wings of a fowl, as being a much inferior condition, compared to the understanding given to king Nebuchadnezzar. Such inferior "wings" represent false prophets and false teachings. Thus, eagles' wings represent the gift of understanding prophecy. What is the wilderness? One of the key questions about the prophecy of Revelation 12 concerns the significance of the wilderness. Paul showed that there is a connection between the experience of the church and the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness after they came out of Egypt, and all the hard lessons they learned, which were for our examples. [1 Corinthians 10:6, 11] The 42 months in Revelation 11:2 and 13:5 has been associated with the 42 different camps of Israel on their way to the promised land, listed in Numbers 33. They "pitched in Succoth;" ... "pitched in Etham;" ... "pitched before Migdol;" ... "pitched in Marah;" ... "came unto Elim ... and they pitched there;" ... "encamped by the Red sea;" ... "encamped in the wilderness of Sin;" ... "encamped in Dophkah;" ... "encamped in Alush;" ... "encamped at Rephidim;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Sinai;" ... "pitched at Kibrothhattaavah;" ... "encamped at Hazeroth;" ... "pitched in Rithmah;" ... "pitched at Rimmonparez;" ... "pitched in Libnah;" ... "pitched at Rissah;" ... "pitched in Kehelathah;" ... "pitched in mount Shapher;" ... "encamped in Haradah;" ... "pitched in Makheloth;" ... "encamped at Tahath;" ... "pitched at Tarah;" ... "pitched in Mithcah;" ... "pitched in Hashmonah;" ... "encamped at Moseroth;" ... "pitched in Benejaakan;" ... "encamped at Horhagidgad;" ... "pitched in Jotbathah;" ... "encamped at Ebronah;" ... "encamped at Eziongaber;" ... "pitched in the wilderness of Zin, which is Kadesh;" ... "pitched in mount Hor;" ... "pitched in Zalmonah;" ... "pitched in Punon;" ... "pitched in Oboth;" ... "pitched in Ijeabarim, in the border of Moab;" ... "pitched in Dibongad;" ... "encamped in Almondiblathaim;" ... "pitched in the mountains of Abarim, before Nebo;" ... "pitched in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho;" ... "pitched by Jordan, from Bethjesimoth even unto Abelshittim in the plains of Moab." These 42 different camp sites help to show what the wilderness represents in Revelation 12:6 and 14. Like the Israelites who moved from place to place, the church also has not attained her permanent spiritual "land," but is still being taught, and led, often in a roundabout way, to her final destination, the promised "rest," and the eternal inheritance of the saints. Illustrations of this occur when individual Christians abandon formerly held interpretations, and systems of interpretation, for a different view, or leave the denomination they were brought up in, and become aligned with another. The wilderness for us is the unsettled state, of seeking our promised land, not having attained it already. The two different flights of the woman to the wilderness may be explained as representing two different viewpoints, or methods of interpretation; one being the earth-bound view, which the woman is limited to, when she lacks the two wings of an eagle, that are given to her in her second flight to the wilderness. The wings of eagles represent an understanding of prophecy, as when an eagle soars high in the air, it views the earth from above, picturing the divine viewpoint, which contrasts with the human viewpoint, represented by the little horn, which dominates the saints in the vision of Daniel 7. In the wilderness the woman has a place prepared of God, and they feed her there for 1,260 days, but who "they" are is not stated. Then, we read of a great war in heaven. It is a spiritual war, as it is fought between the various angels of the dragon, and Michael and his angels. But that does not mean that the saints or the church have no part in it. Michael is victorious, and the dragon and his angels are cast out. When Satan is cast out, verse 11 says "they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony." Thus in this war, the church is involved in a great struggle for the truth. But it is not a war between flesh and blood. Paul said: Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. The woman is persecuted by the dragon, who sees he has been cast out. About the time the magnificent temple in Jerusalem was nearing completion, John the Baptist went out to the wilderness to preach. The people had to leave the towns and cities, and go to the desert to hear him. John did not join one of the Jewish sects; the wilderness was neutral territory. The woman has a place prepared for her in the wilderness, which pictures saints seeking God, by following the teaching of the scriptures. In the quest for the truth, many have left established institutions. The spiritual journey of saints to their promised "rest" is represented by the woman fleeing to the wilderness. Jesus said, Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. The disciples who followed Jesus left all; they left their traditions, families, and friends. [Mark 10:28, Luke 5:28; 18:28] Most people accept the teaching of the religion or denomination in which they were raised. But Jesus showed that for those who follow him, even family unity could be threatened. [Matthew 10:35-3; 19:29] In the wilderness, the woman is nourished with the message of the gospel. The children of Israel were fed with manna in the wilderness, but Jesus said that he is the true manna. [John 5:32-58] The wilderness represents the way through which Christ leads his saints to their eternal inheritance. John 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. The saints are those who follow him wherever he goes. Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. The saints seek a heavenly inheritance. Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come. Paul said, "come out from among them," referring to the world. 2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. From the wilderness, the whore can be seen. Revelation 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Again there is a warning to the saints, to come out of Babylon: Revelation 18:4 Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. The wilderness pictures the period of preparation of the saints before they enter their promised rest. Jesus promises rest. Matthew 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. The church's struggle for the truth One of the most obvious features to be seen in chapters 11, 12, & 13 of Revelation is the prominence given to the time periods, and their associated numbers, 1,260 days, and 42 months, and the "time, times, and a half;" all pointing to the same period of one half of a prophetic week, and corresponding to the similar symbolic 1,290 days and 1,335 days of Daniel 12, and the "time, times, and a half" mentioned in Daniel 7:25, and in Daniel 12:7. I suggest it is the last half-week of the 70th week of Daniel 9:24-27, when Christ continues to confirm his covenant with his church. In Revelation chapter 12, these numbers are applied to the period for which the woman is in the wilderness, which alludes to the account of the sojourn of the Israelites in the wilderness, led by Moses, before they entered the promised land under Joshua. A prominent feature in chapter 12 is the presence of two separate descriptions of the woman's flight to the wilderness, the first one occurring before the description of the war in heaven, and the second occurring after. In both of these flights to the wilderness, the woman is fed. In her second flight to the wilderness she is equipped with eagle's wings. In both flights to the wilderness, the time specified is similar, and corresponds to the symbolic "time, times, and a half," and its equivalent of 1,260 days, and to the duration of the ministry of the two witnesses. The wilderness depicts the sojourn of Christians in this present life; see 1 Corinthians 10:1-12. The character of the woman's two flights to the wilderness may be contrasted. The 1st flight to the wilderness In her first flight to the wilderness, there is a famine, of "hearing the word of the Lord." [Amos 8:11-13] In her first flight to the wilderness, there is no rain of the word of God, but a famine. The 1,260 days correspond to the three and a half years of no rain in the days of Elijah. The two witnesses have power to "shut heaven." [Revelation 11:6] The "rain" is symbolic of God's word. In her first flight to the wilderness, the holy city is trampled by Gentiles. [Revelation 11:2] People view the prophecies through the spectacles of men who they view as spiritual "giants," and see themselves as "grasshoppers" in comparison to them. They quote from commentaries, and follow the traditions of men that are embraced by particular denominations or sects, that effectively kill the two witnesses, the word, and the Spirit. In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are overcome by the little horn, the Antichrist spirit. [Daniel 7:21, 25] In her first flight to the wilderness, the saints are scattered. [Daniel 12:7] This has been fulfilled, and is shown by the tens of thousands of denominations. In her first flight to the wilderness, the church becomes desolate, like a valley of dry bones. [Ezekiel 37:1-2] In her first flight to the wilderness, the church is plundered by the armies of Gog and Magog. [Ezekiel 38:10-13] In Zechariah's prophecy, in Zechariah 14:1-3, many of the saints are taken into captivity, houses rifled, and women ravished. It is a spiritual seduction, such as Paul alludes to in 2 Corinthians 11:1-3. In her first flight to the wilderness, the world rejoices over the desolation of the church, and the death of the two witnesses. [Revelation 11:10] The 2nd flight to the wilderness In her second flight to the wilderness, the saints have renewed strength. The woman has been given eagle's wings. [Revelation 12:14] The prophecies may be viewed in a new way-from above, as pictured by eagle's wings, whereas in the first flight to the wilderness, her point of view was earth-bound, having "eyes like the eyes of a man." Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. Isaiah said the saints will renew their strength, and "shall mount up with wings as eagles." [Isaiah 40:31] David said God "satisfieth thy mouth with good things; so that thy youth is renewed like the eagle's." [Psalm 103:5] In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, Satan, the accuser of the brethren, has been cast out. [Revelation 12:9] In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the wilderness itself is changed. Isaiah said, the wilderness will be glad; the desert will "blossom as the rose;" [Isaiah 35:1] streams will flow in the desert; [Isaiah 35:6] the mountains and hills bring forth fruit; [Ezekiel 36:11] hills will rejoice. [Psalm 65:11-13] God will make bright clouds, and showers of rain. [Zechariah 10:1] In her second flight to the wilderness, the woman has some help; the flood from the serpent's mouth gets swallowed up by the earth. [Revelation 12:16] The deceptions are exposed. In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the two witnesses come to life, and stand on their feet. [Revelation 11:11] Daniel said the beast is slain, and his body given to the burning flame. [Daniel 7:11] Fire falls on those who "know not God." 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the war between the angels has been fought. The saints are victorious. [Revelation 12:11-12] In the woman's second flight to the wilderness, the ark of the covenant is seen in the temple. [Revelation 11:19] This may be understood as the fulfillment of the new covenant, that says God will write his laws on our hearts, and remembers our sins no more. [Hebrews 10:16-17] The second exodus The woman's flight to the wilderness in Revelation 12:6 & 14 was foretold by the prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah. Isaiah described it in terms of a second exodus. Isaiah 11:10-12 10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. 11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. 12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth. In vs. 10, Isaiah identified the ensign as Christ. Zechariah 9:16 refers to the saints as an ensign. Those who have a part in this great exodus come to worship at Jerusalem. Isaiah 27:13 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem. Isaiah said Jerusalem and Zion would be raised up; [Isaiah 2:2] and in the NT this prophecy is fulfilled, as shown in Hebrews 12:22-23, where Jerusalem is referred to as the "heavenly" Jerusalem; "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem..." According to Jeremiah, the second exodus will eclipse the first one. Jeremiah 16:14-15 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers. Nowhere in the NT are Christians encouraged to go to the land of Canaan, so Jeremiah's reference to "the land that I gave unto their fathers" must refer to the eternal inheritance of the saints, under the figure of the promised land, which was called a "rest," [Psalm 95:11] but was only a type or shadow of the eternal "rest" promised to the saints. [Hebrews 4:8] In the NT, Abraham is called the "father" of those who have faith in Christ. [Romans 4:16] Paul called him "the father of us all." Jeremiah described the second exodus as something so great, and wonderful, that the first one, when Jews came out of Egypt under Moses, will seem insignificant in comparison. Jeremiah 23:7-8 Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land. What is the promised land of the saints? It is not Canaan, but what Canaan represents, the invisible things that the saints hope for. Labour to enter into rest We are to labour, to enter into rest, the promised inheritance, which is a lasting one. This involves faith in the word of God. Hebrews 4:11-12 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Peter said the saints have escaped the corruption that is in the world. 2 Peter 1:3-4 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. In the Olivet discourse, Jesus warned against following anyone trying to lure us away to a desert, or to some secret place, to find the truth. Matthew 24:26-28 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. The place Jesus said we should flee to is not a literal wilderness, but he said "flee to the mountains," referring to the promises of God to the saints. These words of Jesus show that involvement in an obscure sect is not how to follow Christ. The light of the gospel will shine from the east to the west; it will be seen all over the world. An angel said to John, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Revelation 19:10] The two wings of an eagle given to the woman represent an understanding of prophecy. In her second flight to the wilderness, equipped with the powerful wings the eagle, she finds her place, where she is nourished. This follows the victory of the saints over the serpent. An eagle is a predator which feeds on serpents! When the scriptures became widely available, and were translated into the languages of the people, there was much opposition from the established churches and clergy, yet the church was given spiritual nourishment from the scriptures. Many denominations arose, because of varying interpretations. The word itself was translated and distributed around the world. When she flees to the wilderness possessing the wings of eagles, which represent the divine point of view, the prophecies of scripture may be properly interpreted and understood.

Quote @César Chávez This is why, witnesses should not be concerned what role these evil empires will play before judgment day. They just need to know, it will happen, and no one on this earth will be able to do anything about it. Keep on the watch for your own peace of mind to keep your faith alive by these signs is NOT the same as being part of this world with politics. One problem with over thinking is, what perception you are instilling in other people’s minds. The Watchtower “rejects” that notion they are politically involved with any nation, but hear you find witnesses making the Watchtower out to be liars. Therefore, who would be the ones misrepresenting the Watchtower values just to post a headline? @TrueTomHarley I'm glad I amuse you. But the above quote is similar to what i said and was rebuked for. @JW Insider Of course you are all allowed to do whatever you please. All this politics is far beyond my thinking. Plus as I've said before, who knows what 'news' is true and what isn't. @Arauna does seem to have a vast knowledge in these things it seems. The one thing I'm hoping is that you people are not using politics as some people use alcohol. As a means of blinding themselves from the true situation in their life. In this case blinding oneself from the true situation within the CCJW / Watchtower. I wish you all a good day.

Mr Gillies was asked if his religion's policies made provision to apologise for child sexual abuse where there is institutional fault. His answer was, "No". The group asks, how can any organisation move forward willingly in child-focused safeguarding if it cannot conceive of the need to apologise for its failings?

Summing up today Friday 14th August 2020 https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/21108/view/public-hearing-transcript-14-august-2020.pdf I turn to the Jehovah's Witnesses. As we will set out in our written submissions, we feel that much of the evidence from Mr Gillies was evasive and misleading. In the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary, he tried to tell you that the Jehovah's Witnesses don't have any arrangements or activities which separate children from their parents, whether in field service or Bible study or elsewhere. He used this obvious untruth to justify rejecting any secular advice on safeguarding. It was notable just how many pretexts the Jehovah's Witnesses will find not to report abuse or to disclose documents, and we heard more about that obstructionism this morning. The only reasonable conclusion from this litany of excuses is that they simply do not want to report. Mr Gillies was also very discomforted quite clearly by Mr Frank's questions about document destruction. Child sexual abuse is abuse, whether it is perpetrated by an elder or an ordinary member of the congregation, whether in a Kingdom Hall or in a home. By permitting CCJW to present their data so selectively, we are concerned that hundreds, if not thousands, of abuse cases were effectively excluded from consideration. The many victims whose abuse is currently confined to Watchtower's records, especially those whose abuse is yet to be reported, remain completely silenced. Chair, if you fail to seek disclosure of the full data, you unwittingly make things worse for survivors than if you had sought no data at all. Cherry-picked figures -- which the Jehovah's Witnesses repeatedly, and wrongly, characterised as the full figures during this hearing will, we fear, in future be touted by them as the actual figures and they will try to say that they have your stamp of approval.

@TrueTomHarley I said "I don't think anyone is working full time to teach people about Almighty God and His son, right now." Get it right Tom. BUT the GB are restricting the Anointed from serving God properly. And the GB are causing stumbling for many people, so they are not serving God properly. And JWs don't have the 'truth' to teach people as JWs just act as messengers for the GB and it's Org. I quote you Tom "God is incompetent is what you are saying—his holy spirit incapable of motivating peope to do his will. Now look at the history of the Nation of Israel. Was it God's incompetence that caused them to turn their back on God ? Was it that God's holy spirit was incapable of motivating the Jews ? NO. It was the fault of MEN. Just as it is the fault of MEN now. Men (the GB and their helpers and others) are not serving God properly, hence the 'teaching work' is false. They are more concerned with money and material things than they are with doing what is right in God's eyes.

@Arauna Well to put it simply for you then, Jesus found fault where there was fault, in what was supposed to be God's organisation of that time, and I find fault where there is fault, in what is supposed to be God's organisation now. I don't think anyone is working full time to teach people about Almighty God and His son, right now. I do think that JWs are continuing to scare monger people with the 'Final part of the final day' record. But it looks as if some of you are spending your time moaning about the nations of the world. That is not time spent teaching others about God or Christ. However I did spend all morning studying the whole of the June Watchtower which has the study articles for August 3-30 2020. I particularly liked paragraph 20 of the first article on page 7. I really don't know how the GB / helpers can write that with a clear conscience. Don't they know how they are seen by the world right now ? How are they even thinking about 'reflecting properly on Jehovah's name and drawing other to Him', when they are acting in such a selfish and immoral way.

@TrueTomHarley @JW Insider suggested I start a new topic and that is what I have done. Please refer to his comment in that topic if you do not believe me. I can tell you are both hurt by my comparison of the CCJW and Communism But you may note that the IICSA investigation has suggested the same thing. I expect you will condemn the IICSA investigation too. Going one step further than the IICSA, the truth is that, The interests of the GB and CCJW are more important than the interests of each congregant. @Arauna keeps harping on about 'hate - behavior' but she seems to forget that Jesus found fault in the Jewish Religious Leaders and voiced his opinion, condemning them. And I'm sure it would be easy to find written information of the CCJW condemning other religions such as the Catholic Church. As for my knowledge of world topics I'm not deeply interested in being part of that world. Space Merchant says he is a Truther and he digs deep into such things, but for me it is not worth while. I can read news articles but what news is true news ? There is nothing we could do, and nothing we should to, to get involved. And we should not take sides. So, all your 'deep research' into the world's problems is for what ? We all know what we need to know. Each day brings us all closer to the end of this wicked system. But it could still be years away. Hiding in an immoral organisation and protecting those that should be dealt with by the Superior Authorities, whilst 'observing' the wickedness of the world's leaders, does what for you ? Do you get a kick from uploading all that information about China, America, Russia et al ? As an observer it just looks as if you are all trying to out do each other by uploading more and more info'. But then it seems you all have time to waste on it.

@TrueTomHarley Why would i claim to be Anointed ? Surely that would be a type of blasphemy. I am not Anointed and do not expect to be. And there has to be a True Anointed as even your GB say there are 'false' Anointed ones. Ones with mental issues according to your GB. But only time will tell Tom. You can carry on following your GB without question if it pleases you. I for one, will look for a much better, cleaner, spiritual Anointed, that truly serve God. As for 'sex beasts'. All Paedophiles are sex beasts, even the ones hidden in the CCJW.