Evacuated

Simple answer to the original question is : choice of a medical care provider is entirely a matter of personal decision and conscience.

Separation from Babylon the Great means separating from it's spiritual corruption and false religious teachings. The fact that religious organisations such as those  mentioned have sought to direct their efforts into social works rather than the preaching the good news of the kingdom is a matter for their accountability of their actions to God.

I can accept that a person may feel uneasy about participating in something that might be viewed as a propaganda exercise for false religion, perhaps included in the "powerful works" described at Matt 7:22. They might feel that paying for medical services would be an indirect way of supporting a false religious organisation. That person might feel better about medical care provided by a completely secular organisation. They are at liberty to choose and should not be criticized. However, would they then seek to vet the religious persuasion of individual medical practitioners before accepting care from them? That might be viewed by some as unreasonable.

For me, Jesus words at John 17:15-16 come to mind. We do have a role in this world ruled by the "wicked one" which is why we can be in it, but no part of it at the same time. We pay our taxes for social services rendered by governmental agencies despite the fact they are soon to be replaced by Jehovah's kingdom in the hands of Christ Jesus. This does not mean we support them or become a part of them by doing so. The current structure of things, which includes medical services provided by "religious" organisations permitted, and regulated, by current governmental agencies, for me constitutes a part of the "arrangement of God" (Rom.13:2) and serves as God's minister to me for my good. (Rom 13:4).

So, my conscience would not be offended by getting medical care from one of the listed agencies as long as they respected my position as one of Jehovah's Witnesses with regard to non-blood medical management and freedom of speech. Neither would I view  it as as hypocritical or contradictory if another one of Jehovah's Witnesses did so.

But then, that's me..................

On 2/27/2016 at 18:46, Ann O'Maly said:

If all true Christians in the 1st century were 'anointed,' what changed?

Where? When? What?

On 2/27/2016 at 18:46, Ann O'Maly said:

1. Rev. 7's numbers 12 x 12,000 are understood to be symbolic, but it is insisted that the total number 144,000 is literal. This is inconsistent.

There are other literal elements of this chapter: God; the Lamb (although this is a symbolic reference).

On 2/27/2016 at 18:46, Ann O'Maly said:

2. When Rev. 7 is read more closely, the 144k group are on earth; otherwise, why are the four angels told to hold back the destructive winds until the 144k are sealed? Cp. Rev. 9:4.

Agreed. They are "bought from the earth" Rev.14:3, so must have originated there.

On 2/27/2016 at 18:46, Ann O'Maly said:

3. When Rev. 7 is read more closely, the envisioned 'great crowd' is seen in the same heavenly location as the four living creatures, angels and 24 elders. On what contextual basis can we argue that the 'great crowd' is in a different location to the four living creatures, angels and 24 elders?

Not convinced they have to be in the same location as God. Being before God's throne does not require this literally. Standing before God or Christ can denote having their approval regardless of location (Comp Lu. 21:36; Ps.5:5,7).

Jehovah can stand by his servants without literally coming to the earth. Ps.109:31.

On 2/27/2016 at 18:46, Ann O'Maly said:

On what contextual basis can we argue that the 'great crowd' is in a different location to the four living creatures, angels and 24 elders?

At least on the basis that there are no tears in heaven at the time portrayed in this chapter. Rev 7:17.

I agree with you Melinda Mills. However the opposite view needed addressing I believe, as double negatives can easily be misread.

On 3/26/2016 at 02:30, Jay Witness said:

Could it be said that our "Memorial" is our "Easter"?

Categorically No.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not participate in the religious hybrid festival known today as Easter in English. At best, Easter, or Pascha, is a festival and holiday celebrating the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

This differs from The Memorial, or Lord's Evening Meal, which is a commemoration of the death of the Lord Jesus Christ. It is the only Scriptural event Christians are commanded to memorialize.

As for the plethora of urban myths surrounding the pagan origin of many Easter traditions, there is indeed a basis for @Ann O'Maly's comment:

On 3/28/2016 at 19:30, Ann O'Maly said:

(Not this old bunkum again.)

However, the basic notion of a connection between ancient paganism and Easter and it's customs is not so easily dismissed.

For example, the points made in the lengthy article on the KoSH website would need a thorough refutation to accomplish that.

 http://www.koshabq.org/2012/03/09/celebrating-eostre/

Probably for @Jay Witness to respond on this perceived anomaly.

However, April 1 1984 Watchtower discussed this question on pages 30-31:

▪ What is the difference between immortality and everlasting life?
Endless life will be enjoyed both by anointed ones receiving spirit life in heaven and by humans whom God declares righteous for life on the Paradise earth. So if you think about the outcome, immortality in heaven and everlasting life on earth result in basically the same thing—living forever. There are, though, some comments about immortality that can be made.
The Greek word translated “immortality” (athanasia) is formed from the negative a and from thanatos, meaning “death.” Immortality thus has the basic sense of ‘without death,’ or deathlessness. Understandably, Jehovah is the absolute source of all life and is immortal. (Psalm 36:9; 90:1, 2) This is confirmed by the fact that his glorified Son, who now “is the reflection of [God’s] glory and the exact representation of his very being,” is described as “the King of those [men] who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality.” (Hebrews 1:3; 1 Timothy 6:15, 16) No creature can take Jesus’ life as an immortal, which makes him different from humans or spirits that can die. Further, we read: “Now that [Christ] has been raised up from the dead, [he] dies no more; death is master over him no more.”—Romans 6:9.
Though immortality is, in a sense, everlasting life, immortality apparently implies more than that its possessor will live forever. It seems to indicate a particular quality of life, and it is linked with incorruption. The Bible says about spirit-anointed Christians who receive the heavenly reward: “This which is corruptible [in its human body] must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. But when this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up forever.’”—1 Corinthians 15:53, 54.
Still, the Bible does not provide much detail about the quality of life termed immortality. We do know that mortal humans—even perfect humans having the prospect of endless life on earth—must eat and drink to maintain life, or they die and their bodies experience corruption. (Genesis 2:9, 15, 16) No doubt immortality involves a quality of life that does not need to be sustained like that. Thus it could be said that all who become immortal are not subject to death or that ‘death is master over them no more.’ That would harmonize, too, with their receiving incorruptibility, indicating that their spirit body or organism is inherently beyond decay, ruin or corruption. (Compare 2 Corinthians 5:1; Revelation 20:6.) In these ways a difference might be seen between immortality and everlasting human life.
Jehovah God is the perfect Judge who rewards anointed ones with immortality. When he in his boundless wisdom and insight determines such ones to be completely tested and unquestionably qualified for immortality, we can trust that they will forever be faithful. All whom Jehovah judges worthy of endless life, whether as immortal spirits or as perfect humans, will be able to worship him forever. Thus, in the final analysis, both everlasting human life and immortality in heaven result in endless life.—John 17:3.
 

Yes, in answer to your question. And if their dedication and baptism was accepted, what would be the basis for dissuading them? As we recently discussed in the Watchtower, the only difference between anointed and others is their calling. So, apart from taking the emblems, their behaviour should be no different from any other dedicated 8 year old. And, as they would continue subject to their parents until adulthood, the congregation would support them as it would any other family.

And if that 8 year old should change their viewpoint later, what of it? As long as they wished to serve Jehovah faithfully, they would be supported by family and the congregation whatever their destiny.

I can't help but be reminded of the spirit of Gamaliel's words (Acts 5:39) in many of these discussions about who is and isn't anointed.

Enhancing the JW paparazzi aspect eh? Hmm.

Pretty subjective. And there might be a problem with eye-rafters. Pictures may speak a thousand words, but maybe not always those spoken by the persons in them.

Certainly it is highly recognisable. I do not know how big as a brand, you would have to do a pretty extensive survey to evidence that.

What I do know is that this service year, the logo was prominently placed on our Kindom Hall external wall. I spoke to several hundred people in the territory to invite to the memorial. Without exception, they all knew exactly where the Kingdom Hall was! Some even said something like 'you are in that building with the blue sign aren't you?' That didn't happen last year.

This logo effectively ties us, our communication channels, and our meeting places to one source in people's minds, with more visual impact than the old Watchtower symbol.

Giannis 

You sound frustrated, Maybe its the language that is insufficient.

Anyway, apologies if I misunderstand you due to that.

With regard to the latest points you raise.

Giannis: In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.

I find this statement too extreme. The Awake you quote is interesting, but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. 

Obviously, Israel was a sovereign state with a judiciary, as is the USA. So there are legitimate comparisons in their legal systems, the right to public trial being one of them. However that provision does not substantiate your statement. In fact, even today there are situations when the public is excluded from legal procedures.

But, as Paul made clear in Rom 13, currently "Caesar" or the state "bears the sword" and serves as Gods's minister for good or bad toward his servants. We are all relatively subject to Caesar's laws and, as far as secular matters are concerned, generally, public trial is still a provision of that system should we fall foul of the law or indeed be a victim of crime.

So you do have the right to a public trial today..in "Cesar's" courts.

However, the Christian congregation is a spiritual arrangement and actually is not constituted as a sovereign state in the way of ancient Israel or the modern USA.

Elders have a responsibility to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean, and also to keep Jehovah's name and the name of His Son clear of reproach. This will necessarily mean dealing with wrongdoers, making assessments regarding wrong conduct, taking action to clear out badness from the congregation, and helping repentant ones regain spiritual health. At times, this may include mediation between congregation members to maintain peace in the congregation. @JW Insider has adequately outlined reasons for confidentiality in an earlier post in this thread. 

Where the breaking of Cesar's law is a component of errant behaviour amongst congregation members, then victims are completely at liberty to invoke the provisions of that system (bearing in mind Paul's counsel at 1 Cor. 6:6-8). Indeed, there may well be a legal obligation to refer such matters to the one "that bears the sword".

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

you all pretend you haven't saw.
" In the Greek Watchtower of 1970 page 766 we read about a homosexual brother who disfellowshipped for 3 years in advance".

Is this the account you refer to?

To take a true-life illustration of recent months: A certain youth professed to be a Christian minister. Yet he was carrying on homosexual acts with professed friends of his. When he found it expedient to travel to another part of the country he missed his homosexual friends. So he wrote one of them threatening to expose him if he did not come to where he lived so that they could continue their homosexual relations. But it was not long before this young professed Christian made some overt acts that exposed him and today he is under a ban of at least three years from any Christian congregation of Jehovah’s people.
 

This article discussed the hardening power of a practice of sin and the account illustrates the lengths a person could go to and the consequence when following such a course. I can't see any reason why further explanation would be required here, other than saying that the reference is 46 years old. Hopefully, that person learned, albeit the hard way (1Cor.5:5, 13), and has since been restored to the congregation. 1 Cor 6:9-10.

15 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

why I don't have the same right?

I think @JW Insider has indicated above how you could go about making your grievances public. You seem to have already embarked on this course anyway.

I do hope you can resolve your issues without cutting yourself off.

It's certainly right to protect children from exploitation. And direct targeting of children, independent of their carers, by any organisation, (although prevalent), I find distasteful. Obviously, it is illegal in some contexts.

However, I would have thought most parents, carers etc., like to help children to be unselfish and caring and aware of ways to help toward charitable causes. So I do not object to making children aware of these things in principle.

And it seems children are very willing help if they are made aware of the need, with the BBC in 2013 reporting on a new survey which suggested that primary school children give up to £20 million each year to charity! This worked out as each child giving around £2 of their pocket money to charities every month. http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/21771068

Children donating funds to, participating in, and even organizing charitable activities appears to generally meet with approval as many news items indicate.

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/13410154.Children_donate_pocket_money_to_buy_gifts_for_refugee_and_asylum_families/

http://www.theguardian.com/voluntary-sector-network/2015/jun/19/philanthroteens-young-people-who-use-their-pocket-money-to-change-the-world

http://www.kidspot.com.au/Family-Budget-Kids-and-money-Kids-donating-to-charity+1787+157+article.htm

I do not approve of what I have experienced in the past with the more directly child-targeted endeavors of some organisations raising money for adopting animals, environmental causes, and the like. Some of my children experienced their direct methods through children's magazines, animal parks, or even well meaning school teacher initiatives, in years past. (Creating situations a bit like those caused by child-level sweet counters at supermarket checkouts!). I did not object to their causes, but to their methods.

However, I have found that the various encouragements for children to contribute towards the activities of Jehovah's Witnesses are generally presented in the context of family-based activities with parental/carer involvement.

Therefore, I do not see anything sinister in parents, carers, responsible adults making children aware of, or involving them in supporting Jehovah's Witness activities. I see it as a duty and part of a Christian up-bringing. The videos, experiences, printable excercises etc. on jw.org I just see as a means to that end.

Of course, if one objected to the aims and objectives or tenets of the organisation, then any attempts it made to get support, financial or otherwise, would be objectionable.

Thanks for this very useful background info and news links.

I am impressed by the tenacity shown by those Witnesses you list here.

If you mean the 2016 Convention, Remain Loyal to Jehovah, the Program can be downloaded as a .pdf file from jw.org here:

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/books/2016-Convention-Program/

If you download the interactive version, then you can print out as a notebook for the assembly. Select the Booklet option from the print dialogue in Adobe reader, then staple together.

What Does the Bible Really Teach  commented on Rev. 20:4: 

"After Armageddon, Satan and his demons will be imprisoned in an abyss for a thousand years. During that time, the 144,000 heavenly joint heirs will be judges and will rule “as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.” " p214 para 1.

That places the 1000 year, Satan-free period still in the future.

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

1.The Elders in my area are old and uneducated. (but I feel they don't like disagreements anyway)

All the more reason to apply the scriptures I suggested.

3 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

2. I found disturbing cases on the Internet and I feel same rules will be applied to me too (if you question you will be disfellowshipped for apostasy).

You cannot find the true picture from anecdotal evidence.

4 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

3.I feel that I don't have rights. of course Ι will never go to the room alone only with elders. I see in the scriptures that it is my Christian right to ask for a public trial. please note that I don't ask the same for other cases - only for my case (maybe child molesters want secrecy so they can make it again in other congregations).

The Awake article is interesting but only as a comparison between Mosaic and American legal standards. I am not sure it supports the idea that  " In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone."  (my italics). I would need more specific examples for that conclusion. The statements in the article are not supported by examples.

What scriptures give you the Christian right to a "public trial"? And, if permissible, may I ask, what have you done to require such a trial?

2 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

I don't understand why the Admins send your question here in the Parking Lot for Controversial Posts

I put it there myself Giannis to avoid it being separated from the various other questions on this theme.

I suspect it may attract some "controversial" responses, although nothing is guaranteed on the World News Forum!

If someone was disfellowshipped in the past for something now viewed as a matter of conscience, what is their current status; and what procedure should be followed if they wish to re-associate?

This is getting contentious unnecessarily. I also feel that historical anecdotes are of limited use due to scarcity of background, circumstance and context. 

I am going to post a question to deal specifically with one of the important issues that comes out of this.

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

In ancient Israel the congregation of Israel knew everything about everyone.
In the Christian congregation the same.

It is not possible to support these statements with fact.

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

Jehovah's witnesses are Christians or not?
Jehovah's witnesses follow the scriptures or not?

Yes to both. However, with regard to following scripture, in the spirit of Apollos. Acts 18:24-28.

On 3/17/2016 at 18:38, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

where is the scriptural proof of hiding the reason of disfellowshipping or dissociation?

Where is the scriptural proof of a requirement to indiscriminately publicize the reason for disfellowshipping or dissasociation?

10 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

the elders don't like my questions.

Have your elders used 2Tim.2:23 or Titus 3:9 to support their dislike for your questions? Have they attempted to provide answers to them?. I suspect even if they have, you have not been satisfied, as your many posts in this forum seem to indicate.

Why not apply the principle in Ps.4:4? It's all about attitude really. (Compare Ph. 3:15, the principle, not the immediate subject matter).

I recommend the advice provided by JW Insider quoted below:

On 3/17/2016 at 16:48, JW Insider said:

At any rate, what is the rush to disassociate? Can you not find love in the brotherhood? Do you personally have to think of humans as your "mediators"? I believe there is room for a lot more diversity of thought, as long as you can keep a clean conscience, and avoid causing divisions by insisting on a view that others find unacceptable. Over time, many of the views that opposers have held, have finally been accepted. We are not here strictly for a set of doctrines, we are here to find opportunities to love and care for our friends, relatives, family, and extend that same love to those related to us in the faith (our spiritual brothers and sisters).

I would also add that the work of preaching the good news of Jehovah's established kingdom in the hands of His anointed king, Christ Jesus, should be the main focus of our efforts at this time. I would add that to the list of activities in JW Insider's comment above.

For many honest-hearted ones, getting to know Jehovah and his son Jesus, learning about the ransom, the kingdom, the truth about life, death, sin, getting free from the deceptive domination of Satan in their lives, and coming into association with the worldwide congregation of Jehovah's people, is the best thing thing that could ever happen to them. And, if media reports are anything to go by, it appears that there are greater opportunities in your country to share the good news of the kingdom than many others of us have at this time.

I do hope you can resolve your difficulties, if not your questions.

Do you have this saying?

Ας μην καίμε τα χλωρά μαζί με τα ξερά. 

Why not ask one of the elders in your congregation. It is an easy task to make the meeting videos available to those who cannot attend.

I have difficulty following the logic in John Houston's answer, probably he has previous answers sorted by rating rather than date.

I would recommend the answer given by Melinda Mills.

Please get some reliable medical advice if available, and especially if you haven't done so since 2011. Luke 5:31.

I'm going to give the simple answer.

Yes, of course they are.

A better question might be "What issues do Jehovah's Witnesses conscientiously refrain from voting on?"

On 3/13/2016 at 13:32, gfnslave said:

So, I am reading in Matthew about how many generations there we're from the deportation from Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations. The way I do math 607 divided by 14 equals 43.3 years. This is how Scripture measures a generation.The way I see it since 1914 we have had 2 complete generations and are now working on a 3rd. According to Jesus shouldn't the end have come by now?

 

What would be the length of a generation as mentioned in Gen 15:16?

On 2/26/2016 at 10:15, Eoin Joyce said:

Good post AnonymousBrother.

I'm just unsure about your meaning here: " As God did not reveal His Name until *after* the Babel episode "

 

Because of Genesis 4:2 etc.

Giannis. Thank you for being honest about your situation.

On 3/11/2016 at 19:42, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

As for that you never said anything negative about the Watchtower in all of your answers .... I was asking you... It was a question... I had a question mark too....Anyway, you try to get away like if you had anything to hide.. so I am asking you again .... why always when the Watchtower makes mistakes you try to defend a group of people in Brooklyn (or wherever) and not Jesus?

This is just a contentious assertion. Don't you know that if you attack personally someone whose view you do not share, you are undermining your own position?

Why should I say negative things about the Watchtower per se?  Ps.130:3

When criticisms about the Watchtower are voiced in this forum, those who voice them are sharing their interpretation or feelings based on observations and/or personal experience, and sometimes their reaction, which may even include some sort of separation from Jehovah's Witnesses.

On occasion, I share my personal reaction to those same criticisms. I do not react so drastically as some appear to (I believe to their detriment spiritually) and I hope my view will provide a strengthening to others, (not all, of course).

Sometimes responders are very enlightening as to background and information on issues, (JW Insider; Ann O'Mally come to mind) and I will modify my views if I think I need to.

However, as of yet, I have not come across anything either here or anywhere else to make me react in this manner:

1 hour ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

I do not attend to my congregation anymore

My only reaction to this is in Jesus words: Luke 22:43.

Amendment was posted to that quote:

On 3/7/2016 at 12:31, Eoin Joyce said:

Seems the practice (apparently formalised since the 4th Century) of adding an extra month, Adar1, every so often to realign the Jewish lunar calendar with the solar calendar puts the modern Jewish calendar out of sync with our Memorial date, particularly in 2016.

 

 

Adjustment in italics. Thanks Ann O'Maly