TrueTomHarley

This is shocking. I have no patience with this sort of thing!

This is shocking. I have no patience with this sort of thing!

Probably true, Tom. I already knew that I would probably agree with plenty of his arguments related to his current view on the FDS and higher education. But so much more that he says, has already been said in so many words over here on this forum. Some of it very recently. The areas where many of us have long defended the Witness position with respect to war, neutrality, the two different hopes of salvation, use of God's name, identifying principles of the true religion, the value of a leadership body with respect to efficiently carrying out a worldwide preaching work, etc., etc. You'd think that he came over here and picked up a few ideas, although I'm sure he had already come to these positions through the WT publications and his own experience in defending them.
On higher education, he tends to present it a bit too positively, without enough warning about some of same dangers that have hurt Witnesses, sometimes spiritually, sometimes economically. I think he is too focused on how well it worked out for himself, and perhaps schools in Norway are more serious than some of the party destinations that attract students in the United States. To him most higher education is Biblically neutral, and he tends to promote higher education for those who can make room for it.
A lot of Witnesses (remember JTR?) have complained about the "dumbing down" of study habits and the lower levels of effort put into really learning scriptural and spiritual matters for ourselves. His issues with the NWT 2013 are also identical to things that have been said here in that regard. Furuli is not terribly consistent with his favorite subjects and pet peeves, but he has managed to explain the issues in very practical terms better than I've seen before.

I could have told you that beforehand.

These are challenging times to offer nuanced views of things. Few people accept nuances. Thus, if you do not accept every premise of your opponent’s view, you are ‘Brother Watchtower’ as that silly Witness says of me. But I don’t take offense. I don’t exactly flatter her, either.
It nettles me when I see brothers gush all over ‘science’ and ‘critical thinking.’ Why should they do that? It constitutes the prime tool of our adversaries. I’m not against science. It’s great stuff. Pour me a double-shot of it. But to rely on it as the be-all and end-all is surely to court folly.
Do not scientists, for the most part, urinate all over Genesis and blood? Are we to imagine that those are the only things that they are all wet on? Yet many brothers would seem to. The GB does not, which earns them my tremendous respect. They recognize it as a tool—not valueless, but also not THE GAMECHANGER. Scientists mostly lean this way or that? Well—take note of it but don’t let it ruin your day. Tomorrow you may see the headline, “Everything You Thought You Knew About Such-and-Such is Wrong!”
There is an ex-pharma VP online who makes just that point. ‘Nobody has any money,’ he says. ‘Universities don’t  Governments don’t. Think-tanks don’t. But Pharma has lots of money. It commissions scientists from one of those penniless outfits to study this or that new drug. If the outcome if favorable to Pharma, that outfit can expect to be funded for more studies. If it is unfavorable, that outfit will never hear from Pharma again. ‘No money has changed hands,’ he says. ‘No agreements have been entered into. But everyone knows what they must do.’
The ones who shove ‘science‘ down everyone’s throats are not necessarily even scientists, I am convinced, but are a second buttressing and uninvited layer that I call ‘scientist-philosopher-atheist-cheerleaders.’ Scientists just go about doing science, and many of them see no contradiction between science and the spiritual world—they are two different ways of examining things, and ‘one key does not unlock all.’
People who rail on about science tend to not notice when money hijacks their science, as in the Pharma example above. Scientists have to eat, too. They are also stubborn like anyone else—slow to yield to new data. They are not more so than others, but neither on balance are they less. One of the downfalls of ‘critical thinking’ is that those who espouse it most vehemently are prone to assume that they have a lock on the stuff.
As to Rulf—I’m not opposed to him. If he thinks that he will be DFed, as he has stated—well, who am I to argue? But I will accept it only when I see it. Brothers in charge have something that they did not have 40 years ago. They have a prior example to look at and to see how that worked out. They may or may not go a similar route. I’ll get my head around it regardless of how they go, but I won’t start until they go there.
Yes. And I note and agree that you put them as questions, not statements.

Same initials? Wait until Kos gets ahold of that one.

Of course. The reason that you give money to a religious organization is that you believe in and want to further their work. You don’t give money thinking it is a rainy-day fund or an insurance policy. That’s what investments and insurance companies are for. Everyone knows this, even Witness. The reason she carries on as she does is that she does not like the religious work Witnesses do and would like to hinder it.
In fact, there is coordinated relief for disaster circumstances, but for the most part, it is Christians sharing with each other, same as was detailed a few times in the NT record—sometimes the organization facilitated or coordinated such relief.
This USDA program came into existence because crops are being wasted as restaurant supply lines are cut. Everyone in the US has heard such reports. So here is an effort to redirect foodstuffs and nonprofits help them realize their goal of distribution. On balance, Jehovah’s Witnesses contribute to the public till more than most—they don’t try to evade responsibilities—while drawing on it less. They certainly are a suitable candidate for the program.

Relax. You’ve done nothing wrong (this time).
Are you kidding me? He has more aliases than I do.
Imagine my rotten l**k. Here I have almost succeeded in the reappearance of the three amigos—Witness, Ann, and JTR—the original three of the thread the Librarian assigned to me, ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates,’ which I resisted because i didn’t want the job, but when my resistance proved futile, I warmed to the task and went after them with such ferocity that the same Admin that put me on it took me off—and many months later it became inspiration for my fourth book, ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates!’
https://www.smashwords.com/books/view/917311
Ann suddenly reappears and what happens? JTR disappears to do penance! JTR, who never was apostate in many ways but who so closely resembled one that I couldn’t tell the difference. He’s gone!—only days before the story breaks that may or may not fit so nicely into ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates—Round 2’ should such a book come about.
Ann O’Maly, who is herself my inspiration of Top Cat O’Malihan—an alias I trotted out to mess with than pretentious buffoon AlanH—Ann herself appears as JTR disappears. I tell you, it is not right.
Incidentally, the cat in Top Cat’s profile photo is dead. It was my cat but when I took my daughter’s dog in because she was moving away as a need-greater—well, the dog has a thing about chasing cats. So I took the cat to my Dad’s house, who was just coming down with dementia and in time I stayed with him for a few months. He figured that it was one of the barn cats that he grew up with and kept leaving it saucers of milk around the house, just as he had done in his boyhood with the other barn cats. “Great, Pop!” I would mutter. “Here I want to pour myself a bowl of cereal and I can’t because you have put all the milk out in a dozen bowls for the cat—who never touches it!”
The cat was old by the time I took it to my Dad’s. It was a great comfort for him and would sit on his lap. He was looking for it one day and I knew he would not find it. It had crawled under the basement workbench, a place that it had never been before, to die. There really is something to the expression, ‘Crawl under a rock and die.”

Grumble grumble grumble

Speaking of Kosonen, a few things remind me of him, too. Even the tone of offering unheeded "correction" but also this idea Furuli has:
There is also a need for an
independent group of elders to review all the human commandments that
the GB has invented and to remove those that are not based on the Bible,
and which have caused harm for individual Witnesses.
But Furuli's book is starting to sound more like a Raymond Franz sequel (on those few points where they agree). Comparisons between the organizational hierarchy and the Catholic Church are even stronger here than in Franz' books. He even seems to acknowledge (or idealize) that there was a short period of time that immediately followed when R.Franz presented the scriptural meaning of elder, etc., to Knorr and FW Franz, and they humbly accepted the loss of power and authority.
I could go on an on with commentary, but I'll try to save it until I'm finished. Else I won't finish.

Please notify what you think that could be.

Usually you have to read a book before you comment on what it proves

This is not a promising sign. How does he know they refuse to do it? 
I wrote to them once, too, about my work—which does not by any stretch of the imagination take shots at them. I’ve not heard back. That doesn’t mean they ‘refuse.’ The verb reeks too much of adversarial intent.
Perhaps at this very moment, the Bethel brothers have dropped all other considerations to write me a nice little letter.
Shultz and de Vienne submitted their work to Bethel. They write that it was received ‘without comment.’ That is not the same as ‘refuse’ and they only speculated as to why their book met with silence.

I would like to. Had I contact information, I would. It is even possible I did communicate with him once through some sort of channel, but I forget. 
I am curious as to how things will be worded. Is it a ‘call to arms’ which is how the Reddit people will certain see it? Or is it more a personal ‘wish list’? Is it a call to ‘abandon ship’? It doesn’t appear to be, especially since there is no other ship to take its place and even an imperfect ship beats treading water. 
He is a scholar. Is he a scholar AND a doer, or has he just become a scholar? That will surely have a bearing. The physical ministry grounds a person—leave it at your own spiritual peril.
The people of higher education generally assume ‘takeover rights.’ Does he? It will make a difference. To my mind, Christianity emerged as a ‘working class’ religion, and it always remained so. You know the verses: ‘uneducated and ordinary’, ‘not many wise in a fleshly way, powerful, of noble birth’, ‘hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones’ so as to ‘reveal them to babes’. 
If the tone of his book recognizes these verses, my guess is that he is fine. If the tone is, ‘Time to let the smart people take over’, there could be a problem. It is when the ‘smart people took over‘ in the first century that Christianity strayed so far from its roots as to be unrecognizable. Reddit, always eager for a blowup, will frame it as ‘Battle of the Titans’ with sure dire consequences to one or the other. That doesn’t mean that he does.
Granted, as to higher education, the trouble with not having too much of it is that one finds it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, and is thus tempted to dismiss it all as chaff. But there is a difference between saying that this or that policy has a downside, which the present brothers will probably agree with, and saying that we ought to have someone’s head on a platter, which they will not. What side does he come down on?
 
 

Of course. Obviously. What!—you think it is right that Christians should be followers of men? I think you mutter just for the sake of muttering.
God’s laws and principles are to be found in the Bible. That is where the guidance and boundaries are. That is where members are to go so as to grow spiritually. The hope is that they should grow to maturity, make decisions per God’s laws and principles, and do not just say, “What do you think, Srecko, so I can think just like you?”

People want so badly to be followers of men. “I don’t care what reasoning has been done or what counsel has been given. I want to know what you think.” 
Elders resist this because they are not trying to make their very own disciples. 
“For when one says, “I belong to Paul,” but another says, “I to A·polʹlos,” are you not acting like mere men? 5 What, then, is A·polʹlos? Yes, what is Paul? Ministers through whom you became believers, just as the Lord granted each one.  6 I planted, A·polʹlos watered, but God kept making it grow,  7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow.”

No sooner had I posted this:
than Witness posted this:
It is a very helpful link explaining the program.
Now, Witness never ever posts things just to be helpful. In every case, she posts to denigrate her rivals the GB and to assure all that she can do things better. So why does she post this helpful link here?
Everyone knows her m.o. She is in a panic that God’s organization might get credit for this generosity and she wants to make sure that they don’t. She wants to make clear that this is a GOVERNMENT program, NOT a JehovahsWitness program, and that people SHOULD NOT credit her rivals with generosity. 
Chill, you old battle axe, don’t worry about it. I plainly said that it was a USDA program for which I was grateful. USDA is government. Relax. I wasn’t giving your rivals the credit. I even said it represented a “Go to Donald” and I lament that JTR was no longer around, for I suspected that might get him going. The only credit I gave to the elders was for distributing the items.
But does this prompt distribution not show the value of organization, organization that she says ‘Who needs it?’ Why does the USDA do it this way—distribute to non-profits? Because they have a ton of aid to distribute and if they do it all at government facilities the lines will be two miles long. They also face the challenge of letting potential recipients know. So they distribute to non-profits, taking advantage of the communication and distribution channels that they know will exist there.
Will everyone agree here that NOBODY will do this more effectively than Jehovah’s Witnesses? There may be some to do it AS effectively, but nobody will beat them at it. Organizations where all members are known and readily found and where there exist messengers to deliver foodstuffs to each and every one of them cannot be an everyday thing.
My wife and I received a package Saturday around 2PM, after hearing reports of such a program that morning. I can well imagine that there were churches whose members learned of it Sunday morning at services, assuming that they happened to be there, and if they weren’t—too bad. It is not my aim to put them down—frankly I think we do far too much of putting church people down—It is only to point out that the attention of the JW organization to each member is not replicated everywhere. Even where the will exists, the means may not—you have to have volunteers to quickly distribute. There will be some outfits, I have no doubt, that are attentive to those in need and will connect promptly to bring aid. But it will not be universal, and in some cases It will break down completely since it was never built up.
It’s produce. It can’t sit around for days. It has to be handed out to each individual promptly. Members of the Witness community are broken down into service meeting groups, each under the oversight of one or more shepherds, who will know of any among them who is especially needy, and can therefore be prioritized. Apparently, there was plenty for all this time, but that may not always be so, and the elders will know how to best apportion. They are prepared to organize internal relief as was done in the 2nd chapter of Acts—coordinate members sharing with members—so that nobody is overlooked. In this case, the aid came from outside—a provision of Caesar (probably not replicated in too many countries)—and all there was to do was to distribute it promptly. I am very grateful to the government that is attentive to physical needs. Nonetheless, much of it would fall flat without proper expedition.
And Witness says ‘Who needs organization?’ Is she nuts? This is why you need it. This is where, not only it is needed, but you draw yourself as close to it as possible so there will be no question that you are a part of it. You become one of the embers that knows enough to pull toward the main fire so as to remain embers. You don’t pull away from the fire so that, in time, nobody, including yourself, really knows it you are an ember or not.
“Be sure to tune in to the WomanfromtheHills broadcast at 2 PM on Facebook for a discussion which will be the same as last week’s discussion—how my rivals are doing it all wrong and I can do better. Oh—and are you physically hungry? I think there is a government center somewhere in your area where they are handing out food. Get in queue. The line is only two hours in the sun. It may be that you will get some produce before it wilts and you can still be back in time to hear my address on how the Great Eight are good for nothing.”

Usually you have to read a book before you comment on what it proves

This is not a promising sign. How does he know they refuse to do it? 
I wrote to them once, too, about my work—which does not by any stretch of the imagination take shots at them. I’ve not heard back. That doesn’t mean they ‘refuse.’ The verb reeks too much of adversarial intent.
Perhaps at this very moment, the Bethel brothers have dropped all other considerations to write me a nice little letter.
Shultz and de Vienne submitted their work to Bethel. They write that it was received ‘without comment.’ That is not the same as ‘refuse’ and they only speculated as to why their book met with silence.

I would like to. Had I contact information, I would. It is even possible I did communicate with him once through some sort of channel, but I forget. 
I am curious as to how things will be worded. Is it a ‘call to arms’ which is how the Reddit people will certain see it? Or is it more a personal ‘wish list’? Is it a call to ‘abandon ship’? It doesn’t appear to be, especially since there is no other ship to take its place and even an imperfect ship beats treading water. 
He is a scholar. Is he a scholar AND a doer, or has he just become a scholar? That will surely have a bearing. The physical ministry grounds a person—leave it at your own spiritual peril.
The people of higher education generally assume ‘takeover rights.’ Does he? It will make a difference. To my mind, Christianity emerged as a ‘working class’ religion, and it always remained so. You know the verses: ‘uneducated and ordinary’, ‘not many wise in a fleshly way, powerful, of noble birth’, ‘hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones’ so as to ‘reveal them to babes’. 
If the tone of his book recognizes these verses, my guess is that he is fine. If the tone is, ‘Time to let the smart people take over’, there could be a problem. It is when the ‘smart people took over‘ in the first century that Christianity strayed so far from its roots as to be unrecognizable. Reddit, always eager for a blowup, will frame it as ‘Battle of the Titans’ with sure dire consequences to one or the other. That doesn’t mean that he does.
Granted, as to higher education, the trouble with not having too much of it is that one finds it difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, and is thus tempted to dismiss it all as chaff. But there is a difference between saying that this or that policy has a downside, which the present brothers will probably agree with, and saying that we ought to have someone’s head on a platter, which they will not. What side does he come down on?
 
 

Get him to send me a free copy. He can have a free one of two of my works, ‘Dear Mr. Putin - Jehovah’s Witnesses Write Russia’ and ‘TrueTom vs the Apostates’ on Smashwords. In fact, everyone can. I should have one of his. 
Get on it, will you?

Well well well. A 22lbs produce pack from the USDA. Apparantly all non-profits received a large supply to distribute. I’m very grateful. Elders distributed to the congregation members. But will this become a—gasp!— ‘Go to Donald’ type of thing?
Now I really miss JTR! I would love to hear his input here. But he is doing penance for “chattering about us with wicked words.” He’ll get that cleaned up, and be back soon, perhaps.

He made it all public previously.
These are your words, not mine. I am not casting him anywhere. I am very glad to see he re-evaluating some choices he has made so that Nobody Else does.
I do. He doesn’t buy into your claptrap that you can remain close to Jehovah while being at serious odds with his earthly organization. Thinking hit the nail on the head—he is REAL. If you are bringing your gift to the altar and you recall that your brother has something against you due to the outrageous things you have said, first make peace with your brother, and then offer up your gift. I imagine that this is what he is doing now.
 

Well, he certainly was that.
Offhand, I think you guys are nuts (not you specifically, Thinking) He lost all his kids—none will speak with him. And for what? So as to spread every opposition taunt and insult about the earthly organization that Witness and 4Jah and Srecko and Shiwiiiiiiiiiiiiiii and Matthew4 5784 are perfectly content and capable to spread? That is worth losing your family for?
I, for one, am delighted if he is recalibrating, because by doing so he may reasonably hope to reconcile himself to his family again, not to mention the greater brotherhood. Fear not, there is no danger of his becoming “Brother Watchtower,” as he put it. And, to be sure, I would prefer it if he continued with a modified parousia here rather than vanishing completely, for I will miss the guy. But sometimes in changing course one must make a complete break. I say that I am going to cease interacting with any of the villains, but then I come across that GIF of Kirk and the Gorn and it is curtains for me. Sometimes you just have to turn things off.
I both like and admire when someone is willing to call a spade a spade. But calling a heart, a diamond, and a club a spade as well is too much. Is he readjusting his life to become not so breathtakingly disrespectful of those struggling with their own imperfections to take the lead in the Christian work? Good. It is not such a horrible thing to allow oneself to be molded by discipline, particularly when it comes of his own accord, which it obviously did. 
ObiWan seemed to have disappeared. So did Gandalf. But they both came back much improved for their disappearance. Maybe the same here someday.

Maybe I have a thing for sappy endings, but I like to think it is one of those things where If you seek Jehovah, even if you have gone off track, seek righteousness, and seek meekness, then probably it will turn out just fine in the end.
I trust it will work out that way and I count it a good thing, even if a temporary loss here.