Anna

Thank you for calling me good Tom. I have not listened to Br. Splanes talk yet, we were away and did not get to that part yet. Just getting around to watching the first part of the Daniel drama. But I have heard what it's about since when we got back home we joined our Saturday FS group as usual, this time for a review of the Saturday afternoon session. My hubby and I sat there like two numpties, since we had nothing to say. I did try and bluff though by looking down as if at my notes, lol. But I don't think anyone was fooled because usually we answer several times. Anyway, I look forward to listening to the talk, no doubt accompanied by accusatory sideways glances from my husband. I was thinking about you during the FS discussion, wondering what Tom thought of the talk....

I don't think @Pudgy point was whether Paul had a dog or not. His point was that with all that Paul went through, and in such a short period of time, could be agenda driven, just like if you liked the idea of him being accompanied by a dog, (since Pudgy is a dog) you may be able to insert that in there somewhere....and even go around the fact that to the Jews dogs were unclean.... It's like trying to envisage 8 million people or so trying to clean up the earth after Armageddon.... It is obvious that supernatural help will be necessary. Perhaps Paul had supernatural help?

He asked all his followers to pray for it. Yes, of course, my bad. I should have been more specific; he had been faithful until death, and that is what qualified him to receive all authority as king. Just like when the anointed die faithful, when they are resurrected they receive the crown of life.

Doesn't make sense to me either, this is why I began wondering about how these various scriptures regarding Jesus' kingship could be explained as a whole. I got to thinking about the main purpose of God's kingdom, (as opposed to the other administrations) the one Jesus asked us to pray for, the one that would be the tool to reconcile all things to God, the one that was indirectly referred to in the garden of Eden (when Jehovah said Satan would be bruised in the head) as the solution for putting right what Adam made wrong. There is no denying that the scriptures say that all things were subjected to Jesus as King when he returned to heaven. But for Jesus to ask his followers to pray for this particular kingdom, God's Kingdom, I think that would make no sense if it already existed since 33CE. True, we were asked to pray for his will to be done on earth as in heaven, so the kingdom could be said to have already been existing, just not exercising dominion over the earth yet, but to me it seems to fit better that it came into existence at the harvest time, since that was one of the purposes of God's Kingdom....to gather the things on the earth. Of course it fits our JW history very well, with the "flashes of truth" "rattling of the bones" etc. (And dare I say it, with WW1....1914) Revelation also talks about the birth of the Kingdom (God's Kingdom). Something that occurred at a point in history, with Jesus becoming king of that kingdom. I don't see that Revelation has to necessarily be talking about it happening in the 1st century.... Yes I have heard that too. So there is another type of kingdom.... Lol. I am not sure if @JW Insideraddressed it, if not, I hope he does!

You did want to know what WT had to say about the topic. I see there have been quite a number of contributions since you asked this question, I have not read most of them yet as I just didn't have time, and I just now had a few moments to reply. This is not just a reply to you but in general. So here goes. The WT doesn't deny that Jesus was king after his resurrection, since he had proved faithful to the end. When he told the pharisees that the kingdom was in their midst, he was talking about himself as he was from the royal lineage of king David, psalms talks about the greater David. Jesus was also anointed at his baptism, but any of that, his anointing and his being king, could have been made obsolete had he been unfaithful. It is after his death that he became the deserved immortal king. Now, when it comes to him being enthroned in 1914, the WT is looking at it this way I think: It all has to do with the last days. Jesus said he would be with his disciples until the end. So WT understand that to mean that Jesus was their King, ruling over them, but not yet king over God's kingdom as they believe that God's Kingdom did not get established until 1914 (the last days). So really, one needs to figure out when the last days began. Did they begin in the 1st century or much later. JWI went over all this in a lot of detail somewhere.. There are scriptures which definitely indicate that Jesus was king when on earth and was given dominion over everything once back in heaven, as the Aid book says. How I am understanding this is; that Jesus being king while on earth and while in heaven is different from being king of God's kingdom. God's kingdom is a special administration for the purpose of governing the Christian congregation and to do all the things that this Kingdom is promising to do i.e. get rid of wickedness and restore paradise earth. Also, under this administration the dead will be brought back to life and God's will, will be done on earth as it is in heaven. This multiple king idea can be compared to a king being king over more than one country simultaneously. For example Cyrus the great was King of Anshan, King of Persia, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad. So I think in a similar way, Jesus was king "of the Jews" while on earth, then King of heaven after his resurrection, and then in the last days when the kingdom called "God's kingdom" is established, he became the king of that kingdom, i.e the chief ruler and administrator of that government/kingdom. This is how I can reconcile all the different scripturest that talk about Jesus as king after his baptism while still on earth, then becoming king on returning to heaven, and then becoming king during the last days (1914). Same king, three different administrations.

For me, the worst thing is when I type a long and really clever response on my phone and I touch the back erase button a bit too long and it erases everything. I noticed the undo button is gone on the website....so I have to write the whole darn thing again, but often I just don't bother..... This is one reason why I hate doing this on the phone.

This is what the Aid book has to say: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200012397?q=jesus+baptism&p=par The outpouring of holy spirit at the time of Jesus’ baptism marked the time of his becoming in actual fact the Messiah, or Christ, God’s Anointed One (the use of this title by angels when announcing his birth evidently being in a prophetic sense; Luke 2:9-11; note also verses 25, 26). For six months John had been ‘preparing the way’ for the “saving means of God.” (Luke 3:1-6) Jesus, now “about thirty years old,” was baptized over John’s initial objections, voiced because John till then had been baptizing only repentant sinners. (Matt. 3:1, 6, 13-17; Luke 3:21-23) Jesus, however, was sinless; hence his baptism testified instead to his presenting himself to do his Father’s will. (Compare Hebrews 10:5-9; see BAPTISM [Jesus’ Baptism in Water].) After Jesus had ‘come up from the water,’ and while he was praying, “he saw the heavens being parted” and God’s spirit descended upon Jesus in bodily shape like a dove, and Jehovah’s voice was heard from heaven, saying: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”—Matt. 3:16, 17; Mark 1:9-11; Luke 3:21, 22. God’s spirit poured out upon Jesus doubtless illuminated his mind on many points. His own expressions thereafter, and particularly the intimate prayer to his Father on Passover night, 33 C.E., show that Jesus recalled his prehuman existence and the things he had heard from his Father and the things he had seen his Father do, as well as the glory that he himself had enjoyed in the heavens. (John 6:46; 7:28, 29; 8:26, 28, 38; 14:2; 17:5) It may well have been that the memory of these things was restored to him at the time of his baptism and anointing. Jesus’ anointing appointed and commissioned him to carry out his ministry of preaching and teaching (Luke 4:16-21), and to serve as God’s Prophet. (Acts 3:22-26) But, over and above this, it appointed and commissioned him as Jehovah’s promised King, the heir to David’s throne (Luke 1:32, 33, 69; Heb. 1:8, 9), and to an everlasting kingdom. For that reason he could later tell Pharisees: “The kingdom of God is in your midst.” (Luke 17:20, 21) Similarly, Jesus was anointed to act as God’s High Priest, not as a descendant of Aaron, but after the likeness of King-Priest Melchizedek.—Heb. 5:1, 4-10; 7:11-17. Jesus had been God’s Son from the time of his birth, even as the perfect Adam had been “the son of God.” (Luke 3:38; 1:35) The angels had identified Jesus as God’s Son from birth onward. So, when, after Jesus’ baptism, his Father’s voice was heard saying, “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you” (Mark 1:11), it seems reasonable that this declaration accompanying the anointing flow of God’s spirit was more than just an acknowledgment of Jesus’ identity. The evidence is that Jesus was then begotten or brought forth by God as his spiritual Son, “born again,” as it were, with the right to receive life once more as a spirit Son of God in the heavens.—Compare John 3:3-6; 6:51; 10:17, 18; see BAPTISM (Baptism into Christ Jesus and into His Death); ONLY-BEGOTTEN.

So then did Satan think Jehovah evolved also?

I think that we are all adults here and it is not the Librarians duty to protect anyone. No one is master over our faith except we ourselves. Is this the devils platform....or is it a platform for ones to state their opinions, and/or facts (which are up to us to verify). It would be sad if we were swayed by someone's mere opinions. It would be sad if we were swayed by someone stating something as truth or facts even before we checked whether what they were sayin was indeed true. I feel this platform gives me opportunity to keep an open mind, not be gullible, be more discerning and actually make the truth my own. I don't understand why you say these things about JWI, I don't seem to see anything about him being sly. As far as I know he has always been open about his beliefs, and always admitted that he could be wrong (all humans can be wrong). But it shouldn't matter to us what JWI thinks, or anyone else for that matter because in the end we are all accountable to God individually. If we are going to allow ourselves to be swayed by someone else's thinking besides God's, then it means we haven't learned much from the Bible. This forum is the least of my worries, honestly. But I accept you feel differently about it....

Most of the time I don't read it, and the rest of the time I just skim over it. It's just the same old I've heard a hundred times before......

I haven't blocked you. I posted the core beliefs HERE But I will list them here too, since this a relevant topic here. God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.—Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17. Bible. We recognize the Bible as God’s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament.” Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses built “their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.” * While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally.—Revelation 1:1. Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28. The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God’s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14. Jesus is the King of God’s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914.—Revelation 11:15. Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person’s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned—it comes through “the undeserved kindness of God.”—Galatians 2:16, 21. Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people—144,000—will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom.—Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3. Earth. God created the earth to be mankind’s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Psalm 37:11, 34. Evil and suffering. These began when one of God’s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called “Satan” and “Devil,” persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever. Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment. God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God’s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection.—Revelation 20:14, 15. Family. We adhere to God’s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed.—Ephesians 5:22–6:1. Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following: Praying to God.—Philippians 4:6. Reading and studying the Bible.—Psalm 1:1-3. Meditating on what we learn from the Bible.—Psalm 77:12. Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage fellow Witnesses and others.—Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25. Preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.”—Matthew 24:14. Helping those in need.—James 2:14-17. Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work.—Psalm 127:1. Sharing in disaster relief.—Acts 11:27-30. Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations. The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.—Matthew 24:45. Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience.—Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14. Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God’s laws.—Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29. Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” He also said that Christians “are no part of the world.” (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to “work what is good toward all,” yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters.—Romans 14:12. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

I will answer for Tom: (Notice, no overlapping generation there 😀) God. We worship the one true and Almighty God, the Creator, whose name is Jehovah. (Psalm 83:18; Revelation 4:11) He is the God of Abraham, Moses, and Jesus.—Exodus 3:6; 32:11; John 20:17. Bible. We recognize the Bible as God’s inspired message to humans. (John 17:17; 2 Timothy 3:16) We base our beliefs on all 66 of its books, which include both the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament.” Professor Jason D. BeDuhn aptly described it when he wrote that Jehovah’s Witnesses built “their system of belief and practice from the raw material of the Bible without predetermining what was to be found there.” * While we accept the entire Bible, we are not fundamentalists. We recognize that parts of the Bible are written in figurative or symbolic language and are not to be understood literally.—Revelation 1:1. Jesus. We follow the teachings and example of Jesus Christ and honor him as our Savior and as the Son of God. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 5:31) Thus, we are Christians. (Acts 11:26) However, we have learned from the Bible that Jesus is not Almighty God and that there is no Scriptural basis for the Trinity doctrine.—John 14:28. The Kingdom of God. This is a real government in heaven, not a condition in the hearts of Christians. It will replace human governments and accomplish God’s purpose for the earth. (Daniel 2:44; Matthew 6:9, 10) It will take these actions soon, for Bible prophecy indicates that we are living in “the last days.”—2 Timothy 3:1-5; Matthew 24:3-14. Jesus is the King of God’s Kingdom in heaven. He began ruling in 1914.—Revelation 11:15. Salvation. Deliverance from sin and death is possible through the ransom sacrifice of Jesus. (Matthew 20:28; Acts 4:12) To benefit from that sacrifice, people must not only exercise faith in Jesus but also change their course of life and get baptized. (Matthew 28:19, 20; John 3:16; Acts 3:19, 20) A person’s works prove that his faith is alive. (James 2:24, 26) However, salvation cannot be earned—it comes through “the undeserved kindness of God.”—Galatians 2:16, 21. Heaven. Jehovah God, Jesus Christ, and the faithful angels reside in the spirit realm. * (Psalm 103:19-21; Acts 7:55) A relatively small number of people—144,000—will be resurrected to life in heaven to rule with Jesus in the Kingdom.—Daniel 7:27; 2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 5:9, 10; 14:1, 3. Earth. God created the earth to be mankind’s eternal home. (Psalm 104:5; 115:16; Ecclesiastes 1:4) God will bless obedient people with perfect health and everlasting life in an earthly paradise.—Psalm 37:11, 34. Evil and suffering. These began when one of God’s angels rebelled. (John 8:44) This angel, who after his rebellion was called “Satan” and “Devil,” persuaded the first human couple to join him, and the consequences have been disastrous for their descendants. (Genesis 3:1-6; Romans 5:12) In order to settle the moral issues raised by Satan, God has allowed evil and suffering, but He will not permit them to continue forever. Death. People who die pass out of existence. (Psalm 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:5, 10) They do not suffer in a fiery hell of torment. God will bring billions back from death by means of a resurrection. (Acts 24:15) However, those who refuse to learn God’s ways after being raised to life will be destroyed forever with no hope of a resurrection.—Revelation 20:14, 15. Family. We adhere to God’s original standard of marriage as the union of one man and one woman, with sexual immorality being the only valid basis for divorce. (Matthew 19:4-9) We are convinced that the wisdom found in the Bible helps families to succeed.—Ephesians 5:22–6:1. Our worship. We do not venerate the cross or any other images. (Deuteronomy 4:15-19; 1 John 5:21) Key aspects of our worship include the following: Praying to God.—Philippians 4:6. Reading and studying the Bible.—Psalm 1:1-3. Meditating on what we learn from the Bible.—Psalm 77:12. Meeting together to pray, study the Bible, sing, express our faith, and encourage fellow Witnesses and others.—Colossians 3:16; Hebrews 10:23-25. Preaching the “good news of the Kingdom.”—Matthew 24:14. Helping those in need.—James 2:14-17. Constructing and maintaining Kingdom Halls and other facilities used to further our worldwide Bible educational work.—Psalm 127:1. Sharing in disaster relief.—Acts 11:27-30. Our organization. We are organized into congregations, each of which is overseen by a body of elders. However, the elders do not form a clergy class, and they are unsalaried. (Matthew 10:8; 23:8) We do not practice tithing, and no collections are ever taken at our meetings. (2 Corinthians 9:7) All our activities are supported by anonymous donations. The Governing Body, a small group of mature Christians who serve at our world headquarters, provides direction for Jehovah’s Witnesses worldwide.—Matthew 24:45. Our unity. We are globally united in our beliefs. (1 Corinthians 1:10) We also work hard to have no social, ethnic, racial, or class divisions. (Acts 10:34, 35; James 2:4) Our unity allows for personal choice, though. Each Witness makes decisions in harmony with his or her own Bible-trained conscience.—Romans 14:1-4; Hebrews 5:14. Our conduct. We strive to show unselfish love in all our actions. (John 13:34, 35) We avoid practices that displease God, including the misuse of blood by taking blood transfusions. (Acts 15:28, 29; Galatians 5:19-21) We are peaceful and do not participate in warfare. (Matthew 5:9; Isaiah 2:4) We respect the government where we live and obey its laws as long as these do not call on us to disobey God’s laws.—Matthew 22:21; Acts 5:29. Our relationships with others. Jesus commanded: “You must love your neighbor as yourself.” He also said that Christians “are no part of the world.” (Matthew 22:39; John 17:16) So we try to “work what is good toward all,” yet we remain strictly neutral in political affairs and avoid affiliation with other religions. (Galatians 6:10; 2 Corinthians 6:14) However, we respect the choices that others make in such matters.—Romans 14:12. https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/jehovah-witness-beliefs/

Good analogy. But if you shot yourself in the foot once, would you not be extra careful from then on so you don't shoot yourself in the foot again? I mean if you shot yourself in the foot at least three times after that.....well.....I think you would get called all kinds of names, and most probably everyone would want to take that gun from you! The Generation theory has been expounded on at least three times since that Awake article, and with similar assuredness. It's the assuredness every time that is the problem, not the revision of an opinion. I have nothing against progressive knowledge, and don't expect us to get everything right the first time around, or the second time or third.....however long it takes. Except for the fundamental truths, the rest is like a jigsaw puzzle and we are still trying to fit the pieces together, in my opinion we have not put together the whole picture yet, although many think we have. Studying the pure worship book right now reminds me a little of a silly series on Netflix called Manifest (I'm not saying the pure worship book is silly). It is quite entertaining though, and I like watching it. The characters survived a plane incident but landed 5 years later. Now some of the main characters get "callings" which are usually very vague (like a voice saying "save her" ) and they have no idea what it means. They get some really obscure clues and have to figure it out. Eventually after a series of misinterpretations they get it right by saving the right person. We are trying to interpret Ezekiels prophecy, and I don't think we will really know if we got it all right until after Armageddon. The holy spirit can keep giving us clues, but we may misinterpret them, and we have misinterpreted them in the past, we just keep moving forward, in the right direction hopefully. My main disappointment is not the mistakes, but stating as fact what are mere interpretations and opinions......

I already said that I have learned not to trust statements made in such a manner. It seems that those who write them have not learned from the past, because they write them in the same way today. Regardless of historical time frame and differing values etc. saying "we really don't know, but this is our opinion" is never out of fashion. Making bold statements as if they are 100% correct and infallible is neither wise nor discreet.....at any time.

I wonder it this is still being worked on. I am assuming it takes a lot of work to change PDF files to put them into the WOL. This is probably unrelated here, because it's doctrinal rather than technical, but I want to mention it because I was looking at this recently,and what you said above reminded me of it. Awake October 15, 1968 As we see, there are a number of rather embarrassing statements made here. We have all discussed this on this forum many times....the "certainty" of these kind of claims, and how this could quite rightly make us wary of more recent claims of "certainty". In any case, in view of this article, can anyone be blamed for being skeptical? I would love to pose this question to the members of the GB, with the attached Awake. This Awake is not even the last one that mentioned the adjusted Generation concept, there were subsequent WTs as late as 1995 (I think) that revised our understanding. (I am not even talking about the overlapping generation, which I think was first mentioned in 2008) But of course all these are available on WOL (In case anyone is interested, if you want to access pre 1970 Awakes and pre 1950 WT and many other publications not found in WOL this is s good website: https://archive.org/details/WatchtowerLibrary

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@JW Insiderthank you for all the references to quotes and photos of quotes. A lot of work there. I think you deserve to pour yourself a drink now!

Nah.....according to the last WT study it's a suit of armor

It's quite the thing now though!

They are not ordering anyone on how to dress, they merely remind them of scriptures such as: 1 Tim 2:9 and 1 Pet 3:4

Not sure I understand what you are saying is embarrassing. Is it because of course it's bad that ANYONE should suffer the bad consequences of cultish behavior, regardless whether they are members or outsiders. Is that what you mean?

Hey brother, don't be so hard on yourself! I've noticed that people in general have no time....really. I'm a prime example, I have books on my to read list (including yours) and have I read them, nope, not a single one...yet. I wanted to start a topic on here the other day, but other (more important) stuff got in the way. In fact the days run into each other so fast and before you know another week is gone. I swear time is running faster. I think if we ever get put in jail I will beg them to let me access all the books I have wanted to read....

I don’t think she's in a position to make that choice right now. But no one is going to be made to stay in paradise, they can leave whenever they want right? Maybe she will change her mind...

And here is another one! (Comma in an unusual place)

Always gives him away 😂