Srecko Sostar

quote: That defamatory statements about the Jehovah’s Witnesses come from Russian official documents does not mean that organizations in democratic countries are free to reprint them. - https://bitterwinter.org/fecris-sentenced-in-germany-for-defaming-jehovahs-witnesses/ Is this, above, German Court ruling, opinion or something else? Or is this M.I interpretation? According to JW interpretations about Bible and Romans 13 in particular, every secular government are equal before God. No matter is it about more or less "democratic countries" or or about other political ideology. In such point of view, all good and bad decisions aka "official documents" made by "democratic" or by "not-democratic" countries have same value. And people are free to choose to obey or not to obey, to trust or not to trust in such "official documents". With various outcome made by individual or group decision. In case of Russian JW they made their choice with knowing in advance what could and would look like going against "official documents". We can "reprint" (copy/paste) WTJWorg official site articles or videos and say what we think about it. Or do M.I thinks we have to be silent about it/them? WTJWorg publications (especially in the past) were full of freedom of (hate) speech against other religions, especially the Catholic Church. So, what's the problem now? Maybe the difference is that JW’s attacks on other religions are justified in JW’s eyes? Because other religions are false and their doctrines are false? And their traditions are wrong? So it's free to attack them? Catholic priests told their members not to read literature from JW. What do JW elders and GB tell their members? The same thing, not to read anything that comes from other religions. Today, “hate speech” in WTJWorg concentrates on former members. Who wants to deal with such things as listening to arguments from both sides and giving opinions? Maybe the German Court? It seems to be interesting to them, so maybe they will deal with it in the future as well. :))

Unfortunately, I can only comment on an article by M. Introvign, and M.I. it is known to us from a particular and specific context from before. It would be good to have court documentation, so that I would be able to give a clearer "opinion". The article shows a detail that includes Russia and its judiciary with the JW and with "Western democracy." In this case, German democracy gives an opinion on Russia and its domestic policy towards the JW. This creates a problem and doubts the objectivity of the German court. On the other hand, we have the example of American courts that do not want to enter into theological debates and evaluate what and how which religion teaches and how it disciplines and guide its members. It does not discuss the internal rules and methods of church bodies. According to the article, this is also about such things. quote: The court also found that FECRIS distorts the theology and practices of the Jehovah’s Witnesses with the intention of defaming them WTJWorg in Germany seeks the opinion and approval of the court that certain JW theology and practices are correct. From whose point of view should it be correct? Court view? They also ask the court to declare certain observations of external observers to be false. It is possible that someone at FECRIS did not do a good research so he said the inaccuracy. ... quote: (Sometimes, it is unclear whether FECRIS activists, who claim to be experts on “cults,” are in bad faith or simply incompetent. They published the case of a 17-year-old Dutch girl who died during a measles epidemic in 2013 after her parents had refused vaccination for religious reasons and implied she was a Jehovah’s Witnesses. In fact, she was a member of a Calvinist Christian Reformed congregation, i.e., belonged to a church known for being a staunch opponent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses.) How the elders (and JW lawyers) in the Judicial Communities working, is evident from some other court documents and videos. If the elders were to make their notes available, (if they were written) rather than destroyed them as instructed by the GB Legal Department and representatives, then perhaps this “story” should be different. quote: The German Jehovah’s Witnesses asked the District Court of Hamburg to examine 32 statements. The court found 17 of them defamatory, one partially defamatory, and 14 non-defamatory. What is the content of these 14 and 1/2 ? They are true, right? Can you find out what this is about?

"the marketplace of ideas" :))) This forum with JW Open Club is marketplace of ideas, too. How would you describe the participants confronting their ideas? Who are the buyers and who are the sellers? What is their business ethics? Are there any restrictions on what ideas are allowed? ... etc.

GB Interpretation: With a little help by/with from WTJWorg GB Lawyers/Legal Department?

In all four cases, either YouTube or Facebook are asked to hand over “all identifying information, including subscriber registration information” including their “name(s), address(es), telephone number(s), [and] any electronic mail addresses” associated with the allegedly infringing accounts. You Tube and Facebook could easily avoid this. They only need to declare themselves a kind of religion and appoint their employees or volunteers as clergy. They could then invoke the priestly privilege of not disclosing privileged information about their members. Because WTJWorg and JW are actually legal entities, they are a firm / business. In this context, everything they "intellectually" produce is their "property". BUT, there is a problem of another kind. WTJWorg claims that all of this/that is “spiritual food” that comes from God and Christ, because they are, reportedly, led by HS to write magazines and books, to make songs and movies. If it is truly “spiritual food from God,” then it is not the property of WTJWorg and JW nor in any way. Neither in a legal sense, nor in an intellectual sense. Nor is it for moral and ethical reasons. For they cannot prove before any Court, or Judicial Committee, that it was God who chose exactly them to defend the intellectual-doctrinal property of God or Christ. If WTJWorg and JW have a problem because of the content or the way other people comment, criticize, or reveal the religious teaching of the JW Church, then that is another topic. Well, doesn't it say in the Bible: For free you have received, for free you have given. If WTJWorg and JW truly believe this, then WTJWorg's lawsuits are completely outside the teachings of the Bible. By this it would be that the requirement/lawsuits sought by WTJWorg and JW is contrary to Biblical principles. Any and each JW who acts contrary to Biblical Principles is not a Witness for either YHVH or Christ. The irony and hypocrisy is that WTJWorg teaches how members have to suffer evil and not retaliate against “enemy attacks”, but wait for JHVH to give comfort and strength to endure. Strength To Endure, not Strength to Fight Back. :))

I just noticed some newbie NoisySrecko created new account and, imagine, down-voted your comment. Must be some troll and clone who want to create chaos. :)) Name Srecko is specific and rare even in Croatia. To use it here in a small community / forum (JW Open Club) in English language, it must be some attempt to divert attention, intent to undermine, manipulate, cast doubt, etc. Similar to when Real- JWInsider appeared. It must be how we really "living in The Last Days" :)) hehe

Sorry to hear that. My condolences.

Please accept my deepest condolences for your loss.

From my point of view, and the short life we all have, the idea, purpose, and meaning is a general transience and misery with few moments of self-deception about pleasure and joy.

My comment have nothing with "enthusiasm" of any sort. I conveyed information regarding the creation and storage of documentation within an institution. And if that organization, like WTJWorg, is engaged in publishing, among other activities, then there are some technical and legal norms. Private congregation data? ....and clergy/laity privileged relationship, too ? What is your definition of "Private Congregational Data"? WTJWorg IS Private Company. Well, (does) that would mean how all documents inside WTJWorg organization are private? JW Congregations are "private companies" inside WTJWorg Private Company. Elders are "appointed" or installed by GB (top managers or ecclesiastic-hierarchical board of directors) to collect various information about members and their activity (rank and file primarily). Members agree, more or less, about that. Who can and would have interest to see information/data about other members, about congregational activity, money, elder's decisions etc? Only few inside, i guess. Elders was instructed how to collect and how and when to destroy private and official notice, data, documents, memos and similar. Magazines and books are another part of same issue. You speaking about "redundancy, digitization, typing errors, and technical errors in understanding (wrong) interpretations". Poor explanations and excuses you offer with this.

Mr @Ray Devereaux what, for God's sake, is problematic or scandalous or blasphemous, in this comment above, for you ??

P.S. There is a legal obligation, I do not know if it is an obligation for both WTJWorg in the USA and for WTJWorg printers around the world, that several copies, mandatory copies, of each edition that goes to print should be handed over to the state public library. Here in Croatia, 9 copies have to be handed to National University Library.

Each legal entity creates a different, various type of documentation during the business. Often times a legal body needs to adopt its own Regulations that regulate certain activities within the institution. Regulations must be harmonized with the laws on Archives. Such laws on archives are enacted by the state and its public bodies. So, the people who run WTJWorg should know how to destroy the documentation that is scheduled for destruction after certain retention periods have passed. But there is documentation that must not be destroyed, but must exist permanently, as long as there is a legal entity. After the legal entity ceases to exist, there are rules that say that certain documentation must be submitted to a state archive for storage and safekeeping. Or the documentation is handed over to a new legal successor. The doctrines and teachings and traditions that are part of WTJWorg publications are likely to be among the documents that have no lasting value before legislation. Therefore, the publisher can independently decide to destroy everything that should no longer have any (spiritual, theological, moral, religious, doctrinal ... etc) significance for the average (or all) members of the organization. Certainly, that such kind of decision by WTJWorg, to destroy “spiritual food” that has “ceased to be true,” is dubious for a simple reason. For, then, every JW can rightly ask Pilate's question, "What is The Truth?" .."Why should I believe in a New Truth?" .... etc. Also, should any JW be required to separate (for destruction) from its private library any such publication, which no longer meets the WTJWorg criteria on the reliability of what is written and proclaimed to be “True”?

When there is a good interlocutor, like you, it is so simple and easy to go from the topic of artificial satellites and torn parts flying in Earth orbit to the topic of the persecution of Christians. :))

Does your church have an official position on cats and debris, so you have to defend it in front of "stupid people"? :))

I recently watched a documentary about it. It’s actually scary how much garbage/junk (debris) is circulating around the Earth. http://www.esa.int/ESA_Multimedia/Videos/2019/02/Distribution_of_space_debris_in_orbit_around_Earth 1902_006_AR_EN.mp4 1902_006_AR_EN.mp4

Debris history in particular years[edit] As of 2009, 19,000 debris over 5 cm (2 in) were tracked.[by whom?][11] As of July 2013, estimates of more than 170 million debris smaller than 1 cm (0.4 in), about 670,000 debris 1–10 cm, and approximately 29,000 larger pieces of debris are in orbit.[30] As of July 2016, nearly 18,000 artificial objects are orbiting above Earth,[31] including 1,419 operational satellites.[32] As of October 2019, nearly 20,000 artificial objects in orbit above the Earth,[8] including 2,218 operational satellites.[9] Lost equipment[edit] A drifting thermal blanket photographed in 1998 during STS-88. Space debris includes a glove lost by astronaut Ed White on the first American space-walk (EVA), a camera lost by Michael Collins near Gemini 10, a thermal blanket lost during STS-88, garbage bags jettisoned by Soviet cosmonauts during Mir's 15-year life,[56] a wrench, and a toothbrush.[62] Sunita Williams of STS-116 lost a camera during an EVA. During an STS-120 EVA to reinforce a torn solar panel, a pair of pliers was lost, and in an STS-126 EVA, Heidemarie Stefanyshyn-Piper lost a briefcase-sized tool bag.[63] On Earth[edit] Saudi officials inspect a crashed PAM-D module in January 2001. Although most debris burns up in the atmosphere, larger debris objects can reach the ground intact. According to NASA, an average of one cataloged piece of debris has fallen back to Earth each day for the past 50 years. Despite their size, there has been no significant property damage from the debris.[124] Notable examples of space junk falling to Earth and impacting human life include: 1969: five sailors on a Japanese ship were injured when space debris from what was believed to be a Soviet spacecraft struck the deck of their boat.[125] 1978 The Soviet reconnaissance satellite Kosmos 954 reentered the atmosphere over northwest Canada and scattered radioactive debris over northern Canada, some of the debris landing in the Great Slave Lake.[125] 1979 portions of Skylab came down over Australia, and several pieces landed in the area around the Shire of Esperance, which fined NASA $400 for littering.[125] 1987 a 7-foot strip of metal from the Soviet Kosmos 1890 rocket landed between two homes in Lakeport, California, causing no damage; 1997: an Oklahoma woman, Lottie Williams, was hit, without injury in the shoulder by a 10 cm × 13 cm (3.9 in × 5.1 in) piece of blackened, woven metallic material confirmed as part of the propellant tank of a Delta II rocket which launched a U.S. Air Force satellite the year before.[126][127] 2001: a Star 48 Payload Assist Module (PAM-D) rocket upper stage re-entered the atmosphere after a "catastrophic orbital decay",[128] crashing in the Saudi Arabian desert. It was identified as the upper-stage rocket for NAVSTAR 32, a GPS satellite launched in 1993.[citation needed] 2002: 6 year old boy Wu Jie became the first person to be injured by direct impact from space debris. He suffered a fractured toe and a swelling on his forehead after a block of aluminum, 80 centimeters by 50 centimeters and weighing 10 kilograms from the outermost shell of the Resource Second Satellite struck him as he sat beneath a persimmon tree in the Shaanxi Province of China.[129] 2003: Columbia disaster, large parts of the spacecraft reached the ground and entire equipment systems remained intact.[130] More than 83,000 pieces, along with the remains of the six astronauts, were recovered in an area from three to 10 miles around Hemphill in Sabine County, Texas.[131] More pieces were found in a line from west Texas to east Louisiana, with the westernmost piece found in Littlefield, TX and the easternmost found southwest of Mora, Louisiana.[132] Debris was found in Texas, Arkansas and Louisiana. In a rare case of property damage, a foot-long metal bracket smashed through the roof of a dentist office.[133] NASA warned the public to avoid contact with the debris because of the possible presence of hazardous chemicals.[134] 15 years after the failure, people were still sending in pieces with the most recent, as of February 2018, found in the spring of 2017.[135] 2007: airborne debris from a Russian spy satellite was seen by the pilot of a LAN Airlines Airbus A340 carrying 270 passengers whilst flying over the Pacific Ocean between Santiago and Auckland. The debris was reported within 9.3 kilometres (5 nmi) of the aircraft.[136] 2020: The empty core stage of a Long March-5B rocket made an uncontrolled re-entry - the largest object to do so since the Soviet Union’s 39 ton Salyut-7 space station in 1991 - over Africa and the Atlantic ocean and a 12-meter-long pipe originating from the rocket crashed into the village of Mahounou in Cote d'Ivoire.[137] 2021: a Falcon 9 second stage made an uncontrolled re-entry over Washington state on March 25, producing a widely seen "light show".[138] A composite-overwrapped pressure vessel survived the re-entry and landed on a farm field.[139]

Should the JW member submit to GB at All Cost? If you advocate the autonomy and independence of an individual or group or WTJWorg Corporation to resist the bad laws of “secular authorities,” then you should allow the same for JW members who need to be able to discern what is wrong with GB leadership and their doctrines and instructions. Perhaps because Vatican is "all authority". The Vatican City State, also known as The Vatican, became independent from Italy with the Lateran Treaty (1929), and it is a distinct territory under "full ownership, exclusive dominion, and sovereign authority and jurisdiction" of the Holy See, itself a sovereign entity of international law, which maintains the city state's temporal, diplomatic, and spiritual independence. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City Hmm! GB with their lawyers have deceptive words in their mouth as they presents themselves on JW TV and in Courts... ...and they do threat their "accusers" with; human rights, OSCE, UN, and "worldly" Courts, asking for "justice" from "secular judges", and not from - "him who judges justly". If GB is called to suffer in the same manner as Jesus, then why GB fight for their "property"* (in Russia or anywhere else)? Why not to be jailed and patiently wait for JHVH? Why JW fight against "bad governments" and not follow Jesus example who did not seek to be acquitted of unjust charges and released? * according to WT publications, "property" includes all material and spiritual assets and resources, including people, JW members

A)... perhaps because they are the only ones this world has at its disposal? B)....the issue of environmental pollution is not so important, because it is God's job to clean up our mess ... one day ..... isn't it?

https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/e/b/83530.pdf Statement of Dr Massimo Introvigne, Personal Representative of the OSCE Chairperson-in-Office on Combating Racism, Xenophobia and Discrimination, also Focusing on Intolerance and Discrimination against Christians and Members of Other Religions HDIM, Warsaw, October 4, 2011 I came to this mandate with a background not as a politician or a diplomat, but with some thirty years of experience as a sociologist of religion and religious liberty activist. Those who came in touch with me this year would probably agree that this background may involve both advantages and disadvantages. The mandate is broad, and the time is short. I will limit myself to four remarks about four main areas of the mandate. 1. Racism. Social theory teaches us that economic crises generate stereotyping and scapegoating of minorities, easily degenerating into racism. Recent experience shows that this stereotyping is unfortunately not limited to marginal racist organizations, but occasionally contaminates mainline political speech. Intolerance should not be tolerated, be it intolerance against immigrants, refugees, women or any other minority. Working with NGOs and civil society is particularly important in this field, and several NGOs gave us a real treasure of information, particularly during our country visits. 2. Roma and Sinti issues. The growth of intolerance against Roma and Sinti communities is also in part a consequence of the international economic crisis. Two main aims of the mandate have been to involve directly Roma organizations in any international and domestic discussion about their community, and to facilitate conversations between the same Roma organizations, ODIHR specialized personnel, and some participating States. At least with respect to certain States, some real progress has been made, although visits to settlements and communities in several countries confirmed that much remains to be done. 3. Members of other religions. I fully understood my mandate not to be only about Christians, and recently had a significant meeting with leaders of the Sikh community in what is now the largest European Sikh temple, in Northern Italy. They report that problems still exist, but their situation has significantly improved in several participating States. I also interacted with so called traditional or "tribal" religions, particularly - in conversation with the World Intellectual Property Organization and other relevant actors in this field - in connection with one of their concerns, the protection of their "traditional knowledge" through the use, and the prevention of possible misuse, of intellectual property. But I also tried not to forget the non-traditional religions and experiences, by meeting representatives of both new religious movements and of secular humanist organizations, which are struggling for appropriate forms of legal recognitions in some countries. 4. Christians. The September 12, 2011 conference on hate crimes against Christians in Rome, with its quite high attendance, confirmed that these crimes are a matter of great international concern. The spiral of intolerance against Christians can be described through a three-step model. First comes intolerance, a cultural phenomenon. Second, discrimination, a legal process. Third, hate crimes. The social actors involved in the three steps are obviously different. But there is a slippery slope from the first step to the second and from the second to the third. I am very much aware that my role as Representative is not to be a spokesperson for any Christian church or community. But it involves hearing their claims and complaints, checking the facts, and discussing these claims with the relevant participating states. It should be recognized that not all claims should be accepted at face value. Christian churches and communities may have been responsible of hurting local sensitivities in different ways. But it is also a fact that intolerance against Christians is growing in many countries and regions. My mandate is about building bridges. Bridges between countries. Bridges between religions. Bridges between religions and governments. Bridges between believers and unbelievers. Bridges between those who cherish the religious heritages of their countries and those who cherish traditions of separation between church and state. Bridges are also about friendship. Let me conclude by mentioning that in this year I saw professional acquaintances grow into real friendships with personnel of OSCE , ODIHR and the Lithuanian chairmanship, women and men of great professional capabilities and moral integrity. For this, I am particularly grateful. GB and JW representatives refuse any dialogue with representatives of other religions (except perhaps when they communicate through real estate agents while selling KH to another “fake” religion). In this aspect, Massimo argues that he builds bridges between religions. Is “building bridges between religions” something JWs want? From what we know the answer is, No. But WTJWorg GB doesn't mind, for now, that Massimo Introvigne wants to achieve exctly that with his work. WTJWorg complains that others (whole world) are intolerant of them and discriminate and hate them. Well, can’t the same be found in a JW assembly whose members refuse to greet a former member when they meet on the street? Not greeting someone you know is not only rude and unkind, it is intolerant, discriminatory and hateful. It is the demolition, the burning of bridges.

To explain the phenomenon of “persecution,” what is a prerequisite? What do some individuals or groups of people do or do not do, that another group would consider them "enemies" and begin to “persecute” them in some of the many possible forms of persecution? To what extent are JWs willing to accept the desire of others to “live differently” from JWs? At what point will someone’s desire for a “lifestyle difference” that is different from JW’s, upset some JW so that in a spiritual sense he reaches for intellectual and emotional reasons that will trigger “hatred” in him and give him an excuse to “persecute” another individual ? Are JWs capable of “persecuting” those who are different from them?

KH are also sold in Croatia. For one KH in Zagreb, the price is 700,000 Euros (on sale from 2019). If your predictions are correct about money, then the decision to sell KH en masse is not helpful, because the state can “nationalize” buildings, but also money. Where is the money from the sale of KH? In banks or in WTJWorg safes? Or is it investing in other real estate and businesses? Some world events and processes affect all people, sometimes regardless of their ideological, religious or social and economic or any other status. So it seems to me that it may be an exaggeration to talk about JW as the only group of people who will suffer the most from adversity or be the only target by the secular world. People can meet in their apartments, houses or other public places to maintain social contacts in order to develop and maintain the social aspects of direct socializing.

For the benefit of the JW community, a speech like this should be included in the JWTV program as a Special Lecture on Sunday afternoon. .....Of course, to make it more acceptable for the organizer, the lecture should be given by a man, not a woman :)) I believe, that nowadays an increasing proportion of JW members would readily abandon the idea that only men (male) are allowed to “teach”.