Srecko Sostar

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” According to this report in Genesis, situation described speaks differently. After, in NT, we see other sort of feelings and emotions for human. Do not forget how female was created in the image of God. So yes, perhaps it is not far away from your observation that sometimes God (has right to) react as "overemotional female" and Genesis 6:6,7 is exactly what was happened . :)) If He want to destroy fallen angels who materialized and their offspring of giants who made evil things, what was so difficult for Him to be selective in punishment? JW people have expectation how that will happen in Armageddon - selective destruction. And Noah Days are used as example of why and how God will act in Armageddon, but without water (flood). Initial rebellion started with "snake" aka devil. Continue with First People. At what stage were the other angels while this was happening, there is no record of it. It is not until Noah's day that angels who longed for earthly pleasures are described. Their action does not say that they rebelled against God in the way that the devil did. Their motives were different. They did not say that God was lying, as the serpent said. They did not promise anyone that they would be like gods. They didn't say how people will not dye if act independently from God. Their rebellion had different reasons. Perhaps what they saw happening in Eden and how satan goes unpunished for his insolence was an additional motive for them to indulge in illicit behavior as well. In fact, when the Bible says that evil multiplies because transgressors are not punished immediately, and that they therefore continue to do evil, then there is a great responsibility on God Himself who failed to punish the guilty who can be punished by none other than Him. For, it was not just about human hearts boiling to do evil, but about the hearts of angels. When the sentence for a crime is not quickly carried out, people’s hearts are filled with schemes to do wrong - Eccl 8

JHVH was surprised in several situations. In Eden, after Adam and Eve disappointed Him so much. After, Genesis said: And the LORD regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. A person who knows what to expect from others would not be in such a difficult emotional state, so that like God, he begins to destroy everything he has created, nature, animals and people. WTJWorg try to explain all God's actions with "love". If he destroy wicked people that is because of love. If he not want to destroy wicked people that is because of love, again. If he allow injustice and suffer, that is because of love. If he destroy devil that is because because of love and because of "universal issue". Well, it seems how "universal issue" is also responsible for God's passivity in time before Eden and in Eden. Because, devil rebellion not started in Eden, for sure. According to the WTJWorg interpretation, nowhere in the universe is there life except on Earth and around a God surrounded by angels. Thus, life is concentrated, according to GB, in only two "locations". This very knowledge limits the very thesis of the "universal issue," and gives the possibility that God did not have such a great need to delay the punishment of transgressors of his law. After all, he punished Adam and Eve with death. What prevented him from treating the rebellious angels in the same way? A different law? A different attitude towards angels compared to people? Are angels just as intellectually limited as humans, so that God should have given them time to prove that the devil was wrong? They see God every day, so they don’t need faith like people do, to believe in an invisible God and what happened in history. People is expected to believe in events that happened before their lives or even in their life time. How to understand the absurd fact that God "implanted" in animals the "fear of man" (generally speaking), but no mosquito is afraid of any man, but persistently wants to drink his blood? Likewise, it is difficult to understand that there is a need for imperfect humans and perfect angels to contribute to the "universal issue", the answer to which has long been known to God. For, every human being does not have the ability to experientially observe the past to which he has not witnessed. And therefore he does not know who said and did what and why. So, he cannot give an answer for another, but only for himself. We cannot answer the question of whether God has the right to rule or not. We only give our "verbal" consent to the authority of one or the other. And that, too, is only of symbolic significance, because our consent to the opposite side will not cause God to cease to rule. Well, it is not democracy and the election of a new president for the next term. If all people agreed to be on the devil’s side, do you really think God would give up his position? And the question/issue of "love"? It is something that has nothing to do with the "universal issue".

Interesting article - https://biologos.org/articles/the-genre-of-genesis-1-is-cosmogony

On contrary, JW publications claims how all other religious web pages outside of WTJWorg and many other secular pages that not supports WTJWorg teachings are apostates and/or enemies of ..., but in same time producing and multiplying own apostasy on various issues. Example of apostasy is visible in this: In WTJWorg preaching, several Endings of Last Days have been coming during these 140 years. Such teachings are in fact apostasy for several reasons. One of striking piece of evidence is that their announcements were never fulfilled.

This verse is also useful to show how funny, how ridiculous it sounds when JW literature talks about “cleansing within an organization” in some specific time periods that were a turning point for the WTJWorg Administration.

Who can bring out clean from unclean? No one! Job 14:4 What experience does God have with an organized form of religion? For centuries, the Israeli congregation struggled in conditions that eventually ended with two destructions of the Temple, prophesied by God, and perhaps, to put it this way, caused by God. Further, The First Christian Assembly was diluted into various denominations of Christianity. Also, the current WTJWorg organization, which is claimed to be the only true successor to the First Christian Assembly, is grappling with doctrinal and instructional-organizational lies and errors. I would say this way: God does not fix what is wrong, but always seeks a new solution to every new problem.

Another prophecy/chronology/dateology from JW members? I guess you have some date in mind when that "final" message will be delivered to people.

Wine and spirits can be a cure for tired hearts and life worries. Contributes to a cheerful mood. But it also has side effects.

I am asking for arguments for the claim and statistics that support your claim. Article as this one on JWorg librray https://www.jw.org/hr/biblioteka/casopisi/g201412/psihicki-poremecaji/ not supporting any of your ideas presented in statement you offer. Your flat statement is an expression of the impotence of argumentation against ex JW. It is also evidence of an attack on the personality of forum participants. TTH has the same habits. "Hundreds of millions of people around the world suffer from mental disorders, and this significantly affects the lives of their loved ones. Every fourth person at some point in their life has a mental disorder or a mental illness. Globally, depression is one of the leading causes of work disability. Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are among the most serious mental illnesses that greatly impair a person’s quality of life. (...) Despite the huge number of patients, mental disorders are still hidden and neglected, and society looks down on discriminated persons and discriminates against them ”(World Health Organization). Mental illness can affect anyone, regardless of gender, age, nationality, race, culture, religion, level of education or financial status. Mental disorders are not the result of any human weakness or character defect. Mental health professionals today successfully treat many mental disorders. Therefore, it is important that the sick person first goes for a psychiatric examination to a top doctor who has experience in treating mental illness. (not to JW elders and person who making conclusions like Arauna) Although the Bible is not a medical manual, it contains wise counsel that can help us cope with painful emotions and unpleasant life situations. (Bible not support idea how God will punish you with or allow that person be affected by mental illness if decide to stop be a member of WTJWorg) Defending your religious beliefs that are based on the Organization is one thing. And to declare "insane " those who have abandoned the religious beliefs of WTJWorg is proof of a lack of arguments and a lack of skill in dealing with the opposite.

I am asking for arguments for the claim and statistics that support your claim.

AFTERNOON 1:35 Music-Video Presentation 1:45 Song No. 2 1:50 SYMPOSIUM: Use Creation to Build Your Faith • Stars (Isaiah 40:26) “Lift up your eyes to heaven and see.Who has created these things?aIt is the One who brings out their army by number;He calls them all by name.bBecause of his vast dynamic energy and his awe-inspiring power,cNot one of them is missing. Kenneth Flodin gave new approach to understanding about stars. So, from the aspect of scientific knowledge, stars have their own lifespan, they are not eternal. The stars “explode” at some point. This is also assumed for our Sun, which will cease to exist in a few billion years. Now, if God created the stars and gave them names, and none of them ever ceased to exist according to the words of the Bible, then today’s scientific knowledge is incorrect. But now Kenneth Flodin appears on the scene, who does not oppose today's science knowledge about/of the stars, already gives a new interpretation of a biblical passage that reconciles it with science. KF does not deny that stars “die”. He does not deny that the stars are “missing”. He comes to a compromise solution between the religious and the scientific. It provides believers with a satisfactory explanation in which two different and opposing settings can coexist. But he goes further than that. He begins to use this "new explanation of truth" or so called "beliefs clarified", to strengthen the believers' hope in the resurrection of the dead. So, KF summarizes that the star is “dead and missing,” but only in a literal sense. Actually that is an insignificant fact. What is more important is the claim that this star is still alive. And imagine where and how. In God's memory. So, all dead sparrows also live in God's memory. And all the lizards and all the worms, and so on. But to all the happiness and joy of Kenneth and most JWs, God will not deal with the resurrection of stars, sparrows, lizards and worms or our pets, but only with the resurrection of dead people. We should not enter into God's choice of who will be resurrected and when, but we should certainly be careful when GB introduces a new interpretation of a biblical text/verse that either insufficiently or incorrectly showed "the truth" about the stars in time of Isaiah, or was poorly translated, or misrepresented God's relationship to the stars. Or Isaiah may not have been very inspired as he wrote this line. Or was it just a poetic expression that speaks of the sublimity of God, not that the stars will never disappear (literally or in memory). This example of the one biblical verse, WTJWorg and our religious or other beliefs that stem from this kind of perception and understanding of the words in the Bible, should be a reason for us to be more careful about what we actually want to believe.

What WTJWorg calls “extraterrestrial” goes in two directions of interpretation. One is that they are spiritual creatures, actually angels, because they live outside the realm of the Earth. The second assumption is that it could be the same as on Earth, only so - people like Adam and Eve but on some other planet. But in the continuation of the article, they directly deny the possibility that God created another Adam and Eve on another planet. And they confirm this with the words: The Bible indicates that it is very unlikely that God at this point has created intelligent physical creatures on any planets other than our own. Please nicely, what kind of proof and fact is that in fact. Nowhere in the Bible is there a claim or indication that refutes or proves "extraterrestrial life" in any elementary/ material /physical form. The explanations they offers are based solely on the word IF. And then they continue with the imagination, but they also do it with a limited imagination. Because they and their explanations are limited to some earthly events and circumstances. Again, a linear thinking comes to the fore that, due to a theological limitation, does not allow them the idea that their God is outside their human framework. When they use Isaiah 43:10, they do so in an unimaginably wrong way. These words are more an expression of poetry and the establishment of some special relationship between the two sides. Come on, please nicely read it over and over again. So, how could the Israelites be witnesses that God has always been and will always be. They have lived several decades of their lives so they cannot witness any events before their birth or after their death. They can bear no witness to the eternity and uniqueness of one God. They can only be witnesses to the covenant relationship that was established through their patriarchs and representatives. The same passage from Isaiah 43:10 is used for "extraterrestrial people". What madness. How could some, supposedly obedient people on another planet who knows where in the space, they could have witnessed for people on this planet? Quote: would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify. This would mean that God would bring and present these witnesses from that other planet here on Earth. Otherwise, maybe when the space technology of both planets evolves so much that people on them will be able to communicate and share experiences. But other than that, what would Adam and Eve on a planet tens of light-years away from Adam and Eve on this Earth have in common? Except for the same Creator? Why do JW think that the sin of Adam and Eve on this planet should have any consequences for these other people elsewhere? These Adam and Eve of ours did not raise the universal question of who has the right to rule the world and who should be obeyed in the whole universe. They used the gift that the same God gave them - free will. They violated the direct order and endured the consequences. Someone else came up with the idea that this raised an issue that has fatal consequences for the entire universe about which (the universe) WTJWorg knows nothing. Nor will they learn about the universe from the Bible, because as they themselves say the Bible is not a “scientific manual”. If we want to address devil for "universal issue" that will be more appropriate. Not Adam And Eve. They and people on Earth are so limited with Earth's gravitation for raising this "issue" in Universe. Just recently they developed space program and try to explore out of Earth. But that is not important because "universal issue" as was explained in WTJWorg took place with Serpent, Adam, Eve and Tree before cca 6000 years. The Bible Answers According to the Bible, extraterrestrial life not only exists but exists in abundance. It is more complex, more interesting, and more believable than anything that evolutionists, science-fiction writers, and moviemakers have dreamed up. After all, an extraterrestrial is simply a being who originates outside this earth and its atmosphere.......... Some influential religious figures have insisted that God would not create any world without purpose and that all habitable worlds must therefore be inhabited. Is that what the Bible says? No. The Bible indicates that it is very unlikely that God at this point has created intelligent physical creatures on any planets other than our own. How so? If God did create such beings, he did so before he created Adam and Eve. Such beings either remained faithful to their Creator, or like Adam and Eve, they sinned and fell into imperfection. But if they became imperfect, they needed a redeemer. As one essayist put it: “One has this dreadful thought that on Friday [the day Jesus Christ was executed], every Friday, somewhere in the universe Jesus is being hanged high for someone’s sins.” But that is not Scriptural. The Bible tells us that Jesus “died with reference to sin once for all time.”—Romans 6:10. What if these beings had remained perfect? Well, when Adam and Eve sinned, they were, in effect, questioning God’s right to rule over a world of intelligent physical beings. If another planet existed at that time, a world full of intelligent physical beings who were living harmoniously and loyally under God’s rule, would they not have been called in as witnesses to testify that God’s rule does indeed work? This conclusion seems inescapable, since he has already used even imperfect humans as witnesses in his behalf on that very issue.—Isaiah 43:10. -https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101990244

Once again you find the need to misquote me or to twist what I write. Tom you seem unwell spiritually. So explain this implication quoted above if you can ? Ok, TTH said how their "core doctrines" are 100% accurate, and that gave them guarantee how Jesus will put them on His "right side". Well, that would/could mean also, how Jesus will not look with disapproval on all other false teachings that GB producing and put as "must" on JW members. According to such premise and logic, I don't see why would Jesus reject other religious movements that also have a partly correct and partly wrong interpretation of the Bible, such as WTJWorg too!? Obviously, according to TTH, the ratio and selection between “true and false teachings” becomes a crucial factor for Jesus’ judgment.

No - you need the spirit of Jehovah to understand and obey. We must pray often to understand scripture better and to obey - do you? Do you also ... obey? Do you gather together with people who worship Jehovah and understand the position of jesus and what his kingdom wll do for us. Do you regularly preach as we are instructed in scripture to do. Criticizing Gb on this forum is not preaching.... I mean talking daily to people about your faith..... Well, sounds confusing. You feel and claim how spirit of JHVH is requirement for understanding, but in the same time concept of been "inspired" by this same JHVH is something you and other JW members consider as "inappropriate" way and "not possible" way, .... because even FDS is not inspired ... so how would/how could any rank and file member be in this privileged position at all. WTJWorg really need to think more about terminology and meaning of specific words that they use and put on opposite sides ... "inspired by spirit and/vs guided by spirit". This two sort of words, that GB put in two sort of concepts that are not same, as they say, speaking about same think in fact. Influence of HS is needed for both models. Or, influence of different sort of spirit. When JW's go on to preach uncertain and inaccurate doctrines, by what spirit are they "guided" or !inspired"?

What WTJWorg and JW members think of C.T. Russell? Maybe they think like this: Some things he understood and interpreted well, and in some he made mistakes. To which category of people does CTR belong according to WTJWorg? Inspired? Guided? Analytical? A seeker of truth? Altruistic? Businessman? Or a little of everything? It is claimed; The Bible was inspired by God because Bible writers were inspired by God as they wrote. Does a Bible reader need to be “inspired” to understand the Bible? What kind of biblical text can a Bible reader understand without being “inspired” or even “guided” by God or by the spirit? Why did Russell come to the conclusion that he understood his position as God’s “FDS”? Because the Holy Spirit told him he was? Why did Rutherford come to the same conclusion for himself? Why did the members of the group of Directors, and later GB, start claiming that God chose them to be "FDS"? Because they were; Inspired? Guided? Analytical? Truth seekers? Altruistic? Businessmen? Or a little of everything? Question number one is: Do you have to be “inspired” to understand when God says, “Do good, do not kill, help another, go build an ark, flee the city, preach about Jesus, etc.? Question number two is: Do you have to be “inspired” to interpret events as the fulfillment of biblical prophecy? Do you have to be “inspired” to explain the prophecy and say it will be fulfilled one way or another at specific time period? To the first question, it would be logical for me if the answer is, "no". You don’t need to be inspired to understand inspired tips/counsels/advises, commandments, prohibitions, and the like. The answer to the second question is no longer so simple. If you are not “inspired” then you will be mistaken in your interpretations. And, since so many mistakes have been made, it is less worrying to know that those people who run WTJWorg are not "inspired", but it is worrying why so many people allow themselves to be "led" by those people who are not able to understand the Bible well, those people who studies and prayers addressed to God that He “leads” them without “inspiration”.

Does this exposition on the definitions of some words, mean that it is (not) quite normal for JW members to so readily accept the changed definitions in so many GB teachings, which have taken on new meanings in relation to the original ones? Because you say yourself: One way is simply refuse to accept it.

WTJWorg’s explanation is that people need to achieve "perfection" in NW, so that they are then overtaken by the “last test” that will finally prove their faith, devotion to God and give the final answer to the “universal issue”. Thanks for the comment Witness. Namely, you set a good example with the old patriarchs. But I would add more, if I may. Regardless of past or present faithful people, they prove their faithfulness to God as “imperfect” people. Why then should we prove the same as "perfect"? Well, isn't victory over evil greater and more glorious when you are imperfect than when you are perfect? On second, about GB member Splane. What special "spiritual truths" would GB members told David or other people from past. Perhaps about "overlapping generation" or "monthly report", "clergy-laity distinction", how to use "lawyers" in Court cases about CSA, "blue envelops", "shunning policy" ...,??

By using this scriptures i see few things. 1) After Adam made wrong decisions, sin entered into the world in same second. 2) When Jesus made his decisions and sacrifice nothing changed for human daily life until today. All was stayed the same and his act not brought immediate blessings. From the visible consequences (physical and spiritual), we could superficially conclude that Adam’s act caused more far-reaching and immediate consequences if we compare them to what happened after Jesus ’death. The consequence that came from Adam continues. The consequence that came from Jesus has only spiritual aspects and diminishes in the faith and hope of the believers ...... and that is where it ends, for now. In such way looking on this two things made as to think more. Comparison of this two man is not so in issue of equality of them, as seems in first moment. Next. Adam "became a living person". Jesus became "life-giving spirit". Nothing looks similar or same. Two opposite and different outcome in their case. Basics for faith is not in linear interpretations of these events. Yes, people will not be saved by doctrines and interpretations, but by faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. And deeds are related to faith. If you believe that GB is more important than your faith in Jesus, as they provides guidance as “guardians of doctrine” and as they give their instructions on what deeds you should do to affirm your faith, then it is probably about some “degree of faith” that is marked mostly by literal, physical manifestations. Because of that faith, people go to preach, go to jail, don’t swear, don’t lie, etc. But that doesn’t save them from the “evil one” and doesn’t give them any guarantee for the future. After "Last Adam" the effect is not seen. Or we took the biblical text too literally. The interpretation that it takes more time to prove a "universal issue" is not very convincing, because it is the life and death of Jesus that should conclude this dispute forever. He is "Last Adam", he is not the penultimate or just one in a series of "faithful people of old". He is milestone, turning point.

I'm sorry, but I don't think it can be looked at and compared so literally. The foreknowledge and knowledge and wisdom and experience of Jesus, who came to Earth from the position of a person in the Universe with the title of - the Word, the Firstborn and the Only Begotten, is incomparable to Adam and Eve, even as "perfect" humans. This is another type of equality that was needed to equalize the values of life and death, and thus redemption.

lol.... so, other faiths have also God's guidance and blessings to find "the truth", not just GB !? In my case, it happened that my mother and then immediately my father accepted the JW religion when I was 7 years old. Let’s say I was raised from a young age “in faith”. So it’s just such circumstances that I’ve been the most, and the longest considering my age, in the JW religion. So, what to expect from me? :)))

Thanks for both of your comments Thinking. In those days, as i can recall, before new system of kings was established, there was important people like Judges, Priests, Levites, Tribe Elders, ..., and Law of Moses. From this I would conclude that this is not about a lack of administration or persons in positions of power to lead the people. Ever since the creation of Adam and Eve, God has established the principle of "free will" and independent decision-making, and the ability to learn to recognize "what is good and what is bad." No matter how you try to set things up there is no real solution. If the people are without "leadership", anarchy occurs. If a nation has “leadership” then there is an abuse of power and position that is often times legalized to the point that little can be change. The old nation of Israel during the Judges was not a disorganized group that came from the “jungle”. There were laws and people in power, and the Israelites were a “literate” people who knew how to read the Law of Moses. Something else went wrong. There is insufficient information on how God envisioned Adam and Eve to gain “knowledge of what is good and what is evil,” and insufficient we can know how God intended the principle of “free will” and independent decision-making to be implemented globally. According to the Bible report, His idea failed very quickly as far as the First People were concerned. We don’t know enough about what happened to the “rebellious angel or angels” before Eden Tree. So we have a question; did the "devil" have a rebellious activity long before the appearance of Adam and Eve, based on the same principle of "free will"? If so, the Bible says nothing that God sanctioned him. Which would be strange if God had done nothing against rebellion “in heaven”. It is hard for me to imagine that the "devil" could have hidden his rebellious spirit so well, and that it was only with the appearance of Adam and Eve that it first came to the fore in such a public way. Unfortunately, I come to the realization that, all types of systems are flawed. In Eden, in the ancient Nation of Israel, and in the WTJWorg, the so-called "theocratic system of government" has the same effects and shortcomings as the best system man has found and called the "democratic system of government."

Would you be so kind to remind me?

Appendix In the Scriptures a Levite alone, not sinners, carved up the body of his concubine into twelve pieces which he sent to all the Israelite tribes, demanding revenge.

Under what circumstances they curse own day of birth? .... says a lot about this issue. I hope, You don't think how individual have to curse his birth day every time he/she have problems in life? Now I get it. "Sinners alone, not saints" going to take higher education and became Lawyers who defending WTJWorg in Court cases. Please, what sort of logic is given in conclusion made by Origen? Who is Origen, that we should listen and accept his explanations?

Please, who were people who were "guardians of doctrines" in period of 2000 years before WTJWorg? ... and where that place was located you speaking about? In Bible? Then God do not need GB to be "guardians" today! Perhaps it is funny in your community, ...... but shameful and not expected that you would use such shallow way of communication. ..... and I did not come to this forum to teach someone how to behave. Good luck with that.