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Anna

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  1. Upvote
    Anna reacted to JW Insider in The spotlight effect and the extended applications   
    I think it's "spot on."
    I also hope you continue to give further examples in your posts. I think this point is closely related to one of the absolutely most important recent changes to our teachings. I wanted to add some info from a historical perspective on this point. For better or for worse, I got involved in this same subject in 1978, and learned something interesting from the experience. (Interesting to me, at least.) 
    For me, the experience gives some additional perspective on why it took forty-two years to make the official change, from the time this 1972 article first presented this same important question about extended applications, sometimes called: "type-antitype" applications.
    The 1972 Watchtower you quoted was actually a summary of what Ray Franz had learned from the team that researched and put together the Watch Tower's first Bible encyclopedia: "Aid to Bible Understanding" (finished in 1971). The "Aid Book" research resulted in adjustments to the elder arrangement and the GB arrangement. It contains literally dozens of statements about how we can't be absolutely sure of the meaning or reason for certain Biblical references. But the biggest practical change for the Writing Department, was that this Bible dictionary/encyclopedia revolved almost completely around Biblical context. It was not a doctrinal reference.
    I thought this idea about the importance of Biblical context was almost a "radical" idea, because it changed the way that many of us would read and study the Bible. The article you quoted presented the first evidence that we could question the overly specific extended applications (types and antitypes) that we were so accustomed to. It subtly moved the "type-antitype" application from a specific prophetic drama about specific classes of Christians to lessons that taught all of us something about Jehovah's unchanging principles. Everyone on the "Aid Book" team believed that only a few few specific "types and antitypes" should be a part of our doctrinal teachings. (Only the ones that were specifically said to be "type-antitype" in the Bible itself.) But this would mean that literally hundreds of type-antitype applications would have to be dropped. It was too many doctrines to change all at once. Brother Fred Franz, who was the source or "keeper" of many of the type-antitype teachings, argued against dropping them. Brother Fred Rusk (Watchtower Editor) also supported keeping them. I don't know for sure, but I assume that most of the Governing Body at that time would have sided with Fred Franz on anything doctrinal, since he was still treated as "The Oracle" at this time.
    Therefore, the 1972 article was an important and controversial move, but ultimately ended up "compromising" or postponing a big change on this very important point. (The very next article was supposed to balance the idea you quoted with the idea that there are still "prophetic dramas" that have difficult and specific meanings that are too difficult to grasp from principles and context alone.)
    The suggested change was not finally made until October 2014 at the Annual Meeting by Brother Splane. This was forty-two years after it was first presented in 1972. The specifics of this change were credited to Bert Schroeder during the Annual Meeting in 2014. Brother Schroeder had died in 2007, though, and I have no idea what time period Brother Splane was referring to. But I do know that Brother Schroeder suggested this change not long after the death of Fred Franz. His reasons might be clearer with a little more context.
    The primary members of that "Aid Book" team continued to contribute work for the Writing Department from 1972 to 1980, and they were easily the most prolific writers of our Bible-based study material and convention releases. Many others in Writing worked from "news" material, spending a lot of their day reading about wars, earthquakes, food shortages, pestilences, and commenting on "pro" and "con" references to "Jehovah's Witnesses" found in outside publications. About 25% of the study material came from Fred Franz, mostly indirectly from those who based their "new" articles almost totally on prior articles from Franz had written. While I was there, about 75% of the study articles and all but a few of the convention releases came from the  "Aid Book" team.
    The four primary members of that team were dismissed from Bethel in mid-1980. One was disfellowshipped at the time, and another (R Franz) was disfellowshipped in 1981. A couple of them tried to keep a low profile in their congregations, or even continued to get research assignments for the Society for several more years, being given a bit of support through the "special pioneer" arrangement. (Ironically, some of those continuing assignments were related to replacing the Aid Book with the updated Insight Book.) But ultimately all of them, I'm told, finally found themselves outside of the organization even though all of them, as far as I knew, had wanted to quietly remain inside the organization for as long as they were allowed. One of them lasted at least a couple of decades in his congregation, serving as an elder and special pioneer for years, but I do not currently know his status. I haven't heard from him or about him in 10 years, but I heard a rumor that he was "pushed" out.
    While at Bethel, when I read through a large portion of the Aid Book for technical errors and typos, I was a bit troubled at first by the neutral, undogmatic style that sometimes said, "we don't know for sure." I mentioned this to someone on the "Aid Book" team, and said that I'm beginning to understand that the style was necessary as s a kind of public-facing, academic style. In 1978, I asked if it was troubling to anyone else. He said: "There are a lot of people here who would LOVE to hear that about the Aid Book." This really surprised me, because this was early in 1978 and it was a hint of trouble. He explained that the Aid Book was considered "dangerous" and had created a division between Fred Franz supporters in Writing, because it put a new value on context, and relatively less value on "extended applications."
    He said that the most common response (letters/comments) from those who had become familiar with the Aid Book's style were commenting on how much more value they were getting out of their Bible reading because they were realizing for the first time that the meaning from context was now more open to them. For example, they no longer read Ezekiel 18 as just the chapter that had a verse or two about the soul dying (18:4). There's another message in the context that is also very important, and they hadn't noticed it before. By 1975 there were many brothers who had been so overjoyed at this "new" way of reading the Bible that groups of Bethelites would join others in their rooms just for Bible reading. The Aid Book "style" was being credited. Because all of these Bible reading groups were "banned" in 1980, and even brothers on the Governing Body spoke out against them, it was assumed that these all had something to do with the apostasy. But there were dozens of them, and hundreds of Bethelites participated. It's true that most of the "apostates" had also participated, but the majority of participants remained in responsible positions.
    I regularly attended one in the room of a brother from Writing that often went on for three hours on Wednesday. Whenever I could, I also started attending another one after the Monday-night Watchtower study for one hour. One of these had one of the "Aid Book" team and I was questioned about it later in 1980, although I continued to do research for Brother Schroeder from 1977 until 1983. Schroeder kept a good measure of personal control over who was and was not dismissed for "apostasy" 1980 through 1983. Yet, even Brother Schroeder quietly sided with the "Aid Book" team on this same point about "type-antitype" during the 1980 crisis. My best friends in the Writing Department also included Brother Fred Rusk, who gave my wedding talk later in 1980. (I last saw and spoke to Rusk in 2013, at a funeral talk.) Rusk and Schroeder were both very strong opposers of the entire Aid Book team. But I kept friends on "both sides of the aisle."
    I don't know how easy it is to tell that the writer of the article below was asked to write in support of types and antitypes but was intentionally "subversive" or "ambiguous" in a way that would still get past the editors.
    *** w72 8/15 p. 501 God Readjusts the Thinking of His People ***
    JEHOVAH is infallible, and he is the Great Teacher and Leader of his people. (Ps. 143:10) They are fallible, and at no point do they understand all things. . . .
    Another thing that has given rise to questions is the use by Jehovah’s witnesses of parallels or prophetic types, applying these to circumstances and to groups or classes of people today. Many people who read the Bible view its accounts all as simply history, but when they begin to study with Jehovah’s witnesses a readjustment of viewpoint takes place as they see that there is more to the accounts than history.
    The question that is sometimes asked is, Did Jehovah stage that ‘dramatic’ event, so that we would have a warning now? Well, would he cause such bad things to happen? Would he maneuver them himself? No. The Christian disciple James answers: “With evil things God cannot be tried nor does he himself try anyone.” (Jas. 1:13). . . .
    We can therefore read what took place with ancient Israel and surrounding nations and know that they were just as real as our situation today and that God will act toward us according to the same principles, just as surely as he did back there. As we benefit from the record of God’s dealings with his people in the past, we experience a readjustment of viewpoint. But, of course, at times there may be points that we find difficult to grasp.
     
     
     
  2. Upvote
    Anna reacted to Melinda Mills in The spotlight effect and the extended applications   
    Shows we have one spirit.  I was thinking the same thing recently that we pin the scriptures too much to one point or aspect of the scripture.   Jehovah’s word is  deep, wide, high and long at the same time, so it can tell us many things, so we can use it as a multi-purpose  tool to do and learn many things  (2 Tim 3:16,17).  Jehovah’s spirit helps us to understand even with language limitations. Jehovah’s Word also encourages us to perceive what the will of God is. (Ephesians 5:17) Everything will not be spelled out for us.
     
     [I find your (ComfortmyPeople) language ability is wonderful.]
    The apostle Paul acknowledged this long ago as we can see at Ephesians 3:17-19.
     
    (Ephesians 3:17-19) . . . May you be rooted and established on the foundation, 18 in order that with all the holy ones you may be thoroughly able to comprehend fully what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19 and to know the love of the Christ, which surpasses knowledge, so that you may be filled with all the fullness that God gives.
     
    (Romans 11:33) O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!
     
    Jehovah is the originator of language and he has no problem helping us to understand or using his holy spirit to reveal things to us. He has used the faithful and discreet slave to feed us well over the years but the Bible is written to all of us personally as well. If Jehovah wishes to teach us personally something from a particular text who should limit that?
     
     (John 3:16) “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, so that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.
     
     (Rev 22:7) 7 Look! I am coming quickly. Happy is anyone observing the words of the prophecy of this scroll.
     
    Anyone can benefit from and apply God’s Word.
     
    I have also noted that when I pay attention to a particular scripture, seeing something in it that I had never paid attention to before, often I find that it is highlighted also by the current CO when he comes.  I will have to start writing these things down so I can give a few examples in the future.  I often forget the details but the knowledge of the times it occurred remains with me.  I am sure JWInsider and Anna would have had similar experiences.
    Look how many years we thought that only the anointed had Jehovah’s spirit.  Jehovah gives his spirit to anyone who wants to find him and serve him. We know the instance of Cornelius and his family who got it even before Peter got there and before they wee baptized.
    Really enjoyed the post and the comments of Anna and JWI.
     
  3. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Melinda Mills in Do you want to know the date of Armageddon?   
    This is why I really love the sentiments of this quote a father once said to his daughter (It was in one of the WT)
    "Plan ahead as if Armageddon won't come in your life time, but live your life as if it will come tomorrow"
  4. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Queen Esther in Did Watch Tower Teachings from Rutherford's Time Influence the "Nation of Islam"?   
    Ha! Not Olin Moyle  Just one happy family 
  5. Upvote
    Anna reacted to ComfortMyPeople in Do you want to know the date of Armageddon?   
    An unexpected visit

    Characters: Angel (A) You (Y) Narrator (N)

    N- Imagine that an angel visits you today. He wakes you up in the middle of the night and says:

    A- Jehovah granted me choose one of his servants to inform Armageddon’s date, and I’ve chosen to you.

    Y- Wonderful! What a privileged man I am! When will it be?

    A- January 1, 2025. Now, I’m going to give further information about this date of capital importance

    Y- Errr, excuse me angel, thanks for this marvelous information, but my alarm clock is set at 5 AM, and I wish to sleep. Tomorrow I will have a hard day and I need to feel awake.

    A- What a lack of appreciation! If only I had known!

    N- The angel, sorrowful and turning its back on you, is ready to depart.

    Y- Please angel, don’t feel bad. It remains 8 years. I have no savings to live without my secular work. Next month my wife has a surgery, and also I need to ponder the education of my children. You aren’t going to think I take my children off from the school all these 8 years!

     A- I think if you were more spiritual…

    Y- One moment, I’ve just applied for the pioneer next month, and with my collaboration my wife is going to start the regular next September. What’s wrong with me!

    A- And what’re your plans for next holidays? Now you know for sure the Date! Would not you rather dedicate it to preach?

    N- The angel a little bitter, you a little worried.

    Y- Well… perhaps you’re right… one moment!

    A- Yes

    Y- The brothers at Bethel, missionaries and traveling overseers, do you think they are, in general, spirituals?

    A- Of course!

    Y- And don’t have they fully conscience of the closeness of the end?

    A- Yes, I think so

    Y- And, don’t they enjoy of their holidays these years?

    A- Well, I believe this, yes.

    Y- Look. If you only had said to me this date is, let’s say, is in a few months, perhaps I could have made some arrangements. But believe me, dear angel, I love Jehovah and I’m trying make my most every day, without any date in consideration.

    N- And they both say goodbye with affection

     

    Abraham’s example

    Some emphasis added: (Genesis 12:1-4) “And Jehovah said to A′bram: “Go out from your land and away from your relatives and from the house of your father to the land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation, and I will bless you, and I will make your name great, and you will become a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, and I will curse him who calls down evil on you, and all the families of the ground will certainly be blessed by means of you.” 4 So A′bram went just as Jehovah had told him, and Lot went with him. A′bram was 75 years old when he left Ha′ran.”

    What would be your reaction if someone promises YOU all these things? Would it not be logical to expect the fulfillment of these words in your own life? Let’s continue with Abraham.

    Some emphasis added: (Genesis 13:14-18) “Jehovah said to A′bram, after Lot had separated from him: “Raise your eyes, please, and look from the place where you are, to the north and south, east and west, 15 because all the land that you see, I will give to you and your offspring as a lasting possession. 16 And I will make your offspring like the dust particles of the earth, so that if anyone could count the dust particles of the earth, then your offspring could be counted. 17 Get up, travel through the length and breadth of the land, for to you I am going to give it.” 18 So A′bram continued to live in tents”

    Again, would it not be logical to suppose for Abraham to think he will receive these rewards during the span of his life?

    Now, some years after, about ten perhaps, these words happen.

    Again, emphasis added: (Genesis 15:13-16) “Then He said to A′bram: “Know for certain that your offspring will be foreigners in a land not theirs and that the people there will enslave them and afflict them for 400 years. 14 But I will judge the nation they will serve, and after that they will go out with many goods. 15 As for you, you will go to your forefathers in peace; you will be buried at a good old age. 16 But they will return here in the fourth generation…”

    “What? What does this mean? It was assumed that I was going to get your promises in my life, and now, you’re going to say me that I’m going to die, and my reward is postponed until a very distant future, for some remote descendants.” Perhaps no one between us find this hypothetic answer odd or rare, but did Abraham felt deceived? Well, the rest of his life, very known for all of us offers a clear answer.

    Conclusion

    Did Abraham need date information to serve God with all his soul? No. Why? Because he simple loved God. And here I am, like all of you. Serving to Jehovah decades after our thoughts about when the end should come.  Because our main motivation is, simply, love.

    What I’m trying to say with the little story about the angel visiting at night and the account about some passages regarding Abraham’s life is the danger of getting quickly excited with some developments, in the world or in God’s people. When I listen to some brother saying something like “look at the news today… China, Middle East, etc., the end is near” I always answer, yes, you’re right, but I also thought to myself “the same I believed when I was a child.” These recursive ideas bother me, because always lead to disappointment. I try to share the attitude of Abraham, attempting to serve Jehovah till the end of my days with all my soul.

     

  6. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from JW Insider in The spotlight effect and the extended applications   
    You are right in many respects and this is why it is good to get into the habit of reading around a particular scripture, (the whole chapter usually) especially with scriptures which are "popular" and used over and over again and "usually" applied one way, or the way we are used to. In my opinion this is what it means to be a deep Bible student.
  7. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Candace Conti Child Molestation Case   
    You might want to show that this topic was re directed to here from this topic, so that people can follow on
    "what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow"?
  8. Upvote
    Anna reacted to ComfortMyPeople in The spotlight effect and the extended applications   
    What letter do you see in the attached  photo? If you answer is an "A" well, you are right, but partially. Did you also observe the "B" close to the upper right corner? This aims to demonstrate the "evil" (side) effect of a spotlight: anything inside the focus obscures the surrounding area. And this is my question:
    Have we, the JW put so much emphasis, for decades and decades, to the extended applications of some cherished, favorite verses till the point to obscure the more basic, beautiful and inspired meaning?
    Only two examples:
    (Proverbs 27:23) "You should know well the appearance of your flock…"
    Ask any brother around the world about the meaning of this verse. "Easy: the spiritual shepherds should be familiar with the situation and problems of the brothers in the congregation." Right, this has been always the "spotlight" we've found reading our literature, hearing in the meetings and attending several schools. But this is an extended application. Not the real use for the writer of Proverbs. And this inspired meaning is, obviously more important than our "added" point.
    Perhaps I'm wrong, but I've only read once in my life the exact meaning of the verse quoted:
     w91 8/1 p. 31 Questions From Readers *** What basic counsel is Proverbs 27:23 offering to spiritual shepherds as well as to Christians in general?
    Follow part of the article: ======================================
    "...The book of Proverbs contains many verses that stand alone as pithy statements of counsel, but Proverbs 27:23 is part of a group of verses: “You ought to know positively the appearance of your flock. Set your heart to your droves; for treasure will not be to time indefinite, nor a diadem for all generations. The green grass has departed, and the new grass has appeared, and the vegetation of the mountains has been gathered. The young rams are for your clothing, and the he-goats are the price of the field. And there is a sufficiency of goats’ milk for your food, for the food of your household, and the means of life for your girls.”—Proverbs 27:23-27.
    This inspired passage extols having a life-style marked by diligence, industriousness, simplicity, and recognition of our dependence on Jehovah. It does this by highlighting the pastoral life of an Israelite shepherd, perhaps in contrast with a flamboyant life based on business deals and quick riches...."
    "...Proverbs 27:26, 27 mentions one result of such labor—food and clothing. Granted, the description is not of fancy convenience foods or gourmet specialties, nor does it give a laborer reason to expect clothing in the latest designer style or the best material. But if he was willing to put forth effort, the shepherd and his family could obtain from the flock milk (and thus cheese), as well as wool for weaving sturdy garments.
    So the advice: “You ought to know positively the appearance of your flock” is not primarily for spiritual overseers; it is for all Christians. It underscores the value of our being content with sustenance and covering obtained by steady, diligent work,"
    ====================================== End of the quote
    Aren't these fine admonitions! I'm sad that this basic, genuine and inspired teaching remains blurred under the light power of the dozens of our "extended" applications.
    And what now? Are we without verses to encourage to our shepherds in this regard? By no means! Perhaps Acts 20:28 "Pay attention...to all the flock?" between many others.
    Any way, if we are tempted to continue with our indiscriminate custom, let's consider this wise advice:
    *** w72 8/15 p. 499 Questions That Disturb You—What Should You Do? ***
    Quote follows======================================
    However, we should not be indiscriminate and careless in applying Bible texts, remembering, rather, that the contextual application is the primary and basic one. If it is possible to use the text in a secondary or broader application in principle, it can add force to our presentation to point out to our hearers the basic contextual sense and to make clear that we are using the text in its secondary application, applying it only in principle.
    ====================================== End of the quote
    What do you think about my view? Ah, it remains another blatant example, but better for another post
    My affection to everyone, and I apologize for my English, not my mother language.

  9. Upvote
    Anna reacted to JW Insider in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    Thanks. I have never heard about opposers promulgating this. I can't see how it would add anything or take away anything from our reputation. It's not something that we as Witnesses would promote as part of our history, but it shows why it's important to keep a legal distinction that defines membership. Several denominations handle baptism very similarly.
    To help avoid too much off-topic discussion here, I've added a new question on this subject of Rutherford's influence:
     
  10. Upvote
    Anna reacted to Arauna in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    Arrogance, self-righteousness also has adverse effects on others and sometimes more devastating. IT leaves othes with feeling worthlessness and pain for being rejected. 
      YEsterday we learnt that we should rather let ourselves be wronged- this is not just regarding money - it is about the way we live.   WE need to cultivate a self-sacrificing spirit like Jesus - who gave everything he had for us.  
    When we comfort others we are comforted by the Holy Spirit... when we give we receive so much more back from others together with Jehovah's blessing.  I speak of experience.  I have given attention to those whom others avoid and have found that these people need kind attention to be healed - not avoidance.
    Self-righteousness is at war not with the person within themselves but is at war with Jehovah's Spirit.  Job fell into the sin of self-righteousness. SAtan displayed  pride - that was his sin.  
    YEs we can fight the war in ourselves- to keep ourselves pure from this world and resist eveything it offers- even resist negative attitudes displYed by others  in a kind way- not by being superior but by being humble and comforting to all... not judgmental but give  acceptance And love.
    how can we say we love God if we cannot overcome the evil by means of the love for our neighbour?
  11. Upvote
    Anna reacted to Bible Speaks in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    Anna:
    Sometimes some hide who they are, This happened to me, a respected and loved elder and pioneer was and hiding who he was to me and all. Be careful we know that Satan is trying to weaken us all and leave the worship of the true God Jehovah. His actions lead him to be DF and proved he was just hiding his bad conduct and no fears Jehovah sees those that are doing these things and hiding to others. Keep on the watch, many more will come in sheep's covering. Keep strong and focused and pray for protection from these type of predators. We are very close to the end, it will not be late! 
  12. Upvote
    Anna reacted to Arauna in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    I do not agree with this statement offered above - it is words of a man.  I have not seen a statement in the bible which sAys that we should avoid those at war with themselves.  HOw does one define the outward symptoms of being at war with yourself? WE are all at war with the fleshly part of our existence as apposed to being perfectly in line with JehovAh and his spirit - as duly noted by one of the replies.  WE must be cAreful not to judge those who have emotional issues because the bible says we must deal tenderly with those who are experiencing distress.  I can imagine the stress a person must feel when they are at war with themselves - whatever the personAl baggage that has brought this about.  
    Being deceitful,  indecisive about serving Jehovah whole-souled, being stupid (according to the bible this means that one acts outside the "knowledge of Jehovah"  and NOT the definition of being at war with yourself) now this is a different matter.  I do however  agree that we must be cAreful that  associations  do not influence us negatively. 
    Be careful of self-righteousness - this  can cause even greater dAmage in a congregation. I knew a sister who was always avoiding people becAuse they were doing things that she deemed unworthy of association.  It caused tremendous uneasiness when people were Around her and she hurt many feelings- tHis is the otherr side of the coin.  
    I did not write this to start a debate but merely do make my fellow worshipers think about their words And actions - imperfection and injustice can make us condemn where condemnation is not needed.  AN anointed sister once gave me the best advice EVER!  SHe said: when in doubt About what to do - show love.  WE can assist the weak and help strenghen those around us who are suffering and having issues.  WIth patience And love we can win And support them And help them adjust their attitude. LOve nevr fails! IT hopes all things. 
    USually the elders will guide us to mark those who need adjustment. WE should not be going around indiscriminately marking people inside the congregation.   THose outside the congregation is of course are not our associates.
     
  13. Upvote
    Anna reacted to JW Insider in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    “People at war with themselves will always cause collateral damage in the lives of those around them.” ― John Mark Green
    My favorite "poetic quote" from John Mark Green is this:
    “One by one she slew her fears, and then planted a flower garden over their graves.”
    ― John Mark Green
    But I can't find a good scripture text to go with it. There's always that passage about Jezebel and Naboth's vineyard....nah!
  14. Upvote
    Anna reacted to JW Insider in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    Or, from a different perspective . . . Be careful who you associate with. Those who are at war with themselves have a a better appreciation and empathy for those around them. (Less chance of collateral damage.)
    (Romans 7:22-25) 22 I really delight in the law of God according to the man I am within, 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body. 24 Miserable man that I am! Who will rescue me from the body undergoing this death? 25 Thanks to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So, then, with my mind I myself am a slave to God’s law, but with my flesh to sin’s law.
    (ESV) "But I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members."
     
  15. Upvote
    Anna reacted to Bible Speaks in I Do Not Associate With Deceitful Or Those That Hide Who They Are   
    Be careful who you            associate with...people 
    at war with themselves 
    will always cause collateral 
    damage in the lives of 
    those around them.....
    4 "I do not associate 
    with deceitful men,
    And I avoid those who 
    hide what they are."
            (Psalm 26:4)
              jw.org
  16. Upvote
    Anna reacted to JW Insider in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    I think that Anna is on the right track as to how Jehovah's Witnesses understand the first question to be the near equivalent of the supposed "formula" in Matthew 28:19. And therefore, the primary meaning of the second question is merely a re-iteration of the desire to be a dedicated Christian associated with the world-wide brotherhood of Jehovah's Witnesses.
    Although, I agree that it is not a "formula," I wonder what makes all the speakers at baptism talks (and/or administrators of Witness baptisms) around the world think they need to treat the Watchtower's words as an exact formula, and repeat them exactly as they have been translated by the Watch Tower Society into their local language?
    Witness, I agree with you that it's not just a coincidence that the the Father, Son, and holy spirit are mentioned in Matthew, and that Jehovah, Jesus and the spirit-directed organization are mentioned in the Watch Tower's version of a baptismal formula.
    We have already discussed how the expression "spirit-directed organization" is not meant to be limited to the earthly, visible part Jehovah's universal organization. That's from an overall doctrinal perspective. But in this particular case, I would have to agree that the addition was evidently with the earthly part of the organization in mind. I say this because I had learned that the addition was done for legal purposes.
    I don't mean that the overall purpose was legal instead of spiritual, but that the legal ability for the earthly organization to remove persons from its membership roles without fear of lawsuits or repercussions has become an important practical means to keep the earthly organization clean. (Eoin and others have already begin discussing this.)
    The idea that Jehovah directs the earthly, visible organization (through his spirit) is often stated in the Watchtower as integral to the idea of our dedication. I won't deny that most Witnesses are thinking primarily and sometimes only about the Watchtower Society when they think of the words: "spirit-directed organization." The idea reaches back to well before the "FDS"/"GB." For many years they were so blatant, they were almost embarrassing. The old version of the "Kingdom Ministry" when it was called "Bulletin" and "Informant" would sometimes include statements like, Brother Rutherford has been appointed by the Lord, and not following instructions coming from him would be like disobeying the Lord.
    I remember another one, but can't remember which issue where it said basically that if the Lord says that pioneers should make "x" hours per month, then that's what the Lord wants. (Ironic in that the hourly quotas change every few years.) In more recent times, the idea is more subtle, but ubiquitous, as the following types of examples can be multiplied hundreds of times over:
    *** w06 7/1 p. 19 They Delight to Do God’s Will ***
    Graduates Andrew and Anna said: “We dedicated our life to Jehovah. We made a promise to Jehovah to do anything he asks of us. It just so happens that Jehovah has asked us to go to Cameroon, Africa.”
    *** w01 1/15 p. 9 “A Masterpiece of a Project” ***
    “The ‘Photo-Drama’ was a masterpiece of a project, when we consider the small number of Bible Students and the proportionately small amount of finances available. It really had Jehovah’s spirit behind it!”
    *** w00 10/1 p. 29 Blessed With a Special Heritage ***
    The two months we spent in Patterson as Paul received training was the highlight of our life so far. Observing Jehovah’s earthly organization up close reaffirmed a conviction passed on to me as part of my precious spiritual heritage: This is indeed God’s organization. [Italics in original 10/1/2000 Watchtower]
    The legal reason was similar to the reason that the name "Jehovah's witnesses" was changed to "Jehovah's Witnesses" in the early 1970's. The first version without a capital "w" was purposely ambiguous, but that ambiguity could be taken advantage of in international copyright or intentional or misleading identification with those of similar names. The "Bible students" under Russell had similar problems with the various "Bible student" associations. "Allen Smith" has pointed out examples, in some of his posts. The split-offs of both Russell-styled Bible Students and Rutherford-styled Bible Students (and even Jehovah's Witnesses in a few cases) have been springing up for years. There has been a long-standing problem with dozens of such splinter groups and self-styled prophets in Africa, for example, that make use of the Watchtower publications as a foundation. Rutherford's doctrines have even been traced as a factor in the growth of the Black Muslim [Nation of Islam] movement in the United States.
    The "apostasy of 1980-1983" became a catalyst to finally adding the reference to a specific organization into the "formula." When I was baptized, this was not included, and the Watchtower had even explained why it should not be included.
     
  17. Upvote
    Anna reacted to TrueTomHarley in Activists against our brothers, in London ;-(   
    Perhaps he will continue jogging.
    It's hard to fight a megaphone. But sometimes it works against them. People say 'why is he making trouble for the Jehovah's? They're nice people.'
  18. Upvote
    Anna reacted to David Normand in Activists against our brothers, in London ;-(   
    Well, his shirt is accurate. (1 Timothy 4:8)  For bodily training is beneficial for a little; but godly devotion is beneficial for all things, as it holds promise of the life now and that which is to come. Jogging is beneficial, but even that can only prolong life for so long. Godly devotion last forever and can preserve your life forever. 
  19. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Melinda Mills in Fate/Destiny   
    It could be, if you believe there is no basis for a positive future.
  20. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from JW Insider in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    Of course it applies to child molesters
    If you are going to make these statements then please back them up with evidence. How do you know known molesters are being treated the same way as they were before they were found out? How do you know nothing is done?
    Indeed. If there is no proof of murder, drunkenness or fornication then not even the Law can do anything about it. The congregation leaves it in Jehovah's hands until there is evidence. You now the saying, "innocent until proven guilty".
    How is that policing???
  21. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Evacuated in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    Of course it applies to child molesters
    If you are going to make these statements then please back them up with evidence. How do you know known molesters are being treated the same way as they were before they were found out? How do you know nothing is done?
    Indeed. If there is no proof of murder, drunkenness or fornication then not even the Law can do anything about it. The congregation leaves it in Jehovah's hands until there is evidence. You now the saying, "innocent until proven guilty".
    How is that policing???
  22. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Melinda Mills in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    The article is looking at it from different angle to what you assume. What it is saying is that a person cannot go back on their baptism using it as an excuse that they didn't know what they were doing, therefor their baptism didn't count. There must have been cases where a baptized Witness has claimed their baptism wasn't valid in order to avoid being disfellowshipped. So what the article is saying, that if you have once made a dedication and got baptized  and now have "tired of serving Jehovah or of living a Christian way of life" and want to go and fornicate etc. you will be disfellowshipped. What it boils down to is that someone who is known in the community as being one of Jehovah's Witnesses, and is also known to be fornicating, can no longer be called one of Jehovah's Witnesses, they are held accountable not only before Jehovah but before the congregation also. However, there exist situations where a Witness has faded and stopped associating with the congregation, and is no longer known as one of Jehovah's Witnesses in the community. Neither the elder nor members of the congregation go around policing those who no longer associate and so it is very unlikely that it will discover that this person is now living an immoral life and is celebrating all the holidays. In such a situation, they will no longer be held accountable before the congregation, but of course they will remain accountable to Jehovah (Romans 13:10 -12) Living an immoral life etc. does not undo what has already been done i.e. dedication and baptism. 
    As for child baptism, Eoin has addressed that.
  23. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from Melinda Mills in what does it mean with the April 2017 study edition of the wt? Are all who were/are baptized still bound to this vow?   
    No one should get baptized and be ignorant of what they are doing, what with the 100 or so questions, and the elders going through the questions making sure the person has a clear understanding of what they are committing to.
    I suppose if someone wanted to go back on their dedication, and no longer wanting to be identified as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, it wouldn't be because of ignorance, but rather because the person changed their mind and no longer believes what they believed when they got baptized....even if they were a child.
  24. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from OtherSheep in Are the 24 Elders in Revelation the 144,000? Is the Watchtower about to drop this doctrine?   
    True. And you may be on to something!
    I remember this WT study very well, including this particular paragraph and the sentence I underscored. It was the first time that something written in the WT really bothered me. I just had this weird feeling about it, that it just didn't sound right. In my mind I asked myself how was that meant, "communicating divine truths" ? And why would the resurrected ones communicate only some divine truths, and leave others out? This whole idea made it sound like the GB were getting some kind of visions, or ideas put in their heads (by the other members of the GB who had died). This did not sound right at all since the only helper Jesus said his father would give us was the holy spirit. And we can all be the beneficiaries of that, not just the GB. And we don't get visions or dreams so why would the GB get exclusive treatment when still on earth? The only time they differ from "us" is that they have "been called to heaven", I am not aware of any scripture which indicates that the GB would "receive divine truths" by some communication from heaven. In fact they have to work hard at discerning Bible truths, as they themselves have indicated.  This whole communication idea just sounded off and out of sinc with everything else. And in any case, I do not understand why there is any relevance placed on when the first resurrection began. I am thinking, who cares? How does this affect anything else? Jehovah knows when he resurrects, why do we need to know?
    It will be interesting to see if we are given a new understanding of the identity of the 24 elders. If they are no longer seen as the 144'000, then perhaps Rev 7:13-14 will remove the need to think that the anointed in heaven are communicating with those still on earth.
    Thankfully our reasoning on many matters such as the ones you mention has become so much more reasonable. But I agree, it definitely looks like there might be some change in the pipeline and this WT study might be a kind of " trial balloon" .
    I am not sure I think this has some kind of significance. I understand this to mean simply that we shouldn't idolize them as if they were angels, because they are not.
  25. Upvote
    Anna got a reaction from JW Insider in Are the 24 Elders in Revelation the 144,000? Is the Watchtower about to drop this doctrine?   
    Hmmmm....perhaps this is why the older generation views the GB/Slave as having some special direct communication with God, tantamount to inspiration. My Mother in law said as much. I didn't want to argue with her, after all, she is 86. There just isn't any point. And this is why perhaps in recent years, especially very recently via the WT articles we have been discussing, the GB are trying to correct that concept....
    P.S. To be honest, I too held this view similar to my mother in law 20 years or so ago.
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