JW Insider

I'm breaking up my last post into two posts after all, so that the E.R.A. machine information and suggestions about telepathy etc, do not get too mixed up with the rest of the discussion. I've also added a longer quote from Russell at the end where he speaks to the rise in spiritism and psychic phenomena.

On page 79, 80 of his book on spiritism, Greber apparently touches upon the phenomenon that lies behind the E.R.A. machines that the Society once promoted:

• Od flows through all parts of terrestrial bodies and radiates beyond them to a certain distance. This radiation which surrounds terrestrial bodies has been called 'aura' by your scientists. Everything in creation has such an odic aura.... The odic aura surrounds the material body like a halo.... This force manifests itself by vibrations of the od.... All thought and volition are expressed in the corresponding odic vibrations, set in motion by the spirit, as the bearer of the od.... A sage of ancient times observed: 'Everything is in a state of flux'. He should have said: 'Everything is in a state of vibration'.... You will see at once that the harmony in odic vibrations stands for beauty, health, happiness, peace and good fortune, whereas discord in such vibrations must be the cause of ugliness, sickness, suffering and unhappiness. (Page 79,80)

I didn't want to get back into the "Goodrich, Abrams, Woodworth, Hudgings, Rutherford" discussion of a previous thread, but the connection seems obvious. Dr. Abrams made it obvious by turning the discussion about the power of these Radio Vibration healing machines (and RDK: Radio Disease Killer machine) into one about mental telepathy that could work much farther away from the person being healed. Also, in spite of Woodworth's denials that this type of healing had anything to do with spiritism, it seems he inadvertently admitted that he knew just how close to the edge he was playing when he tried to negate some of the theories that Upton Sinclair had made in a book called "Mental Radio":

• Sinclair Mixing Up in Demonism  UPTON SINCLAIR has written a book, Mental Radio, narrating the experiments of himself and his wife in telepathy. He says, in one place, "The subconscience answers questions, and its answers are always false.... the deep mind, answers questions too, and these answers come, not quietly, but as if by inspiration...." We merely add that the demons are teasing Mr. Sinclair. (Golden Age, January 20, 1932, p. 249.)

In 1925 The Golden Age even published an article, quoting Brother (Dr.) Pottle showing how these ERA machines might explain palmistry, phrenology, physiognamy, chiromancy, etc:

• It also explains why the character of men can be described in terms of facial features, known as Physiognomy, or cranial characteristics with the scientific term of Phrenology, or even by the fingernails or by the palm, or by the spine, or by the feet. There are books published on each of these arts separately; and if we were only sufficiently intelligent we undoubtedly could determine what a person thinks or does chiefly, his qualifications, etc., merely from a piece of his skin, a hair, or a drop of blood. Abrams scientifically demonstrated this fact in many details, although experiments are as yet in their infancy. The body throughout tells our story of life; the vibrations show what we are, and do not lie. (Golden Age, February 25, 1925, p. 333.)

I read somewhere else that the Golden Age claimed that it rarely ever reviewed a book unless they thought it was very important. And Upton Sinclair and Angels and Women were two that got formal reviews.

Russell seemed to believe that mental telephathy was possible too, based on this quote from the Golden Age, February 25, 1925:

• ...thought is conducted by an electronic vibratory method. Dr. Abrams was the first to demonstrate that theory through a mechanical instrument. It also explains the hitherto mysteries of so-called mental telepathy, mind reading, and woman's intuition, of which Pastor Russell spoke upon several occasions. (p. 332)
• As to just how the prayers of one may benefit another we may not know. We have not sufficient information to philosophize on it very deeply. We might surmise certain mental influences proceeding from one to another, just as we know electrical influences to proceed from one station to another thousands of miles away. The powers of the mind are something not comprehended. We can influence ourselves, and, to a certain extent, influence another. One mind can influence another without a word, by some telepathic power. (Russell, source not found, sermon?)
• God created Father Adam the king of earth. Had he remained loyal to his God, he would have retained not only his life and health and happiness, but also his kingly authority over the beasts, the fish and the fowl--ruling them with telepathic powers. (Russell, Watch Tower, February 1915, p. 5636)

I add the following from the August 1909 Watch Tower p.227 (4441) just to show the same point made in this thread that spiritism was gaining ground even among scientists and professors and persons of high station. I only kept the heading "Spritism Conquering Scientists" because it was apparently intended to be a bit provocative, but there were several other headings between other paragraphs that I left out, so it isn't that the entire article was focused on this one heading.  Russell mentions Eddyism (Christian Science) and the Emmanuel movement about the use of "suggestion" as a help to patients. (Elsewhere Russell identified hypnotism with spiritism.)

• SPIRITISM CONQUERING SCIENTISTS

  . . . The Bible alone gives us the key to Spiritism's power, showing that it is by the fallen angels, demons, who personate the dead so as to deceive mankind and to favor various falsities and superstitions built upon the error that the dead are alive. The Bible also foretells that at this time the wise men of the world will be deceived. Note the evidence of this in the following item which is going the rounds of the press:--

  "Mme. Blavatsky was exposed in India by a strenuous Australian investigator, Richard Hodgson, who afterward settled down in Boston, where he became head of the old American branch of the British Society for Psychical Research, and where also he met Professor James, who took him to see Mrs. Piper. Dr. Hodgson studied this woman for eighteen years and she convinced him that telepathy, automatic writing and communication with the dead were bona fide phenomena. To give her a special test, Dr. Hodgson arranged a unique course of experiments, in which he was aided by Dr. James H. Hyslop, professor of logic and ethics at Columbia. . . . "The professor masked himself and disguised his voice during his visits to her, and while she lay unconscious, with her head upon a pillow resting on a table, her hand wrote out messages alleged to come from his father. She converted Hyslop to the spiritistic hypothesis, and his announcement of the fact made a stir in the scientific world. He and Hodgson formed a compact that whoever died first would communicate with the other, and Professor Hyslop expressed some time ago his satisfaction that he has received messages from Hodgson since the latter's death.

  "Across the deep no less a proportion of thinking men have turned their thoughts in the same direction. Caesare Lombroso, the great Italian criminologist and anthropologist, after having studied the medium, Eusapia Paladino, has announced his belief in disembodied spirits, although he does not indorse the theory of the return of the dead. Professor Charles Richet, of the Faculty of Medicine, Paris, is a French leader in psychical research work and claims to have photographed the spirit of a Spanish soldier, while Camille Flammarion, the French astronomer, is now an aggressive convert to Spiritism. He says that he has proved that such phenomena as the movement of chairs without contact and the suspension of heavy tables in space are bona fide.

  "No less than an ex-prime minister has recently been a leader of the ghost hunters of England, where he recently served as president of the Society of Psychical Research. He insists that science cannot explain the psychic wonders which he has witnessed. While he headed the society it made a special investigation of 350 cases of aparitions of the dying in England and Wales, and of these fifty-two cases were accepted as beyond the laws of chance or the possibility of fraud.

  "William T. Stead has become a medium, so he now says--a writing medium, not one of the tambourine and trumpet band. At first the noted editor accepted telepathy and claimed to have written down the thoughts of living men many miles away. Then, of late years, he alleges, he has gotten into close communion with the dead. But it is only this year that he claims to have developed automatic writing, his right arm becoming impassive while its fingers guide a pen over paper on which appear letters from his son, the brilliant young writer, William, who died a year ago last Christmas eve. Mr. Stead claims that this writing appears without his exercising any will power to either hold the pen or move it.

  "If the English-speaking public was surprised to hear that Mr. Stead had strayed thus far into the spiritualist camp, it was startled to learn a few months ago that Sir Oliver Lodge, head of the University of Birmingham, had announced his belief in such communication with those beyond the grave. In a recent journal of the Society for Psychical Research he has given details of messages which he claims to have received from dead members of the society through the pen of a writing medium."

  "The spread of Eddyism and the Emmanuel movement merely emphasises the fact that we have another potent weapon at our command," said Dr. William H. Dieffenbach, of New York, in his annual presidential address to the National Society of Physical Therapeutics, affiliated with the American Institute of Homeopathy, which was recently in session in Detroit.

  "The use of suggestion to patients," continued the doctor, "should be studied and taught as should every other agent promising relief in the cure of the sick."

10 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Atlantean-Society met here in the 1880s under the direction of Edwin Murrow.

This stuff is all very new to me. Until tonight I have never read about any spiritists, and the only one I'm learning anything about is Johannes Greber at the moment. If possible, I also plan to learn a bit about what Mary Baker Eddy (Christian Science) may have claimed that made Woodworth draw a comparison between himself and her. Russell and Woodworth seemed to imply that there were some similarities among the claims of "spiritists" so I suppose that any of these groups is a place to start. In the meantime, please tell whatever you think is relevant about this Atlantean Society. 

The following "foundation" material should be long enough that no one who doesn't really want to read it will want to read it.   Also, I normally would try to spend enough time to absorb a few hundred pages of material about the subject before I share anything, but I am getting a lot of the following from some sites I downloaded years ago, and I have not really checked out the material for myself yet. Page numbers for the references may even be off, because I do not own Greber's book and have no access to it. I only have direct access to the Watchtower's side of this story.

Johannes Greber wrote a book called "Communication with the Spirit World" in 1932, in which he claimed that it was a Christian's duty to communicate with the good spirits and be able to distinguish the bad ones.

• If, therefore, we, as faithful servants of God, or at any rate, as honest seekers after the truth, try to get into touch with the world of good spirits we are committing no sin, but rather, obeying one of God's commandments; an important commandment, for only through contact with the world of good spirits can we arrive at the truth. There is no other way. . . .  From these fetters of error mankind can be freed only, if God will send his spirits as heralds of the truth. (Page 6, 7)

At the same time, even throughout this same year, Rutherford claimed that because the "Holy Spirit" had ceased in 1918 that God was sending his angels as ministers and heralds of the truth for those in the Temple class.

Curiously, we just saw where Russell had spoken about the beliefs of spiritists as to whether the spirit was able to materialize only in the dark or also in the light. Russell said, this in 1911 which Woodworth re-quoted in the Finished Mystery in 1917 along with the idea about repentant fallen angels from Noah's day:

• The "chains of darkness" we believe to be a figurative statement signifying that they were no longer permitted to materialize in the light and, generally, not able to materialize at all. (September 1911 Watch Tower)

Greber had a lot to say on this very point, also discussing about 6 levels of spiritistic activity (often through mediums) that could include speech, speech through an inspirational medium, automatic writing, seance table tapping and materializing in the dark. Some, they say, could use material or materialized objects.

• "It is therefore childish and a sign of your profound ignorance in such matters, to ridicule the fact that many spiritistic phenomena can be produced successfully only in the dark. Some of your scientists even assert that darkness is insisted upon only because it facilitates the concealment of 'spiritistic humbug'." (Page 91)

On page 79, 80 of the book Greber discusses the phenomenon that lies behind the E.R.A. machines that the Society once promoted:

• [This section of quotes has been moved to a later post; see below.]

Greber also claimed that the way to keep from talking to a bad spirit was to have them take the vow. An oath, he called it, in the name of God that they were not lying.

• "You know that I am telling you the truth in this, as I have done in all else. You have had plenty of proof of the fact that I am a truthful spirit. For this you have my oath, taken in the name of the Almighty, the true God." (p. 263)

Speaking of oaths related to spiritism, "The Vow" that Russell pushed as a kind of loyalty oath was something that the Bethel family repeated every day as part of their morning worship, similar to a daily pledge of allegiance. This was the very item (The Vow) over which Woodworth says he came under the control of the demons, and about which the demons offered him true Biblical and spiritual knowledge. (Because, sometimes the demons tell the truth, he said.) It's what kept Woodworth from accepting that Russell was the Faithful and Discreet Slave, until Russell proved that he really was by pointing out a flaw in Woodworth's reasoning. Here is a portion from the 1975 Yearbook:

*** yb75 pp. 51-52 Part 1—United States of America ***

• At Bethel was located C. T. RussellÂ’s study. Downstairs was the dining room, with a long table that would accommodate forty-four persons. The family would assemble here to sing a hymn, read the “Vow” and join in prayer before breakfast. . . .Would you like to hear the vow that was daily impressed on their minds? Entitled “My Solemn Vow to God,” it goes like this:
• “Our Father which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. May thy rule come into my heart more and more, and thy will be done in my mortal body. Relying on the assistance of thy promised grace to help in every time of need, through Jesus Christ our Lord, I register this Vow.. . . “I Vow to thee that I will be on the alert to resist everything akin to Spiritism and Occultism, and that, remembering that there are but the two masters, I shall resist these snares in all reasonable ways, as being of the Adversary. . . .Recitation of this vow was later discontinued among GodÂ’s people at Bethel and elsewhere.

Another curious parallel between the Watchtower publications and Greber was that the medium Greber communicated with believed that the fallen angels could repent and be saved. On page 297 of Greber's book, he says that even Lucifer would ultimately be saved. The point is also repeated that Lucifer and Christ Jesus were brothers, Christ being made first, then Lucifer second. (Page 267-268). Rutherford also repeated this same point in his own books that Jesus and Lucifer were brothers.

On 9/24/2017 at 4:57 PM, Anna said:

I have actually done that several times now as I started only with "Seola aka Angels and Women", but there is only so much one can say about a book, and so when I introduced some of the background on spiritism I added mummies...and then the "plethora" in hopes this would cover a broader scope.

I don't mind bringing it back to its A&W roots here. Angels and Women (A&W) was already discussed around these parts once, and I think you had apparently done some good research on it, if I remember right. I don't think it does much good to guess what was going on in the minds of Russell, Woodworth and Rutherford, but Allen pointed to the particular Golden Age magazine that provides an explanation for a start.

On 9/22/2017 at 4:17 PM, AllenSmith said:

The Golden Age December 3, 1924, Page 150 gives a logical explanation.

I think we can start there or even go back a little farther. (To the first announcement in The Golden Age, July 30, 1924, p. 702.) I have numbered some sentences and paragraphs of that article so I can reference them.

1. Review of Book    "ANGELS AND WOMEN" is the title of a book just off the press. It is a reproduction and revision of the novel, "Seola" which was written in 1878, and which deals with conditions prior to the flood.
2. Pastor Russell read this book with keen interest, and requested some of his friends to read it because of its striking harmony with the Scriptural account of the sons of God described in the sixth chapter of Genesis. Those sons of God became evil, and debauched the human family prior to, and up to, the time of the great deluge.
3. We call attention to this book because we believe it will be of interest to Bible Students, who are familiar with the machinations of the devil and the demons and the influence exercised by them prior to the flood and also now in this evil day. The book throws light on the subject and is believed, will aid those who carefully consider it to avoid the baneful effects of spiritism, now so prevalent in the world.
4. The book is revised and published by a personal friend of Pastor Russell, and one who was close to him in his work. It is published by the A. B. Abac Company, New York city.
5. The publishers advise that the regular price of the book is $2.00; but to all subscribers to The Golden Age, it will furnished at $1.00 per volume, when ordered in lots of ten or more. This is not an advertisement, but a voluntary comment.

Remember that this is from the first announcement in July. It wasn't until December 1924 that they started explaining what they thought was most important about the book. The original book was written in 1878, which brings up an interesting question (speculative) about whether Russell read it prior to a point he made in the very first Watchtower in July 1879 when he said that truth is truth even if it comes from Satan. This was a phrase that both Rutherford and Woodworth re-quoted from Russell on occasion.

But Russell said more on the subject. I don't want to skip too much from context so I will only deal with this first point from the numbered paragraphs above in this post:

In a 1911 Watch Tower, with the same idea repeated again in 1914, Russell claimed that some of the "fallen angels" were probably already being judged in fulfillment of Paul's words saying "Do you not know that we will judge angels?" Russell thought these would be the same angels held in Tartarus in bonds of dense darkness. But now released with a higher degree of freedom. Depending on how they handled this freedom, some would no doubt be repentant and gain forgiveness. The following is from the September 1911 Watch Tower in the article: "The Judgment of the Angels." Keep in mind that the theory behind the promotion of the book "Angels and Women" was that it was dictated in 1878 by one of the fallen angels who had repented and desired to do God's will. Since about this time, the anointed might even have currently (since 1878 at least) held some kind of power over them and might be involved in judging them.

-------------------------rest of this post is a long quotation from the 1911 Watchtower--------------------------

THEIR JUDGMENT PROBABLY NOW

We have answered in previous issues of THE WATCH TOWER that this trial will be, we believe, at the very beginning of this Great Day. And why at the beginning? For the reason that there is only one way, so far as we can see, in which these fallen angels can have a trial, their trial consisting in having a fuller opportunity to sin, if they so desire, or an opportunity to show, if they wish, that they are sick of sin and desire to return to harmony with God. . . .

THEY ARE CONFINED TO EARTH'S ATMOSPHERE

The Apostles Peter and Jude tell us that after their wrong course these angels were separated from association with the heavenly and holy angels, who were in harmony with God, and were cast down to tartarus, to our earth's atmosphere, "to be reserved in chains of darkness until the Judgment of the Great Day." What does that expression mean? The "chains of darkness" we believe to be a figurative statement signifying that they were no longer permitted to materialize in the light and, generally, not able to materialize at all. But of late spiritists claim, and we believe truthfully, that these spirits can now materialize in as real and tangible flesh as any human being possesses. As they state, and as the facts prove, this can be done only under certain circumstances; they still have a great deal of difficulty in materializing in the light. The "chains of darkness" still seem to be on them to some extent.

Spiritists further claim, however, that the spirits are breaking these bonds and that gradually they will be able to do fully in the light everything that they can now do in the dark, and even more than this. The Bible corroborates what the spiritists claim, only that the spiritists teach that these things are done by the dead; who, the spirits tell, are more alive after death than before. Spiritists assert that it is the spirits of dead human beings that materialize. But the Bible takes the opposite position and says that these spirits are the fallen angels, and that so far as humanity are concerned, the dead are totally dead and must remain so until the resurrection.

So, then, the Bible and the Spiritists are in decided conflict; and yet there is this harmony that we speak of, namely, that at the time of the Judgment of the Great Day we may expect the bonds restraining these spirits to be loosened. Of course God could hold them in restraint; but He will now permit these fallen angels to have a great lease of liberty. Then will come to them a great trial and testing, or judgment, in respect to their willingness or unwillingness to do according to the Divine will.

SOME OF THEM PROBABLY REPENTANT

It would not surprise us if some of the fallen angels who sinned in the past have repented and have had long centuries of experience with the unrepentant ones; and that these have suffered persecutions from those of evil mind. And so there may thus be two classes among the fallen angels; the one class desirous of doing the will of God and the other class, like Satan himself, wilfully opposed to the will of God. The trial time will prove each of these angels and manifest to which class each belongs.

We think, too, that we see in the Scriptures a passage which we had not seen with the same force before --a Scripture that seems to give a thought along this very line. It seems to imply that at a very near date probably these fallen angels will have wonderful power, such as they have never had since the days of the flood, and that this wonderful power will be used in a very malevolent manner, to stir up mankind to evil doing; and that this will be the key, the secret connected with the awful time of trouble which the Bible tells us will mark the conclusion of this Age and which will constitute the forerunner or beginning of the New Dispensation.

. . .

The Bible says that Satan is the Prince of the Power of the Air, that he is the Prince of Demons. (Eph. 2:2; Matt. 9:34.) Therefore we understand that in this symbolical sense "the powers of the air" are the demons; that these powers of the air that are being held until the saints of God shall have been sealed in their foreheads, are these fallen angels. As soon as the power that is now controlling them shall be removed, we shall have a reign of evil all over the earth. The evil spirits will do all the evil that is in their power, and this will constitute the trial of all the fallen angels--the lifting of the restraints to see whether they will go contrary to the Divine will. All who thus manifest their alliance with evil in any way will become subjects of the Second Death; while others who show their loyalty to God will mark themselves as worthy, presumably, of everlasting life.

It may be something in connection with the saints that will constitute the test of these angels. However, we need not wait many years until we shall know.

Just now, Anna said:

I went ahead and edited it out.

And I'm now editing out my reference to it. It's now a mystery!

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

You might misunderstand that my suggestion encompassed all who were referred to by Anna and TTH. Their comments encompassed humans in general as did mine.

Yes, you are right. I was focused on what we can know about them based on the experiences we hear reported from all over the world, and how much of this appears tied to what we can know from Biblical examples. Also, I hadn't yet reached the post where you had yourself quoted the same scripture in 2 Cor 2:11 and made the correct point very clearly.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Further, human intelligence is no protection against Satanic machinations.

There, we must agree to agree.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

11 hours ago, JW Insider said:

There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums.

Nothing explicit I would agree, but I think there are sufficient examples to sensitize a Christian conscience of the need to keep clear of certain items.

True, I would not own a Ouija board, but if I were a brother who drove a truck for the Postal Services, Fed Ex, "Toys R Us" stores or "Amazon" I wouldn't care less whether someone had just sold either a brand new or a seance-used Ouija board and I was delivering it. I had a book called "Witchcraft in Europe, 400-1700: A Documentary History" on a shelf in my office library (at home) and a sister (who must have gotten "lost" after a circuitous trip to an upstairs bathroom) saw it and chided me for it. I removed it from the shelf, but I still own it and might even get around to reading it someday.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

And even the most liberal stretch could not deny that the Devil is able to deceive humans into believing that objects might have supernatural efficacy, even if those actual items did not.

That's a given. But do we want to be a part of helping the Devil get the word out that he can possess objects if he cannot? That may have been what we were doing when we warned people that things they buy from Goodwill and garage sales might be possessed.

8 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Have you ever experienced demon activity yourself first hand,  other than through the obvious workings of this system of things? I think as you were raised in a theocratic environment, probably not. Those who have would most likely share a view different from the rationalisations expressed in some of these postings on the subject.

No, I haven't. But where rationalizations are rational, or based on the Bible, we can surely discuss whether or not we are truly letting our reasonableness be known to all. I went to school in a rural area of Missouri for several years where several houses in our area were "haunted" according to schoolmates and even some of the Witnesses. When the rural school was closed after I attended from 1964-1970, I moved into the city school. I learned that the people in the city school who lived on the properties next to those old abandoned houses never believed the stories, and had been through those houses themselves, and that it mostly used by boys taking their young girlfriends who would be the ones to be scared. So I admit that my feelings about haunted houses are skewed away from the typical beliefs that several others in the congregation had. We had a brother who came up from Florida who loved telling ghost stories. He seemed to have so many that I didn't trust him to be telling the truth all the time. So I would agree again that I probably rationalized away a lot of what he claimed, and believed it to be false. But, like Anna, I would happily hear about experiences to help me get a fuller picture.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

Its in the booklet as you read it you will find it. Pictures speak a thousand words too. 

No. I've finished all the relevant parts. I thought that the population portions would be the most disturbing, but at the most general level, they are hardly different than anything the Watchtower or Awake would say on the subject.

• There is a need to develop strategies to mitigate both the adverse impact on the environment of human activities and the adverse impact of environmental change on human populations. The world's population is expected to exceed 8 billion by the year 2020. Sixty per cent of the world' s population already live in coastal areas, while 65 per cent of cities with populations above 2.5 million are located along the world coasts; several of them are already at or below the present sea level. (page 32)

As is typical of humans and human governments, they know where the problems are and even know what to do about it, but capitalism (always a form of greed, so far) gets in the way. We look back on this document and can see how amazingly thoughtful it was, and yet no one appears to have acted on it very much. Even the United States suffered this year in Katrina and Harvey and Irma more than necessary by ignoring good counsel.

As far as the danger to farms and rural areas, the document admits that populations in cities are easier to service, and that better planning and design of urban areas could make many cities much more efficient. But I see no danger to the rural areas and farms pointed out in the document:

• As a matter of priority, health service coverage should be achieved for population groups in greatest need, particularly those living in rural areas. (page 33)

The document is very friendly to farms and calls for assistance to help farms become more productive and less wasteful.

• World food demand projections indicate an increase of 50 per cent by the year 2000 which will more than double again by 2050. Conservative estimates put pre-harvest and post-harvest losses caused by pests between 25 and 50 per cent. Pests affecting animal health also cause heavy losses and in many areas prevent livestock development. Chemical control of agricultural pests has dominated the scene, but its overuse has adverse effects on farm budgets, human health and the environment, as well as on international trade. New pest problems continue to develop. (page 141)

If any of the points I mentioned fall on the same page numbers matching your document, then we most likely have the same document from June 1992.

I finished the whole document and I again looked at all the "pictures." There were none at all.

Please double-check that you are not basing your beliefs on one of the many conspiracy hoaxes about this document.

On 9/4/2017 at 11:36 PM, Jay Witness said:

If you got the answer correct, please let me know so I can take
your crazy ass off my list! 

Uh oh! He's got a list!

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

Its in the booklet as you read it you will find it. Pictures speak a thousand words too. 

You didn't confirm if it's even the same document. The one I am reading is searchable and I read about 50 pages of the areas that would have been relevant. I searched on "bunker" "Colorado" "CO" "bunkers" "California" "CA" "population" "farm" "farms" and about 30 other words that might have been relevant. I also saw all the "pictures."

I'm thinking you were not looking in the same document. Perhaps you could tell me what link you used to find the document you were reading.

Just noticed you added the length of the document. Mine also has 351 pages. Let me know if you were able to find any of the points you said were there.

On 8/31/2017 at 4:55 PM, Alessandro Corona said:

Luke 21:8 He said: “Look out that you are not misled, for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The due time is near.’ Do not go after them.

Let us assume, I am a new study, I have already been made aware of the 1914 prophecy, I then read this scripture in my off time and bring it up in the study. How would you defend 1914?

There is nothing wrong with the single idea that the due time is near. Even if it is 1,000 years in the future, it is nearer now than when we first became believers. The book of Revelation appears intended to bring that day "close in mind." It makes it easier to imagine by giving us imagery and symbols that make us desirous of getting through the "pangs of distress" as @John Houston mentioned, and finally reaching the "new heavens and new earth" of Revelation 21 and 22. Revelation itself mentions that the "due time is near."

• (Revelation 1:1-3) 1 A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John, 2 who bore witness to the word God gave and to the witness Jesus Christ gave, even to all the things he saw. 3 Happy is he who reads aloud and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and who observe the things written in it; for the appointed time is near.

Peter provides a good commentary that fits both Revelation and Jesus' revelation in Matthew 24 and Luke 21. Peter gives us a practical way to view these revelations about Christ's parousia.

• (1 Peter 4:7-10) 7 But the end of all things has drawn close. Therefore, be sound in mind, and be vigilant with a view to prayers. 8 Above all things, have intense love for one another, because love covers a multitude of sins. 9 Be hospitable to one another without grumbling. 10 To the extent that each one has received a gift, use it in ministering to one another as fine stewards of God’s undeserved kindness that is expressed in various ways.
• (2 Peter 3:11-13) 11 Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell.

2 Peter 1 pointed out that Christ's parousia could be 1,000 years off, or even on the order of 1,000's of years off. People would even be ridiculing Christians for the fact that things are still going on as they always were, so that it was obvious that the parousia had not yet begun. They were already doing that when the letters of 2 Peter and Jude were being written. People were still doing that in the year 1000 C.E. and 2000 C.E, and although it gets harder to see how things could go one, Jehovah might even allow things to go on to 3000 C.E. But this does not mean that the end is not "near" or "close." Then end of all things, the day of the Lord, could arrive tonight at 6:30 p.m. But for all of us , it is as near as the end of our own lifetime, after which our very next thought or breath would be in the "new heavens and new earth." No matter what, that's how Christians should live their lives.

2 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

Read in Agenda 21 to see what's planned for CA and Bunkers in Colorado and Washington DC. Scary thoughts! Jehovah has His "Own Agenda!" My Son loves working for Jehovah all over the ? earth! My blessing from Jehovah! 

Nothing of the sort is in there. I have the 350-page document I got here:

https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf

What is the link to the document you are talking about? If it's the same one, why does it say nothing about Colorado, California or Washington D.C.?

I know that a lot of fundamentalist religions (including the Tea Party) are quick to make a conspiracy theory about anything that comes from the United Nations. (Many Witnesses have done this for years, too.) There will always be the danger of government over-reach and mismanagement of these ideas, but as far as the ideas themselves, they are excellent. I don't think they go far enough.

9 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Interesting questions as we attempt to rationalise the "machinations of the devil" and his demons! Are we saying that we are too intelligent to fall for their childish tricks?

I think the answer to that question is mostly YES! We are intelligent enough not to fall for his tricks. But that doesn't mean we won't fall for them, because Satan's biggest trick doesn't appeal to our intelligence but to our desires.

• (2 Corinthians 2:11) 11 so that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

By the way, the Bible never, ever, says that demons can possess things that might therefore become dangerous to us. There is never a warning against owning things that might have been previously owned or influenced by demons or spirit mediums. Yet, on such matters, the Bible is all we need to be fully equipped, which also means that the Bible has told us all we need to know about being fully equipped, putting on the complete suit of armor, to fight the Devil. Instead of ever mentioning objects like Ouija boards, or amulets, or even false idols, we are told that these things (idols) are nothing. Instead the counsel we get is all about watching our desires:

• (James 1:14, 15) 14 But each one is tried by being drawn out and enticed by his own desire. 15 Then the desire, when it has become fertile, gives birth to sin; in turn sin, when it has been carried out, brings forth death.

• (James 1:27) 27 The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world.

  (James 4:1-8) 4 What is the source of the wars and fights among you? Do they not originate from your fleshly desires that carry on a conflict within you? 2 You desire, and yet you do not have. You go on murdering and coveting, and yet you are not able to obtain. You go on fighting and waging war. You do not have because of your not asking. 3 When you do ask, you do not receive because you are asking for a wrong purpose, so that you may spend it on your fleshly desires. 4 Adulteresses, do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Whoever, therefore, wants to be a friend of the world is making himself an enemy of God. 5 Or do you think that for no reason the scripture says: “The spirit that has taken up residence within us keeps enviously longing”? 6 However, the undeserved kindness that He gives is greater. So it says: “God opposes the haughty ones, but he gives undeserved kindness to the humble ones.” 7 Therefore, subject yourselves to God; but oppose the Devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw close to God, and he will draw close to you.. . .

   

30 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

I do not see it as a coincidence that the peculiar conditions prevalent in New York State (Burned-over district) that provided a backdrop to the emergence of Charles Russell and his early Bible Students should be accompanied by the "plethora of curiosities" you refer to.

And just to help you keep @Anna's interest, she should know that Joseph Smith of Mormon fame also had his start in the Burned-over district. (In the same time period when Second Adventists began rescorching the region.)

3 hours ago, Michael Krewson said:

. Does it actually exist?

2. What does it actually say?

https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/content/documents/Agenda21.pdf

I picked up a 350 page document from here. Nothing about bunkers in CO or DC.

There has been talk about the over-reach of laws for sustainable development and renewable resources for years. The far right and Tea Party for example made a lot out of the conspiracies that cropped up regarding what this would mean for the United States. Looks like all that conspiracy is not worth much. Typical fear-mongering. A lot of fundamentalist religions (including the Tea Party) make a conspiracy out of things that come from the UN. So it's to be expected.

I have seen some areas to complain about, but not because they go too far, but because they don't go far enough.

On 9/22/2017 at 11:09 PM, Jay Witness said:

Anyone know what's going on?

I think that cities are considered to be terror threats, even though JWs are not the target.  Also, continuous new building projects, and property sales, can be a way to gain some good publicity, at least neutral if not positively positive. Property is of interest to everyone, even where religion is of no interest to some. Rutherford knew this when he had the deed written up for a large house in San Diego. Also, it will look the same as expansion even if it is part of downsizing. You can buy a lot of property outside a large city for the same price of a small property inside a large city.

On 9/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, Bible Speaks said:

I think that what the reasons were to get out of the big cities. Agenda 21, a UN brochure on reorganization of large cities

Interesting, I just read Agenda 21. I think, for the most part, it's really good. Hope it's not too little too late for too many. But these are great ideas. Thanks.

On 9/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, Bible Speaks said:

Downsizing is good for us all! My Son is at Wallkill Bethel now almost 6 years.

Agreed. Wallkill is beautiful this time of year. Glad for your son.

Moving some posts from another topic, which had moved from a discussion of news related to the expression "Peace and Security" to a doctrinal discussion about the actual scriptural meaning of the verse in question:

On 9/22/2017 at 4:29 PM, Gone Fishing said:

I always found it fascinating that the Greek word translated as "spiritism" (pharmakeia) has no relationship to the word "spirit" (pneuma) or any of it's derivatives.

I remember researching this connection once. It's also possible that the connection between spiritism (pharmakeia) and pharmacology is there, but might not be as close as we have imagined. Those who sold and studied herbs and medicines and poisons (drugs) were put into the same category as those who were known to use herbs and medicines and poisons to induce magic, spells, trances, or even induce prophecy and oracles.

As sure as dervishes will whirl, being a prophet was associated with strange behavior:

• (Numbers 11:25) . . .And as soon as the spirit settled down on them, they began to behave as prophets, but they did not do it again.
• (1 Samuel 19:20) . . ., the spirit of God came to be upon Saul’s messengers, and they began behaving as prophets as well.
• (1 Samuel 19:22-24) . . .” 23 While Saul was on his way from there to Naiʹoth in Raʹmah, the spirit of God came upon him as well, and he walked along behaving as a prophet until he came into Naiʹoth in Raʹmah. 24 He also stripped off his garments, and he too behaved as a prophet before Samuel, and he lay there naked all that day and all that night. That is why they say: “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

But oddly the "spirit medium" at Endor whom Saul visited was called a "bottle" in Hebrew. It's the same word here too: 

• (Isaiah 8:19) 19 And if they say to you: “Inquire of the spirit mediums or of the fortune-tellers who chirp and mutter,”
• (Isaiah 29:4) 4 And you must become low so that you will speak from the very earth, and as from the dust your saying will sound low. And like a spirit medium your voice must become even from the earth, and from the dust your own saying will chirp.

When the Greeks behind the LXX saw this word for "spirit medium" they translated it "engastrimyth" or "ventriloquist" -- so there's your "spirit" = "wind" = "vent." But not really, of course. The Latin translators used the word "python" in these places. 

• 1 Sam 28:7 (LXX) . . .καὶ ζητήσω ἐν αὐτῇ καὶ εἶπαν οἱ παῖδες αὐτοῦ πρὸς αὐτόν ἰδοὺ γυνὴ ἐγγαστρίμυθος ἐν Αενδωρ
• 1 Sam 28:7 (Latin V.) . . .et sciscitabor per illam et dixerunt servi eius ad eum est mulier habens pythonem in Aendor

It's all tied back together for us here in the Acts 16:16 footnote in the NWT:

*** Rbi8 Acts 16:16 ***

• Lit., “with a spirit of python.” Gr., eʹkhou·san pneuʹma pyʹtho·na.

"Spirit of a python" is the literal wording that the NWT translates as "demon of divination."

• (Acts 16:16) 16 And it happened that as we were going to the place of prayer, a certain servant girl with a spirit, a demon of divination, met us. She used to furnish her masters with much gain by practicing the art of prediction.

Insight adds the following:

*** it-1 p. 638 Divination ***

• “Spirit of Python.” In Philippi, Macedonia, Paul met a servant girl who was possessed by “a spirit, a demon of divination,” literally, “a spirit of python” (Gr., pneuʹma pyʹtho·na; Ac 16:16). “Python” was the name of the mythical snake that guarded the temple and oracle of Delphi, Greece. The word pyʹthon came to refer to a person who could foretell the future and also to the spirit that spoke through that one. Although later used to denote a ventriloquist, here in Acts it is used to describe a demon who enabled a young girl to practice the art of prediction.

The reason for the Hebrew word "bottle" is not because of genies in a bottle or bottles sold at pharmacies, but probably simply because of the low, echoing sound you hear from tapping on a bottle made from skin, or the way it changes the sound of your voice when speaking "through" the bottle. So words sometimes got attached to ideas, and remained there, not strictly because of a direct connection that was still continuing but sometimes from a connection that was nearly lost over time. (Although the connection between SOME forms of pharmacy and SOME forms of witchcraft remain even today.)

Other examples of words that might have had spiritistic or astrological origin, but have lost that meaning over time were mentioned recently under another topic. They might include the words:

• capricious
• disaster,
• influenza,
• jovial,
• lunatic,
• martial,
• mazel tov,
• mercurial,
• saturnine,
• venerial, etc.

7 minutes ago, Gone Fishing said:

More recently too :     

Amazing! First I ever heard of this. I just skimmed a 1,551 page pdf file, where someone went to the trouble to digitize this thing into searchable text and links. What an amazing waste of time!

Just saw this on a Google search for one of the links:

• Oahspe is a book written in 1880 by an American dentist named John Ballou Newbrough [1828-1891]. He claimed that it was the result of automatic writing,

Interesting that Seola was not claimed by its own author to have been anything like "automatic writing," and yet even as early as Russell himself it may have been seen as a kind of "inspired" or "automatic writing." I don't see the original author claiming that she even used a strangely mixed musical performance as a way to get at the information, as is implied in an early review of the book. Only that, like a lot of secular authors, she claims that listening to beautiful music helped her muse as an author. "Angels and Women" was edited so heavily after Seola that I have wondered if the claim that it was "dictated" by a "fallen angel" wasn't just a ruse to make some money through one of the Society's publications (The Golden Age). Both Woodworth and Russell had (at other times) used their publications for the purpose of raising money. (Solon Society, for example.)

6 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

I was concerned about this, so on the strength of a paragraph in the old Truth book (p145, para 14), I searched the room. Under the couch I was sleeping on I found....a Ouija board! I dispensed of it and ..you guessed it...no more sleepless nights!

Your experience reminds me of a thought I had when I read this bit of "news" back in 1992

*** g92 8/22 p. 29 Watching the World ***

• Demonism in Rome  Gabriele Amorth claims that he has dealt with 12,000 cases of demon possession in the city of Rome alone since his appointment as a Catholic exorcist in 1986. “Why so many?” asked a journalist of the Italian newspaper Il Tempo. “All traditionally Catholic countries,” the priest asserted, “are immersed in a sea of infestation. Demon attacks can no longer be stemmed.” Amorth had harsh words for Rome: “The city of the pope is the most demon-possessed in the world. Over a hundred satanic cults operate there . . . Everybody should know that many children disappear in Rome and are used in satanic rites.”

Of course, this man was just as likely to find that the reason for the demon possession, in his mind, was that he found an old Truth book under the bed.

When we were dating, my wife had a study with a couple that I took over when we got married. (Both now baptized for 30 years.) Many nights, both the husband and the wife would hear things being thrown and dishes breaking, etc. My wife had already gone through all the ideas about getting rid of all crosses and religious imagery (which they gladly did). I had been a complete skeptic, not about the fact of demon possession, but about the object and manner of demon possession. This skepticism started especially after hearing the comment of a District Overseer vetting assembly experiences around 1974/5. At any rate, I had never expected to hear about both a husband and wife simultaneously experiencing the same thing.

We told them to try praying aloud and calling out the name "Jehovah" which was always the best solution offered during the assembly experiences. They claimed that they had even called out "Jehovah! Jehovah!" and it didn't work. (Although I have personally heard persons claim that it worked for them and others.) What finally worked was to just tell them to call us any time of the day or night when the experience happened.

I might have mentioned it when this came up during a recent discussion of the pronunciation of YHWH, but it appears that some of the magical amulets and magical papyri in Egypt show that the spiritistic magicians around the time of Jesus' human life were using the pronunciation "Je-ho-vah" (in addition to Ye-ho-wa, Yahuweh, Joweh, Jove, etc) as a way to invoke the spirit of magic. It occurred to me then, although I didn't mention it, that these magicians were, in effect, invoking demons by calling out "Jehovah!! Jehovah!"

In our congregation in Missouri in 1964 to 1974 I remember many talks that seemed to be aimed at the sisters who shopped at Goodwill and Salvation Army. Salvation Army was ruled against for its religious ties anyway, but for those who hadn't made a religious connection to Goodwill Industries, there were always warnings about how items that might seem innocuous could still be demon-possessed. What JTR pointed out here once, which surprised me for how obvious it seems now, was that no one ever warned the brothers that a used car (or car parts from a junk-yard, or a used lawn-mower, etc) might just as well be demon-possessed. It was always the things that women were known to shop for.

1 hour ago, AllenSmith said:

Could it be possible, people like Gerber and others lied in order to receive recognition?

Are you thinking, therefore, that it's possible that Rutherford or Woodworth lied to get more recognition for the "Angels & Women" book? 

17 minutes ago, Anna said:

I know who you're talking about as I saw their remark too. I would like to believe though it was made because the person lacked maturity and said it in more of a "cut my nose off to spite my face" manner. But I could be wrong. As Fishing says, some people have all the fun But not me, I have not met anyone in real life who says that, but who knows, they might be thinking it!

Good point again. It's easy to create an over-the-top persona and whip up a pile-on of up-votes to go with it. There appears to be a lot less of this in real life. But it's still something to be careful about. One of the elders in our congregation has created a kind of "formula" at the end of all his prayers over the last few years, where he thanks Jehovah for the Governing Body, then "redundantly" offers thanks for the  wonderful food provided by the Slave, through Jesus Christ. Amen.  He prayed at a backyard bar-b-que this summer and accidentally thanked Jehovah for "this food provided by the Slave."  I thought he meant one of our wives.

9 minutes ago, Nana Fofana said:

Pleiades lore was respectable academic anthropology for some while beyond the time  you indicate WT publications stopped references, it looks like-

Not sure what you mean. What you showed is completely unrelated to Pleiades. Pleiades lore has never been "respectable academic anthropology."

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

I don't want to speak for Fishing,  he is quite capable of explaining himself, but what I understood him to mean by that is not that the information you presented was rubbish - as in untrue, after all you cited references, but that the belief itself was rubbish and obviously nonsensical.

Yes. Good point. The paragraph that GF called rubbish was both true and false. Just like the opening post in this topic way back on page 1. I wasn't sure how much of it GF knew to be true, but the primary point was about what we do when something is partly true and partly false. Our instinct is often to dismiss it all, but labelling it ALL as rubbish might not be the right way to handle it.

Looks like GF just responded. I'll go read it and see if I misunderstood.

18 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

They assert that the number of earthquakes has not substantially increased in recent decades. In fact, the U.S. National Earthquake Information Center reports that earthquakes of 7.0 magnitude and greater remained “fairly constant” throughout the 20th century.*

?????????

Note, though, that the fulfillment of Jesus’ prophecy does not require an increase in the number or power of earthquakes.

Interesting that we tried for decades to convince people that the number of earthquakes had increased since 1914. It's more likely that the overall number has decreased or remained steady.

But the Insight book has not yet been corrected:

*** it-1 p. 670 Earthquake ***

• Since 1914 C.E., there has been an increase in the number of earthquakes, resulting in much distress. With data obtained from the National Geophysical Data Center in Boulder, Colorado, supplemented by a number of standard reference works, a tabulation was made in 1984 that included only earthquakes that measured 7.5 or more on the Richter scale, or that resulted in destruction of five million dollars (U.S.) or more in property, or that caused 100 or more deaths. It was calculated that there had been 856 of such earthquakes during the 2,000 years before 1914. The same tabulation showed that in just 69 years following 1914 there were 605 of such quakes. These statistics are a means of indicating the extent of suffering from earthquakes during this period of history.

This was just a false reading of a chart. Just because we don't KNOW about as many earthquakes that happened 2,000 years ago when there weren't so many measuring devices that could detect them, doesn't mean that there weren't many more earthquakes than ever got recorded. Since there are more population centers and more high value properties, we have now changed the meaning of "great earthquakes" to mean earthquakes that take a great many lives or produce a lot of destroyed "value."

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

it is not necessary to repeal each one. Not reiterating it is enough.

That has been true of many teachings that just get ignored long enough, and then no one has to be reminded (or surprised) that we ever taught such a thing. In the case of the Pleiades, however, this had been repeated in about 6 or 7 places, including Studies in the Scriptures (which were sold well into the 1930s) and it had been repeated in Watchtowers in the 1920s. It might have even gotten tangled up in the Photo-Drama of Creation. But remember too that back in the 1950's, the KH Library was the primary source for research, and the unwritten rule was that it was still "on the books" unless expressly changed. And it was one of those things that Rutherford had repeated in the 1920's and he had not changed during those years when he would positively "binge" on change from 1927 to 1931.

So it's true that it hadn't been mentioned for a couple of decades (unless we had "talk outlines" in the 1940's and 1950's that I don't know about.) But the real reason was scriptural. It was thought that continuing this teaching could result in a subtle idolatry or astrology:

*** w53 11/15 p. 703 Questions From Readers ***

• Hence it is useless to indulge in unprofitable speculations. Incidentally, Pleiades can no longer be considered the center of the universe and it would be unwise for us to try to fix God’s throne as being at a particular spot in the universe. Were we to think of the Pleiades as his throne we might improperly view with special veneration that cluster of stars.—Deut. 4:19; 2 Chron. 2:6; 6:18.

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Now if we are going to start washing the dirty linen of past error on the part of those associated with the movement we now belong to, great care must be taken in the manner and context in which this is shared. Otherwise, there is a danger of  undermining respect for the information and counsel we now get through what amounts to being the same channel. This of course will serve the same interests of the one behind spiritism and will  prove the wisdom of Jesus' words "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand." As we are aware that the kingdom of God is a kingdom that "will never be brought to ruin", (Dan.2:44 NWT1984), we do not have to use much imagination to know which kingdom, city, or house will come to desolation, not through overt spiritism, but simply through an unwise use of the tongue which could serve, ultimately, the same purpose.

I know that the counsel about not exposing dirty laundry is sincere, and for this I thank you. As far as I can tell, such counsel should not apply to this particular situation. Obviously, then, we see our duty in this regard quite differently, and so, in the spirit of 1 Peter 3:15,  I feel I should explain. 

The dirty laundry is already hung up for everyone to see. This is the Internet. Anyone can simply Google the information claimed in the original post of this topic, and they will discover that there is plenty more information out there. As usual, some of it is true and some of it is false.

So we are back to discussing the old dilemma about whether we should reveal truth in response to falsehood, or just ignore it. For the most part, we just ignore it. But there are times when it is obvious that the person posting does not necessarily know that the claims contain false charges. Or perhaps they know for sure that the information is skewed toward the false but that there is still some truth in it, and yet, other people who read the skewed information may not know what to believe. Perhaps they think it's all true, or all false. Perhaps their first instinct is to call the whole thing "rubbish." But what if calling something "rubbish" is not really honest either, because perhaps it contains more truth than falsehood? Is there any value to pointing out the error? What if an interested person who has Googled the information now sees us as a people who are just too anxious to cover up facts?

Through private messaging on this forum someone just asked me why I think JWs have so much turnover. I know that we are always anxious to say that our moral standards and expectations are very high and we are expected to judge those people who leave on their own as persons who just didn't want to live up to those expectations. But in speaking to many of these persons, we often come away with a different picture. I think it's more of a matter of realizing that nothing is quite as perfect as it appears at first. When people first study and are baptized, it is with the understanding that we have the only true religion in the entire earth. Therefore, it is expected to be the most perfect. Even though they are warned that it isn't perfect, it still sets up the highest expectations. Then they learn that not all the brothers and sisters live up to the moral standards as well as they expected. They learn about or perhaps see examples of lack of love, or even racism, shunning, child abuse, or gossip. When they are disappointed, they often start to believe that there is no religion that is really what it claims to be, and they often leave all religion altogether. In spite of the focus of ex-JWs online, I think it's rarely about past JW or IBSA history, or related issues with doctrine.

If this were merely about the error of a brother or sister who made a false step in the past, then we would do best to just ignore it. Love covers a multitude of sins. But what if the errors are being denied specifically because it would reflect on the trustworthiness of current doctrine?

That last question reminds me of your own statement here:

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Otherwise, there is a danger of  undermining respect for the information and counsel we now get through what amounts to being the same channel.

Does telling the truth about the past undermine respect for information we now get from the same channel? What you said appears to be an inadvertent admission that it does. If it does, then it is probably all the more important that we offer a true and honest perspective. I should mention that personally, I don't even see much real importance in wallowing in the problems of yesterday or last week, much less the problems of 100 years ago. This applies to the Governing Body, too. I know that one person here often comments that no one should try to use the past examples of Bible Students to shed light on our current beliefs as JWs, even if we consider the same "Governing Body" to have begun in 1919. But I don't even consider the Governing Body of last year to be the exact same "channel" as the Governing Body of this year, even if they be the same persons. That's partly because none of us are expected to be the same from day to day:

• (2 Corinthians 4:16-18) 16 . . .  certainly the man we are inside is being renewed from day to day. . . . 18 while we keep our eyes, not on the things seen, but on the things unseen. For the things seen are temporary, but the things unseen are everlasting.

On the other hand, it must necessarily be the case that if an honest approach to the Governing Body's past can undermine the respect for the present Governing Body, then this is almost a direct admission that both the present and the past is being misrepresented. And, of course, it's easy to show that we regularly misrepresent our past almost every time we print a book about it or make a claim about it. We do it as individual humans and we do it as an organization. It's a common human failing to want to be seen as better than we really are. It's what's behind the instinct to call something "obviously rubbish" and "nonsensical gobbledygook" even if it's more true than false. (That's the reason that I included that paragraph about Rutherford that you reviewed as you did. In fact, there was a lot more truth to it than falsehood. Not just as a Bible Student, but as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, Rutherford really did believe that the holy spirit was no longer available to us after 1918, and that new truths could now be revealed with the direct help of angels. And the idea that Jehovah's throne was in Alcyone, the brightest star of Pleiades, was still being promoted and taught from the 1880's into the 1930's, and not dropped officially until well into Knorr's presidency in November 1953. Details available upon request.)

11 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

This of course will serve the same interests of the one behind spiritism and will  prove the wisdom of Jesus' words "Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand."

One of the most dangerous problems among many Witnesses that we can see today is the equivalence that is made between the Governing Body and Jehovah. Surely this is what serves the same interests of the one behind spiritism. Idolatry is also something Jehovah hates.

On this forum, several persons who have presented themselves as sincere Witnesses have recently said that the way we "follow the Lamb wherever he goes," is to follow the Governing Body wherever they go. They have said that they would rather follow the Governing Body into KNOWN ERROR than to accept the Bible where it is known to differ from the current teachings of the Governing Body. The slave has become greater than his master. Witnesses here have defended having this kind of faith in men even where they KNOW personally that something is amiss.

This is a good reason to be completely honest, and not try to whitewash either the present or the past. I think it's important to show that we are not trying to please men, and to make it clear why we should NOT put our faith in princes, nobles, or any humans, where we feel that faith is related to salvation:

• (Psalm 146:3) “Do not put your trust in nobles, nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs."
• (Luke 16:15) “. . .For what is considered exalted by men is a disgusting thing in God’s sight."