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JOHN BUTLER
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20 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

That is why i brought the problem here. Even before i put it up on here I had gone to my bedroom and prayed to God and cried about it. It hurts me, the problem itself, the people involved, and not knowing what to do. 

John Butler:

I gave you excellent advice ... and you ignored it ... or at the very least did not consider and meditate on WHY it really would work.

It cost you nothing.

Had I charged you $500 for the advice, you would have probably taken it to heart, you would have ACTUALLY solved the problem, and stopped hopping around in circles with one shoe nailed to the floor and your hair on fire, trying to put it out with your tears.

If you send me a check for One Thousand Dollars, after it clears the bank, we will BOTH feel better .... you would have gotten high-priced out-of-town advice that really worked, , and I would have a thousand dollars. 

Win-Win for BOTH of us.

This is simply a social engineering problem, but, to mix metaphors .... like Dandruff .... if you cured it in six days, ... you would have nothing to fiddle with and scratch until it bleeds.

 

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@Space Merchant Quote : "Plus this should be discussion with those of your circle rather than here"  I don't have a circle. Jehovah's Witnesses are 'encouraged' not to socialize with 'people in t

That is why I said try to get the police it keep it confidential, because some of those people might get the mistaken impression you are doing this out of a grudge. In any case, if you explain ex

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4 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

John Butler:

I gave you excellent advice ... and you ignored it ... or at the very least did not consider and meditate on WHY it really would work.

It cost you nothing.

Had I charged you $500 for the advice, you would have probably taken it to heart, you would have ACTUALLY solved the problem, and stopped hopping around in circles with one shoe nailed to the floor and your hair on fire, trying to put it out with your tears.

If you send me a check for One Thousand Dollars, after it clears the bank, we will BOTH feel better .... you would have gotten high-priced out-of-town advice that really worked, , and I would have a thousand dollars. 

Win-Win for BOTH of us.

This is simply a social engineering problem, but, to mix metaphors .... like Dandruff .... if you cured it in six days, ... you would have nothing to fiddle with and scratch until it bleeds.

 

JTR you talk in riddles and seem to make jokes out of serious situations. 

So basically I've no idea what you are talking about.

Americans always seem to talk in monetary terms. Money is of no interest to me.

I think the scriptures say it is for a protection. For me it puts food in our stomachs and fuel in the vehicles. 

Ok now, 

QUOTE BECAUSE, for you, this is ONLY hearsay, you have no responsibility whatsoever to report this to the police, but you do have a responsibility to report it to the Congregation Elders ... if, and ONLY AFTER you have had a thorough discussion with all parties involved ... but ONLY as a "heads-up", so that they do not get sucker punched.

1. As I'm no longer a JW, and when i was a JW i was threatened with being disfellowshipped for  reporting something serious to the Elders, then I think they would just pretend i was trying  to cause trouble. 

2. I said in my original post that the Elders already know, but they 'did nothing', well nothing visible  to others.

3. I do not know 'all parties involved' I know the accused and his father. I know the age of the 'victim' but not her name nor her family name. 

4. I only have third hand information to go on. 

5. Because i am no longer a JW, NONE OF THEM will have conversation with me. So how  could i even talk to them ?

And as Anna said "because some of those people might get the mistaken impression you are doing this out of a grudge."

I'm just letting it bide. The shock is wearing off a bit now. 

I will do it the American way, do some research into what my legal obligation is. 

 

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2 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

Screw Legal.

What is your MORAL obligation.

James, we are going round in circles here. 

When I've brought up the idea before that the Elders should always go to the police with ALL information of accusations of child Abuse, I have been shot down in flames for it. 

You are advising me I should approach people that will not even speak to me. But not to go to the police. 

If I approached the Elders with the information that I've been given, knowing full well they will do nothing about it, then I'm just creating a loophole for myself. Just saying 'well I've done my bit'. It that the moral obligation I have ? 

PLUS. in my honest opinion that would give the Elders the opportunity to destroy the written evidence which they would have recorded originally. 

Over to you to explain in plain English what my moral obligation is...   

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1 hour ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Over to you to explain in plain English what my moral obligation is...

I know this was for JTR, but if you don't mind me repeating what your moral obligation is in plain English: report everything you know to the police and let them decide what to do with it. 

I don't really understand John what the dilemma is for you, because you are the one who brought up the topic of the JW organization and their failure of not reporting to police. Now is your chance to demonstrate how it should be done, and you are not sure? I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't get it...

 

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2 minutes ago, Anna said:

I know this was for JTR, but if you don't mind me saying what your moral obligation is; report everything you know to the police and let them decide what to do with it. 

I don't really understand John what the dilemma is for you, because you are the one who brought up the topic of the JW organization and their failure of not reporting to police. Now is your chance to demonstrate how it should be done, and you are not sure? I'm not trying to be mean, I just don't get it...

 

Anna, all i have is third hand information.  And all i have is the name of the accused and his father.

I do not have the name of the young girl that was the victim, or the name of her family.

So if I report it to the police they would want the name of the person that informed me. 

In the situation with the Elders, they know the victim, they know the accused, they have details of the situation. The Elders have first hand information from both the accused and the victim..... 

What i have is third hand information that I assume is correct. I have no reason to disbelieve the person that told me. 

They told me because i was telling them the reason that i left the JW Org. Whilst i was telling them my reason, they assumed it was partly because of this 'situation' with the details here, that I left. They wrongly presumed that this 'happening' in 'our congregation', had triggered off my leaving. But even though i was part of the congregation at the time it must have happened, i had no knowledge of it then.

It seems to me that JTR says do not go to the police, whereas you say go to the police. 

I'm not trying to start a war here. If i had the name of the young girl I would indeed go to the police. Especially as it seems her father wants to keep it quiet. Why would a father of a young child that had just had such a terrible experience, and on her own bed too, want to keep it quiet ? That child may think about it every time she goes to bed. 

 

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31 minutes ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Anna, all i have is third hand information.  And all i have is the name of the accused and his father.

I do not have the name of the young girl that was the victim, or the name of her family.

So if I report it to the police they would want the name of the person that informed me. 

In the situation with the Elders, they know the victim, they know the accused, they have details of the situation. The Elders have first hand information from both the accused and the victim..... 

What i have is third hand information that I assume is correct. I have no reason to disbelieve the person that told me. 

They told me because i was telling them the reason that i left the JW Org. Whilst i was telling them my reason, they assumed it was partly because of this 'situation' with the details here, that I left. They wrongly presumed that this 'happening' in 'our congregation', had triggered off my leaving. But even though i was part of the congregation at the time it must have happened, i had no knowledge of it then.

It seems to me that JTR says do not go to the police, whereas you say go to the police. 

I'm not trying to start a war here. If i had the name of the young girl I would indeed go to the police. Especially as it seems her father wants to keep it quiet. Why would a father of a young child that had just had such a terrible experience, and on her own bed too, want to keep it quiet ? That child may think about it every time she goes to bed. 

 

John, I understand why you have a dilema, but it still doesn't change anything about reporting all the information you have, even if second, third, or whatever hand, and even if you have heard the father of the victim doesn't want it reported. This is exactly the kind of situation that lands the JW's in trouble for not reporting, because they think about all those things that you are thinking about, and probably more, since they have even more details because they know of the situation first hand. So there may be very valid reasons why they have not gone to the police. But you don't know those reasons, just as you don't know the reasons for them not going to the police in all the other cases worldwide. It can be a lot more complicated that anyone on the outside realizes. But now you have had a some personal insight into how complicated one case can get without even having all the information!

But still, it doesn't change why you shouldn't go to the police, even if it means could cause a lot of trouble for not only the perpetrators family, but also the victim and the victims family. So that's why I said hopefully the police will be prudent enough to conduct their investigation in a sensitive way. They may not even do anything, but you will have done your moral obligation from your vantage point: in other words because you are worried about the child.

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On 11/18/2018 at 9:26 PM, Outta Here said:

@JOHN BUTLERThe police have highlighted your moral obligation in this matter.

You might feel like letting the ones divulging the information know what you are doing. If you feel unable to talk to an elder directly, you could write to the body asking them to contact you by a certain date  to discuss the matter before you let the authorities know.

Actually it is a bit ludicrous because if you saw a brother's car on fire outside his house, surely you would call the fire brigade and give him a knock to let him know regardless of your spiritual status? You'd hardly write him a letter...would you?

Or if it really is an issue for you,  then try something from here: https://tacklechildabuse.campaign.gov.uk/?gclid=CIDj_-vF494CFR62GwodVhMGYQ

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1 minute ago, Outta Here said:

@JOHN BUTLERThe police have highlighted your moral obligation in this matter.

You might feel like letting the ones divulging the information know what you are doing. If you feel unable to talk to an elder directly, you could write to the body asking them to contact you by a certain date  to discuss the matter before you let the police know. Actually, that seems a little ludicrous because if you saw a brother's car on fire outside  his house, surely you would call the fire brigade and give him a knock to let him know regardless of your spiritual status? You'd hardly write him a letter...would you?

Or if it really is an issue for you,  then try something from here: https://tacklechildabuse.campaign.gov.uk/?gclid=CIDj_-vF494CFR62GwodVhMGYQ

I've just re-read that 'ask the police' link, and yes i agree to a point. 

However the rest of your comment i take as a joke. You pretend that the Org is run properly, justly, honestly fairly, etc.... 

Firstly, you seem to put the blame on me, Quote : "If you feel unable to talk to an elder directly,"... Exactly what are you implying here ? 

Secondly, "you could write to the body asking them to contact you.. " You are so funny. The last time i wrote to the body of elders I actually thought that 'The Body of Elders' got to see the letter. How wrong I was. Maybe two or three Elders got to see that letter. One of which contacted me to meet the 'Elders' at the KH for discussion. When i went to the hall there were two elders there. The one Elder sat in front of me, the other sat behind me. The one in front did all the talking, and told me directly that if I didn't retract all of my accusations, then I would be disfellowshipped. So much for me trying to help keep the congregation clean. I never trusted an Elder since then. And having questioned other Elders after that 'meeting', they said they had no idea what letter I was referring to. 

I know that is all totally off the topic but it gives you insight to my reasoning. 

There is the other point as well. I've said i don't trust the Elders and I will be blunt and say I think they would destroy evidence that they already have. If I thought the police could go into the KH and get the written 'notes' that would have / should have been made at the time, then it would be a lot easier to report it to the police. But as it seems Elders refuse to hand over documents / notes, even if a Police officer has a warrant, then it might appear that I'm just causing trouble with no basis for doing so. 

 

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4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

Org is run properly, justly, honestly fairly,

Not a joke and not the point.

The options presented are simply that...options. The MAIN issue about moral responsibility, which remains, is not offset by others who perhaps fail to meet thiers.

4 hours ago, JOHN BUTLER said:

gives you insight to my reasoning.

It does do and I can see you have a bit of a dilemna, but you seem to be second guessing what you think elders may or may not do. Also you seem to be doing the same regarding the competence of the authorities. You have understandable misgivings on the basis of what you say your experience has been, but in no way do they obviate moral responsibility in this case. Child safety is the issue here.

Given your particular difficulties, the Childline number is available to anyone in Devon UK wanting to discuss problems of this nature: 0800 1111. Ambivalence in such matters seeems to be at the crux of your complaints against Jehovah's Witnesses way of doing things anyway, so why not bite the bullet?

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