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Child sexual abuse has been found in most major UK religions


Srecko Sostar
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Yes, we have discussed this on the forum before. I think this issue is taken to be viewed from the secular perspective only. They, the secular authorities, designate JW elders as having a clerical rol

Laws and regulations about issue is available to see and you said well. Of course, when we speak about JW elders then it is notable to understand how we have to put clear picture on question; Do

So, we could say that it is a matter of decision, In this case by JW elders, how much they want to be principled. The three Jews from the book of Daniel were so principled that they were thrown into t

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Thanks for posting this. On this forum one might even forget that the Catholics have a problem. Also, I've seen statistics that are surprisingly detailed for some religious organizations, reminding me that JWs aren't the only ones who keep records on such issues, including from among their congregants/laymen/parishioners.

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4 hours ago, JW Insider said:

records

Creating, collecting, using and storing records / documentation is not a problem in itself. The problem arises when one wants to deny the existence of documents. When it is used incorrectly or prohibits the use of documentation (public review or legal inspection of records according to regulations and legal acts). When it is not said how much documentation there is and what their content is. When it is not said what is the purpose of collecting and creating documents, and what is the future of records. And similar.

 

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One also might forget that Mormonism has a problem. 

The woman expressed, “As we have said in other investigations, what marks religious organisations out from other institutions is the explicit purpose they have in teaching right from wrong; the moral turpitude of any failing by them in the prevention of, or response to, child sexual abuse is therefore heightened.

If someone on the outside needs to remind a religion of their “moral” obligations, then, as is the case in the Wt., the religion is practicing immoral responses in the case of CSA.  

 What sets this organization apart from all other religions?  Nothing, all established religions have their roots in the world of immorality and corruption.  But the Wt. is also committing spiritual immorality as a holding ground to trample, persecute and destroy the anointed priesthood in Christ..and any who have joined them.  (Matt 24:15,16,24; 2 Thess 2:3,4; Rev 11:1,2; 13:1,2, ,5-7, 11,12,15; 16:13-16; 12:3,4,15,17)

Jesus purposefully said, worship that is approved by the Father is in “spirit and truth”, not through any earthly “mountainlike organization”.  (John 4:21-24)  He began His Temple arrangement/“organization” of anointed “living stones” in the first century. (John 2:19-21; Eph 4:4-6; 2:20-22; 1 Pet 2:5,9; 1 Cor 3:16,17) And it will be the “mountain”/spiritual organization that will rise above all corruption and immorality.  Isa 2:1-4; Zech 4:6,7) The greatest test against these “stones” is through an earthly organization established by men, that convinces millions that it belongs to God.  How can that be, when in this document there are two pages directed to the failures of the CCJW to practice morality? In this case, the Wt. is certainly “like the nations”.  Ezek 20:32

It is time to separate from the corruption and immorality of the Wt.  Rev 18:4-8 

"For on My holy mountain, the high mountain of Israel, declares the Lord GOD, there the whole house of Israel, all of them, will serve Me in the land. There I will accept them and will require your offerings and choice gifts, along with all your holy sacrifices.

41When I bring you from the peoples and gather you from the lands to which you have been scattered, I will accept you as a pleasing aroma. And I will show My holiness through you in the sight of the nations. 42Then you will know that I am the LORD, when I bring you into the land of Israel, the land that I swore to give your fathers.

43There you will remember your ways and all the deeds with which you have defiled yourselves, and you will loathe yourselves for all the evils you have done. 44Then you will know, O house of Israel, that I am the LORD, when I have dealt with you for the sake of My name and not according to your wicked ways and corrupt acts, declares the Lord GOD.”  Ezek 20:40-44

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Creating, collecting, using and storing records / documentation is not a problem in itself. The problem arises when one wants to deny the existence of documents. When it is used incorrectly or prohibits the use of documentation (public review or legal inspection of records according to regulations and legal acts). When it is not said how much documentation there is and what their content is. When it is not said what is the purpose of collecting and creating documents, and what is the future of records. And similar.

 

If I'm not mistaken, sharing some information, especially when it pertains to privileged and private information is not legal. I'm not even talking about sharing information about a perpetrator, I'm talking about the victim/survivor. Zalkin is sitting on a pile (he says about 100) of cases given to him by the org. which he is not allowed to use or make public by law. They are locked up in his safe. 

Also, I do not think the existence of such documentation/records has ever been denied.

 

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4 hours ago, Anna said:

If I'm not mistaken, sharing some information, especially when it pertains to privileged and private information is not legal.

Laws and regulations about issue is available to see and you said well.

Of course, when we speak about JW elders then it is notable to understand how we have to put clear picture on question; Do they, JW elders, clergy or not? If they are clergy then they have "right" to call themselves on Catholic Clergy privilege and ask for same "rights" as they do. 

Is an elder in the JW congregation the same as a priest in the Catholic Church? Do they have the same role and obligations and status according to biblical principles? Do they belong to the same kind of hierarchy (Catholic hierarchy, "Apostolic" hierarchy) as WTJWorg lawyers have sought before the courts?

4 hours ago, Anna said:

I'm talking about the victim/survivor. Zalkin is sitting on a pile (he says about 100) of cases given to him by the org. which he is not allowed to use or make public by law. They are locked up in his safe. 

I guess someone gave him that information and someone "forbade" him to use it. Or he got them on the condition that he shouldn’t use them. The source (WTJWorg) of the information would have the right to publish that information for the sake of “truth and justice”. But that wouldn't be of interest to the WTJWorg organization, would it? That would distort the image of a "spiritual paradise."

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There are SOooo many things that "look good on paper", that work well on paper, but in the REAL world, because all humans are flawed, some more than others, the "rules, regulations, protocols, and intentions" in the REAL world are. AS APPLIED, also deeply flawed.

It's the nature of the beast.

Those who don't get out of the basement much never realize this, and their inexperience, and lack of perception causes them to imagine a world where the way things SHOULD be is somehow attainable.

It's not

Get used to it.

Or have a stroke.

It's not so amazing that the dancing bear dances well ..... but that it can even dance at all.

In the Catholic World View, a Priest is the intermediary between God and mankind, and if you confess to the priest, whatever you confess is, in theory, known only between you and God.

The classic example of how this does NOT work is how, during World War II, in Germany, the Catholics were taking confessions of resistance fighters, and acting as an intelligence  network for whoever they thought would win the war, at any point in time.

Usually the Nazis, as former Cardinal Pachelli, who before the war was the Vatican Secretary of State, and who signed the "Holy Concordat" between the Vatican and the Third Reich, aligning the two governments in common cause.

So, a Catholic would confess to the Priest, and the info, if of tactical advantage to the Nazis, went to the Nazis.  Usually.

Among Jehovah's Witnesses, if a Brother or Sister confesses to the Elders some transgression, Matthew 18:15, in my experience, and the experiences of every account I have ever heard of, is NEVER invoked when it is time for "the rubber to meet the road".

Matthew 18 in general is completely ignored ...when it is needed the most.

Not only that, but they share details with the ENTIRE body of elders, who share it with their wives, and other elders in other Congregations they know well ... and make written reports to Headquarters, reviewed by many there. Lawyers, Secretaries, Clerks, and IT people when it is digitized.

Nothing new.  Nothing unusual. Same-Oh-Same-Oh.

It's just that the dancing bear has two left feet, and a balance problem.

Bears should not try and dance, but since the beginning of time, all figurative bears dress up in top hat and tails, and try to dance.

Anywhere on this planet, in every time and place, this is true, to a greater or lesser extent.

Recognizing REALITY, as it really is, is sad, discouraging, and then we die.

As each of us march without pause to our own eventual deaths, the important thing is to stay sane.

Sanity requires that we recognize that our "Spiritual Paradise" is not. It is, as applied, a very bad form of organization.

Sanity requires that we recognize that all the others are so much worse.

Matthew 18 is by far the most important book of the Bible, down here where the "rubber meets the road".

 

 

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10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

Of course, when we speak about JW elders then it is notable to understand how we have to put clear picture on question; Do they, JW elders, clergy or not? If they are clergy then they have "right" to call themselves on Catholic Clergy privilege and ask for same "rights" as they do. 

Is an elder in the JW congregation the same as a priest in the Catholic Church? Do they have the same role and obligations and status according to biblical principles? Do they belong to the same kind of hierarchy (Catholic hierarchy, "Apostolic" hierarchy) as WTJWorg lawyers have sought before the courts?

Yes, we have discussed this on the forum before. I think this issue is taken to be viewed from the secular perspective only. They, the secular authorities, designate JW elders as having a clerical role as ministers (of religion). Therefore, under official circumstances, such as in a court of law, elders are viewed as "clergy". Whether they themselves, or the congregation view them as clergy in the traditional sense or not is irrelevant in these secular circumstances. (JWs view everyone who is baptized as minister, but obviously there is a distinction between roles and obligations, since elders also have the role of oversight and shepherding). I think in secular terms the word elder falls under the umbrella of clergy, despite the fact that our "clergy" do not hold matters confidential (as you and pudgy pointed out) to the same extent as a Catholic priest for example.

Legislators obviously have not made an exception to who exactly should be viewed as clergy. They have not, as far as I know, added a clause which says JW elders should not be viewed as clergy because they are not the same as Catholic priests and do not view confidential disclosure in the traditional sense. By law, they fall under the same umbrella regardless of differences of application by the particular religion.

If I remember right, the plaintiff in a recent lawsuit tried to use the difference of elders and clergy to his advantage by arguing that elders cannot be viewed as clergy because their brand of “confidentiality” includes a whole body of elders and the HQ. However, the judge deemed this irrelevant because he said it is a religions right of how they (JWs) apply their beliefs, and that it wasn't the courts business to tell a religion how to run their religious affairs, and then on that account make exceptions to secular rules. In the courts eyes an elder was clergy, period.

In saying this, I personally believe the org. should refuse the designation of clergy by secular authorities as applying to them. But I am not sure if this is possible legally? It might not be.
In any case, if it is possible, then I think they should do it. But law is so complex, rigid, and impersonal and doing something that is not according to the law can have bad repercussions down the road, even for an innocent party.

The JWs have been trying to, actually imploring, legislators to change the law and make ALL clergy mandatory reporters (all over the world). This is what all victims want too. Perhaps this is the real answer to solving the problem…. 

 

 

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

I guess someone gave him that information and someone "forbade" him to use it

 

 

The law forbids him to use it.  

10 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

The source (WTJWorg) of the information would have the right to publish that information for the sake of “truth and justice”.

I don't think the WT org. has the right to publish it or give anyone else the right. These papers involve specific cases, most of which have not even been proven, but are allegations (and these allegations would have to be proved as fact in court). To publish anything like this....well I am sure you can see this would be very wrong. Zalkin is not interested in publishing, (against the law anyway) as much as he is interested in wining specific cases. But unless a victim asks him to do so, he cannot open a case. So he has no choice but to keep the files locked up.

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Further about the situation with Zalkin.

From one website:

"He Zalkin) also has four years of redacted documents locked in a filing cabinet in his office. The judge’s protective order prevents him from saying how many documents he received or describing what they reveal about child abuse in Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations.

“It’s very frustrating to have seen what I’ve seen and to know what is going on in this institution and this organization,” he said. “It’s very frustrating when I’ve got a gag in my mouth. It’s pretty hard. We’re trying our best to expose this truth, and they’re doing everything they can to interfere with that effort, to block that effort.”

Who put the gag in his mouth? The judge.

And if you don't mind me saying, what has he seen, as he claims? And what does he know about the "institution"? In reality he knows nothing, only what he has heard or seen written down.  He is just saying words that will impress lay people, people who don't know much about JWs or the law. He himself knows, as a lawyer, he could never divulge information in these documents. He would lose his license immediately.

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1 hour ago, Anna said:

I think this issue is taken to be viewed from the secular perspective only.

So, we could say that it is a matter of decision, In this case by JW elders, how much they want to be principled. The three Jews from the book of Daniel were so principled that they were thrown into the furnace of fire. Some are principled and refuse blood transfusions or military service. But WTJWorg lawyers are the ones asking the court that JW elders should have the same status as Catholic priests. It is not the court that grants them that status (perhaps court try to understand and make comparison between payed and not-payed "ministers" . The JW elders invoke the right not to speak before the Court what a JW member has admitted to them.

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16 hours ago, Anna said:

They, the secular authorities, designate JW elders as having a clerical role as ministers (of religion). Therefore, under official circumstances, such as in a court of law, elders are viewed as "clergy"

I think you are a dreamer, but we've been down this road before and you will believe what you want to believe. 

If i remember rightly in one case, the Elders refused to testify against a fellow Elder, using that clergy privilege as the excuse.

Maybe Zalkin or the judge is being paid off by the GB and their Lawyers. 

But tell me please.

Australia had the Australian Royal Commission 

Here in the UK we have had the Charity Commission and the IICSA.

The Netherlands had an investigation and report. 

So what is America doing ? Where is the investigation in the USA ?

Canada, was trying to have a massive million dollar law suit, but I think it wasn't allowed. So what is Canada now doing ?

Seems strange that the Watchtower / JW Org isn't being investigated in it's 'home land'. 

( @Witness mentioned something about the Org making payment to a politician some time back )

The GB will do anything to keep their authority and power.  I think they are paying off someone in America to stop an investigation from happening. 

But of course if you know different. If you know of an investigation into religion in the USA ??? 

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