Srecko Sostar

In my opinion, many things about "conscience" are problematic and causing questions. If it was original idea from God, when created human, to give to them that "conscience" as reliable instrument for making correct thoughts and deeds in ones life, than this have to be Unique thing and Only way for people how to live the life. In the meantime, from first days of human until now, we built empire of laws and rules, commands and similar. Why? To regulate people life in some society. By this we silently agree with conclusion how human conscience is not proper Divine instrument which is adequate to resolve things in mutual dealings, interactions between people. Even JHVH contribute to list of Law about what is forbidden and what is obligated. By such events, "freedom of conscience" was came under power of Ideology (Doctrine) described in The Law. Similar situation is also in JWORG. It can't be different. Idea of conscience in Society is in that range too. You can/may have your conscience, but your conscience have to be Trained and Guided by Bible Principles. What are Bible Principles? We (GBFDS) are authorized to explain you how looks and what are Bible Principles. So, your conscience are not any more Divine Instrument given by God, but Learned Behavior in particular group, society. Even in theoretically, religiously given explanation given to "worldly people" how you reject blood, flag salute, military service etc. because of your "Bible trained conscience" that is not as it was said that way. Because, here we have Ideology Law, Doctrine as fundamental stone mark for your choice. Your conscience as private belonging is submitted to One Idea (religious, political, social...). In such circumstances (rough, hard, under pressure) it is not our Conscience that giving Resistance, but our Knowledge about issue and/or our Membership to particular ideology or group. This Chile information's about Society and Conscience Matter are explainable in this frame of how society working and modeling or remodeling members conscience, builds and crashes ideology.

If it is said in this way, it is not so surprising to be true. Some "clever" (read - spirit guided) individual/s from (??? HQ, Chile Betel, ...or somewhere else) found the new way how to run "theocratic warfare strategy". Inventive idea, for sure, but revealing to all of us, how deep some people are ready to go in manipulative behavior. Lies are untruths told for selfish reasons and which work injury to others. Satan told a lie to Eve that worked great harm to her and all the human race. Ananias and Sapphira told lies for selfish reasons. But hiding the truth, which he is not entitled to know, from an enemy does not harm him, especially when he would use such information to harm others who are innocent...The only way they can fulfill the command to preach the good news of God’s kingdom is by use of theocratic war strategy. By underground methods....Today God’s servants are engaged in a warfare, a spiritual, theocratic warfare, a warfare ordered by God against wicked spirit forces and against false teachings. God’s servants are sent forth as sheep among wolves and therefore need to exercise the extreme caution of serpents so as to protect properly the interests of God’s kingdom committed to them. At all times they must be very careful not to divulge any information to the enemy that he could use to hamper the preaching work. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1957327

Yes Anna, probably "wind of change" introduce new view on beard issue. So, "my truth" about it till the 2015, the year of my leaving JW, was true also. :))

It is known to me too how congregations (read elders) in the same town have different views about same things. Wearing suits or not in summer time, long or short shirt sleeve, organized excursions to the assembly or nothing similar, whether the party is organized in a private house or brothers and sister would like to rent some place, beard you mentioned is mostly forbidden in every cong., or if you (not you but some bro :))) want to have it such person is almost less then sister,because sister can have presentation on stage, beard man not. Wearing a beard, for example, was/is in fact doctrinal matter,not just local, folkloric issue, because that was mentioned in study editions of Wt magazine and similar internal publication for week meetings. I just have unproven assumption how this issue was from Russel - Rutherford period. And dragging it to this days. Flag issue was raised to highly doctrinal matter because of significance for Neutrality Issue. And it is General Issue and not just Local Elders Dilemma. In this i have little different view than You. If elders by decision they made stumble congregant or more than one it is too long for waiting 6 or more months to solve matter. Bible say "before sun went down" aka sunset :))) :)))))) too many of them are blind and deaf and mute, only humans but on powerful position. Haha, complains comes to their ears because of whistlers. Thanks for correspondence.

You gave strong evidence of your inside attitude and standpoint. Must be neutrality issue reasoning.

Fine explanation for sure. You are anti communist but not anti capitalist ? :))

Ok Billy, if this scenario is working in your imagination i have nothing against. But, give evidence that Elders Body of particular KH report this "trespassing" and "unauthorized access to building" to Secular Authority or at least that they have documents that such vandalism was happened. Because that would exactly been the case if your Explanation is true. But take in consideration how Elders Body in LACK of TWO WITNESSES perhaps would DROP the CASE in JHVH hand to resolve issue with flag and not want to involve Police in this the mysterious appearance of the flag. hehe :))

As far as i know, all written materials (read dissemination of "spiritual food" and Instructions Letters as well) from HQ in USA to all other Bethels around the world are in English language. Why? Because every Bethel in some country that cover one or several language territory, has own Translation Department or at least Volunteers who Translate from English to domestic language. Zagreb Bethel has Translation Department too and I Personally know many Bro and Sis from Past Time to This Time who served and serving in TRANSLATION FROM ENGLISH TOO CROATIAN language. Billy, Billy :))))))))

Thanks for respond and expressed thoughts. I am aware that about some issues, elder body bring that in front congregation (and suggesting expected outcome too) and about some other they alone making decision as in this question. So we can ask question: what kind of arrangement is in Congregation, Is it Hierarchy by Position and Duties, Is it Democracy with votes, Is it Theocracy and God's spirit is power who guide personal and collective decision on some higher level , or is it something else? I ask this, because some issues in congregation are handled exactly by Votes of all baptized congregants. In the same time there is also questions that is matter of interest for all members but elders body not making matter public, to make Resolution, but they push own decision. This i see as discrepancy and intended changing of rules of those who have power when they see it is in their "interest" or if they perhaps not have "faith" in members. In last sentence you mentioned how they will take in account conscience of others. This is possible to found or to get to know by; Voting system or by Referendum or by some sort of Survey. Letter from HQ say nothing about this, but put on elders body exclusivity to decide. Well again, what sort of system is Congregation? Religious/democracy shape where people sometimes have privilege to vote and sometimes they don't? Management established by WT HQ in Elders body structure? Theocratic structure where all persons making unite decision UNDER lead of holy spirit? Or something else?

Letter explained how Collective Conscience of Elders make Decision to Put or Not to Put Flag on KH in Chile. So, nobody asked Bro and Sis of particular congregation? Interesting. No Resolution regard Flag? But Collective Conscience of Elders is Imperative? This makes old-new aspect on JWORG. Who and what RUN your decisions? Your Natural/Artificial Conscience? JW Collective Conscience? Elders Body Conscience? GB Conscience? WT Lawyers Conscience? ....and similar.

Found this letter to elders. Is it fake?

Please behave yourself !! My name is Srecko Sostar. If you not change your arrogance and stop calling me with name/s that is/are not mine i will report you to people who run this forum! OK? Perhaps larger font and different color helps more ....)))) Please behave yourself !! My name is Srecko Sostar. If you not change your arrogance and stop calling me with name/s that is/are not mine i will report you to people who run this forum! OK?

You will be fined 240,000 pesos (about 352 US dollars) if you don't put the Chilean flag in a visible place. || Independence Day - https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/9h4zzx/you_will_be_fined_240000_pesos_about_352_us/ WT decided not to pay cca $ 352 but asking from members not to stand up while national anthem is playing. Double standards?

???? when that happened please Or you confused, opposers breaking into, with law fines if they not put flag on building?

Canada has many symbols. There may be some other symbol appearing in their Betel. Why stop at the inuksuk statue? But there is something else what we can think about as idols, idolatry, worshiping, hidden message, changed/twisted meaning. In verse quoted above one special terminology was introduced by Jesus. Word Helper or helper is equivalent for Holy Spirit of holy spirit. HE will teach You and you. The Governing Body entrusts much to its helpers and appreciates the fine service performed by these loyal, hardworking brothers. - https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20151015/helpers-governing-body-committees/ It is interesting how WTJWORG find it adequate to give THIS name/etiquette/title to humans who "helping" GB members. Because GB members strongly claiming how they are NOT inspired by Spirit (in other simple words, Spirit NOT teaching them) but that they are "guided", it is significant and not far from reality how substitution for teaching from REAL, GENUINE holy spirit which source is in God, is TRANSFERRED to Artificial "holy spirits" that resides in, it's situated in Human called "GB Helper/s". If one of meaning for Inuksuk Statue is to point the way to somewhere, or to correct your way, than this WT invention, from 1992 , is very seriously entering in the domain, radius of idolatry and worshiping of idols. How comes to that? Because Helpers are males appointed (not by HS, but by GB) to serve in various (6) Committees, which decisions, instructions and marking they way how "worshiping God has to look" is not under INFLUENCE, GUIDING, TEACHING of holy spirit as ONLY HELPER PROMISED BY JESUS, but under Human Helpers spirit. Who/whom JW member obey? Worshiping? JW member worshiping those or that whom or what he listening and OBEY. If you obey human person, in final moment you worshiping him, willingly (deceived or by own choice) or by force. If you obey your own idea of something or about someone, you worship your own idol created in you/yourself.

WT is 140 years in wilderness now. All that period they "rowing", from 1879 - 2019, as G.L. proclaimed on JWTV IF WTBTS IS God's chosen nation, they have not much hope and chance to survive. Think a little about history lessons and experience of Old Israel Nation. Their Nation and later Kingdom was always in some problems. Civil Wars inside and Wars on boarders. Always turbulent problems about worshiping, idolatry, morality. Alliances with other nations and subordination to other superpowers. Exiles and re turnings. Losing Kingdom and Land. Repeatedly rejected by God. What WTBTS inc. have that is above this all? Above the historical and spiritual legacy that this organization claim of self to have as heritage all way along in past to/from Jesus and Abraham?

WT publications shows how JW people have to be obedient to secular law but with exceptions. Disobedience to Secular Law is right way in two cases: If God forbid something or command something different than Secular Law. And second is, if your Conscience told you to do or not to do no matter what is obligated by Secular Law. But WT publications going further to explain to their readers how Your Conscience is not trustful, so it is not good to listen conscience which is not trained by Bible. How person training his conscience? By reading Bible. But reading Bible alone is not enough.Quote: - What does this illustrate? That our private reading of the Bible is not enough. Jehovah, by his spirit, uses the faithful and discreet slave class to help us to understand his Word at the right time. How is this done? - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2002883#h=22 Well, take then in consideration main thing in this issue - Listening God and what He say you should doing. But here we have again the same problem. WHO will explain you what God teaching people. Again, you need Class of People aka GBFDS Class who will told you, interpret You, what is God Will for You. Enjoy. In France, for example, people are generally reasonable and fair-minded. However, a few opposers have promoted laws aimed at crippling the Kingdom work. How have Jehovah’s Witnesses there reacted? They have intensified their activity in the field as never before and with thrilling results. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005925 But how far does this subjection to political authorities go? Is it unlimited? Is obedience to human law even more important than obedience to the law of God? Certainly not! Notice that in the scripture just quoted the “compelling reason” for obedience is said to include “your conscience.” So, one’s conscience is not to be ignored, especially if that conscience has been trained by the Word of God. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101968018 Thus, your conscience is designed to enable you to evaluate situations, make right choices, and judge yourself on the choices you have made. But can you trust it?...So it is wise to listen to your conscience. But it is wiser still to compare all that we do with God’s will as revealed in his Word. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101993489 Because our work was banned, the brothers needed to be alert when witnessing.....We often started conversations with those who did not support the Communist government—the so-called dissidents—who tended to be more open-minded.” - https://wol.jw.org/ase/wol/d/r266/lp-asl/202011198 Every law and statute that is in harmony with righteousness the true Christians will obey in an exemplary fashion. But any law and demand made in conflict with the superior laws and commandments of God they will not obey, for that would mean to render to “Caesar” what belongs to God. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1950841 We obey the government because that is what God wants us to do. But if we are told to do something that God says we should not do, what should we say?— We should say what the apostles said to the high priest: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102003048 We accept Jehovah’s authority and obey him even if we do not fully understand the reason for some requirement set out in his Word. This is not credulity; it is trust. It reflects heartfelt confidence that Jehovah knows what is good for us.... In accepting Jehovah’s authority, we need to guard against an independent spirit. A haughty attitude can cause us to feel that we do not need guidance from anyone. For example, we might resist counsel given by those taking the lead among God’s people. God has established an arrangement by which a faithful and discreet slave class provides spiritual food at the proper time....14 Accepting Jehovah’s authority involves responding to counsel based on his Word. For example, the faithful and discreet slave class has been admonishing us to “stay awake and keep our senses.”...Spiritual food from the faithful and discreet slave class is disseminated to local congregations by appointed elders. The Bible admonishes us: “Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.” (Heb. 13:17) Does this mean that congregation elders are infallible? Of course not! God sees their imperfections more clearly than any human can. Still, he expects us to be submissive. Cooperating with the elders, even though they are imperfect, gives evidence that we accept Jehovah’s authority. - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2008451

No i am not that one who suggesting this. :)) WT publications openly using some Bible verses about that how JW member must listening Bible and God more than Secular Government. In other words, with life examples in publications, they (GB) supporting disobedience to Human Laws made by Secular Authority. In next step of this doctrine is idea, how WTJWorg organization is only organization that is guided by God and how members have to listen GB aka FDS who are God's channel of communication, Represents, Mediators between God (Jesus) and His servants aka JW members here on Earth. In next step, GB clearly say how they alone are only group who are appointed from God to run this Organization and make explanation about Bible and doctrines and instructions about that how worshiping in daily life should be look like. Who push whose and what Ideology on people? Systematically and Organizationally.

Yes Anna, many of materials are available for public reading. Some other information, documents and guiding instructions are not. If you are good with some elder in cong. ask him, for example, what part (does it exist) of Letter to congregations from WT are for reading before all members and what part of that same letter is only for elders.

@BillyTheKid46 The question before us is never whether or not to legislate morality, but which moral system ought to be made legally binding. Do you suggest how JW moral system aka Religious System of WT Corporation is exactly that one which need to be legally binding for all? Because, as few WTJWorg defenders suggest us here, exactly That One (written in WTJWorg publications and other Not Public documents aka "For Elders Eyes Only" books and memos, letters from HQ, with Rules, Laws and Procedures how to deal with Sinners, Disobedient One, Dissidents and other Hostile Elements in Congregations, is The Best what exist in this World ?

Was that something about how Jesus gave life for sinners? And for His Friends too? GB friends are JW members? Are they? But they "sold" them to Russian Government, and now they have Legal Battles about multi millions worth Real Estate that was Confiscated. 2 quotes from JWorg newsroom: 1) Court to Hear Appeal Against Russian Government Seizure of Witnesses’ National Office 2) Philip Brumley, General Counsel for Jehovah’s Witnesses, stated: “Jehovah’s Witnesses around the world are greatly disturbed by the harsh persecution of their fellow believers in Russia. Jehovah’s Witnesses are confronting the same type of repression today as they suffered under the Communist regime. In 1) we see how WTinc. is so worried about Material Things, because they are Owners. In 2) we see nothing about JW Neutrality. Bro Brumley using POLITICAL ETIQUETTE when speaking about Legal Matters and JW members by - quote: Jehovah’s Witnesses are confronting the same type of repression today as they suffered under the Communist regime. How can be that one of top lawyer, in fact General Counsel for JW, who is elder, shepherd, believer, who supposed to be POLITICALLY NEUTRAL, using comparison of late political system with today political system. What COMMUNISM have with JW Church today? What Russia today have with JW Church? What USA have with JW Church? What every and any country with particular political ideology have with JW Church? JW Church and followers considers themselves as Separate Organization and Nation far away of any political way of expressions. Brumley's political standpoint in quote is far away of Jesus way how to deal with "politics" and secular governments. Brumley using Political Colors in aspiration to talking bad about Russian Government, Russian Courts, secular Russian People. WHO gave Brumley right to speak about political aspects in one country? Why Brumley using Communism Ideology as HIS EXPLANATION why WTJWorg have PROBLEMS in this country? Why he was not braver and picturing situation with Nazi Germany period of suppressing JW. Hitler has done terrible things to many people. Does Brumley consider USA and Western Democracies as Good political system? Because USA Courts not seized WTJWorg Real Estate.... yet. And what when they do that? Would GB proclaim: Armageddon comes and we have to go to Heaven?

??? I don't know those men, but i know You. hehehe Thanks for kind words, BUT what this have with "elders private thoughts on buying milk, going to pick up kid in school", or similar useless NOTES inside/between other notes about Child molestation cases before Court or before WT elders? If your elders making such useless notes in investigation or judicial process inside congregation, that would be of no help or benefit for victims, maybe only for accused one. When WT elders serves in parallel (illegal) juridical system inside One and Only Legal State Juridical System, that is the problem. It is not "problem" do i know more or less or nothing about US or EU laws. WT top lawyers in Warwick should, must know that detail. Elders in WTinc. which is in fact Private Entrepreneurship-Enterprise in the name of God, should to learn how their working specter inside The Church is about spiritual and doctrinal issues of members. Things that are Covered by Secular laws (in this topic that is sex abuse inside WT or any other institution) should be given to Secular authority to handle.

Excellent answer !

Excellent question !

Priests would be added to the list of professions if the legal changes are accepted. Justice is slow but sometimes it happens. ;))