Evacuated

My post crossed yours so perhaps addressed some of the points that you raised before it was posted. I agree that Brother Klein sits in the 2nd group and also that his bit of stumbling does not negate his anointing. There are bound to be extreme examples in comparing these groups. I would include in this attempts to extend the "generation" to the limit by saying that there could be somone who lives even longer than Bro Franz in the 2nd group. This is just pointless in view of the unknown day and hour. Similarly pointless is postulating on the basis of "What happens if the 2nd group all die off and the end isn't here?" That just gets us into something akin to the "Who created God?" loop.

It is only ALL if the explanation is actually not reasonable. An individual's feeling that the explanation is not reasonable is no criteria for assuming ALL have a problem with it. I know there is a human tendency to feel that whatever seems illogical (or logical for that matter) to the individual must be the truth for everyone. That's why some seek to impose matters of personal conscience on others. BUT believing that something is wrong or right does not make it so does it? I mean we've all heard of Flat Earth societies haven't we? And of course many would put Jehovah's Witnesses in the same category. So, for me it is not "ALL of us have a problem". It is SOME of us have a problem. I find the simple concept of an overlapping group of people, boundaried by two events so that all witness at least one of those events, and all sharing a period of time alive together, to be a quite reasonable explanation of how a generation could extend to a period in excess of the life span of one person. So it is not a problem for me. The concept is not crucial to me, as "concerning that day or the hour no one knows". What I mean is that having this explanation or not having it has made no difference to my faith or sense of urgency regarding the times in which we live. As I have pointed out elsewhere on this forum, the system of things ended for me the day I learned the "truth". The information in Hebrews 11 particularly helped me to see my time of life in the context of a long line of those who have excercised faith and who have served Jehovah with a full focus on the "city having real foundations", regardless of when that hope would be realised. And, as I have stated, none of my immediate associates seem to have a problem either with this "overlapping" idea so I repeat, it is not "ALL of us have a problem", it is SOME of us have a problem. I agree with the baseline as having been set out by Brother Jack Barr at the AGM October 3, 2009. Later embellishments are simply that. This analogy is simply a device I use myself to illustrate the concept of overlap between two groups, and nothing more. This is NOT an attempt to impose a doctorine or to suggest that the race concept exists anywhere other than in my imagination. I do not expect this illustration to appear anywhere else. And given that, I can adjust the detail as I see fit to better suit what I am seeking to analogize. And that I will do. For my benefit, a two stage relay is appropriate in that there is one start point, one finish point, and one overlap. In this race only 2 teams (or stages) count because only 2 teams can span the full course with one interchange. To avoid confusion, as there are no competitors in this race, teams are an unnecessary detail. Let's just focus on the one team which has two runners, each representing a group of anointed. The first runner represents those who saw 1914CE. The second runner represents those who did not, but who will see the "great tribulation". The common feature shared is that they overlap like runners in a relay. Now it should be clear why I say there could be other runners in the field. For example one who sees the start but not the finish; one who starts after the overlap has taken place etc. etc. Given the circumstance the race is analogous to, (that is a group of anointed Christians spanning the period from 1914CE until the "great tribulation" whose lives whilst anointed overlap), then only one group could fit the criteria given. Namely, they see either the beginning (1914CE), OR the end (the "great tribulation") AND their life overlaps with one who has. That to me excludes any other group or stage or runner or whatever permutation of circumstance one might invent. In the course of our discussion, I introduced a further illustration to emphasize why I focus only on a two stage race. I took the whole period of time from Pentecost to the "great tribulation". I divided all the anointed during that period into 4 groups as you have quoted above. This is just an arbitrary division, (I could have cited 6, 10 or 20 groups), to try and emphasize why only two stages are important. The anointed represented in these final two stages meet the criteria described: Namely, they see either the beginning (1914CE), OR the end (the "great tribulation") AND their life overlaps with one who has. And this would be so regardless of the number of groups preceding 1914CE. The detail regarding any of the anonted prior to 1914CE has no significance relative to the overlapping concept UNLESS their lives extend through to overlap with those who continue to live until the "great tribulation". Then they become part of the "generation" the illustration is seeking to assist in the identification thereof. I am still struggling to see why anyone has a problem with understanding this simple concept. It can only be because it conflicts with their understanding of what constitutes the "last days".

Look, there is something wrong here, The law of diminishing returns it LOOKS like, but not necessarily. I don''t personally know anyone (so far) who has a problem with this issue, (any more than I actually knew anyone who had a problem with the 1975 thing). However, I am not so naive to think that there are not those who do have a problem with these matters. Presumably, you are one, and you seem to know many others who do. That's good because I don't either so let's leave it out of this discussion. Where do we go from here? Let's have the relay illustration???

Agreed entirely (Your latest post came in after my last response.) Well, up till now I respect you at your word so I can see you have a problem with the 607BCE date for the destruction of Jerusalem, From that comes an issue with the Gentile Times ending in 1914CE, and a whole load of other issues on chronology. But, I thought from other posts chronology was not something that particularly concerns you?

This is you quoting me. What is the problem here? We have a a relay race. 4 stages (in the modern concept) This applies only to ANOINTED CHRISTIANS. Ist stage= 1st Century Christians; 2nd stage=true Christians, after the Apostle John, down to the 19th Century (you tell me who they were, if you can); 3rd stage=those true Christians leading up to and past 1914CE; 4th stage=those born after 1914CE but who overlap the lives of those who actually saw 1914CE, and who will personaly see the Great Tribulation. What is the problem?? It took 30secs for me to write this down!! Whose problem is this? The concept is remarkably simple. Who could possibly find it a problem??? Well, there was, of course, no sign for the "wicked and adulterous generation" (save the sign of Jonah). But that's not us is it? Matt 24:43: “But know one thing: If the householder had known in what watch the thief was coming, he would have kept awake and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 On this account, you too prove yourselves ready, because the Son of man is coming at an hour that you do not think to be it"

??????? Can't work this out?? Anyway, its a great illustration and useful as an introduction to the real reasons. Thanks @Queen Esther!

I'd say probably not, after looking in the car park at the last circuit assembly I attended.

Personal matter for wearing it although someone in the chain of manufacture might need to clarify a copyright issue on the logo.

Hello Dolly(s)................. Novel idea. S'pose you think this applies to Jesus as well?? Doesn't this statement contradict the definition of the word CLONE? There's nothing new about folks having difficulty with the Bilble's teaching on the resurrection. And nothing new about certain of those folks holding that teaching up to ridicule as a result. Jesus summed up their problem better than anyone could do today when he said: “You are mistaken, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." Matt.22:29

Knock knock knockin' on heaven's door........ It is aways interesting (for me) to look at the partakers graph against the average publishers graph as shown here. (They will be included in these figures). I mean, why shouldn't this number increase? I know we have put date limiters on it in the past, but surely we have become less rigid about this in more recent years? (@Melinda Mills could substantiate this with numerous WT references!) Anointed ones answer only to Jehovah as to the genuineness of their claim (1Cor 11:27-29). We are rejoicing at the increase, if we show the same spirit that the angels do when sinners repent: Luke 15:10: "I tell you, joy arises among the angels of God over one sinner who repents"

It is a legitimate question and for me the answer is unmistakably.....Yes! I am quite happy with the understanding that the lightning flash picture in Matt.24:27 illustrates the way in which the presence of the true Messiah would be perceived by the chosen ones. This contrasts the furtive, secretive nature of the presence of false Messiahs as pictured in the words at Matt.24:26. No need for "chosen ones" to follow adherents off to secret locations to see a false Messiah when the real one one's presence can be "seen" anywhere in the sense that lightning lights up a vast geographic area. That is the sense I get from Luke 17:24 as well, although this is not a parallel passage. (By the way, you are probably misquoting the references for this passage). As for Luke 17:22, this is in the context of Pharisaical expectations regarding coming of the the Kingdom which were not fulfilled in Jesus earthly presence at that time, although, as the Messiah, his presence and all attached meant that "the Kingdom of God is [was] in their midst" (Luke 17:20-21). Luke 17 22-24 has Jesus thus reassuring his disciples who, later, may well wish for his return, but will have to wait until God's appointed time. Counsel similar to that provided later at Matt. 24:23-28 follows which, although briefer, has similar meaning. I cannot understand why you dissect Matt.24:38-39 other than to support your idea quoted above: 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. It reads far more sensibly to me emphasised in bold as: 38 For as they were in those days before the Flood, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, 39 and they took no note until the Flood came and swept them all away, so the presence of the Son of man will be. The presence of the Son of Man is thus seen to be comparable to the days before the flood+ the day Noah entered into the ark + the rest of that 7 day period culminating in the day of the flood itself and this agrees with Luke 17:26-27 which speaks of the days of Noah. I don't believe there is any significance in the actual duration of the days of Noah other than to recognise they comprise a period of years culminating in an excecution of judgement and thus provide the basis for believing the PAROUSIA has similar characteristics. To be honest, I do not have the time to argue this point any longer. I was looking forward to this, but after starting on the post and proceeding as far as I have, I find the argument too disappointing to continue unravelling it's detail. Now the crux here appears to be the timing of this parousia and it's visibility "as the lightning". a) Did the parousia commence in 1914 and is it still continuing, to culminate in the judgement, or b) is it the judgement period itself, and as such, yet to come? I think it is safe to say @Eoin Joyce goes for a) and @JW Insider appears to go for b). It also appears you know enough of the reasons for why I plump for option a), so there is no reason for me to re-hash or re-state those here. I have said plenty so far in this thread alone. And on the basis of what I have so far considered regarding option b)? In the famous words of Peter Jones CBE, "I'm out!

Thanks for the information on this matter. I'm away for a while but will come back on this discussion soon.

Agree entirely with this statement.

Not assumed, only seen as a possibilty in view of what you said: #3 being which was part of a discussion on what to do if personal opinions conflict with official teachings, amongst JWs. Of course the possibility also exists that you may well have left another denomination of Christendom after doing the extensive research. Or maybe you were discussing the matter hypothetically and meant to use the word "choose"? No offence intended.

Here is the basic assumption upon which your lengthy dissertation appears to be based. (I say lengthy because you have expressed aspects of your view on this matter in a number of responses elsewhere on the forum). Before even considering the many facets to your proposition, there remains the fact that Jesus likened his parousia or presence to the days of Noah. Obviously, there is not an exact parallel, as Noah did actually know the time that Jehovah's action would take place, althought there was a rather short notice period given. see Gen.7:4. (Maybe someone would argue that he still did not know the hour.) However, "apostrophes" aside, Jesus words at Matt.24:37-39 would need to be reconciled with the idea that the parousia is an event taking place at the end of a marked time period or generation. As we are indulging in a bit of a paraphrase, I take Jesus words to be something like this: [vs 36] . . . concerning the actual time of Jerusalem's destruction (and by extension the destruction of a complete system of things in the future) I just can't tell you the day or hour because none of us, neither the angels nor myself, actually know it yet. Only the Father has the complete timetable for His executing of judgement. And you know, knowing that day and hour wouldn't really benefit you anyway. [v. 37] However, as you are my friends (John 15:15), I will tell you something that really will benefit you. I will give you a clue about my presence or PAROUSIA which will lead up to that time of judgement. It will be just like the days of Noah.[v. 38] Remember that in those days before the Flood, people were going about their daily lives eating, drinking, getting married [doing what they had been doing since the days of their forefathers, saying, in effect that there was peace and security] despite the fact that the earth at that time was filled with violence and immorality? Well, Jehovah got involved with Noah and told him what He was going to do. He told Noah to build an ark and also to preach to the people. This went on for years, right up until the very day that Noah entered into the ark. [v 39] Those people heard and saw him, but it meant nothing to them and it was as if they knew nothing until the Flood came by surprise and swept them all away. That's exactly how my PAROUSIA will be. I will get involved with people of faith like Noah, ensure they know what my Father's requirements for salvation are, and help them to preach the warning message everywhere and to gather in to safety any that respond. Then, once these tasks are completed, judgment will take people by surprise, too. [v.40, 41] That's why you are going to see men and women going about their business in this generation, too, and you will see one person taken by surprise and the person who was right next to them just as surprised to see the other person gone. Their judgement will not be based on outward appearances. [v. 42] So keep on the watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come to execute JUDGEMENT. [v.43] Although it will be as unpredictable as a thief in the night who breaks into your house, (and no thief is going to announce his arrival), here's an illustration to help you keep awake. Although the householder doesn't know the exact time a thief will break in, if he knows during which watch (3 hour period) it will occur, he will be doubly alert and not get robbed. [v. 44] So once I have alerted you during my PAROUSIA, prove yourself ready at all times, because the JUDGEMENT itself will arrive at a time that you just won't know in advance. So, I haven't seen anything yet to dissuade me that Jesus Parousia CULMINATES in an execution of judgement....so far that is.

Interesting question. I'm not sure about @HollyW, but the comment made regarding the choice of option #3 seem to indicate a former association with Jehovah's Witnesses. Anyway, Byan Wilson wrote a paper suggesting some secular reasons for this kind of activity. This makes for an interesting perspective, whether you agree with everything he suggests or not. http://www.scientologymyths.info/apostates/docs/bryan-wilson-apostate-study.pdf

I think this statement needs a little adjustment, (my italics and insertions in bold, no impertinence intended), to harmonise with the spirirt in which you appear to be raising this issue: "Again, I don't expect that these opinions, on their own, should convince anyone one way or another. I'm trying to present a case for why it is easier for me to understand Matthew 24 and everything about the parousia in a way that appears to me more consistent with all the Bible references in context, and why, for me, our current doctrine produces some difficulties and contradictions." I'd like to dive in on some of the points you raise in your last post, as I am sure others quickly and extensively will. However, I am intrigued to consider how you harmonise the illustration Matthew 24:37-39 with your view, so I hope that your intention remains, and that this particular "manifestation" of your "presence" will soon occur.

This sort of treatment of peace-loving individuals in South Korea is a shameful blot on a country which surely prides itself in it's human rights record, boasting a Nobel prize-winning president, Kim Dae-jung, in that very field. Nevertheless, from a Christian point of view, this injustice comes as no surprise, making the words of Jesus at Matt.5:11-12 all the more encouraging. Encouraging too, is the attitude displayed by the apostles as recorded in Acts 5:41 who found it a privilege to experience persecution in that it confirmed the faithfulness of their stand. It is appalling to contemplate the vindictive nature of the way in which this injustice reaches on into the lives of our courageous brothers in South Korea, even after they have served the mandatory sentence for their so-called "crimes", However, one aspect shines through. Spritually, those brothers must be made of sterling material for Satan to go to such lengths to try and break their intergrity. And, also, there must be many more to be found in that country for Satan to use such scare tactics in an attempt to discourage young men from serving the true God, Jehovah. Our prayers are with these brothers, and we are inspired by their firm stand.

Well, so far, I think not, despite @Ann O'Maly 's happy refrain. Nevertheless, I await your next post before I draw any conclusions.

Matt. 24:37-39 does not sit well with this suggestion.

Amazing how fashion dictates a person's thinking without them really being aware of the influence. The guys on the right look like they have been sleeping out in the rain a couple of days, or that they put on their little brother's suits (by mistake hopefully)! Presumabely, they would not see themselves that way?

Isn't this partly because they had the words of Jesus regarding the times and the seasons? How do you think Jesus words at Matt 24:44 are applied?

Is this actually a true statement in the light of Peter's words at 2Pet 3:12, or would it be more appropriately applied to those he describes at 2Pet.3:3-4?

Matt. 13:4

I can understand how someone completely ignorant of the content Gods's Word might draw this erroneous conclusion on the strength of comparing these lines from one of the 151 songs in the book, “Sing Out Joyfully” to Jehovah. However, for the benefit of those genuinely making this error, Proverbs 3:9 shows the thought to be completely in harmony with the encouragement provided in God's word to contribute materially to the advancement of true worship. It reads there, (in context), "Honor Jehovah with your valuable things, with the firstfruits of all your produce; Then your storehouses will be completely filled, And your vats will overflow with new wine."