Patiently waiting for Truth

So @TrueTomHarley never asks anyone's opinion of anything. Oh, hang on, he does actually, he asks the GB / CCJW / Watchtower opinion of everything by hanging on to their every word.. So that he can think like them. But Tom's opinion about Elders seems to be that they are robots programmed to only give GB viewpoints. As one human being, i was asking another human being their point of view on a matter. But Tom doesn't seem to like that idea. I think it frightens him. The idea of actually having a personal opinion is something foreign to Tom it seems. I wonder how the Governing Body work then ? If they are not allowed to ask other people's opinion. And Elders in a congregation. not allowed to ask other people's opinions. Quote "you think it is right that Christians should be followers of men?" You are a followed of men Tom, you follow your GB and their helpers. Quote "God’s laws and principles are to be found in the Bible. That is where the guidance and boundaries are. That is where members are to go so as to grow spiritually." Yes indeed, and people do go to God's word, and by doing so they prove to themselves that your GB / W/t teachings are wrong. And one does not have to be a JW to do it either. Maybe you would like to discuss with @Space Merchant whether you need to be a JW to obtain guidance from God's word and to grow spiritually. Quote " The hope is that they should grow to maturity, make decisions per God’s laws and principles, " But by CCJW standards those 'decisions made' have to be inline with the GB / JW Org. So basically the decisions are made for you. You see how you follow men.

Quote ..Because we don’t follow watchtower...no matter what others say....or try to infer on many of us here. That is so funny. No more than a month ago I was talking with an Elder on the telephone and I asked him about his view on something. His reply was that he would have to go and do some research on it. I wanted HIS viewpoint, not the Org's viewpoint, but i do know that JWs are told not to give their own personal viewpoint on anything relating to the Bible or the Org. (been there, done that)

It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. And his context was only that it fit the time from Jesus' birth to the year 70. If you read the entire reference, you can see that it's just as much about how Jesus' words would fit the period of 40 years from the year 30 to the year 70. And that it would fit the 75 year idea, too. @JW Insider This is what you wrote. So, you seem to be saying that the W/t took it completely out of context, and that the statement was completely false. Is my assumption correct ? Now the Organisation / Watchtower / CCJW / GB are supposed to be 'spirit directed' is this correct ? If you add what TTH said to what you said then I cannot see any direction of Holy Spirit at all. You and Tom really do seem to forget that you are talking about, what is supposed to be the Faithful and Discreet Slave, giving the proper food at the right time. This organisation you belong to is supposed to be the 'one and only Truth', but it is full of un-truth as you keep telling us all so clearly. Another quote "but chronology is one of those things that we still carry on from traditions that go back nearly 150 years now. " Traditions of men ? Wasn't that a fault of the Jewish religious leaders ?

Yes @Space Merchant I do realise that Jesus has all authority and power given to him and that he leads God's people by the use of Holy Spirit. The point i was making was that a person does not need to be guided by the CCJW or Watchtower or their GB. I think in part you would agree with this ? You yourself are not a JW but you feel you have a close relationship with God through Christ. Mr Harley seems to feel that a person has to be a JW and work inline with that organisation to be able to serve God. @TrueTomHarley I've noticed that you have changed your comment.

@TrueTomHarley He lost all his kids—none will speak with him. And for what? So as to spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread? That is worth losing your family for? You are a writer, and like many writers you write in riddles. But the gist of the above is that James spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread? James spoke truth. He didn't shy away from it. And if his children turned away from him for his speaking truth, then his children are at fault, not James. And if you are still so spiritually immature that you need to be 'bottle fed' by your GB, and if you are brainwashed into believing that the CCJW have God's approval, then you seriously have a problem for yourself. Its a good job the disciples didn't feel that they still needed to be bottle fed by the Scribes and the Pharisees after Jesus was no longer on Earth. After Jesus had been resurrected to heaven the disciples had no leader on earth. They relied on being guided from above, by Holy Spirit.

Quote TTH This is always the case in any paper about anything. Everyone selects point of support. Nobody selects points that undermine their premise. I see no reason to spin it as though it were some sort of conspiracy. There is scarcely anyone who does not do it. BUT the CCJW & W/t, say they are NO PART OF THE WORLD. That is supposed to be the BIG difference. Tom is just showing that they are really no different to any other religion or organisation in this world..

@TrueTomHarley Should you be telling us about his personal life, or had he made it all public previously ? And should you be judging him and casting him in with us 'wicked ones' ? As for judging us others (that you mentioned), maybe you have decided to dislike us for other reasons. For my part i think you misunderstand me / dislike me, because I'm not American. I don't understand this part of JTR's comment :- With whatever time I have left, it is going to be my life's challenge, so I bid each of you so long, and hope you stay closer to Jehovah than I did. But I think it was meant for those of you that knew him much better. The leaders of the Organisation are the cause of people not talking to each other. But sensible people bypass the Org and it's leaders and communicate anyway.

@Space Merchant i.e. said claim of yours stated that they said Armageddon would happen on 1975, but there was no claim made by them to suggest such, anywhere. could see was a short time ahead in which to finish the work assigned to them." Watchtower 1968 Aug 15 p.494 Why Are You Looking Forward to 1975?

Quote @JW Insider It's a little bit like the way the Watch Tower publications used J.A.Bengel, above, completely out of context on his point about the Hebrews believing a generation was 75 years. First of all the statement was completely false. Are you here giving us another example of how the Watchtower leaders were dishonest ?

I think it's funny when the CCJW / W/t, that are 'No part of the world' quote from a professor of history, Robert Wohl so many times. Even when God's word says " Do not put your trust in princes, Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help." And the GB / Org says Higher Education is of no use and should be avoided. And how many times did they use quotes from this 'worldly educated man' ? Um, the Leaders of the JW Org must have been very unstable to have to use such quotes so many times. God's word does not need backing up by worldly men's words, but it seems the Watchtower needed backing up by them.

@Space Merchant Like I've said before you will always disagree with me just for the sake of trying to look superior. I hope it brings you joy. It certainly gives me something to laugh at. And if I write that the CCJW / GB say that a person 'must be a baptised Jehovah's Witness to gain salvation', will you disagree with this too ? And are you saying that any Non Trinitarian Christian can gain salvation no matter what religion they are, or even if they have no denomination ? Now that would be in disagreement with the JW GB. Quote "Also your claims from before, you can at least attempt to prove them instead of shying away from them, I see you laughed, but cannot bite, as usual " When I show you truth you are too blind to see it so there is no point. You only believe what you want to believe, and you THINK you know better than me or others. I was right about the Governing Body exalting themselves above their 'Fellow Slaves' as in the parable. But you won't agree with me. For that GB to suddenly decide only they, those 8 men, are the Faithful slave and for them to assume the others of the Anointed are NOT the Faithful Salve, shows the GB up to be the wicked slave. However like I say, you wish to convey yourself as knowing more than others, so there is little point in talking directly to you. In fact I tend now to use my comments to communicate with others even if I do link your name to them.

Quote @JW Insider Also there is a difference in not being honest and being dishonest. One may not be honest without realizing it, through sloppy research, biased thinking, misunderstanding, steeped in tradition etc. When something comes across as dishonest, I have stated the case to persons in responsible positions who will understand the problem. I don't treat anything as if there was purposeful dishonesty. Quote @JW Insider We have quite simply used a false definition of "generation." This is not honest. It brings shame and reproach on Jehovah's name and on the organization and brotherhood that we love. It is clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and is apparently done so out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, which is always easier than humbly admitting that we just don't know. It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be. * * (see 1975 below ) If, this was clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and if it was done out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, then it WAS DISHONEST. So I hope you have "stated the case to persons in responsible positions who will understand the problem" It's nice that you don't judge anything as 'purposefully dishonest' but there must come a time when truth has to be told. As for this is bit, I quote : - It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be. Reminder of the 1975 fiasco then. And, in the March 15, 1980 Watchtower the Society said its claims about 1975 were regretted.

and hope you stay closer to Jehovah than I did. Your closeness to God does not depend on your closeness to the CCJW. Your love of God, Christ and truth is what matters.

I quote you @Space Merchant " Christians today, who are prophets, of any kind are not inspired and are not infallible and such makes up the majority of Non-Trinitarians today, even to our counterparts who are the Jehovah's Witnesses. Us Christians are Spirit led prophets, the ability to spread the gospel truth and the truth about the Messianic Age, for this is something of which he both have in common. " Well here are the 'uninspired prophets' of the Bible Students and Jehovah's Witnesses :- Jehovah's Witnesses[edit] Main article: Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions Charles Taze Russell, the first president of the Watch Tower Society, calculated 1874 as the year of Christ's Second Coming, and taught that Christ was invisibly present and ruling from the heavens since that year.[13][14][15][16] Russell proclaimed Christ's invisible return in 1874,[17] the resurrection of the saints in 1875,[18] and predicted the end of the "harvest" and the Rapture of the saints to heaven for 1878,[19] and the final end of "the day of wrath" in 1914.[20] 1874 was considered the end of 6,000 years of human history and the beginning of judgment by Christ.[21] A 1917 Watch Tower Society publication predicted that in 1918, God would begin to destroy churches and millions of their members.[22] J.F. Rutherford, who succeeded Russell as president of the Watch Tower Society, predicted that the Millennium would begin in 1925, and that biblical figures such as Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and David would be resurrected as "princes". The Watch Tower Society bought property and built a house, Beth Sarim, in California for their return.[23] From 1966, statements in Jehovah's Witness publications raised strong expectations that Armageddon could arrive in 1975. In 1974 Witnesses were commended for selling their homes and property to "finish out the rest of their days in this old system" in full-time preaching.[24] In 1976 The Watchtower advised those who had been "disappointed" by unfulfilled expectations for 1975 to adjust their viewpoint because that understanding was "based on wrong premises".[25] Four years later, the Watch Tower Society admitted its responsibility in building up hope regarding 1975.[26] Do you think they were guided by God's Holy Spirit ? Deuteronomy 18 v 20 through 22. 20 “‘If any prophet presumptuously speaks a word in my name that I did not command him to speak or speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.a 21 However, you may say in your heart: “How will we know that Jehovah has not spoken the word?” 22 When the prophet speaks in the name of Jehovah and the word is not fulfilled or does not come true, then Jehovah did not speak that word. The prophet spoke it presumptuously. You should not fear him.’ And do you think the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses are now guided by God's Holy Spirit ? Matthew 24 v 24 For false Christs and false prophetsa will arise and will perform great signs and wonders so as to mislead,b if possible, even the chosen ones Anyone that understands God's written word can preach the 'Good news of God's Kingdom' but to put a date or time on it is 'going beyond the things written'. And if a person should be of the Anointed heavenly calling then i would think by doing so they would be sinning against the spirit.

Yes JWs do as they are told, and it seems they are told to let people die. I honestly do not think that God, Christ or the Bible say that people should just die because the GB say no blood transfusions.

You Americans are strange folks. I can almost understand why you so willingly accept the GB as being ok. Because you are all so off the rail you think it is natural.

Quote @JW Insider We have quite simply used a false definition of "generation." This is not honest. It brings shame and reproach on Jehovah's name and on the organization and brotherhood that we love. It is clearly a stretching of the definition beyond what is legitimately possible, and is apparently done so out of presumptuousness and haughtiness, which is always easier than humbly admitting that we just don't know. It is also based on a feeling that rank-and-file Witnesses can't be trusted to keep urgently busy and alert unless someone is reminding them of how close the end might be. This paragraph should be put up in lights and remembered by ALL who visit this forum. @Space Merchant Please inwardly digest this paragraph above. @JW Insider is referring to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses here. Those 8 men that call themselves the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'. The paragraph shows no sign of anyone being either Faithful or Discreet. It shows dishonesty, falseness, presumptuousness and haughtiness. And more importantly, it brings shame on God. Before deriding me, please remember those words in that paragraph are from a JW with JW parents, and who's father is an Elder. All this without mentioning, which i will now, this 'new light' about 2034 being the new 1975. And that idea being based on people living for 120 years, where as Psalms 90 v 10 says :- The span of our life is 70 years,Or 80 if one is especially strong.*But they are filled with trouble and sorrow;They quickly pass by, and away we fly So doesn't that knock a hole in the 120 years theory ? I'm sorry but I'm laughing at you all. You all know how bad the GB are and how badly the CCJW is being run, but you all still love it so much because it tickles your ears. Whereas if you really wanted to serve God properly you would try to change the GB and the running of the Org. Because God and Christ would be more important to you than your GB.

@Arauna Well at least you are good for a laugh. And the True Anointed will be much more important as time moves along. Because, as I said, more will be expected of them. They will be the link between God/Christ and those of the Earthly hope. And as I've said before, but no one wants to believe me, the Greek scriptures are for the Anointed to fully understand because God, through Christ, will supply holy spirit to them at the right time. Plus the scripture in Revelation 5 :- 9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue* and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdomp and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” So, the ones that Jesus bought with His blood, he made into 1. A Kingdom, 2. Priests to our God, and 3. to rule as Kings over the Earth. That is the Anointed. That is who Jesus' blood bought. They will not get a second testing once resurrected as spirit persons, but Humans will get a second testing after the 1,000 years. I'm using scripture here, but you will still say I'm wrong. Have a good day.

Well one of the things the GB through their 'management' told 'you' as a congregant, was to not report Child Sexual Abuse to the police or outside authorities. And another thing it told congregation elders was not to name paedophiles in the congregations and not to tell the whole congregation that there was a paedophile amongst them. And you agree with that in principle ? Doesn't that makes you part of the problem ? I think to use that scripture as a generalisation is not so good.

@Space Merchant i just have to laugh at all your above comment. You THINK you know so much, but you are spiritually blind. You will keep believing what you believe and i will keep searching for Truth. But i will not generalise and I will not just accept stupidity from those that pretend to know more.

@Space Merchant I think you generalise too much. Quote 'that such people, Christians, whomever they are,' The true church of our time has to be the True Anointed of our time. These modern day Anointed are joint heirs of the promise and joint parts of the Body of Christ. In the eyes of God they are equal to the original Apostles. These modern day Anointed are the 'men standing in the market place on the eleventh hour', and the Master sends them into the vineyard to work with those that have been working all day. At the end of the day they all received the same reward. These ones, the Spiritual Jew, are more important that the ones hoping for the Earthly life. More is expected of these ones. Hence we need to know for sure who they are, for they will lead God's people through the coming Judgement. Zechariah 8 v 23 Berean Study BibleThis is what the LORD of Hosts says: “In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue will tightly grasp the robe of a Jew, saying, ‘Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.’” So it isn't 'whomever they are', it is specific chosen ones that need to take the lead. But the problem is, it has to be proven that they are the true chosen ones.

@Space Merchant Quote " Yes, there are many churches, but the question is, of which church, be it organized or not, is following the True Church? " The 'True Church' is surely the Anointed ones that are the Body of Christ. The 'Spiritual Jew'. So how do we know who they are ?

@Space Merchant You write a lot and basically say nothing. So many people on here do that. As for copyright laws, they do not interest me because my point wasn't, do they have the legal right, my point was that Jesus said, recorded at Matthew 5 V 39 However, I say to you: Do not resist the one who is wicked, but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other also to him. Basically Jesus said 'Just let it go by'. However, the GB and their Lawyers are just looking to create diversion, to take people's eyes away from all the Child Sexual Abuse accusations and court cases. And regarding the GB calling themselves the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave', you do know that in the past ALL the remaining ones of the Anointed were known as the 'Faithful and Discreet Slave'. So who gave the GB the right to change it ? Remember that the GB admit to NOT being inspired by God's Holy Spirit. But some how they WERE 'inspired' to exalt themselves above their Fellow Slaves. Hence showing themselves to be the wicked slave. But of course you will not agree with me.

Many JWs here in UK are window cleaners.

Quote "There is a simple principle that it is not good to seek one's own glory. " However, to balance up the above thoughts :- God's words through Moses at Exodus 9 v 16 16 " But for this very reason I have kept you in existence: to show you my power and to have my name declared in all the earth " Repeated by the Apostle Paul at Romans 9 v 17 For the scripture says to Pharʹaoh: “For this very reason I have let you remain: to show my power in connection with you and to have my name declared in all the earth.” Note the subtle difference (highlighted in red) in the two scriptures, as the first was directed to Pharaoh, but the second was directed to the Anointed ones here on this Earth. Both however were to show God's power. Not exactly seeking HIS own glory, but more to proving a point. (Strange how scripture refs are so similar)