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Have JWs solved 90% of the child abuse problems plaguing the rest of the world?


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Under another topic which was unrelated to child abuse issues, the claim was put forward (again) that JWs may have only a tenth of the problem that others have with child abuse. As TTH put it recently:

On 3/28/2018 at 8:54 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

"Will the greater world really condemn the ones who prevented child sexual abuse ten times better than anyone else,

TTH has stated this multiple times and in various ways now, also stating that JWs have found "a solution that cuts occurrences by 90%." TTH didn't start this idea, it was in another persons post, which may have based it on some very questionable numbers that came out of the Australian Royal Commission.

I don't know if anyone can give an accurate accounting statistically, but if we are going to make such statements it's a good idea to start somewhere to see why they are being used. I will first present some numbers which appear to contradict the claim, and anyone who has anything different should, of course, join in if they think it's important to figure it out more accurately.

In past months, I reported on the outrageous numbers that have been reported against the Catholic Church institutions, including their schools, where 7% of all Catholic priests have been accused of child abuse. Of course this represents an average in various diocese and institutions, where it might run as low as 0% in some, and as high as 25% in others. Even a high percentage of Catholic nuns in one institution had been accused of child sexual abuse. The nuns had a relatively small percentage when compared to another institution where the rate of accused priests and "Brothers" reached nearly 40%. It was a Catholic institution that was set up to care for children with mental disabilities. [The term "Brothers" in this context is a title which doesn't have the generic meaning it has among JWs.]  The BBC interviewed several people who seriously stated that the Catholic Church should be charged with running a "criminal" organization.

I think it is probably obvious to all of us that such levels of child abuse among the highest levels of church institutional leaders cannot be compared with the Witnesses, where the problem is not nearly so bad. There are also issues of comparing Catholic leaders such as bishops, priests and deacons and the counting of all problems among the entire congregations of JWs, not just elders and ministerial servants ("deacons"). But this doesn't mean the problem is not bad.

I'll start throwing out some quotes I've read about what the ARC reported about JWs, the Uniting Church, and the Catholic Church. [The Uniting Church is a kind of conglomerate of Presbyterian/Methodist/Congregationalist churches in Australia.]

You may need a subscription to this Australian paper "The Australian" or an account with a university or newspapers.com to see the entire content of the article that shows up in Google as follows for MEDIA WATCH DOG Friday March 17, 2017 :

 

Quote

 

Media Watch Dog: Liberty Sanger, Centre for Western Civilisation ...

Mar 17, 2017 - The ABC and Fairfax Media – along with The Guardian and The Saturday Paper – have given extensive coverage to allegations against the Catholic Church made at the Royal Commission Into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. The ABC's Samantha Donovan and Philippa McDonald and ...

 

 

----quotation-------

Here’s some news which the ABC and Fairfax Media do not regard as fit-to-print. Over the past four decades, a child in Australia was much more likely to suffer sexual abuse at a school or institution run by the Uniting Church than at a school or institution run by the Catholic Church.

The ABC and Fairfax Media – along with The Guardian and The Saturday Paper – have given extensive coverage to allegations against the Catholic Church made at the Royal Commission Into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse. The ABC’s Samantha Donovan and Philippa McDonald and Louise Milligan along with Fairfax Media’s Rachel Browne and Joanne McCarthy have been perhaps the most outspoken of the journalists regularly reporting the Royal Commission in so far as the crimes of pedophile Catholic priests and brothers have been concerned.

The ABC and Fairfax Media gave considerable coverage to the statement by Counsel Assisting Gail Furness SC on 6 February 2017 that 4445 people alleged instances of child sexual abuse within Catholic schools or institutions up until 2015. Most media focused on the statement by Ms Furness that “7 per cent of priests were alleged perpetrators”.

However, virtually no media attention was given to Ms Furness’s subsequent clarification on 16 February 2017, with reference to the Catholic Church:

Between January 1980 and February 2015, 4,445 people alleged incidents of child sexual abuse in 4,765 claims. The vast majority of claims alleged abuse that started in the period 1950 to 1989 inclusive. The largest proportion of first alleged incidents of child sexual abuse, 29 per cent, occurred in the 1970s.

In other words, within the Catholic Church the vast majority of allegations of pedophilia were made with respect to alleged crimes in the period 1950 to 1989 with close to a third of all allegations relating to the decade of the 1970s. That is, most of the allegations relate to instances of close to four decades ago and are historical crimes.

In what was called the “Catholic Wrap”, Royal Commission chairman Justice Peter McClellan devoted 15 entire days to examining the Catholic Church. Hearings were held between 6 February 2017 and 26 February 2017.

On Friday 10 March 2017, the Royal Commission devoted only half a day each to the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Uniting Church of Australia. Yet the evidence suggests that, on a per capita basis, there were more pedophiles in each church combined than in the Catholic Church – especially in the 1990s and subsequent decades. . . .

The statistics available to the Royal Commission with respect to the Uniting Church cover the period from 1977 to the present. That is, unlike the Catholic Church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses, the allegations do not relate to a period going back to 1950.

There were 2504 instances or allegations of child sexual abuse made in the Uniting Church in the period 1977 to 2017 compared with 4445 instances in the Catholic Church covering the period 1950 to 2015. Yet the Uniting Church is about a fifth of the size of the Catholic Church. And its data covers four decades whereas the Catholic Church’s data covers over six decades. Moreover, evidence available to the Royal Commission indicates that virtually all offending by Catholic priests took place before 1990. Not so, apparently, with the Uniting Church.

On this evidence, child sexual assaults in the Uniting Church have been more prevalent than in the Catholic Church – especially in the years since 1990. This despite the fact that the Uniting Church has married male priests and female priests. There is no celibacy requirement within the Uniting Church and no sacrament of confession (in which the Royal Commission has taken a special interest concerning the Catholic Church).

Yet you would not be aware of any of this if you followed only the reporting of the Royal Commission by the ABC, Fairfax Media, The Guardian and The Saturday Paper. It seems the likes of Samantha Donovan, Philippa McDonald, Louise Milligan, Joanne McCarthy and Rachel Browne did not come back from lunch on Friday 10 February and simply missed the coverage of sexual child abuse in the Uniting Church in the four decades since 1977.

---end of quotation-----

I downloaded that Excel spreadsheet from the ARC (once posted here) that gave limited information about each of the JW cases, and should note that even cases that went back to the 1970's were evidently not there because there was any regular record-keeping by JWs going back that far. They could have been included when a case recorded decades later was found to be applicable to an instance or accusation from a much earlier date.

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This is actually a valid musing. I see the outrage regarding the child abuse issue as an evidence of one of the last sparks of morality in a dying and corrupt civilisation.  This issue has extrao

Allen, Your point should be the same as mine, and it would be a shame (literally) if it is isn't. I understand as well as anyone why you think that a knee-jerk reaction to protect the reputation of th

I love irony ! otherwise that would be an upvote. Hey! that quote is an "Elephant" AllenSmith could chew on !

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5 hours ago, JW Insider said:

Under another topic which was unrelated to child abuse issues, the claim was put forward (again) that JWs may have only a tenth of the problem that others have with child abuse. 

On 3/28/2018 at 8:54 AM, TrueTomHarley said:

Since I began frequenting this forum I have noticed that the claim that JWs are a veritible den of child abuse has been put forward (again) and (again) and (again) and (again) and (again).

Essentially identical threads dedicated to this perception have even been hosted (again) and (again) and (again)

So I have repeated a counterpoint to add a bit of perspective and balance.

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4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

That's the point isn't it JWinsider. It was people like you, JTR, Anna and others that through incorrect information out there without first understanding secular law?

Allen, Your point should be the same as mine, and it would be a shame (literally) if it is isn't. I understand as well as anyone why you think that a knee-jerk reaction to protect the reputation of the organization is so important. I've been there myself. And sometimes that reaction is correct and on-track. But there are times when justice is more important than protecting a reputation. When we put ourselves on the side of justice we are defending Jehovah's reputation, and this is better for the organization, too, in the long run. There are times when unrighteousness should be exposed. It is short-sighted to think that we are defending Jehovah's name by covering up what is bad. 

So, my point is that the problem is bad, because every instance of child abuse is bad -- even if our statistics are better than someone else's. If you don't think the problem is bad, then I don't trust that you are are doing everything you can to reduce the problem. We should advocate for children. We should advocate for justice. And we need to do more about this reputation we have earned, as an organization, for trying to hide the extent of the problem. It makes us look like we would prefer ignoring or hiding the problem rather than admit that the problem is bad.

I don't think your insult has any basis. You say that people like me threw incorrect information out there without first understanding secular law. I can't speak for what others know or don't know about secular law, but I saw no instances where your insult applied to anything I said on the subject. I don't recall anything JTR said on this subject, but I do recall several of the things Anna said, and I don't think either of us stated anything incorrect or conflicting with respect to secular law. Both of us, as I recall, discussed the value of Brother Jackson requesting a legal change with respect to a consistent requirement for reporting, in all cases, which would resolve a large portion of the inconsistencies. As I recall, we both discussed this long before you yourself mentioned that you also agree with Brother Jackson's recommendation as a resolution for many issues.

If you really think I said something incorrect, I welcome the correction. But with you it's usually just bluster, obfuscation, vagueness, and braggadocio. I hope this isn't more of the same.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

and then by condemning the Watchtower for inaction when you know full well as an ex-bethelite as you claim, the Watchtower has touched on this matter in various ways.

I don't condemn the Watchtower for inaction. I have long stated that the Watchtower Society has made many excellent changes with respect to these crimes in the past decade especially, and even some good changes to policy and procedure in the last two years. Perhaps you think you are trying to impress an audience who doesn't know any better when you make up false things about people you don't seem to want to get along with. If you have facts, that's great, but please leave aside all the acting and histrionics.

4 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Now, you want to excuse what you blatantly started by you people that you want to speculate even further by condemning the use of other religious statistics.

There are not many way to make sense of that statement of yours. The trouble seems to lie in your attempt to fit too many untruths in a single sentence without thinking clearly about the issue. To be clear I am not excusing anything. I am "blatantly" trying to get to truth of the "90% claim." If you have any facts to add, great! As you can see, you probably weren't thinking clearly at all when you said I was "condemning the use of other religious statistics." I was the one who just recommended the use of other religious statistics for comparison.

If you don't like this topic, Allen, you are free to avoid it, but please don't fill it with untruths for your own purposes.

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4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

Since I began frequenting this forum I have noticed that the claim that JWs are a veritible den of child abuse has been put forward (again) and (again) and (again) and (again) and (again).

Essentially identical threads dedicated to this perception have even been hosted (again) and (again) and (again)

I see the same thing, and it's usually overkill. It's often not limited to just wanting to have a serious discussion about process and practice and doctrinal issues. Some is out of anger at the organization, obviously, and therefore includes typical spite from ex-JWs. Some is out of the iconoclastic desire to tear down something that is essentially good but they perceive it as claiming itself to be "perfect." But there is little chance of this being discussed thoroughly among JWs in a congregational setting, or in a monthly broadcast. There is little chance that JW.ORG will ever include a comments section. So this is still about as good a place as any I know to discuss it with others who might wish to put some depth and thought into fixing it.

4 hours ago, TrueTomHarley said:

So I have repeated a counterpoint to add a bit of perspective and balance.

Perhaps it does. And perhaps your point is true.  But a scale can balance rotten fish with rotten vegetables. It would still be good to know if the counterpoint is valid.

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I have wondered why this topic has such blow back. We victims or those who commit the acts , on this forum are neither served either way. In reality, the elders, are not policemen, when they are confronted with abuse, they must have a confession from the one who,has committed the deed, the one affected should take the matter to the secular authorities. A child should have the power to be listened to by these authorities and have the one who has done this to them brought to justice. The opportunity that a child could in fact lie, is there, but there should be the ear for the child other than parents or the elders. Ones who,would have the authority to move on what the child has stated has occurred. I did in fact take it to the secular authorities after telling my parents, and he was both arrested and removed from his office. Yes, they wanted it done another way, but my father wanted him dead also. This way saved that person life and my father's. And my own sanity! I didn't go into a hole to hide. I also,did not wait on those I realized could help me.

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Child molestation occurs in many large organizations--religious, governmental, and academic--that in itself is not a red flag. When it continues unabated, that's when there's a problem.

It is clear that the JW organization has an ongoing problem with child abuse. When confronted on this issue, the org had the opportunity to make positive reforms and reevaluate its policies. Instead, the org staunchly defended the policies that have created the problems in the first place. They've used the two-witness Bible principle as a crutch for their inaction through the years--a fact they're very proud of in the JW Broadcast. There is this smugness among the JW leadership, as if Jehovah God approves of elder inaction that gives predators a free pass to continue preying on children. The ego and lack of accountability by those taking the lead is alarming. I'm not sure how they reconcile all this exposure with their own conscience. In situations like this, where proactive action is vital, there is actually a laissez-faire attitude by the org. Why? It is the moral obligation of the elders to protect the flock: not only the victim but other potential victims. This is not like other sins--this is predatory and hurts others. To drag your feet isn't an option.

The secular authorities can be an important resource to elders in investigating and uncovering abuse (a capability that the elders lack), but the org emphasizes an avoidance of police involvement as much as possible. Why is this? Why the mistrust of authorities? This is something JWs must ponder. Where are the org's priorities? Saving face or protecting their own?

The org has made itself a martyr to worldly entities that dare question their abuse policies. Their policies have created actual victims to abuse, but the org has twisted it to make itself the victim! And that's the way "in" JWs perceive these inquiries--as attacks by Satan. Has the Watchtower "addressed" this issue to its adherents as another board member suggested? No. It continues to proport itself as a spiritual paradise and ethically superior to any other organization on earth. These inquiries like the ARC are nothing of substance--nothing more than Satan's attacks on the true religion. So information is being heavily distorted by the org to its adherents--another alarming reality. Because child molestation is a huge problem in the org, and its policies play a part in it. But JWs are ignorant to this and are consequently put in a dangerous position. It is our responsibility to seek the TRUTH...if it wasn't for independent research I wouldn't have know about the ARC or Candace Conti or any of the lawsuits. We can't accept the distorted reality the org is selling.

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5 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

Meanwhile, research all my deleted POST to find the argument about incorrect information.

Can you advise me just HOW?

Without you telling me HOW ... I do not know how to research a deleted post.

... and just what "incorrect information" from deleted posts ( !!! ) am I being ordered to research?

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7 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

When something goes wrong, be grateful things are exposed in order to do what is HUMANLY possible to better a situation.

Since you mentioned me three times in your immediately preceding post, here is my third reply.

I agree with you on THAT comment AllenSmith ... if it had not been for OUTSIDE sources ... all the secular authorities ... we would know NOTHING about all that is going on concerning this issue.

Bro. Stephen Lett in a JW.ORG Video declared quite vehemently, looking straight into the camera,  that all the accusations about JW Pedophile issues and cover-ups were  " .. APOSTATE LIES !!"

.. and this was about two months before we learned from the ARC ... an arm of the Australian Government, of 1006 perpetrators in over 5,000 instances that were hidden from the Brotherhood, in secret files in various Congregations, and in secret sealed blue envelopes sent to the Australian JW Branch Offices.

In my PERSONAL experience ...  have never seen or heard, even through gossip,  about any JW pedophiles in over 50 years ... so I am inclined to believe ( somewhat ) TTH's claim that we do better than 90% of the "world" in that regard .

As much as what IS really going on burns my butt ... I am even more concerned about the institutional cover-up via THREATS of disfellowshipping ... and ACTUAL disfellowshippings, of the Brotherhood ... Brothers and Sisters in the Congregations  .... victims .... and those who wanted to go to the police, but under threat of expulsion, and actual expulsion and abandonment, did not, and were SILENCED.

In over 50 years, I have repeatedly personally seen in many, many Congregations,  and experienced myself, many similar unjust things.

This I have PERSONALLY seen, as institutionalized policy ... in actual practice.

It is our immoral capacity for institutionalized extreme CRUELTY TO EACH OTHER, in the name of righteousness ...  that boils my blood.

I am not discouraged by how I am treated by the "world". 

I can shrug that off.

I am weary to my very soul of how we,  to defend the indefensible,  we treat each other.

... and don't even get me started about the perversion of Justice in the Delaware cases of the Society's Lawyers doing everything they can to keep lawsuits from being adjudicated, ACTIVELY perverting Justice using contributed donations .... and their similar efforts in every court case I have read about, and every court transcript I have read.

Want to test this hypothesis about honesty and integrity?

Go to the JW.ORG website, where legal developments in the news concerning JWs are highlighted ... and see how much honest real legal news about THIS there is.

The last time I checked, it was ZERO

It is NOT Theocratic Loyalty to defend the indefensible.

If it had not been for OUTSIDE sources ... all the secular authorities, and others incensed by injustices ... we would know NOTHING about all that is going on concerning this issue.

...... and that's the fact, Jack.

Red Pill .... Blue Pill   250    .jpg

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12 hours ago, John Houston said:

In reality, the elders, are not policemen, when they are confronted with abuse, they must have a confession from the one who,has committed the deed, the one affected should take the matter to the secular authorities.

I understand that you yourself are a victim, and I am very sorry about this. I hope that you have been able to throw your burden upon Jehovah, and that time, prayer, positive activities, and the love of others around you has helped you heal.

It is true, that the elders are not policemen. They don't have to be, although they should continue to learn how to be better judges. 1 Corinthians 6:3 reminded especially elders in the first-century Corinthian congregation:

  • "Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! " (NIV)

But sometimes elders have been known to protect their own in the same way that policemen will often try to protect their own when one of them is caught doing something wrong. A policeman who has been on the force for 20 years has done much good over that time and fellow policemen might feel it's worth overlooking or hiding some terrible mistake or corruption. The police "organization" thinks about what it would take to replace such an experienced officer, think of all the training and money that was invested in this person. If they can get away with a cover-up, then often they will.

But the elders should be trained to focus on Jehovah's style of justice. All of us are replaceable. No one is indispensable. Elders could use more focus and training on child welfare issues. They should even be trained to recognize some of the psychological tell-tale signs of abuse. There are even patterns of denial by perpetrators that will often fool an untrained or person but which are evidences of an abuser. There are also children who falsely accuse, or who are mistaken in their perceptions. The elders should be trained in all types of situations, and be aware of patterns that are known to emerge. But they should also know that they are not the trained experts who deal with such things very often. There are secular experts who do have this training. Those experts might do a terrible job. Trained elders might do a better job. But that doesn't change the fact that crimes should be handled by the secular authorities, per Romans 13:1-5

  • 1Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

 

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Allen, Allen Allen ..... sigh ......

48 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

There you go again with your ignorance about Stephen Lett’s video. What the HELL was he referring to, you arrogant person? NOT the pedophilia but the Watchtower cover ups. Something you, ANNA, and JWinsider have insinuated in the PAST. Just as you keep insinuating about cover-ups NOW! Why donÂ’t YOU, JWINSIDER, and others start speaking the TRUTH, and REPENT on your ungodly devotion.

 

As you the rest, LOOK AT YOUR OWN POST, DOUBLE TALKER!

 

Whatever meds you are on .... check with your Doctor.

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