I'm worried about a 'brother' recently reinstated spending too much time with my grandchildren

[TrueTomHarley]

2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Why TTH, I did not know you had a Japanese accent when typing!

Sorry. I got it mixed up with Broom Hilda (who I don’t think I have ever seen you use).

[JOHN BUTLER]

@BillyTheKid46 Quote  " The irony, you attack the GB when your heart in no better than the soulless being you present, not just here but elsewhere. "

The difference being that i don't pretend to know the truth, and i don't want power over others. I don't make rules for others to follow. I do not mislead anyone as I do not try to 'take the lead' in any way. 

I do not pretend that i am the 'Faithful and discreet slave' of God through Christ. 

And I'm not frightened to admit that i have no love or trust in anyone. 

But then i don't hide pedophiles either, and I don't tell people how tight or loose their clothes should be. I don't make up rules about who can speak to who. I don't write magazines that tell deliberate lies about what God requires of us. I don't make up rules about the use of blood and then change those rules at a later date. 

I am only responsible for me. Your GB has made itself responsible for millions of people, but they have no proof that the responsibility is guided by God or Christ. 

Your GB has no love of people, only love of power over people. Your GB does not care about the victims of Child Sexual Abuse, they only care about 'their' money being spent in compensation. 

Your GB is prepared to sacrifice innocent lives to cover up the wickedness of the W/t and the JW Org.

Your GB 'cleans the outside of the dish or bowl, but leaves the inside full of disgusting things'.

And you Billy just worship your GB so much that you are completely blind to it all.

 

[TrueTomHarley]

18 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Billy I'm sure you know that a lot of people are only in those crap organisations (W/t & JW Org) because they have too much to lose, materially, emotionally, mentally. 

This is exactly how it was in the Jewish nation, per laws given to Moses, that serve as a last-ditch method of discipline.

 

18 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Many witnesses openly admit that they are physically in / mentally-spiritually out.

I had someone contact me via email, trying to get me going, saying he was one of them—physically in, but mentally out. And—here’s the kicker—he said that after he placed literature he would later return to warn the householder not to read it! Or if he did, not to act upon it. Now, just let me get a mental picture of how that might go down:

Why did he place literature in the first place? He is “a member of a controlling cult that monitors everything he does, and so he has no choice!”—I guess he would have to say something like that. And they “control” him by threatening to take his family away if he doesn’t follow every “command” that they issue! It is too late for him, but not too late for you, Mr. Householder. Run and save yourself!

Really? Could that truly be?

Look, if you want to present the picture that opposers are batsh*t crazy, I can’t think of a better way to do it. On Christmas Eve, he goes to homes to sing Christmas carols. On every other night, he goes to sing Hotel California: 

‘You can check in any time you like—but you can never leave!’

or House of the Rising Sun:

‘and it’s been the ruin of many a poor boy, and God, I know, I’m one’

or For What it’s Worth:

‘step out of line, the men come to take you away!’

Sheesh. People are crazy. Batsh*t crazy—pure and simple.

He also said, (with a hee hee hee) that he was one of thousands! Could that be? Or is his army like that of Gideon, making such a god-awful racket that they seem far larger than they really are? Or is it just him? Or is it not even him—look, going door to door for even the right reason is a challenge—but to go twice to say that you want to take back what you said the first time because you are actually an undercover guerrilla fighter—when the householder wasn’t all that interested in the first place? What kind of a nutcase could pull that off? 

No matter. I don’t run away from these things. I run toward them. I think of the Philippians verse: 

“True, some are preaching the Christ through envy and rivalry, but others also through goodwill. The latter are publicizing the Christ out of love...but the former do it out of contentiousness, not with a pure motive, for they are supposing to stir up tribulation....What then? [Nothing,] except that in every way, whether in pretense or in truth, Christ is being publicized, and in this I rejoice.” (1:15-18)

The object is to get the good news out there, and these unhinged nutcases only help the cause. To be sure, it is a strange way to get it out there, but it does get it out there. The whole program is strange, as I told one fellow trying to run a garage sale that no one was showing up for. Appear out of nowhere as a complete stranger and say you want to talk about God? Christians are a theatrical spectacle in all the earth, says Paul. Tell me about it.

Nor am I ashamed that there are so many “apostates.” I am proud of them. I consider them additional proof that what we have fulfills the Bible pattern. If we didn’t have any—that would be a test of my faith, for I would wonder why. There is no NT writer who does not deal with apostates. If they existed then, why would they not exist now? In fact, as we get closer to crunch time, you would expect them to be more numerous and virulent, and would wonder what was the problem if they were not.

To be sure, many Witnesses run away from these things—it has been the pattern. The time may come when they will tackle them head-on. Opponents are having their day in the sun—beyond all question they have thrust awkward, even disagreeable, aspects of JWs front and center on the world stage. I take my hat off to them. Well done! That does not mean that I admire them. It is more like when the Jurassic Park security chief says of the pterodactyl circling round to pounce on him, ‘Good girl!’ Then he was eaten alive amidst bloodcurdling screaming.

Will the beasts do the same this time? I think not. We are used to presenting the gem of the Christian way of life through it’s most appealing facet. Let us learn to present it through it’s least appealing one. It is the same gem. “The game is the same, it’s just up on another level.” That’s the song we should be singing—leave it to the lunatics to sing Hotel California!

The trick is not to try to sanitize the present. It is to de-sanitize the past. It is to say of Peter, ‘He is the most prominent one, and yet he cowers like an adolescent—his action can be (probably was) painted as hypocrisy on steroids! Once the Jewish Christians show up, he avoids company of the Gentile ones? And he is given the keys to the kingdom? Yes. That is how it is. God uses people despite phenomenal weaknesses. 

Transport it to the present day. We have people who did not avoid the trap that everyone else has fallen into. They wished not to advertise their dirty laundry—and to carry on as though they had none. They did it for perfectly understandable reasons—for fear of tarnishing the Name that they tried to stand proclaim. But they did it. The fact that they alone sought to investigate an evil in order to mete out discipline and protect other congregations does not matter.

They can ‘reform’ in the eyes of the reasonable world, and likely have done so even now, with various tweaks culminating in that May 2019 issue. But they will never ever reform enough in the eyes of their virulent detractors. At some point, perhaps they will take on detractors more openly—judiciously, and not so as to satisfy the detractors, which cannot be done, but to offer a defense of the Christian way to those whose ear the detractors have gained. This is what you want to be writing your books about, Greg Stafford, not arguing over the Trinity.

In other words, the things that detractors paint as sordid are exactly the traps that well-intentioned and imperfect people who are ‘insular’ (no part of the world) could be expected to fall into. We’ll learn, where necessary, to present the truth through this facet so easily spun as a negative. 

It is the same with disfellowshipping, which opposers (many of them disfellowshipped themselves) have made into a monster issue, and in this age where ‘victimization’ is all the rage, have thrust it into the public eye. Keep it there where it belongs. Don’t try to skulk away from it.

Jehovah’s Witnesses are a faith that adherents take seriously. If you don’t participate, even if you stop, that does not create ripples. If you turn 180 degrees and flame what your family holds most dear, that probably will. The scriptures “tell” congregation members what to do in that event. Leadership merely alerts to those scriptures & afterwards their job is done. It could be tweaked—has been already— but any competent leadership would know of the same verses & principles behind them. Most people will have little difficulty in accepting that if you persistently by word or deed refuse to conform to the standards of any group, you may find yourself out on your ear.

The malcontents who carry on that ‘if it is not perfect, it is filthy’ would not have lasted two minutes in the first century. They would have honed in on the ill doings of those Revelation 2 and 3 congregations and started screaming back then just as they are screaming now. 

And if they would not have lasted two minutes during the early days of the Christian congregation, they would not have lasted two seconds in the early days of the Jewish nation. Yes, yes, there are some things that are not exactly the same. But the similarities far outnumber the differences.

 

 

 

[Anna]

22 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

and you don't need three days and 20 videos to explain it.

Some do!

[JW Insider]

27 minutes ago, TrueTomHarley said:

In other words, the things that detractors paint as sordid are exactly the traps that well-intentioned and imperfect people who are ‘insular’ (no part of the world) could be expected to fall into. We’ll learn, where necessary, to present the truth through this facet so easily spun as a negative. 

I was looking for an 80 percent up-vote emoji, (🤔?) but I gave you a full up-vote anyway because I think you have hit the target so well with several statements like the one I just re-quoted. I get the sense you are able to "aiming your blows so as not to be striking the air" and "not running aimlessly."

(1 Corinthians 9:24-27) 24 Do you not know that the runners in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win it. 25 Now everyone competing in a contest exercises self-control in all things. Of course, they do it to receive a crown that can perish, but we, one that does not perish. 26 Therefore, the way I am running is not aimlessly; the way I am aiming my blows is so as not to be striking the air; 27 but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, so that after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow.

Of course, it's not about striking back at others' arguments, but how we continually train ourselves to keep the faith with so many obstacles about. One of the obstacles will always be our own human failings, and how we keep trying to fix these, to become the "approved" person we ought to be. We don't have to broadcast our personal failings, and most of us won't; so we might always give the appearance that we are more concerned about the failings of those around us. Most of the time, we watch how we walk, but there are times when we should give attention to the failings of those around us, and watch how they walk.

This is one of the reasons for this topic, because someone is concerned about the potential failings of another. To some it will look like paranoia, but some persons have a more protective and sometimes "hovering" sense. Reminds me of Jesus' words:  (Matthew 23:37) . . .how often I wanted to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings! But you did not want it.

Those who have seen the evil in people up close and personally may actually have a keener "intuitive" sense of potential evil. Or perhaps that "intuitive" sense has been destroyed for the same reasons. I have no idea, so I am not trying to answer John directly on this topic.

But to follow up on Paul's words about how we fight the fine fight of the faith for ourselves, Jude shows how we must also watch out for obstacles set by others:

(Jude 3-13) . . .Beloved ones, although I was making every effort to write you about the salvation we hold in common, I found it necessary to write you to urge you to put up a hard fight for the faith that was once for all time delivered to the holy ones. 4 My reason is that certain men have slipped in among you who were long ago appointed to this judgment by the Scriptures; they are ungodly men who turn the undeserved kindness of our God into an excuse for brazen conduct and who prove false to our only owner and Lord, Jesus Christ. . . . 12 These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; 13 wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.

[JW Insider]

17 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I have no love for anyone, no trust in anyone.

Yikes. It's hard to believe it could be so "all or nothing." As you say, if we can't think like you, we won't really be able to understand. But it reminds me of a recent discussion about how God commanded "love" from the nation of Israel. They say you can't legislate love, but for some I suppose, even this idea can be a "tutor" leading to Christ. We go through the motions of love until we are responding the way a loving person responds, whether we think we have the same feelings most others do or not. For thousands of years, people have spoken this way about arranged marriages. It's the same part of Corinthians I just quoted from to Tom where the apostle Paul said:

(1 Corinthians 9:16-19) . . .Now if I am declaring the good news, it is no reason for me to boast, for necessity is laid upon me. Really, woe to me if I do not declare the good news! 17 If I do this willingly, I have a reward; but even if I do it against my will, I still have a stewardship entrusted to me. 18 What, then, is my reward? That when I declare the good news, I may offer the good news without cost, to avoid abusing my authority in the good news. 19 For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible.

Sorry to second-guess, but I can just imagine that you would quickly focus on the expression "abusing my authority in the good news" and turn this into another comment about the GB. But my point is that we can also work alongside people we don't necessarily trust, and still accomplish some good. If and when we see them abuse their authority, we can point it out as Paul often did, but Paul also reminded the Corinthians here that it was OK for them to support (materially) some of those ministers who asked for material support, even though Paul wanted none of that for himself.

[Anna]

1 hour ago, TrueTomHarley said:

This is what you want to be writing your books about, Greg Stafford, not arguing over the Trinity.

Did you tell him that?

[JOHN BUTLER]

@TrueTomHarley  Ok let's take one step at a time with your over long comment. Over long deliberately to deceive people, to try to take people away from the true points of my comment. Nice try Tom.

1. I quote " This is exactly how it was in the Jewish nation, per laws given to Moses, that serve as a last-ditch method of discipline."

No in the Jewish nation people were born into it, they did not volunteer themselves into it. A big difference. Hence I've said before, children should not be baptised, they should have to wait until they are 'adult' age, then it would be voluntary. 

When  a person volunteers themself to be a JW (gets baptised) they think, at the time, that they are 'giving their life to God'. But in truth they are joining the JWOrg /W/t / GB run club. However it is voluntary, not born into. Big difference. 

But once a person is in that 'club' they become ensnared. They are told not to mix with people 'in the world', not to do business with 'people in the world', always bo no part of that 'wicked world. So of course they build their whole world around the JW Org . W/t, GB.  Then they are trapped. All their eggs in one basket.  If they leave the 'club' they lose everything, in a sense.

However as I've found by leaving that 'club', it does not mean turning my back on God or Jesus Christ. 

2. Many witnesses openly admit that they are physically in / mentally-spiritually out.

You took this and tried to make a comedy out of it. It didn't work Tom.  It didn't work because so many people know that many JW's are not 'fully committed' to your GB and it's JW Org. I think it was James that said that many JW's don't even use the NWT bible. 

As for doing preaching hours, it only takes ½ an hour PER MONTH to put in a Monthly Report. 

3. Quote "There is no NT writer who does not deal with apostates. If they existed then, why would they not exist now? "

It is so easy for you, the Gb and the Org to use that silly word Apostates. I say silly because it loses its meaning by overuse. 

The NT writers suffered opposition from Jews that did not believe that Jesus was the Christ / Messiah,  or did not want to let go of the power they had. And from the Romans of course. However those 'writers' were inspired of God and could do works to PROVE it. 

What the GB / JW Org / W/t is suffering now is not opposition to God or Jesus Christ, it is opposition to false teachings, opposition to man made rules, opposition to Child Sexual abuse in the JW Org / w/t, opposition to the GB demanding that they are seen as the only 'Faithful and discreet slave',  opposition to oppression from Elders, get the picture. 

Your GB cannot prove that they have the authority to give themselves the position they do give themselves. (Remember your argument about proving the Trinity). They do not have WORKS to PROVE their authority.

Tom you should probably carry on writing fairy stories as you seem to live in that sort of a 'world', a dream world.  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

6 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

I think it was James that said that many JW's don't even use the NWT bible. 

No, I said that I don't ... when in Field Service .... if memory serves.

Therein lies the problem.

[JOHN BUTLER]

@JW Insider  Quote "Those who have seen the evil in people up close and personally may actually have a keener "intuitive" sense of potential evil. Or perhaps that "intuitive" sense has been destroyed for the same reasons. I have no idea, so I am not trying to answer John directly on this topic."

In a nutshell. I suffered 3½ years of sexual abuse, physical abuse and emotional abuse in a Children's Home, from age 13 to 16½. It was suffer and keep quiet, or be moved into an Approved School, which i was assured was 10 times worse.  We didn't have sex education back then so i was very nieve, and I was under the 'care' of the council (local government) so could not just walk away from it. I could not report it to the police as they were all part of the same system and i would have been 'moved'.  

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Every once in a great while, you will find an excellent Doctor , who is exceptional, but he never went to medical school and does not have a license to practice.  Several movies have been made about this sort of thing, wither about doctors, policemen, and even airline pilots.

Take whatever lessons you want from this observation.

 

[JOHN BUTLER]

If and when we see them abuse their authority, we can point it out as Paul often did, 

I like this. There were times when an Elder would give me a headache / chew my ear off I think is an expression, and i would simply say to him,  'Show me three scriptures to back up what you are saying, or go away'.  They would walk away.

One of the points regularly was not wearing a jacket and tie in hot weather. In my opinion neither God nor Christ demanded it.