Anna

You are welcome!

https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/legal-resources/information/packet-jw-scripturally-based-position-child-protection/
 

I don't think you can be talking about Gerard Gertoux developing an ego and leaving the truth, because really we have absolutely no proof of that. The only thing that is evident from his own writings is that he believes Jerusalem was destroyed in 587 BCE. So I am not sure what you mean by trust. That we can not trust him because of that? As far as I am aware he has never criticized the WT and he has not advertised his research regarding that subject, in fact he has been laying pretty low, and not really wanting to talk about it with anyone.
Why is that dangerous thinking? Isn't that just stating a fact? I didn't say that we should be complacent, but I do think we should be realistic.
I think there is a danger though in promising people something that will happen in their life time, and then it not coming true. My best friend, a long time pioneer, left because she lost faith that this is the true religion because of promises that were "without a doubt true" but that never happened and that kept getting explained away. I personally feel it's a little presumptions to claim these things. Then some will say..."well, they were in it for the wrong reason, that's why they left". But what is it we are feeding in people when we put such emphasis on the imminent end? We are doing exactly that, we are encouraging serving Jehovah for the wrong reason. Not because he is a God deserving our exclusive devotion, but because of what we can get out of him very soon. I wonder, did Jesus have in mind attracting people to the Kingdom in such a way? Yes, of course we tell them to "repent" because the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near, yes it is good we are not complacent like other religions, yes it is good we keep a sense of urgency, and yes it is good to keep our hope alive and in front of us, but to make certain claims (or I should say the Slave, we just repeat what they say) which are blatantly erroneous, makes fools of others and us, and can cause people to stumble. Perhaps this is a test. How loyal are we to Jehovah "despite" man's errors. Another good friend of mine, a very zealous faithful sister, is not allowing the errors of man to slow her down, or stumble her. She  waves her hand in dismissal at the new explanation to why Armageddon hasn't come yet, aka the 'overlapping generation'. Pretty much in a similar manner as Br. Herd did in the December broadcast when talking about our "past" understanding of the generation. He seems to think we've finally got it. She thinks it's nonsense. Her motto is; when it comes it comes, in the meantime I am here to do my job. And if I die so what?  Hopefully I will be resurrected. And if not, I won't even care, will I?
When the Slave admits they've sometimes had wrong expectations, that doesn't mean we have to have those same wrong expectations too, does it?

Hmmmm......I beg to differ. How about we both ask a number of friends a simple question at the KH this Sunday or in a field service group: "do you know how to explain why we believe 1914 and 607?"
In any case, it looks like you are trying to evade the question by implying that understanding how we come to 1914 (and 607) requires too much time and that one has better things to do (which actually confirms what I said, that most don't really know) and also you are detracting from the question by implying that those who do this, are really just trying to discredit the Slave and score points for themselves on a discussion forum.
I can't say anything about what was said under another heading, but I do know that the question that arose a number of times was if WT accepts 537, then why does it not accept 587, if both dates are verifiable by the same astronomical/historical l sources.
I am not here to score points either, (and if anyone is, well then they are to be pitied because what real value does collecting points from complete strangers who have no impact on your real, outside the internet, life have?). I am not trying to prove the Slave are deceivers,  but how would you explain to someone what I posted earlier but you never commented on. It was in answer to your comment:  " Faith is important - but Jehovah knew that us simple folks - we always need small steps to look forward to and he lovingly gave it to us.... and what is more.. the proof of the pudding is the eating....... world events since 1914 has proven that it is a 'reality'...... We will soon be seeing the last prophecies regarding Babylon the great, the call to peace and security...and the 8th king in action.... as a matter of fact - religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak...."  And my reply was:
"BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might)".
Religions seem to be riding the beast as we speak, but there have been many signs before that, that actually turned out NOT to be the sign
To be fair, this topic here "607 B.C.E. - Is it Biblically Supported" really does call for secular,/scholarly knowledge because it is an academic subject.  No matter how noble feelings are, they still have no impact on whether something is true or false. And I cannot somehow connect a date with love for Jehovah, especially if there is a possibility that the date could be completely erroneous.
I think those people have been paying attention to the signs on the ground. Probably since they first learned about them.
Indeed, the Amaharets.  And it is a consolation to me that even if we are totally wrong about Christ's enthronement in 1914 and it takes another 2000 years for Armageddon to come, surely Jehovah will look upon us that we, the Amaharets, did our best to follow in the footsteps of Christ, by preaching the Kingdom and by living our life in harmony with God's moral standards. Surely Jehovah will recognize that the majority of Christ's sheep are unable to verify or understand everything the Bible, or what the Slave presents, like the Beoreans were able to. I can't imagine a missionary in Peru being overly concerned about Neo Babylonian chronology. Surely it is sufficient that these ones have verified the fundamental truths. And those who desire and are able to delve deeper into the academic side of this particular issue, and in all honesty find discrepancies with 607, surely they will not be disqualified? Thankfully, Jehovah is the reader of hearts. However, if those who have taken upon themselves the responsibility to disseminate spiritual food to the Amaharets, and they feed falsehood, they will be judged severely, for obvious reasons. So really, we have nothing to be worried about. For the Amaharets and those "academics/scholars" who are pure in heart and motive it's a win win situation isn’t it?


 

No, I actually meant friends in the truth.
I understand, but maybe you did not read my other post to you* where I mention that I haven't seen you presenting any valid counter arguments which could convince an unbiased observer to side with your explanation. What I said was that your arguments would not stand up in trial.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates (not the fruit ) and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
How is that? As far as I know, probably more than 90% of the friends (Jehovah's Witnesses) do not understand 1914, or to be more specific, do not understand how we arrive at 1914, and don't even try.
Yes. Us simple folks need numbers. Numbers are nice. People like numbers and dates. They help to tangibly anchor ideas or situations in the stream of time. Without dates it's just not the same. Try reading a biography or a report without them. And of course not to mention the fact that dates are essential for establishing time periods in history and a billion other things. Jehovah is the arbiter of time, and is the great timekeeper. BUT that does not mean the dates and numbers and lengths of periods we simple folks put together are always correct are they? What has happened to the millions that were not supposed to die? (they did). What has happened to the generation that was not supposed to pass away? (they have, practically) What has happened to the children that were not supposed to even finish school in this system? (they did, and they have children of their own). What has happened to the world that can't get any worse? (it did, and still might) As you say, the proof is in the pudding.
So that is why, when the rubber hits the road, we need to have faith in Jehovah, not man.
(*I wish the posts were numbered so that they could be easily referenced @admin @The Librarian)

Ok. So how is what you said previously even relevant then? And does it make sense that something that is a complex subject, frequented only by a minority, should play such a decisive role by which all are judged either favorably or unfavorably as @Arauna seems to point out.
And by the way what's wrong with the French brother Gerard Gertoux, is he not competent in chronology?
 

I think you might be coming to rash conclusions when you say those trying to disprove 1914 are doing so only to discredit the Slave. I am not saying no one does that, but I feel that those who honestly try to understand WT dates, and then find these dates faulty, do it the other way around. They begin to distrust the Slave on the evidence of their findings. Please don't attack me for saying this as I myself have not found proof for 607 or 587 either way. I am in a completely privileged neutral zone. I am neither for nor against. One thing I have noticed though, and excuse me if I am wrong,  (I may have missed your other posts), but it seems you have not presented any solid counter argument  against  587, only your feelings in that it's like "running after fluff", and criticism and motives of those who present arguments against 607. What you say would not stand up in a trial at all.  It's like the opposition is talking about apples and you are talking about oranges. The opposition is talking about dates and numbers, and you are talking about feelings and motives and evidence on the ground....
I don't think anyone is arguing with you on this at all.
What I find fascinating, and puzzling at the same time though, is how some friends will immediately class others as defectors if they do not believe in 607 or 1914. To give an example, on another forum, one poster made the comment that we should be wary of this one particular JW scholar because he does not support 607. Why it is so imperative to you and others, that in order to belong to this NATION, one has to believe in some specific date? In practical terms, what on earth is the saving attribute of a date? Yes, I know it was supposed to be the establishment of God's kingdom, which is the instrument by which all things will be reconciled to God, but come on, are we to be SO fixated on a date where believing in it or not is the difference between being saved or damned? God's kingdom will accomplish all those things regardless of the date it is established, won't it? As was pointed out quite clearly in the 2017 convention video, we are dedicated to Jehovah God, not a date! Surely a date has no baring on your sentiments above about the NATION ?

I think that if beginning today, the Slave never mentioned the dates 607 or 1914  again, but merely the destruction of Jerusalem, and  God's Kingdom, no one would be upset and think we have gone apostate. Probably no one but a few who are keyed in, and those at Bethel, would even notice. In fact, the new generation of Witnesses as I have observed does not even believe Armageddon will come any time soon. (I have heard some young ones speculate around 50 years). And the generation who believed their children would not grow up in this system, but who have grand children now, have reconciled themselves with the possibility that they will die before Armageddon comes. I think this is good. Because remember, we serve Jehovah, not a date. Abraham never saw the complete fulfillment of the promise made to him either, what makes us think we have to? Don't get me wrong, it would be nice of course, but I refuse to get anxious  for a date, or even an approximate time period. You have probably seen me quote a father talking to his daughter saying "plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your lifetime but lead your life as if it will come tomorrow". The father is long dead, and the daughter possibly too, as she was born in 1923. You can read her life story in  w04 12.1 Trusting in Jehovah’s Loving Care.
In any case, all this talk about the gentile times calculations are not something Russell came up with. The originator of these calculations was William Miller of the second Adventists. (of course there were others even before him, but Russell associated with Miller). So if we go and dig down to the grass roots, to find the beginning of this idea,  really, we have William Miller to thank for it. But I'm not quite comfortable with that thought. I'm not comfortable with the thought that 1914 evolved from one of the branches of Christendom!
http://www.readex.com/blog/calculating-second-coming-19th-century-america-selected-items-american-pamphlets-1820-1922

I am sure you will agree that because the Bible gives us some numbers and a chronology, it has forever been the quest of believing mankind since the death of Christ, to crack the code of His promised second coming. Especially with the beginning of Adventist movements folks have been trying to figure out the key to WHEN. Russell and his associates were also interested in when. As you probably know, Russell even used the Pyramids to try to calculate Christ's second coming. So the whole period of the Second Awakening revival was focused on figuring all this out. And from that fertile ground came OUR "magical" dates. In fact if you look,  there have been and are "magical" dates floating around all the time:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Predictions_and_claims_for_the_Second_Coming_of_Christ
 
 
 

So are you saying trying to figure out dates for Bible chronology is a myopic quest? If you are, I tend to agree with you wholeheartedly. Focusing on the bigger picture makes all else pale into insignificance. If you have read any of my posts you will know I do not like to get overly concerned with numbers and dates, I just find it curious when the Slave does so. My motto is: I am dedicated to Jehovah, not a date. However, when someone quotes specific numbers and dates at me, and does this consistently year after year....for years, calling them fact, then I like to know where those numbers and dates come from. That's all.
I don't quite know what you mean by that. Who do you mean by "only ones" and what do you mean by "know"?

Exactly!
This is why I will take my cue from the 2017 convention video and say "I am dedicated to Jehovah, not a date".

I would say it is comforting to know that our enduring FAITHFUL till the end (whether that be Armageddon or death in old age or sickness) means we are guaranteed everlasting life. Why should we care about an overlapping generation? It is merely speculative, whereas on the other hand the promise of a bright future (whether that be through surviving Armageddon or being resurrected) isn't. It is a clear Biblical teaching easy to understand. The generation that Jesus spoke about was a literal generation in Jesus's day, for our day, the meaning is ambiguous (obviously).

Yes of course, I worded it wrong, I was referring to what Jesus said to the little flock. They will of course not only gain everlasting life but immortality, straight after they are transformed. We will have to wait until after the 1000 years, and then we will still not be immortal, but will have everlasting life.,,,
.I have no interest because it does not seem significant to me. We live or die for Jehovah, regardless of when the end comes.
It wouldn't be the first time, would it? (1914, 1925, 1975)
I will quote the view of one of the Governing Body (Sam Herd) "we are just looking, we are just learning, we are just touching things....."   in other words with their own admission the GB have incomplete knowledge, are fallible and do err. With this being the case, I feel there is nothing wrong with a "wait and see attitude" rather that taking everything they say as being infallible and making it a basis for how I live my life, whether I have a sense of urgency or not. We should live our life as if  Armageddon was to come tomorrow, regardless of whether someone says so or not. The Bible says so. It says we should be ready. "Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace" (2 Peter 3:14). No generation explanation needed there. Or do you, Tom, need a generation time limit as an incentive?  It is understandable that some who are aging or sick or suffering in some way cannot wait for the end to come soon. And then there are others who have family members that are not in yet, and they wish for more time.....It is Jehovah's time table and we can speculate generation or no generation all we like but it will come when he sees fit. The Bible says so.

So we should think like the scribes?

What we have is nothing of the sort.
It's a good thing you didn't write any of the Bible. What a dull book it would be.
I guess they were about to learn a thing or two, weren't they? Not only can God do it - his Son can also.

Matt 28:18: "All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth....
John 5:22: "For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,..."
Hi Cos. See you are still battling on. These scriptures don't really need exposition do they?
By the way, I see you are referenced as female on the forum somewhere. Is that a fact or a misunderstanding? 

I just noticed that I said this without a proper qualification. Most of us know that there is no reward for good works, such as preaching, pioneering, giving excellent talks, going to Bethel, serving as a missionary, ministerial servant, or elder, or Governing Body member, etc. Jehovah rewards his servants, not for the good they do, but for the proper loving motivation in the heart.
But, true proper motivation will result in actions. If we truly love God (faith) and our neighbor we cannot help but act upon that love. We will show our fellow human neighbors and brothers mercy, patience, love, empathy, kindness -- all fruits (outgrowths) of the proper spirit in our hearts. To the extent possible in our own circumstances, that automatically translates to action (good works). True faith cannot exist, therefore, without good actions that follow. Not everyone can do the same amount however (the widow's "mite," workers who arrive at the 11th hour, etc.). But if those who put in more work are jealous or disturbed by the lesser work others have done, then they don't understand that it was not the work that was rewarded, but the proper motivation. They don't understand what this means:
"I want mercy, not sacrifice"

For anyone stumbling across this sad little cameo, the embroidery of text, both in the youtube and forum posting creates puzzlement. The video is about the family relationship problems that some elderly folk brought on themselves by dissassociating themselves from the Jehovah's Witnesses.
Their issue seems to be around their regret over the estrangement this created in their relationship with their granddaughter.
It is difficult to see a relevant connection with the post title "Why does the governing body lie?" or the reference to issues involving a disfellowshipped husband and his Witness family.

AllenSmith:
Ever heard of the concept of an "emotional bank account"?
It goes something like this:
You cannot just walk up to someone in a casual setting and say "Who are you?
You might go up and say " Hi!, My name is Allen Smith, and I am from such-and-such congregation, and I am in town visiting relatives ...
That is the deposit in the "emotional bank account".
You now have something you can withdraw from that "emotional Bank account".
Now, you  can ask someone's name, because they have information on you that is meaningful.
"May I ask you name?" (That is the "withdrawal".)
Try it sometime.
They are not going to use that information to target North Korean missiles to your house, or send the Mafia by to kneecap you.
I go by my real full name, and tell many tales on myself, many disparaging and personal ... No. 1, because it doesn't really matter ... I will be quite dead too soon, the Universe will not even notice, and No. 2,  sans actual missile attack, anywhere around me is a "safe space".
This is not hand to hand combat with bayonets ... this is conversation via photons on a monitor ... NO MORE.
We can battle to the death in the Arena of Ideas ... sigh if we win or lose ... get up from our chairs, and go have dinner.
Lighten up.
You will live a lot longer, and be a LOT happier.
 
 

@AllenSmith what were you trying to say with the Spartacus clip? Have you seen the movie?

@TrueTomHarley  you were Vic Vomidog too?? You got me fooled there,  I thought he was an evil apostate 

@AllenSmith what were you trying to say with the Spartacus clip? Have you seen the movie?

This is really awful. I didn't want to just ignore this. It's all the more tragic for you, it evidently being so close to home, and so recent. I don't want to trivialize it by mixing the topic of drug addiction into a conversation about child abuse statistics, but you already know that this is a huge problem in parts of the world, and we can be thankful for the protections among Jehovah's people that leave us relatively immune from so many of such problems.  
I see your point, and in spite of the interpretation people have imputed onto this conversation, I don't agree that our problem with child abuse is nearly as bad as is generally found on the outside. I have only disagreed with using a flawed set of numbers and apple-and-orange ratio comparisons to make the claim. And I am concerned that after being associated (in several major legal systems) with a flawed process, we might appear to be defending the flawed process. Our numbers may actually be 10 times better, or 6 times better, but we attract unnecessary negative attention by appearing to defend a process that has been used in the way it has, especially in our own organization's recent history.
My wife started a Bible study with a woman, now a sister, who had a drug abuse problem, not an addiction problem. I was asked to study with this woman's brother, who did have an on-and-off drug addiction problem. He was getting treatment, but it was a long process for him and he never managed to get to a point where he thought he was ready for baptism. If he had been baptized, he might have still struggled. But I would agree with calling the organization a "lifeline" for this type of person. Learning to rely on Jehovah to help overcome major issues with wrong desires becomes a positive habit in itself. I think he had a desire to get to a point where he could feel proud of his life, feel a purpose in life, and to some extent feel that he had a social structure and network to fall back upon in time of need. Part of what held him back, he said, is that he didn't feel worthy of association with a group of people who appeared to be ready to love him as he is and take him in as a friend. It's something I've seen in the prison work, too. Even after a baptism, some prisoners don't feel worthy of associating with the class of person that Witnesses represent to them. (For cases like this, I like the experiences such as the brother on the monthly broadcast a few months back who had been a true-to-life criminal, but speaks with joy and obvious acceptance of his past, present and future.)
Even in the context of writing a book that could use a "study" or two for more credibility, I still don't see why you are looking for a specific number. The point is that we have made progress beyond most religions on most issues, but we always look to use the Bible as our guiding set of principles. Sometimes this makes us look a bit backward, but we stand on our record in dealing with all the issues that plague the world today. We don't dig our heels in to hang onto traditional ways of doing things, but we look to the Bible for the wisdom and counsel to meet all challenges, old and new.

You are wrong in your assumption. I don't think any of us had/has unrealistic expectations. JW insider described the problem that existed in the past quite accurately:
But still, that doesn't mean it was OK does it?

Just curious, how would you, as JTR, report this on jw.org? I mean give an example of what you would actually say (no puns or jokes, seriously)

Allen:
You know, they say that The English (and that would include Australians) and the Americans are separated by a common language.
such a ALU-minum in American English, and Alu-MIN-ium, in the King's English.  Or GRAY in American, and GREY, in Englandish.
From your link: "Just because you see the word “subpoena” over the word “summons” DOESN’T give it the SAME weight in POWER, in, legal context."
Of course not!
But ignore either one at your peril of wallet and/or freedom.
That is where the "rubber meets the road.
If hypothetically I pointed my gun at YOU and wiggled it and nodded to my left, chances are you would want to move to my left.
That would be to YOUR right.
In THAT case, it would be REAL important!
One of the amazing things about your posts Allen, is what you pick out and isolate that's important to you mind, leaving the herd of Elephants in the room ignored.
 

Lol. I get it, don't worry.