Patiently waiting for Truth

@JW Insider Comment removed, new topic started.

It seems that some JWs are taking a great interest in worldly politics, Eastern mentality and Communism. So I thought I would compare the same to the CCJW aka JW Org aka Watchtower. @TrueTomHarley Quote "The group is more important than the individual,‘ is the Eastern mentality going back thousands of years, grounded in Confucianism. The individual rights, even needs, are subservient to the group in such a culture. " subservient = prepared to obey others unquestioningly. I didn't realise that the CCJW was grounded in Confucianism. The Org is more important than the individual. @Arauna Quote "The greater good of all is more important than the individual. So a central government can force any law on you for the greater good of society". Yes definitely the GB of the CCJW. 'central government ' = Governing Body.... 'society' = Watchtower Society Please compare :- IICSA Inquiry https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20895/view/public-hearing-transcript-11-august-2020.pdf A question put to the CCJW Page 41. Lines :- 21 Could I just ask, what do you mean by that? Does 22 that mean that the individual must be subjected to the 23 whole? So the interests of the congregation are more 24 important than the interests of the individual? Do you see the connection here ? It is asking the same as I am asking. Please relate this to Tom's comment top of page "The group is more important than the individual,‘ The individual rights, even needs, are subservient to the group in such a culture. " And @Arauna "The greater good of all is more important than the individual' I think people with spiritual wisdom will note the very close similarity here.

https://www.jw.org/en/library/books/bible-teach/what-is-gods-kingdom/ 23 For how long? During the 19th and 20th centuries, sincere Bible students progressively discerned that the waiting period would end in 1914. (Regarding this date, see the Appendix article “1914—A Significant Year in Bible Prophecy.”) World events that began in 1914 confirm that the understanding of these sincere Bible students was correct. The fulfillment of Bible prophecy shows that in 1914, Christ became King and God’s heavenly Kingdom began to rule. Hence, we are living in the “short period of time” that Satan has left. (Revelation 12:12; Psalm 110:2) We can also say with certainty that soon God’s Kingdom will act to cause God’s will to be done on earth. But the disciples were not there. Jesus was already King and had his authority since 33 C.E. So how was the Kingdom set up if no one was there to rule ? Yes of course Almighty God was there, and Jesus Christ was there (and the Angels), but we have learnt that the disciples / Apostles are still asleep in the grave. We have learnt that they will be resurrected at the same time that the living Anointed will be 'transformed' from human to spirit. There had been previous teaching in the CCJW that the Apostles had been resurrected already, but now by studying the scriptures we can see that is not true. So please explain how the Kingdom started to rule in 1914 ? It is God's Kingdom, with Christ as the King, but there seems to be no one else ruling it at this time ?

@TrueTomHarley Oh Tom you must miss me so much when i don't comment, because you have to mention me so much in your comments . I think the reason you don't comment on my topics is because you know what i say is true and you don't have true answers. Quote you Tom "The “obedience” that JWs are expected to render is no more than following directions of the teacher, the coach, the mentor, the employer, the counselor, the traffic cop " Read it through again Tom. All of those mentioned above are NOT inspired of Holy Spirit. AND all of those above DO NOT PRETEND TO BE THE 'FAITHFUL AND DISCREET SLAVE'. BUT, the GB used to pretend to be inspired and they DO pretend to be the F&DS. Plus, if all those people mentioned above were told to keep quiet and not have an opinion, and then they were all replaced with fake workers that didn't have a clue about the TRUE job, then people would not obey them. The true Anointed have been replaced by Elders. Elders judge the members of the congregations. But Elders are not qualified to judge, so they are fake workers. That is why so many people leave the 'Org' and so many people still in the Org do not trust the Elders. It really is time you and others stopped comparing the CCJW with the rest of the world. We all know how wicked the world is. You prove nothing. But, it is obvious that you need to do it to gain some kind of confidence for yourselves. Why? Because you really and truly know how wicked the CCJW is inside when compared to God's standards.

@TrueTomHarley It looks like you have just copied and pasted all that from the other similar topic of yours. Is that called spamming or trolling ? Either way is just a repeat of what you've already written. Are you getting paid per word or per paragraph ? Or have you just lost the 'flow' of writing something new ?

@César Chávez You are soooooo funny. It was you that mentioned 1914. What a clown you are.

@César Chávez I think you will find that 1914 has been knocked into touch long ago. The CCJW / Watchtower may be clinging onto it but its a lost cause.

@4Jah2me https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/aug/10/former-jehovahs-witness-elders-call-for-mandatory-reporting-of-child-sexual-abuse Former Jehovah's Witness elders call for mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse Two former Jehovah’s Witness elders have called for mandatory reporting of child sexual abuse, saying the organisation believes it is “answerable only to God”. Duncan Corbett, who was an elder for 18 years, told the independent inquiry into child sexual abuse that the protection of minors and the handling of abuse claims must be taken out of the church’s hands. “Let them deal with the sin and the authorities handle the crime,” he told a hearing in London. Lloyd Evans, another former elder who now campaigns against religious fundamentalism, said: “This is a group that feels they are answerable only to God … They don’t feel as though they need to yield to any regulations that are imposed on them.” The pair, along with another former Jehovah’s Witness and a survivor of abuse, Sarah Davies, painted a picture in evidence to the inquiry of an organisation that demanded that its leaders be unquestioningly respected and obeyed, and that shunned members who failed to comply with its strict codes.

@The Librarian Sounds familiar. One particular lady JW on here labels me as hate -OCD. But on topic :- I can understand how governments / politicians / people in power, can label JWs as 'extremist'. People in the 'world' do not know God and do not have 'spiritual wisdom', therefore they do not understand the things of God. They only know 'physical things'. And coupled with that most of them do not believe in anything 'after death'. So, people in the world try their best to cling on to material things and think only of their own lives. Hence war, to 'protect' what they have, or to try to take material things from others. Land is one of the most sort after 'material things' it seems. So those 'physical people' cannot understand why JWs don't want to help in 'protecting' or 'stealing' things from others. Added to this is the fear that JWs will stop other people wanting to go to war. The people in power now are much like the Pharisees were, they don't want to lose their power and position.

There is rumour of a second 'lock down' here in UK, coming in September. I don't know if it will happen and if it does happen i don't know if people will stick to it. Could be more protests and chaos. Slightly off topic here but following on from @Srecko Sostar:- As for 'end times', i admit to getting worried about it all. All of us have to remember that 'the time of the end' is not a JW 'invention', so whether we are in, out, thinking about, the Org, we must all remember that what we should be concentrating on is God's written Word, not the CCJW. Jesus told his disciples to 'Keep on the watch' and God's written word recorded that. But by keeping on the watch we can see what a huge mess the 'world' is in, so change is needed one way or another.. Back to topic :- I hope that God, through Christ, completely changes the CCJW. I hope the 'normal' that the Org has known for so long is removed and replaced by much better things. I would love to be part of a clean organisation that was serving God, through Christ, properly. Maybe this virus / lock down time would be a wonderful time to re-evaluate the structure of the CCJW and the Watchtower Soc. We have seen how Russia took everything materially from the Org. So maybe the Org needs to downshift completely earthwide, if the 'end' is so near. I'm sure if Almighty God and Jesus Christ want to bring in changes, then changes will happen. IMO the 'normal' will be gone, just as the Jewish religious system was gone.

@The Librarian Wow. How old is that ?

https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf ✔@InquiryCSA The transcript for Day 12 of the Child Protection in #ReligiousOrganisationsandSettings public hearing has now been published: https://www.iicsa.org.uk/key-documents/20893/view/public-hearing-transcript-10-august-2020.pdf …

@John Houston Am I of the Anointed you ask. I don't think I am, but it does seem I have more of a Christian Bible trained conscience than most JWs have. It is only your opinion that I have 'anger and frustration'. Though do tell me what hating immorality has to do with " wanting the greater of position, not having a humble heart as Jesus tried to teach them.". Using your idea here it would look as if Jesus didn't have a humble heart because he certainly told the Pharisees their faults. Your question "Could you have done a better job with this matter of child abuse if you had the authority?" Yes I could have done a better job, and i would have done a better job at it too. I wouldn't have hid any of it. Do you remember the Apostle Paul making it clear about the man that was having sex with his own father's wife. And he told the congregation to sort it out. Paul didn't mince his words and didn't hide anything either. Your questions " The 'anointed' would be judges, correct? But not now in this system right? Actually I think the True Anointed (which does not include the GB) should be judges now in some capacity. BUT, instead the ELDERS and the Circuit Overseers act as judges now. Who is it that disfellowships congregants ? THEY are the ones who are acting as judges now. BUT it is not the Anointed doing it, it is the Elders who act as judges now. And do you think the Elders are closer to God and Christ than the Anointed ? So that the Elders should be judges ? And unfortunately you copy all other JWs with this wrong idea about Moses. MOSES was INSPIRED OF GOD. Your GB, their helpers, the Elders et al, are NOT Inspired by God. Those MEN in authority in the CCJW / Watchtower Soc' are put in place by other men. It is all the work of MEN. None of them are inspired. None of them are spirit led. How can i tell ? By Their Works You Will Know Them. Your words "Jesus knew the Jewish system was a failure, but while here he did not rise against it, The Jewish System was put in place by GOD. And in fact Jesus was put to death because HE did rise against it. Jesus made clear its faults. Jesus made clear those whom were not serving God properly. Jesus started the NEW way of serving God. BUT the CCJW / Watchtower does not compare to the Jewish system of things. Looking at the history of the 'Org' it has told lies from the very beginning. It has made false 'predictions' and spread false prophecies. It has used fear to almost force people to serve the Organisation. The ongoing threat that "Unless you are a baptised JW you will die at Armageddon". The GB exalting themselves to the position of being the Faithful and Discreet Slave, and then telling other Anointed not to meet together or they would be 'working against he holy spirit'. If you cannot see all that as wrong then you seem to have lost your direction. Maybe you are in your comfort zone. Almighty God, working through Christ, will surprise all JWs quite soon I believe. God and Christ have two choices. They can either cleanse the CCJW, or, they can start a new organisation using the True Anointed. If they cleanse the CCJW it would seem the GB would have to be removed and replaced with True Anointed ones. The new Anointed Servants may well come from around the Earth, not from America. 'World conditions' are obviously getting much worse. Armageddon must be getting closer day by day. So I cannot see God or Christ letting the CCJW carry on as they are for much longer. The scripture at Luke 17 v 1&2 Then he said to his disciples: “It is unavoidable that causes for stumbling should come. Nevertheless, woe to the one through whom they come! 2 It would be more advantageous for him if a millstone were hung from his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to stumble one of these little ones. Th GB and their helpers are the 'causes for stumbling'. The Child Sexual Abuse / Paedophilia in the CCJW is a cause for stumbling. The lack of apology and not wanting to give compensation is a cause of stumbling. The GB telling the Anointed not to spend time together is a cause for stumbling. The GB stating that the Anointed would be 'working against the holy spirit' is a cause for stumbling and probably an insult to God and Christ. I think you are too close to the 'Org' to see its faults. I think JWs are blind to God's standards because JWs follow the GB's rules and standards. Just take a hour of your time to stand back and see the reality. Do research and see what people are saying. (I wonder if the Librarian will make this a new topic)

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/jehovahs-witness-child-abuse-sex-18717755 "My mother... she's sacrificing me to gain eternal life" I've put just a few of the paragraphs here, but read the whole thing please if you have time. PLUS it seems the IICSA MEETING is TODAY 10TH AUGUST 2020 A boy forced himself on me when I was younger," she says, almost apologetically. "I told my mother and she said I needed to tell the elders. So I went to them and explained what had happened. I was 16 and I was reproved even though it wasn't my fault. "The questions about what I was wearing and whether I enjoyed it were so violating and so degrading. My mother said if I'd been more immersed in the Jehovah's Witnesses then it would never had happened." ------------------------------ "It was that murky line between putting your foot down and saying no you can't see your grandchildren and trying to maintain some sort of contact," said Sian. But when her children came home with tales that nan was saying their mum was going to die, she put her foot down. ------------------------------- Sian's story is one of hundreds that have come to light in recent years, prompting concerns of prevalent sex abuse within the Jehovah's Witnesses. Stories of abuse within religious groups are not limited to the Jehovah's Witnesses however, an issue which has led to The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse (IICSA) being formed. Chaired by Professor Alexis Jay OBE, the inquiry was set up because of serious concerns that some organisations had failed and were continuing to fail to protect children. Also attended by the Anglican Church and the Roman Catholic Church, the opening statements in the inquiry were read out on March 16 right before Covid-19 struck. Representatives of other religions apologised for shortfalls within their organisations. Shane Brady, counsel for the Christian Congregation of Jehovah’s Witnesses, did not. He stuck closely to his well-prepared outline, failing to express any collective regret. Not even at that moment did he acknowledge that child sexual abuse had happened among Jehovah’s Witnesses. Lockdown delayed subsequent, more extensive evidence-giving until this month and on August 10 the inquiry resumes. On Monday morning, former Jehovah's Witness Sarah Davies will present evidence to the inquiry about the mishandling of child sex abuse cases within the Jehovah's Witnesses organisation. Originally from Cardiff, Sarah will present evidence that has been collectively submitted by the group Ex-JW Advocates Opposing Crimes Against Children. In an open letter addressed to "The leaders of Jehovah's Witnesses in the UK", survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses from across the country have demanded an apology. They say: "We, the survivors of child sex abuse at the hands of Jehovah’s Witnesses, seek a public apology; we invite you to “say sorry” on behalf of your UK religious organisation, for your inadequate policies which have failed to protect us and the wider public from perpetrators of child sex abuse. "During the ongoing sex abuse inquiry in England and Wales by IICSA four religious institutions, including Jehovah’s Witnesses on August 10, have the opportunity to go on public record with an apology; we ask you to admit that you are among the institutions that have let children down in the past and substantiate your claim to “abhor child abuse” with a contrite apology, as other religious institutions have done, rather than claim that you “do not have the institutional settings” to merit being investigated by IICSA." A spokesman for the Jehovah's Witnesses said: "An explanation of our beliefs and policies will be presented during the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse."

@TrueTomHarley Well at least i must be consistent. you keep saying i only talk about one thing.

@TrueTomHarley Yes, I'm sure the Org would say the same about their pet phrase.

@TrueTomHarley I'm surprised that JWs would be politically motivated to take sides on such issues. But i had no part in your comment being moved. Neither do I have time to study 'world politics' as you people seem to find time to do. However separating 'religion' from politics seems a good idea even if some folks don't like the rules.

@TrueTomHarley you do have a serious problem don't you ? You do worship your Gb and it's Org. You really have either been brainwashed or have deliberately blinded your self. It's in the BIBLE Tom, it is not from your CCJW or Watchtower. Your Leaders did not invent it. Your Leaders were not the only ones to find it. And it may be that your Leaders have got some things wrong too. You make false presumptions that people only learn 'truth' once they 'enter the Org'. And you make false presumptions that all people are misled or misguided by some church or other. Most people I know have never been to church for the teachings, only for weddings and funerals. Stop fooling yourself Tom, people are not as stupid as you like to think they are. Well here in the UK they are not so stupid anyway. Just because this man says “Most people today would be surprised to learn ", you jump on that as being true. You are no different than anyone else Tom, you use the 'statements' from people to suit your own purpose. Somewhere else you might say that 'most people don't believe in God anymore'. I do find it funny that you tell me I would never have found scripture on my own. But I think you forget about how many lies I was taught in the Org. 7000 year creative Days, Armageddon coming in the 70's. And it seems most likely now that 1914 means nothing, and that Jesus was given his authority in 33 C. E. Matthew 28 v 18 Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you. And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” Think on this scripture for a while Tom. And then think on how your Org baptises people. And then think on how your GB tells the Anointed not to gather together for study or prayer, and how your GB says it would be 'working against the spirit'. As for the expression “coming into the truth”, it's a con Tom. A very clever con. It's a bit like your user name. 'True... You follow the Org's example of the same con. When people become JWs they are brainwashed with the expression 'coming into the truth' or 'I'm in the truth'. It's a con because it makes people drop their guard. New JWs automatically accept ALL CCJW / W/t teachings without question because they are told it is 'truth'. But as I've mentioned above it is not all truth. Or is he (more likely, I think, but only suggested—far from proof) ripping off the views of the Watchtower without crediting them? Those are your words. Doesn't that mean copying them ? Or does it just mean stealing them ? Have a great day Tom, but please open your heart and mind a bit, think outside the CCJW / W/t box.

@TrueTomHarley @TrueTomHarley Yes I'd noticed that JWs on here were creating a smoke screen by talking about China etc, instead of looking at the faults in the CCJW and the problems with the GB. Very 'political' to shift the attention on to others that are doing bad things, but very expected of JWs. I wouldn't say that moaning about China was part of 'Keeping on the watch', more like 'being part of the world' As for all this rubbish about some one copying the Watchtower. You, and others, seem to find it impossilbe to believe that anyone outside the W/t and CCJW has a mind of their own. Your Org, your GB, the Watchtower, must be copying the Bible in 'some' of it's teachings, only some though . So is it then impossible for someone else to do the same ? Remembering that your GB are not inspired, and besides which, most of the 'beliefs' in the CCJW were set up way before the words Governing Body were used publicly... Why are people, in your opinion, supposed to read their Bible, if they cannot make any sense of it ? But when some one does make sense of it and then puts it into words, you say they are copying the Watchtower. Even i can make sense of the 'simple bits'. 'The dead are conscious of nothing at all' is quite easy to understand for instance. I'll go along with what you said here "I’m jealous over some of it" , Yes I think you are.

https://www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/north-staffordshire-sex-beast-finally-4401250 Sex beast Mark Longshaw has finally been jailed for inappropriately touching two children - more than three decades after his crimes were 'brushed under the carpet' by Jehovah’s Witness elders. Stoke-on-Trent Crown Court heard he inappropriately touched two children and made them touch him. Elders became aware of the incidents and helped the defendant to ‘cover it up’. “He has had no offences since this came to a conclusion and was disclosed to the church elders at the time. He accepts they helped to brush it under the carpet.” But blind JWs will say it's all lies and will say how wonderfully safe the CCJW is. If they could hide it then what stops them hiding it now ? And, just think that the GB gives more power to those Elders than to the True Anointed ones. Some things really do have to change in that Org.

Thursday 6th August 2020 https://www.keepthefaith.co.uk/2020/08/06/inquiry-to-hold-further-public-hearing-in-child-protection-in-religious-organisations-and-settings-investigation/ The Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse is holding a further week of public hearings in the Child Protection in Religious Organisations and Settings investigation, from 10 – 14 August. Following the initial two week public hearing in May earlier this year, we will continue to examine child protection policies and safeguarding cultures in religious organisations in England and Wales. These include Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baptists, Methodists, Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Buddhism and non-conformist Christian denominations. Evidence will be heard from a wide range of witnesses, including victims and survivors, religious organisations, charities, local authorities, central government and third sector bodies who provide training and support in the field. This investigation will focus on the measures religious organisations employ to keep children safe from sexual abuse and to properly handle safeguarding concerns. Set to take place virtually, proceedings will be streamed live on the Inquiry’s website. Witnesses will continue to be supported by the Inquiry’s Support and Safeguarding team, through phone and video calls.

August 5th 2020 Old news revisited, but this must be costing the CCJW a bit of money. https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2020/08/jehovahs-witness-sexual-abuse-report-can-stay-online-judge-rules/ A report into the handling of sexual abuse among Jehovah’s Witnesses does not have be removed from a government site, a court in Arnhem has decided. It is the second time the Dutch branch of the church has gone to court over the report. In January it tried to stop publication but at the time judges ruled it should be published in the public interest. Just 25% of victims said they were satisfied at the way their complaints against the community had been handled and only 27% of cases were ever passed on to the police or other officials. Most of the reports related to abuse in the past, with just 32 covering the past 10 years.

@César Chávez It could not be more of a misconception than your idea that Moses and your GB have anything in common. We know that God spoke directly to Moses but we also know that God does not speak directly or even indirectly to your GB. If God spoke directly to the GB then the GB would not err spiritually in spoken or written word. Unfortunately your GB err many times and so do their helpers.

I was answering C.C. about 'When did God actually speak to the people" And of course we need to go to scripture for answers, but what i found raised a couple of questions. I'll quote scriptures first. Matthew 3 v 16 & 17. After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.” Luke 3 v 21 & 22 Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus too was baptized. As he was praying, the heaven was opened up, 22 and the holy spirit in bodily form like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” John 1 v 32 -34 John also bore witness, saying: “I viewed the spirit coming down as a dove out of heaven, and it remained upon him. 33 Even I did not know him, but the very One who sent me to baptize in water said to me: ‘Whoever it is upon whom you see the spirit coming down and remaining this is the one who baptizes in holy spirit.’ 34 And I have seen it, and I have given witness that this one is the Son of God.” Mark 1 v 9- 11 In the course of those days, Jesus came from Nazʹa·reth of Galʹi·lee and was baptized in the Jordan by John. 10 And immediately on coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens being parted and, like a dove, the spirit coming down upon him. 11 And a voice came out of the heavens: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.” What I'm wondering is, who saw the Holy Spirit in the form of the dove 'coming down upon' Jesus ? And, Who heard the voice of God from heaven speaking ? The Matthew scripture shoes it as God speaking to the people, but Mark and Luke show it as God speaking to Jesus. The scripture in John (Apostle John) , tells us that John ( the Baptiser ) saw the spirit 'coming down' and 'remaining' on Jesus. Whereas Mathew and Mark say that he saw, that is Jesus saw, the spirit 'coming down' and remaining upon him. My point being here that Jesus came to be baptised when many others were being baptised. For instance, if 500 people were present and all 500 saw the dove descend and heard God's voice, then all 500 would have known (and believed) that Jesus is the son of God. But, if only John the Baptiser and Jesus saw the dove and heard God's voice then only the two of them would have known (and 'believed') it. Also am I right in thinking that Jesus wanted his 'work' kept secret at first ? Didn't Jesus tell some that he cured to 'tell no one'

2 hours ago, César Chávez said: Where in scripture do you find God spoke directly to the people? Maybe here. I say maybe and I will start a new topic. Matthew 3 v 16& 17. After being baptized, Jesus immediately came up from the water; and look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw God’s spirit descending like a dove and coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, a voice from the heavens said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”