RECOGNITION OF THE RULES OF NATURAL JUSTICE

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

Church ‘shuns‘ 15-year-old, then father – ends up in court

Posted by SDD Contributor on November 9, 2019 at 4:20 am

 

The Supreme Court of Canada heard arguments Thursday in a lawsuit against a religious congregation’s “shunning” practice, but the congregation and several other groups contend the justices had no right to even take part in the case.

Randy Wall, a real estate agent, filed the suit against the Highwood congregation of the Jehovah’s Witnesses organization in Calgary, Alberta.

Wall was expelled from the congregation for getting drunk and not be properly repentant, court records said. He pursued an appeals process through the Jehovah’s Witnesses then went to court because he said the Witnesses’ “shunning” — the practice of not associating with him in any way — hurt his business.

He explained his two occasions of drunkenness related to “the previous expulsion by the congregation of his 15-year-old daughter.”

A lower court opinion said: “Even though the daughter was a dependent child living at home, it was a mandatory church edict that the entire family shun aspects of their relationship with her. The respondent said the edicts of the church pressured the family to evict their daughter from the family home. This led to … much distress in the family.”

The “distress” eventually resulted in his drunkenness, Wall said.

 

Wall submitted to the court arguments that about half his client base, members of various Jehovah’s Witnesses congregations, then refused to conduct business with him. He alleged the “disfellowship had an economic impact on the respondent.”

During high court arguments Thursday, the congregation asked the justices to rule that religious congregations are immune to such claims in the judicial system.

The lower courts had ruled that the courts could play a role in determining whether or not such circumstances rise to the level of violating civil rights or injuring a “disfellowshipped” party.

The rulings from the Court of Queen’s Bench and the Alberta Court of Appeals said Wall’s case was subject to secular court jurisdiction.

A multitude of religious and political organizations joined with the congregation in arguing that Canada’s courts should not be involved.

The Justice Center for Constitutional Freedoms said in a filing: “The wish or desire of one person to associate with an unwilling person (or an unwilling group) is not a legal right of any kind. For a court, or the government, to support such a ‘right’ violates the right of self-determination of the unwilling parties.”

Previous case law has confirmed the right of religious or private voluntary groups to govern themselves and dictate who can be a member.

But previously rulings also reveal there is room for the court system to intervene when the question centers on property or civil rights.

The Association for Reformed Political Action described the case as having “profound implications for the separation of church and state.”

It contends the court should keep its hands off the argument.

“Secular judges have no authority and no expertise to review a church membership decision,” said a statement from Andre Schutten, a spokesman for the group. “Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere.”

John Sikkema, staff lawyer for ARPA, said: “The issue in this appeal is jurisdiction. A state actor, including a court, must never go beyond its jurisdiction. The Supreme Court must consider what kind of authority the courts can or cannot legitimately claim. We argue that the civil government and churches each have limited and distinct spheres of authority. This basic distinction between civil and spiritual jurisdiction is a source of freedom and religious pluralism and a guard against civic totalism.”

He continued: “Should the judiciary have the authority to decide who gets to become or remain a church member? Does the judiciary have the authority to decide who does or does not get to participate in the sacraments? Church discipline is a spiritual matter falling within spiritual jurisdiction, not a legal matter falling within the courts’ civil jurisdiction. The courts should not interfere. Here we need separation of church and state.”

The Alberta Court of Appeal, however, suggested the case was about more than ecclesiastical rules.

“Because Jehovah’s Witnesses shun disfellowshipped members, his wife, other children and other Jehovah’s Witnesses were compelled to shun him,” that lower court decision said. “The respondent asked the appeal committee to consider the mental and emotional distress he and his family were under as a result of his duaghter’s disfellowship.”

The church committee concluded he was “not sufficiently repentant.”

The ruling said “the only basis for establishing jurisdiction over a decision of the church is when the complaint involves property and civil rights,” and that is what Wall alleged.

“Accordingly, a court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization when a breach of the rules of natural justice is alleged.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Srecko Sostar]

46 minutes ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

court has jurisdiction to review the decision of a religious organization

I suppose how, for example, Statute or Charter of some institution, association, golf club, or charity as WT Society, must be according to state law, secular law.

When speaking about "Secular authority" as God's Servant,  that would undoubtedly mean how such sort of authority has Power over WT Society, congregations and members. If secular Judge make unjust or wrong decision, God will call him for responsibility, because Judge is JHVH Servant. Does WT Society and members believe in that? They have to wait for JHVH. Just be calm and wait, nothing more. God will repay them all injustice.

 

[Andre Plamondon]

Ecc 8:9 ,,,man has dominated man to his harm. People are not made to rule over each other, but collectively, we were made to rule over God's creation. Gen 1:26 "let them have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and the domestic animals and all the earth and every creeping animal that is moving on the earth.” to have secular Authority over someone else is not only presumptuous but dangerous. if it weren't for man giving up his authority by flowing the instruction of his wife who followed that of the serpent, you would not be looking for instruction. There is no real authority over man in God's creation. All those who claim authority over you, are actually under the authority of the one who led Moses out of Egypt, Exodus 4:3 "it became a serpent" (staff)  Numbers 21:8 “Make a replica of a poisonous* snake and put it on a pole" you can see how God always agreed with this authority that Man had put over himself. God has a dry sense of humor like some of us who understand how we are made of his substance. we are his image. Just avoid those who try to promote their rule over you. You are a god. . Psalm 82:6  “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Just saying.

[Srecko Sostar]

1 hour ago, Andre Plamondon said:

we were made to rule over God's creation

... and failed catastrophically, too.

1 hour ago, Andre Plamondon said:

if it weren't for man giving up his authority by flowing the instruction of his wife

:)))) I can't recall what verse in Genesis about Adam and Eve in Paradise speaking  how God gave to Adam authority over Eve. I am not sure in what direction you going with next sentence:  

1 hour ago, Andre Plamondon said:

There is no real authority over man in God's creation.

.... and with this:

1 hour ago, Andre Plamondon said:

All those who claim authority over you, are actually under the authority of the one who led Moses out of Egypt, Exodus 4:3 "it became a serpent" (staff) 

After this comment:

1 hour ago, Andre Plamondon said:

God has a dry sense of humor like some of us who understand how we are made of his substance. we are his image. Just avoid those who try to promote their rule over you. You are a god. . Psalm 82:6  “I have said, ‘You are gods, All of you are sons of the Most High. Just saying.

I am not sure what ideology, idea you promote? or you just made parody on issue :))

[Andre Plamondon]

Just came back from shopping.

 

If you want to re-align with your own purpose, you have to use your own inborn faculties without asking for direction. You already have God's spirit in you for as long as you breathe, so you just have to trust it and realize that all the pain that is inflicted on you is by your own permission. When you claim your divinity, people are going to bitch because they don't believe that they are gods so why should you? Either you choose to be a god or you choose to be a sheep that needs a leader. There is only one God and only one Son yet fragmented into billions of members all over the planet that have to be build into one living temple. 1 Peter 2:5 you yourselves as living stones are being built up into a spiritual house. Galatians 4:1 Now I say that as long as the heir is a young child, he is no different from a slave, although he is the lord of all things, 2  but he is under supervisors and stewards until the day set ahead of time by his father. 3 Likewise, we too, when we were children, were enslaved by the elementary things of the world. 4 But when the full limit of the time arrived, God sent his Son, who was born of a woman and who was under law, 5 that he might release by purchase those under law, so that we might receive the adoption as sons. 6 Now because you are sons, God has sent the spirit of his Son into our hearts and it cries out: “Abba, Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave but a son; and if a son, then you are also an heir through God. Col 1:15 "He is the image of the invisible God the firstborn of all creation; 16  because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all other things, and by means of him all other things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that he might become the one who is first in all things; 19 because God was pleased to have all fullness to dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all other things by making peace through the blood he shed on the torture stake, whether the things on the earth or the things in the heavens. Just gets easier from here on. It is sort of funny though.

 

[James Thomas Rook Jr.]

I do not consider myself a god, or a sheep.

I consider myself a "Sheepdog", whose NATURAL instincts and "function in life" is to protect women, and children, and my family, and all innocent people, and if necessary, to engage in mortal combat with others who try to harm them.

...this even makes the sheep VERY nervous, but the reason many of them are sheep is not a desire to be peaceable with all men, as far as it depends upon them ... but because they are naturally stupid, and or cowards.

Andre: I have no idea what your last two posts mean in the real world.

Fine ideas from Scripture, but irrelevant to this post.

If I have missed something, please explain it to me in short words, short sentences, and short paragraphs, .... in your own words.

Otherwise, it is just "white noise". ... like a fan running while one is sleeping.

 

[Srecko Sostar]

9 hours ago, James Thomas Rook Jr. said:

I consider myself a "Sheepdog", whose NATURAL instincts and "function in life" is to protect women, and children, and my family, and all innocent people, and if necessary, to engage in mortal combat with others who try to harm them.

The content of your comment is one of the best, or best of all, in this forum.
Because it talks about the elemental thing in life and for life.

Most of our comments are just philosophizing. Needed, but .....

[Matthew9969]

If I read that right, the elders expected him to kick his 15 year old daughter out of the house?

[Arauna]

On 11/9/2019 at 7:07 PM, Srecko Sostar said:

They have to wait for JHVH. Just be calm and wait, nothing more. God will repay them all injustice.

What do think of a country where Doctors can be forced to do abortions, do LGBT surgery on young children and commit euthanasia  against their so-called conscience! 

I am sure they will find us liable - they are instruments of satan these days. When they go against Jehovah's laws,  we obey jehovah.   

Soon we will be facing persecution from these guys as predicted.  We are living in the last days. Soon they will take you to court if you refuse to sleep with someone.  I read about a case where a transgender wanted to sleep with a man. He called it a "hate crime"  when the man refused..... a very new morality will be forced on us.

 

 

"4,136 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. On average, that's 11 Christians killed every day for their faith." — Open Doors, World Watch List 2019.

More than 245 million Christians around the world are currently suffering from persecution. — Open Doors, World Watch List 2019.

 4,136 Christians were killed for faith-related reasons. On average, that's 11 Christians killed every day for their faith." — Open Doors, World Watch List 2019.

More than 245 million Christians around the world are currently suffering from persecution. — Open Doors, World Watch List 2019.

 

[Andre Plamondon]

What do think of a country where Doctors can be forced to do abortions?

I can't accuse the country, Doctors can quit or take their business elsewhere. Criminals of war were just following orders because they thought sh:t rolled up hill, but you see, it doesn't.

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

Going back to original topic here. The man should not have 'put all his eggs in one basket' it seems.. 

It is sad that his business suffered though (if true) as his being shunned might have been 'punishment' enough.

I would have thought he would have had legal contracts for his business which would mean that customers would be under legal contract to continue business as usual. It does show the lack of love from JW's though, if they deliberately caused problems to his business. 

[Srecko Sostar]

Last week i experienced, in interval of few minutes, how two elders from another congregation respond on my look at them, accros the street, and giving greting with smile. Younger, son of older brother, returned with a smile. Few minutes later, two sisters standing with box and looked at woman with dog. I was walking beside them, again with happy face with looking on sister from my ex congregation, She returned with a smile on her face. …..Or maybe that was because of playing with dog :))))