JW Insider

37 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

1 hour ago, Srecko Sostar said:

You are funny. Maybe kids would believe this. Not me :))))

You are indeed an unusual person.

Looking back, I'd have to say that @Srecko Sostar is exactly right on this point. Although I agree that it's "unusual" for even a JW to know about this particular point, he was responding to your point about Mexico, TTH, when you said that the rules are different in each country

2 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

The rules are doubtless different in each country and I am not everywhere. I speak of the U.S.

The rules were exactly the same in Mexico for a religious organization, and the Society could have done in Mexico exactly what other religions were doing there, and exactly what the Society had chosen to do in other Central American countries. The only difference was that a religious organization could not own property but had to lease it. The brothers and sisters could have prayed, and sung Kingdom Songs, and conducted Bible studies, and used the Bible in field service just as we do almost everywhere else. When we lived in California and visited our relatives in San Diego and Oceanside, they would regularly visit brothers in Mexico on a day trip. Our whole family had visited the brothers there on several occasions when we were just a "cultural" organization. As soon as the rules changed and religious organizations could own their own property, the Society announced that we would now operate as a religious organization.

We avoided public prayer and singing and Bible reading in our meetings purely based on choices made in Brooklyn. In other countries, we fought for the right to have public prayer and singing and Bible reading in our meetings. For some reason we didn't think it was that important to our brothers in Mexico, until we could own the property. 

18 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

Has anybody compared Jer.8:11 in this debate?

Not yet. What did you have in mind?

To me, it's a useful comparison, and I think there are many parallels and similar lessons. The context is similar in some ways and not so much in other ways. In both cases, however, there is a sense that things can continue as they are (Jeremiah) as they have been all along with no sign of a "Parousia" (Peter) and this is a false hope that there never will be a Babylon-on-Jerusalem judgment event (Jeremiah) or a Final Parousia judgment event (Peter).

• (2 Peter 3:3) First of all know this, that in the last days ridiculers will come with their ridicule, proceeding according to their own desires 4 and saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as they were from creation’s beginning.”

In Jeremiah 8, the families of Jerusalem are also holding fast to a deception. Similarly to the people who go on eating and drinking and marrying and claiming that things are going along as always they also "keep returning to the popular course." (v6) In Jeremiah's case, however, he was also up against the "governing body" of Jerusalem who presented a scenario very different from that of Jeremiah. Some were saying "we are wise, and we have the law of Jehovah." (v8). In the previous chapter there was a similar idea. Those close to the Temple were sure that this alone was enough to save them and they put their trust in the fact that they were close to the Temple and that they represented the Temple:

• (Jeremiah 7:4-7) 4 Do not put your trust in deceptive words and say, ‘This is the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah!’ 5 For if you truly reform your ways and actions; if you truly uphold justice between a man and his neighbor; 6 if you do not oppress foreign residents, orphans, and widows; if you do not shed innocent blood in this place; and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm; 7 then I will allow you to keep residing in this place. . .

But those who thought they were wise were actually using their position to promote falsehood (v8) and this fraud was going to catch up with them. Their claim of peace was wishful thinking. It was their own sinful practices that they thought they were getting away with -- their injustice, sin, idolatry etc.

• (Jeremiah 8:3-22) 3 “And the remnant of this evil family who survive will choose death over life in all the places where I disperse them,” declares Jehovah of armies. 4 “And you must say to them, ‘This is what Jehovah says: “Will they fall and not get up again? If one would turn back, will the other not also turn back?  5 Why is this people, Jerusalem, unfaithful with an enduring unfaithfulness? They hold fast to deception; They refuse to turn back.  6 I paid attention and kept listening, but the way they spoke was not right. Not a man repented over his wickedness or asked, ‘What have I done?’ Each one keeps returning to the popular course, like a horse dashing into the battle.  7 Even the stork in the sky knows its seasons; The turtledove and the swift and the thrush keep to the time of their return. But my own people do not understand the judgment of Jehovah.”’  8 ‘How can you say: “We are wise, and we have the law of Jehovah”? For in fact, the lying stylus of the scribes has been used only for falsehood.  9 The wise have been put to shame. They have become terrified and will be caught. Look! They have rejected the word of Jehovah, And what wisdom do they have? 10 So I will give their wives to other men, Their fields to other owners; For from the least to the greatest, each one is making dishonest gain; From the prophet to the priest, each one is practicing fraud. 11 And they try to heal the breakdown of the daughter of my people lightly, saying, “There is peace! There is peace!” When there is no peace. 12 Do they feel ashamed of the detestable things they have done? They feel no shame at all! They do not even know how to feel humiliated! So they will fall among the fallen. When I bring punishment on them they will stumble,’ says Jehovah. 13 ‘When I gather them, I will bring them to their end,’ declares Jehovah. ‘There will be no grapes left on the vine, no figs on the fig tree, and the leaves will wither. And what I gave to them will be lost to them.’” 14 “Why are we sitting here? Let us gather together and enter the fortified cities and perish there. For Jehovah our God will do away with us, And he gives us poisoned water to drink, Because we have sinned against Jehovah. 15 There was a hope for peace, but nothing good came, For a time of healing, but there is terror! 16 From Dan is heard the snorting of his horses. At the sound of the neighing of his stallions, The whole land quakes. They come in and devour the land and everything in it, The city and its inhabitants.” 17 “For here I am sending in serpents among you, Poisonous snakes that cannot be charmed, And they will certainly bite you,” declares Jehovah. 18 My grief is incurable; My heart is sick. 19 From a distant land there is a cry for help From the daughter of my people: “Is Jehovah not in Zion? Or is her king not in her?” “Why have they offended me with their graven images, With their worthless foreign gods?” 20 “The harvest has passed, the summer has ended, But we have not been saved!” 21 I am shattered over the breakdown of the daughter of my people; I am dejected. Horror has seized me. 22 Is there no balsam in Gilʹe·ad? Or is there no healer there? Why has the daughter of my people not been restored to health?

So, I think there are some lessons here that are applicable in general. There are people trying to fool themselves in order to follow their own selfish desires, when it should be obvious that wickedness cannot go unpunished forever. I get the sense that Jeremiah is more about internal squabbles among various factions of Judean inhabitants and their priests and rulers who don't want to listen to the specific counsel of Jehovah through Jeremiah. These others are relying on their own words and reasoning and asking others to listen to them due to their positions of authority. They are making claims of peace that have nothing to do with reality. The kings of the North (Jeremiah 1:15) are already shaking up the entire country starting with "Dan" (representing the farthest major point in the north). (Jeremiah 8:16). So peace in this case is just a lie in the midst of terror.

As far as some other differences go, I get the impression that Paul is paralleling the talk of peace and security in 1 Thessalonians with anyone (Christian, Jewish, or outsider) being truly fooled by changing trends in the conditions so that at least some people truly think there really is safety because they really feel no threat. (In Jeremiah's case, I think he is referring to more of a willful attempt to hide the obvious terror by telling lies about the prospects for peace.)

As an aside, I have also noticed some interesting parallels in Jeremiah 8 to some things that Jesus mentioned in the Olivet sermon, but I can't figure if they could have been on purpose. The LXX of Jeremiah is quite different from the MT, and might offer some insight. 

• (Matthew 24:32) 32 “Now learn this illustration from the fig tree: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and sprouts its leaves, you know that summer is near.
• (Jeremiah 8:13,20) ‘When I gather them, I will bring them to their end,’ declares Jehovah. ‘There will be no grapes left on the vine, no figs on the fig tree, and the leaves will wither. And what I gave to them will be lost to them.’” . . .20 “The harvest has passed, the summer has ended, But we have not been saved!”

There is even a sense of Jeremiah lamenting over Jerusalem here in a way that's similar to Jesus at the end of Matthew 23. "My heart is sick....Is there no balsam in Gilead?" Even up to a very similar warning:

• (Jeremiah 9:11) 11 I will make Jerusalem piles of stones,. . .

These could be purely coincidental however based on the similarity of the situation.

Per a suggestion by @The Librarian several posts on this topic were moved to another thread, linked at the end of this post -- affecting recent posts by @TrueTomHarley @Nana Fofana, @James Thomas Rook Jr., @AllenSmith, @Witness

https://www.theworldnewsmedia.org/topic/46857-saying-peace-and-security-before-sudden-destruction-1th-53-what-does-it-mean/

9 hours ago, Diakonos said:

what happened to Michael during Jesus earthly presence?

We would assume that Michael, the archangel, became a fetus, a baby, then a toddler, then a young boy, then went through puberty, and became a young man, and then a full grown man who gave himself over to the authorities to be killed. This should give us a glimpse into the level of humility and love shown:

• (Philippians 2:7-11) 7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and became human. 8 More than that, when he came as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death, yes, death on a torture stake. 9 For this very reason, God exalted him to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name, 10 so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground— 11 and every tongue should openly acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

Michael means "Who is like God?" and Immanuel means "With us is God." The Bible never makes a specific point about identifying Michael as either Jesus or Immanuel or Christ. But this is not so different from Matthew saying that he will be called Immanuel, and yet we never hear Jesus called Immanual anywhere either. He was mostly called Jesus, Savior, Rabbi, son of man, son of God, and Messiah (Christ), etc.

I know this wasn't necessarily your point in bringing it up, but a lot of people think we are the only religion that ever thought of claiming that Michael was the same as Jesus Christ prior to his earthly presence. The idea had been around for many years before Jehovah's Witnesses came along. 

5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Perhaps, if certain people would stop trying to influence a topic with words such as “Parousia” to really understand history and its implications? There would be no need to explain, presumptuous, hypothetical’s, by others.

The topic is 1 Thess 5:3: ". . . Peace and Security . . ." and it didn't seem wrong to bring in the context of that same verse which obviously starts in the prior paragraph (according to the NWT) which starts in 4:13 and reaches right up to 5:1 which includes "... we the living who survive to the presence [Parousia] of the Lord."

In fact, the points I have been making are shared in the book "The Parousia in the New Testament" by A. L. Moore. Not to embarrass you, but this is the same book from which you clipped the image. (See below.) In that book, Moore speaks of the Parousia as synonymous with "the End" (page 111) and "the final Day of the Lord" on page 136. Note also, from the book, that the context of this portion of First Thessalonians is about:

• ". . . the status of living Christians at the moment of the Parousia. . . . speaking about the fact that neither group will have advantage over the other. . . . between those alive at the Parousia and those dead . . . . speaking of the time of the Parousia's arrival, he does go on to discuss this in 5;i-ii [1 Thess 5:1-11] and there he affirms explicitly that the Parousia will come suddenly and all must watch. . . . since the date of the End is unknown, all are enjoined to watchful, obedient discipleship.

So, curiously, you are saying that "if certain people would stop trying to influence a topic with . . . . [Biblical context] . . . . to really understand history and its implications? There would be no need to explain, presumptuous, hypothetical's, by others" Unfortunately, what you inadvertently admit here has become very true of some subjects. The Biblical context does indeed help us to really understand history and its implications. In fact as the book you presented shows, Paul is here in 1 Thessalonians agreeing with Jesus when Moore indicates: ". . . this letter distinctly emphasises that 'the end is not yet'." Just as Jesus said, wars and rumors of wars were an indication that the end is not yet, in answer to a question about whether the disciples might be given a sign of the end. In other words, don't be fooled (misled) into thinking that wars are a sign of the Parousia (Christ's Judgment Visitation) or the Synteleia (the Final End of All Things).

There must have been a reason that Jesus told us not to be fooled into thinking that great wars would be a sign of the Parousia. Jesus must have been aware that we would be tempted into thinking that they would be. Throughout history, there were surely going to be times when people in many places would perceive continuing, worsening conditions. Now and then there would be a war that was so bad that it would be considered a time when a new generation of wickedness had begun. It would surely be a time when Jesus must come by 1918 at the latest, or 1925, or within 'not years, but months' around the WWII period, or the mid-1970's, or before the end of the twentieth century; or within the outer limits of the current generation of aging Governing Body members. Jesus must have known how tempting and easy it would be to be fooled by thinking that wars and rumors of wars would be a sign of the Parousia. Otherwise, there would be no reason to warn us "Do not be misled, you are going to hear of wars and rumors of wars, nation will rise up against nation and kingdom against kingdom, but the end is not yet." Wars would take place, as Jesus said, but we would be just as likely to fooled by peace, too. People would be marrying and eating and drinking and saying that things were going on just as they always have been since the world's beginning. And the Parousia would come upon them just as the parousia (judgment event) came suddenly upon Noah's generation, or the days of Lot when Sodom was suddently destroyed, as if without warning.

I don't know anything about the last book you included, as if it could help us to "really understand history and its implications." The book you presented in this context, "Politics of Parousia: Reading Mark Inter(Con)Textually" is by Tat-Siong Benny Liew and is described like this in Google Books:

• This volume moves literary criticism of the Gospels further into the socio-political struggle for liberation - particularly, into the realm of colonial/postcolonial discourse. Taking seriously the thought that Mark's Gospel was written under Roman colonization, and using "inter(con)textuality" as an underlying theory, it examines the relation between Mark's story of Jesus and colonial politics, especially Mark's emphasis on the parousia and his constructions of colonial subjects. It argues that Mark's apocalyptic simultaneously resists and reinscribes colonial ideology in terms of three subject-positions and subject-matters: authority, agency, and gender. Juxtaposing apocalyptic and politics, dissidence and duplication as well as Chinese American narratives and the Markan text, this volume seeks to rethink our struggle for social change and the relationship between cultural politics and Gospel studies.

Perhaps you can explain why you included it.

That's at least the second Witness this year killed in a terrorist attack.

Biography

On vacation with her family

Rhonda is originally from Lowell, Massachusetts.^[14] She met her husband Jason, a minister, at Kingdom Hall, and were married for 20 years.^[5] They have a 6 year-old daughter. Rhonda was employed as an experience specialist at IDEO, a creative studio in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In her free time, Rhonda enjoyed cooking for her family and friends. She loved country music and looked forward to her yearly trip to Hawaii with her family.^[2] Rhonda is remembered for her contagious smile and caring nature.^[14]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

If that were the case, they would have been pardoned after the war. Instead, they were exonerated. Their convictions were reversed.

Not exactly. "Exoneration" is not a legal term. They were never declared innocent of all charges. But the prosecution admitted that errors had taken place during the trial. It was declared to be a kind of mistrial that needed to be retried. We were actually one of at least a dozen cases based on the new Sedition Act of 1918. (Several were from other small religions, or individual rogue preachers within a religion.) The prosecution could have renewed the case at any time, but these types of cases are not considered worth the trouble outside the context of some kind of war.

*** yb75 p. 118 Part 2—United States of America ***

• Reversal of the eight Bible Students’ erroneous convictions on May 14, 1919, meant that they were free unless the government chose to reprosecute. But the war was over and the authorities realized that on the basis of the facts it would be impossible to get a conviction. Hence, in open court at Brooklyn, on May 5, 1920, the government’s lawyer announced withdrawal of the prosecution. The indictments were dismissed by action of nolle prosequi.

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Our people can get funny on the internet. But even that is excusable, for anti-Witness trolls come out of the woodwork at any mention of JWs and they feel they ought to weigh in to counter that.

When the only reviews are negative, I've felt the same need to get in and counter with something a bit over-the-top positive. But I like to keep it honest.

In truth, JW Library is an excellent technical achievement. Considering how little we knew in the 1970s about technology (at Bethel) and how the entire computer department was still having trouble getting anything finished correctly well into the 1980s, the Watchtower Library CD is an amazingly good piece of technology. The entire JW.ORG website is top-notch. The WOLJW.ORG is top notch, TV.JW.ORG is almost top notch (JW Broadcasting), and serves its purpose perfectly. So far, all the apps work perfectly, especially on Apple products.

Is there bias in our translation? Yes. But not as much as most people think. But it's still a very useful translation, because many of those biases are based on the fact that the Hebrew and Greek can actually support a wider range of correct translation than most people have imagined. When I worked college/university territories around the campuses of the University of Missouri, I found it very easy to place the Kingdom Interlinear Translation for $2. It didn't matter so much how we had translated it in the margin, but I could show how the Interlinear portion worked as a primer for NT Greek. The value was excellent and the product gave us a lot of credibility. I think all of our recent forays into technology have given us a lot of credibility, even if some had a rough start.

Please excuse the formatting on the following. I just picked up some of Lewis Fulkerson's other reviews on Am a zon . com

There are over 4,000 positive reviews of JW Library. The majority read like SPAM for jw.org. The most memorable had the lines:

Couldn't get this to work yet. Thanks to Jehovah. Visit jw.org. Five stars.

I noticed that LF also reviews movies and TV shows, especially sci-fi, with JW style phrasing in his criticisms. As far as books go, he only reviews books by JWs. I'll highlight the review portion in bold red to make it easier to find... The very last one I threw in there to show that apparently never did much with his Master's in Theology: i.e., worked the last 44 years, since 1968 on computers. (By the way, I've heard circuit overseers claim that all of us who have been reading the Watchtower for a few years have the equivalent of a Master's in Theology. And those of us who read the Awake! for a few years have the equivalent of a college education.)

Anyway, I think the following says a lot about why he says that the NWT is the "best and most accurately [sic] translation."

4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

If he is one of Jehovah's Witnesses giving such high praise ... it can be attributed to agenda driven politic

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 7, 2016

The truth that leads to eternal life

Staying alive

Ditto - keeping the life in check - making it last

Smile

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 7, 2016

Knowledge That Leads to Everlasting Life

Staying Alive...

Want to survive? Read this... NOW!!!

Smile

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 7, 2016

e

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 7, 2016

Jehovah's Witnesses: Proclaimers of God's Kingdom (With Black & White and Colour Photographs)

the only ones

Absolutely a MUST READ!

Survival Into a New Earth

Staying alive

Excellent reading for those who like to think

e

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 7, 2016

Paradise Restored to Mankind

Pay attention

Wonderful thought, and positive way to accomplish the seemingly impossible

 

e

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Oct 22, 2014

BIBLE (NWT)

Scriptural Accuracy

The most accurate translation of the Bible that exists today!

e

 

 

Lewis Fulkerson reviewed a product.

Dec 9, 2012

Network Your Computer & Devices Step by Step

Best ever!

I've been working on computers for 44 years (since 1968) and this is the ONLY book on networking that has made any sense and been of any value to me. What a steal at any price!

 

3 hours ago, Nana Fofana said:

"presence"/"parousia  "In some contexts in the Christian Greek Scriptures, this word describes the royal presence of Jesus Christ from the time of his invisible enthronement as Messianic King onward in the last days of this system of things. Christ’s presence is not simply a coming followed by a quick departure; rather, it covers a marked period of time.—Mt 24:3.

Yes. We have long held onto the tradition that the Parousia is invisible and covers a period of time. We have said it is not the same as the final set of judgment events referred to as the coming/advent/revelation/manifestation. It is interesting then, that all these scriptures can be just as easily explained (perhaps even more easily explained) by proposing that the original speakers of "New Testament Greek" knew what the word Parousia meant. The Greek "New Testament" Bible was translated into Latin, Syriac, Aramaic and Coptic from the original Greek while koine Greek was still being spoken as a living language. Also, some of the early "Church Fathers" whom we often quote in our publications, spoke some of these languages in addition to Greek.

So while it would be a bit off topic to turn this into another full-fledged discussion of Parousia, I find it interesting to notice that a sensible explanation of this verse about Peace and Security can be seen to fit Jesus words, rather than contradict them. I had even noticed a tendency to make them say quite the opposite of what they actually say, and this is a direct result, I think, of our conflicted traditional doctrine about the Parousia. Here's an example:

On 9/28/2017 at 10:35 PM, USASister said:

I think it could be a cry of anguish as well as the false proclamation at the end. Many things in the bible have a smaller and a larger fulfillment.  They are crying for it.  It is heartbreaking really to look at. . . . Truly, " the nations in great anguish, not knowing the way out! "

Notice how this is almost an opposite interpretation of the one that fits the context. (Where Paul parallels the idea of people taking note of "Peace and Security" with the idea that the end will come as a surprise the them, without warning, just a thief in the night.) But it is opposite because we are also taught that it was Satan's anger in 1914 at having "a short period of time" that caused WW I to rage out of control. WW II was even worse than WW I. And we half-expect a WW III to begin escalating as a way to explain the fact that the wars since WW II seem almost mild by comparison (to some). We think, how can this be if Satan must surely have an even shorter period of time now than he had in 1914. If we were right about WW I then Satan should be starting 10 times as many wars just as big as WW I and WW II.

With some creativity, I suppose some of the so-called "Top 40" Star Wars quotes might be worked into the imagined conversation:

• “In time, the suffering of your people will persuade you to see our point of view.” — Nute Gunray
• “I find your lack of faith disturbing.” — Darth Vader
• “What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of a Dark Lord of the Sith?” — Count Dooku
• “I’m one with the Force. The Force is with me.” — Chirrut Îmwe
• “Well, if droids could think, there’d be none of us here, would there?” — Obi-Wan Kenobi

Just now, TrueTomHarley said:

hen do a search for the last 20 or 30 molesters arrested by police in your area. Tell me how many are identified by religion. It's a little work, but do it, if you maintain that a molester's religion is routinely reported.

This came up before and I only answered it because this very thing was done. Except that in our case, all of us do represent ourselves as ministers, which to the world is pretty much the equivalent of clergy. And all of us will have contact with children in our preaching activity. Also, most of the cases among Witnesses involve other Witnesses, as we often limit our circle of trust to primarily Witnesses anyway. The last 20 or so that I heard about were primarily about teachers in some of the local elementary schools and a high school, and of course a few clergy and ministers, too. But the religious affiliation of the teachers was not part of the story, who quite possibly had no religious affiliation anyway.

Someone sent me a list of articles from Australia showing me that the ARC has begun to turn over several of the incidents to local police authorities. A few of the articles did NOT include the fact that these were about JWs and in a couple of cases disfellowshipped JWs. I had to do some further searching and questioning to verify that these were Witness cases, and not just cases from other ARC investigations. In most cases I was able to verify it.

47 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

How often is the religious affiliation of the person reported?

Probably more than half the time, I'm guessing. That's because if it happens within a religious institution like the Roman Catholic Church or a Jewish Temple, the religious institution is part of the story. Just as if it were a football coach or a gymnastics coach it can reflect on the college, university or sports organization that hired the abuser.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

Many worry some will not learn Gods Truth, but she learned God's Word and hope they would too.

The idea that she hoped they would learn God's Word too is never included in the story. She had obviously given up hope if she already wondered who would replace them in the New System. (At this point in the story, she is already 10 years old.)

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

We don't teach that those who don't learn the Truth will die.

Yes. We do. Not all of course, and we don't judge specific individuals, but we definitely teach that there will be persons who will die because they didn't learn the Truth. And it's obvious that it's so common to believe this, that even a member of the Governing Body hadn't considered it wrong to tell a story that centers on exactly this idea. Note that no one is trying to correct the girl for having a misapprehension. The pull of the story is that the little girl died still "knowing" that her parents, in their current situation, would be either killed by Jehovah or forgotten forever by Jehovah.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

We can't judge others that is only for Jehovah and His Son Christ to do.

That's the point. The little girl judged her parents as worthy of death. And no part of the story, as told here, corrects that point. The story works if they were worthy of death UNTIL they learned the Truth after their daughter died. (This, by the way, is seen as child abuse in a psychological sense, which I'm sure we'd be quick to see if it was a Muslim girl with a Muslim Auntie who was being taught this same thing about her Buddhist parents.)

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

We never know who will return, but we learn it will be a resurrection of all that have died.

Then you understand why she should not have judged them.

1 hour ago, Bible Speaks said:

The Joy she felt was very great when sadness happened, we never know.

I don't understand this at all. Why would her joy be very great if sadness happened?

19 hours ago, Bible Speaks said:

Was it not a tear ? touching story, real.

It's a tear touching story, but it's also sad that a child learns so early to be so judgmental of her parents that she believes Jehovah will kill them at Armageddon and/or that they will not be resurrected to an opportunity to life on earth when they die. A little girl had to compartmentalize a fear and even a kind of judgmental "hatred" of her own parents in the resignation that they would be eternally destroyed by her God.

Just now, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Was  5 cents the Pioneer rate?

Yes. We had it made!! This book went like hotcakes. It's the expression we heard a lot, and it was true. It was the pioneer's bread and butter somedays. Also, in those days, there was no request to put the "profit" back in the contribution box, because the buyers of the book were not contributing to the Kingdom work, they were actually contributing to our ability to continue pioneering.

Over the years, I bought several hundred of these at only a nickel apiece. Placed them for 25 cents apiece. Every two placed was another gallon of gas for pioneering. Only have about 2 left.

I was baptized the year before it was released.

Since this came out in 1968 it pushed the 1975 date in a couple of places, as a time when the world would reach a peak of crises and catastrophes.  The book was updated in 1981 to get rid of the 1975 date.

This was an excellent style for studying. We didn't spend too long on any subject, and there were a lot of scriptures packed into the material that were just cited and not quoted. So a study could go long or short and still cover the material depending on the preference of the person we were studying with. Millions became Witnesses based on this book, especially former Catholics. But I think it had about equal appeal to people of many backgrounds.

40 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

It will absolutely happen. But there have been false positives along the way.

I've seen the same many times. Part of it is undoubtedly based on the possible pretension that the verse speaks of a "CRY" of Peace and Security, and that exclamation point that the NWT puts at the end of it. The Bible says nothing about a "cry" of Peace and Security. There is no reason to make it a quotation or put an exclamation mark after it.

If this were true, then this would be a sign of the parousia, which contradicts the fact that the parousia comes as a thief, and a thief does not give a sign before he robs a house.

Don't know whether it's right, but there is a completely different way to understand this verse. You get an idea of it by looking at 1 Thess 5:3 in some other translations:

• NLT: When people are saying, “Everything is peaceful and secure,” then disaster will fall on them as suddenly as a pregnant woman’s labor pains begin. And there will be no escape.
• ESV: While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
• NET: Now when they are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction comes on them, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will surely not escape.

I think we sometimes get this impression that the final generation of the last days will see almost constant wars and rumors of wars in various places in the world, with very few days of real peace. But then, we seem to figure, that the UN or some political institution or coalition of governments will, for some reason, cry out something to the effect of "Peace and Security!" as if they would like some attention for have finally been instrumental at creating a few weeks of peace amidst the near daily wars around the world. 

But it seems just as likely that the actual meaning, or even the actual translation of the verse should be closer to:

• While some people are talking about how everything seems to be peaceful and secure, they will find themselves undergoing sudden disaster, just as unexpectedly as the beginning of a pregnant woman's labor pains. And they won't be able to escape.

This is not necessarily a quotation of what they will be saying out loud anywhere. The expression is just one symbolic way of telling us what some people will no doubt be saying and thinking just before the time when Jehovah's judgment day comes upon them just as surprisingly as a thief in the night could come upon them. In context, this is what it seems to be saying. It's about the "PAROUSIA," which is sometimes called the "Day of the Lord" or the "Day of Jehovah." In context, it's about WHAT to expect about the PAROUSIA (presence) and WHEN to expect the PAROUSIA (presence):

• (1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:5) . . .For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence [PAROUSIA] of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death [before the PAROUSIA]; 16 because [AT THE PAROUSIA] the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward [or, THEN] we the living who are surviving will, together with them [or Greek, AT THE SAME TIME], be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord. 18 So keep comforting one another with these words. 5:1 Now as for the times and the seasons [of the PAROUSIA], brothers, you need nothing to be written to you. 2 For you yourselves know very well that Jehovah’s day [the PAROUSIA] is coming exactly as a thief in the night. 3 Whenever it is that they are saying, “Peace and security!” then sudden destruction is to be instantly on them, just like birth pains on a pregnant woman, and they will by no means escape. 4 But you, brothers, you are not in darkness, so that the day should overtake you as it would thieves, 5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We belong neither to night nor to darkness.

Granted, this isn't the way we currently understand it officially, but it fits all the other scriptures just as well. The expression about saying there is peace and security is a parallel to the idea that the Parousia will come as a thief in the night. It will be surprising, and even painful and disastrous. There will be no way to predict it (by pointing out increasing wars and earthquakes and disasters, for example). Therefore Paul had nothing to say to them about the timing of the Parousia (the times and seasons) -- 1 Thess 5:1. 

This matches the idea that Jesus gave when he said that people would be going on about their daily routines, two men in a field, two women at a grinding mill, eating and drinking, men marrying and women being given in marriage just as they were in Noah's day. Until suddenly the judgment event (parousia) came upon them as if without any warning.

Peter was saying the same thing when he said that people would ridicule the belief that the Parousia was coming, because things seemed to be going on as they always had been. Peter didn't say that the answer would be that the Parousia was really there all along but just invisible. Instead Peter said:

• (2 Peter 3:5-7) 5 For they deliberately ignore this fact, that long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God; 6 and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water. 7 But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people.

In other words, they are ignoring the fact that just like in Noah's generation, people also likely ridiculed the fact that there was no evidence of an imminent judgment day, yet that judgment event (parousia) came upon them as quickly as Jehovah released the waters upon them. In the same way the current heavens and earth will exist as they are being kept just as they now exist UNTIL THE DAY OF JUDGMENT (until the Parousia).

I know that a few of us have probably "snuck" a listen or two to the televangelists and radio preachers who so often ask (beg) for money. This doesn't bother me as much as those who try to ask for money in more subtle ways like the way they comment on a scripture and repeatedly throw in a phrase like "showing our appreciation for Him by giving to Him in every way possible."

Even more irritating are prayers that are supposed to be to God, but really just continue to preach and obliquely request money through similar ruses: "Oh God, I just know that everyone who can hear this prayer today through this broadcast is ready and willing to show their appreciation for you by giving, in every way possible."

So I kind of cringe when I hear a song (or prayer) to Jehovah that gives the impression that we are bragging to Jehovah about how much money and time we are giving to the building of Kingdom Halls and Assembly Halls. 

• "Jehovah . . . from your own hand, we've given all that we offer you . . . . we are grateful . . . you knew what we wanted . . . . So we offer the best of our time and possessions."

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with these words. I'm as happy as anyone to give to the ministry in every way possible. It's just that I'm sensitive to the way that others might take some of our songs and see a kind of solicitation in them, in the same way that I have seen it in televangelists. The very song makes me start wondering if we are trying to emphasize "Temple" giving rather than "people" giving.

I start thinking of what it means that we walk by faith not by sight, when I hear a song that says: "For you’ve made our hope reality With this place." And when it says: ". . . But your spirit can here remain. Adorning this center of worship are people who walk in your light." it also reminds me of:

• (John 4:21-24) . . . the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. . . . 23 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshippers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for indeed, the Father is looking for ones like these to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.

Of course, this doesn't mean that any of the words are wrong. We can worship in spirit and truth inside a physical place just as we can worship in spirit and truth when we are at home or at work or on vacation. Having a physical place is wonderful, but emphasis on one as "making our hope reality" or "what we wanted" can reach a point where we begin walking by sight, not by faith.

1 hour ago, Anna said:

But Jesus did have a specific period of time in mind when he spoke of the first fulfillment didn't he? Should we not expect a specific period of time for the second fulfillment also?

I don't see how we would ever know when such a new period of time started. As far as we can tell it started immediately after the tribulation in those days. (i.e., immediately after the tribulation on Jerusalem and its final parousia/synteleia in 70 C.E.)

22 minutes ago, Shiwiii said:

The answer to your question is......42

True, but not about the people in the picture. It was true of the number of generations in Matthew chapter 1.

2 hours ago, Anna said:

 All the generations, then, from Abraham until David were 14 generations; from David until the deportation to Babylon, 14 generations; from the deportation to Babylon until the Christ, 14 generations". This is counting each person's lifetime as a generation

14+14+14=42

(Unless these three people are galaxy hitchhikers.)

37 minutes ago, Anna said:

The people of this 20th-century generation living since 1914 have experienced these many terrifying events concurrently and in concentrated measure—international wars, great earthquakes, terrible pestilences, widespread famine, persecution of Christians, and other conditions that Jesus outlined" (in Matthew mark and Luke).

Of course, Jesus never said anything about these things happening either in greater, more terrifying, or more "concentrated measure." So even if earthquakes, for example, really had started to happen in "concentrated measure" in 1914 (they didn't!) this would still have nothing to do with the sign of Matthew 24. All Jesus said was that great earthquakes, for example, would happen and therefore not to be misled by them, because these are not signs that the end is imminent. ("Do not be misled . . . the end is not yet!").

Of course, what you are talking about would still be the common reasoning, even if we somehow found a way to restart the generation with the start of the Governing Body around 1972, or the apostasy in 1980, or AIDS, or cart witnessing, or the re-assignment of the Governing Body as "guardians of doctrine" around 2000, or even some brand new unexpected event in 2018.

So I brought up the point about the sign in Matthew 24 to propose that we would still be wrong to try to find new reasons to claim that earthquakes and wars were somehow more "concentrated" after a new starting date -- even if they WERE!

23 hours ago, Gone Fishing said:

My question was addressed to the latter group and I was interested not in their criticisms, but in their alternative suggestions.

I think I've presented the following alternative suggestion before (a couple of times):

It makes sense that when Jesus refers to "all these things" he is referring to the same "all these things" that the disciples asked him about:

• (Mark 13:4) 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

In context, of course, "all these things" referred to the judgment on Jerusalem and therefore the toppling of the Temple buildings.

• (Mark 13:1-4) As he was going out of the temple, one of his disciples said to him: “Teacher, see! what wonderful stones and buildings!” 2 However, Jesus said to him: “Do you see these great buildings? By no means will a stone be left here upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 3 As he was sitting on the Mount of Olives with the temple in view, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked him privately: 4 “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign when all these things are to come to a conclusion?”

Since the word "synteleia" can refer to a final destruction and the word "parousia" can refer to a final judgment event, the disciples no doubt thought that these events were part of the final parousia/synteleia on the whole world. After all, Jerusalem represented the whole world to them. Therefore, Jesus' words to them started out "Do not be misled." or "Look out that nobody misleads you." For you are going to see a lot of things in this generation that you might think will be a sign of that final end, but remember that all these things are going to take place. A lot of things might fool you into thinking you are seeing that final sign. You will go through a lot of trials and tribulations. But don't be misled. The final end cannot happen until AFTER the only sign, which is what you will see come upon Jerusalem.

Jesus' prophecy about Jerusalem, of course, also contains a lot of good counsel about how easy it would be to also be fooled into thinking that this or that is a sign for the final parousia too. It's also easy for us to be fooled into thinking that wars, and earthquakes, and famines are a "sign" of the final parousia, when really we know that, even though all these things will take place, people will also be talking about peace and security right up to the end. People will be eating and drinking and marrying and going on with their lives right up to the end. People will be ridiculing the fact that all things are still going on just like they have been from the beginning, right up until the final end.