Srecko Sostar

The watchtower has again redefined the word trinity to mean Jehovah, Jesus, and the governing body.

The watchtower has again redefined the word trinity to mean Jehovah, Jesus, and the governing body.

IS JESUS ‘MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL’?

Watchtower Teaching WT claims that Daniel 10:13,21; 12:1; and I Thess 4:16 teach that:
1) Jesus existed as Michael the archangel before his birth to Mary; then
2) Jesus gave up his spirit existence as an angel when he entered Mary’s womb to become a
human;
3) At the resurrection he was recreated as Michael the archangel.
They describe Christ’s progressive existence as angel, then human, then angel.
‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13). ‘Michael your prince’ (Daniel 10:21).
‘Michael the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1). JWs think that Jesus must be Michael because of
Michael’s authority over other angels as a chief prince.
The WT teaches that Jesus Christ was Michael the archangel, who was born as a human, died
and was raised up as an archangel again. They refer to Jesus Christ as Michael the archangel.
(Watchtower, 15 Feb, 1979, p.31).
Bible Teaching:
1) Michael is ‘one of the chief princes’ (10:21), but Jesus Christ is the only begotten Son in
John 3:16. ‘Begotten’ in Greek is ‘monogenes’ meaning uniqueone of a kind. Michael
being ‘one of the chief princes’ means that he is just one among a group of chief angels.
Ask: Where is Jesus called a ‘chief Prince’ in the Bible?
Ask: Where is Jesus clearly mentioned in Daniel 10:13?
Ask: Isn’t Jesus as ‘King of kings and Lord of lords’ (Revelation 19:16) much higher in
authority than one of a group of chief princes?
2) Ask: ‘To which of the angels did God ever say ‘thou art my son’?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
3) The Bible mentions Michael the archangel five times as:
1. ‘Michael, one of the chief princes’ (Daniel 10:13)
2, ‘Michael, your prince’ (Daniel 10:21)
3. ‘Michael, the great prince’ (Daniel 12:1)
4. ‘Michael the archangel . . . durst not bring against him (the devil) a railing accusation, but said The Lord rebuke thee’ (Jude 9)
5. ‘Michael and his angels fought against the dragon’ (Revelation 12:7)
Ask: Which of these verses state that Michael is Jesus Christ? None of them.
4) The WT claims support from I Thessalonians 4:16 ‘the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call,with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet’(NWT)
Ask: If using an archangel’s voice makes Jesus an archangel, then having God’s trumpet makes Jesus to be God.
Note: I Thessalonians 4:16 doesn’t explicitly say that Jesus Himself speaks with the voice of the archangel. When Jesus comes from heaven to rapture the church from earth, He will be accompanied by Michael the archangel. It is the archangel’s voice that shouts, not Jesus’ voice. Jesus doesn’t shout, but Michael does shout. This is like what happens at the end of the seven year tribulation, when Jesus returns ‘from heaven with his mighty angels’ (II Thessalonians 1:7).
If angels accompany Christ at the end of the 7 year tribulation, then clearly Michael will accompany Christ at the rapture before the 7 year tribulation, so Michael cannot be Jesus.
5) In Jude 9, Michael did not have the authority to rebuke Satan, but Jesus did have the authority as follows: Jesus said ‘Get thee hence, Satan’ (Matthew 4:10) and ‘Get thee behind me, Satan’ (Mark 8:33)
Michael said to Satan,‘The Lord rebuke thee’, proving that the only one with the authority to rebuke Satan is God. So, Matt. 4:10 proves that Jesus Christ is the Lord God.
Ask: Since Michael could not rebuke Satan in his own authority, but Jesus could and did rebuke Satan, doesn’t that mean that Michael and Jesus are different persons?
6) All the angels (Michael included) are commanded to worship Christ. (Hebrews 1:6)
7) The writer of Hebrews asks several questions about angels and Jesus Christ, which prove them to be different persons:
i) ‘Unto which of the angels said he at any time, thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee?’ (Hebrews 1:5)
ii) ‘To which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?’ (Hebrews 1:13)
iii) ‘Unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come (millennium)’ (Hebrews 1:13).
iv) ‘For verily, he took not on him the nature of angels’ (Hebrews 2:16)
v) Does Michael sustain all things by the word of his power? (See Hebrews 1:3). No!
vi) Is it right to honour Michael the archangel just as you honour the Father? (John 5:23)
😎 Ask: Do good angels refuse worship? (Certainly). When John fell down to worship the angel, the angel rebuked him, saying ‘See thou do it not ....worship God’. (Rev 22:8,9).
The Father commands all the angels (Michael included) to worship Christ. (Heb 1:6).
The ‘proskuneo’ worship that angels refuse to accept but say to give to God, the Father commands thissame ‘proskuneo’ worship to be given to the Son. Hence the Son cannot be an angel, but must be God. True Bible students soon discover that Jesus is no mere angel, but God. This lesson must be learnt so they may ‘honour the Son just as they honour the Father’. (John 5:23 NWT).
9) Jesus Christ is unchangeable: ‘Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever’. (Hebrews 13:8). The WT view of Jesus is that He was Michael who changed to become a man, and who at his resurrection changed back to Michael the archangel.
The Watchtower Jesus is changeable. They have a false and different Jesus.
10) Jesus Christ created all the angels, including the thrones and principalities of which Michael is a chief prince of a principality. ‘For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers’. (Colossians 1:16).

@TrueTomHarley  you lose me half way through your comments. I'm getting old and it's hot here in Devon England 
Quote "I don’t entreat them to come back on the side of the angels." "Essentially, they have tasted and pronounced Jehovah bad."
Once again i don't know exactly who you are talking about, BUT these two quotes above make me think that YOU are ONCE AGAIN mixing up JW Org/GB/Wt, with Almighty God. 
It was YOU that said that a person does not have to be a baptised JW to be able to witness about Jehovah. 
So does a person have to use the name Jehovah to witness about Almighty God ? What if a person uses the name Yahweh ?  
Space Merchant for an example. I'm sure he would say he is a Christian. Does he have to use the name Jehovah to talk about God ?
If perchance you were including me in those above comments, then you judge me badly. But I suppose I put you and the KId in the same pot, so I don't expect anything different. 
Just a tag on : now i know it was Srecko that you were talking about, i can't remember what you said about  him  

...... I just cheeked this thread, all the way back to the beginning, and there are no "Weasel" series cartoons here, so that gives me a good excuse to post some of  them here, on THIS thread, which is already 11 pages.
 

@James Thomas Rook Jr. perhaps Billy is double/triple  agent :)))

@James Thomas Rook Jr. perhaps Billy is double/triple  agent :)))

" To the extent people think he is a Witness, he paints them as the most intolerant, rigid, and anger-prone people on the planet. " - TTH
That is an incredibly IMPORTANT observation, that I also have considered at great length, as I have seen that many times in the secular world, and occasionally in the Truth.
That is why I personally think it is VERY important that BillyTheKid46 come out of the closet, and declare whether or not his opinions are that of a Jehovah's Witness, and even whether or not he is a Watchtower Lawyer  ... specifically, himself. He is trying to sit on the fence, hide behind his fake avatar, and fake persona.
I have often (every time he starts typing ..) thought that he is a bitter enemy of Jehovah's Witnesses, and an excellent psychologist, and deliberately portrays himself as a petulant, angry, demented, slow and  truly nasty person (when he may in actual fact be NONE of those things ...), in order to with reverse psychology make Jehovah's Witnesses look like all those things ... so that others are deliberately CHASED AWAY from any idea that they might want to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses.
That's why I started my series of "Weasel" cartoons, to try and "force the issue", of having Billy declare who he REALLY is, behind his anonymous false front .... that he deliberately keeps as a false front to deceive, and mislead.
I hope Billy clarifies this issue, and I would be heavily inclined to accept his clarification at face value, as stated.
Years ago, I told a Brother who had come to visit me, that he might want to consider not doing so, as I was not a very good example of a Jehovah's Witness, officially, and hanging around me might get him in serious trouble with the Elders.
.. I seem to have lost my train of thought ... but there is a lesson in there somewhere ....
Fortunately, I have a stockpile of cartoons to get refocused on ....
 
 

Dear Queen Esther, he is quoting (not all is verbatim) what the organization has written - its history...and your history, as a JW.
 
They both together, promise eternal life.  
‘Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me."  John 14:1
~~~~~~~
"Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing His work."  John 14:1
~~~~~~
Then they asked him, ‘Where is your father?’ ‘You do not know me or my Father,’ Jesus replied. ‘If you knew me, you would know my Father also.'    John 8:19
~~~~~~~
And yes, he can promise eternal life by our believing in him.
After Jesus said this, he looked towards heaven and prayed:  Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die"  John 11:25
~~~~~~~~
‘Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3 Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."  John 17:1-3
~~~~~~~
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes Him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."  John 5:24
~~~~~~~
He then brought them out and asked, ‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’  31 They replied, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved – you and your household.’  Acts 16:30,31
Jesus is
‘“the stone you builders rejected,
    which has become the cornerstone.”
12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.’  Acts 4:11,12
~~~~~~~~~
"So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.  Heb 9:28
~~~~~~~~
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 1 Cor 15:22
 
 
 
 
 
 

JESUS  CAN'T  PROMISE  YOU  ETERNAL, EVERLASTING  LIFE !
ONLY  HIS  FATHER  JEHOVAH  CAN DO  ❤♥☼♥❤
 

Are you ashamed of what the watchtower has said?

Which quote or reference is WRONG?
 
I know you guys are NOT allowed to think for yourselves. ie:
 
1983 "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)
1983 "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )
 
 
But, i quote YOUR sources.

What grudge? I am just sharing the truth from the watchtower!

BTK:  "As far as the anointed, it’s true, it’s nobody’s business who is anointed or not. God will make his final decision when the time comes. On earth, there is only hope."
"Now one thing you can signal out, is the behavior and action of someone calling themselves anointed. For those obvious reasons, those people are only fooling themselves."
 
He just couldn't help making it his business.   Very God-like.  Isa 40:25
 
 
 

Rank and file, ordinary people, Am Haarets reading Bible and Clergy say: We shall explain you what you reading and how you should to understand.
I am reading WT article and you say: Let GB and me explain how you should to understand. :))))
Ohhhh man! :)))

Rank and file, ordinary people, Am Haarets reading Bible and Clergy say: We shall explain you what you reading and how you should to understand.
I am reading WT article and you say: Let GB and me explain how you should to understand. :))))
Ohhhh man! :)))

That is EXACTLY what I think of when I hear the cringeworthy label "overlapping generations"..

Each to their own thinking Tom. I'll be happy that the specialist I've got to see at hospital has had some higher education. To know that those guys have some idea about cancer etc, well it gives one a bit of hope. And those guys that design and build the big scanners that can examine the whole body without actually tearing it apart, well you know I think higher education helped them a bit. There is still a lot of good that comes from higher education Tom. Even bloodless surgery must have involved higher education. The 'cell salvage' machines. 
 
 

That you are not Muslim.

No problem. Your secret is safe with me.

This is a good set of points. (I changed the bullets to numbers for discussion.)
Do you think that all of them have to be true at once? Or can 5 of the 7 bullets be true? Or only 2 of the 7?
Actually it appears that #1 through #6 are characteristic "ingredients" or features that will ultimately lead to #7 which is the actual cult product. That product becomes a support structure that can continue to support and enhance and defend the features of #1 through #6.
But there is also the question of a spectrum rather than black and white labeling. Within that spectrum there are variables for intention, motivation, flexibility, freedom, independent thinking, perceived spiritual value, etc.
I've kept an interest in this topic for years.
In fact, at Bethel I tried to study with some Moonies, who seemed receptive (they weren't). I did it mostly to get into their "community" warehouse, where they offered me crackers, milk, and fruit nectar (and more publications). Since then I've had a couple of LDS elders come by the house and make 4 return visits to try to study with me (I would point out things I found on anti-LDS sites, but woudn't study with them of course). And, working right near the NYC Scientology center in midtown I also took their little Bethel-like presentation tour a couple of times, and even met David Miscavige (from a short distance away) and heard him talk about how they helped 9/11 responders. On May 20, 2011, I spoke at length with a Harold Camping follower who gave me an entire CD/DVD full of proof that the rapture would be on May 21, 2011. I have a cousin who is a staunch Seventh Day Adventist, so I also studied as much of the early historical information about them as I could to try to convince her that the Witnesses had the more correct Adventist path. After trying to study them closely, I decided there was a little bit of "cult" in all of them. Of course, I mean in the pejorative sense that people use the term cult --based mostly on those bullet points you offered.
It's a stretch, but one could even defend or explain why one might call the Catholic Church a cult, because there are several of your bullet point features that are often seen in the lives and activities of some Catholics. The same might go for various political ideologies, even so broad as the United States Republican or Democrat parties, or various others  -- all in the pejorative sense.
But there are also nearly neutral or even nearly positive senses in which scholars use the term cult. Scholars can also look at the history of various religious groups and can speak of the cult of Yahweh in Israel, or the cult of John the Baptist, or the cult of primitive Christianity. This is not intended pejoratively. It's mostly used to help one realize the context in which a religious group survives and "cultivates" itself in a setting where they might be outnumbered by other larger religious groups surrounding them.

@Space Merchant  I cannot understand your logic, so please explain to me you thinking.
Are you saying that there are many different types of Christian churches / religions / groups, that are serving God properly ? 
Are you saying that a person does not need to belong to one type of Christian group ?
You seem to find some good things in many different religions. So do you think that God or Christ works through many different Christian groups / religions ? 
Do you also think that God or Christ will give spiritual guidance to a person that is not part of a religious group ?
Do you think that if a person prays to God for spiritual guidance to gain understanding from the Bible, that God through Christ will give that person a better understanding of His written word ? 
Or do you feel that a person must be part of a particular religious group ? 
It would be nice to know your thought on these things.
Thank you, John
 

Do you by this answer suggesting, how in the same time here on Earth, beside not inspired prophets, existing also inspired prophets??
And please stop with this WTJWORG Mantra, how people are NOT INSPIRED but in the same time they are LED BY SPIRIT :))) This sort of logic is out of Mind.
 
Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Let Your good Spirit lead me on level ground. - Psalm                                    For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. - Romans                                                                        But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. - Galatians
How does WTJWORG stand is when faced with this meanings of LED? How looks LEVEL GROUND of WT Society? Or are they below ground level, and rowing to surface with constant error  mandate instructions that members have to obey?                                                                                                                                                                                                     What sort of sons they are if they making claims/spread doubt, under spirit led guidance;   Do the other sheep need to know the names of all anointed ones still on earth today? No. Why not? Because it is not possible for anyone to know for sure that these ones will get their reward...  Anointed Christians cannot be sure that they will receive their reward until Jehovah makes it clear to them that he has judged them as faithful... So anointed ones do not think that they are better than others. They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else...They also know that when Jehovah anointed them, he did not let everyone else know about it. So an anointed person is not surprised if some do not believe right away that he has been anointed...Unlike Jehovah, the brothers who count the number of people eating the bread and drinking the wine at the Memorial do not know who truly is anointed. So the number includes those who think that they are anointed but are not. For example, some who used to eat the bread and drink the wine later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems and believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Clearly, we do not know exactly how many anointed ones are left on earth. - JWorg library source
- They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants...  This Act of/when JHVH Giving His HS, to me means, giving inspiration. It is ACTION that God making to someone, This God's decision to Give NOT depends on some person who wish or want HS, who working in Betel or study Bible 12 hours a day or spend 90 hours in preaching with Tablet and magazines or who just sitting and waiting. Because even Donkey can be inspired and talk God's words. If God can make donkey to preach by act of HS Inspiration why is problem to accept possibility of Inspiration on human who are made on JHVH Image? 
Well, we have here (in WT Society) constant playing with terminology and lexis. We have people who showing their belongings to anointed class, who are, supposedly, appointed by God to be in Leading Position or Governing position as Body, but who denied even small possibility that God is powerful enough to put His Spirit on them and to be Source and Cause. In same time this people tell others to obey and listen to them as to God and Jesus because Organization (Corporation) is, imagine!!, led by this same Spirit, which they denied that have power over them. So we have here Donkey (WTJWORG Corporation) on whom God can put His Spirit, but can not put His Spirit on Balaam (Governing Body) :)))        
       

Do you by this answer suggesting, how in the same time here on Earth, beside not inspired prophets, existing also inspired prophets??
And please stop with this WTJWORG Mantra, how people are NOT INSPIRED but in the same time they are LED BY SPIRIT :))) This sort of logic is out of Mind.
 
Teach me to do Your will, For You are my God; Let Your good Spirit lead me on level ground. - Psalm                                    For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. - Romans                                                                        But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law. - Galatians
How does WTJWORG stand is when faced with this meanings of LED? How looks LEVEL GROUND of WT Society? Or are they below ground level, and rowing to surface with constant error  mandate instructions that members have to obey?                                                                                                                                                                                                     What sort of sons they are if they making claims/spread doubt, under spirit led guidance;   Do the other sheep need to know the names of all anointed ones still on earth today? No. Why not? Because it is not possible for anyone to know for sure that these ones will get their reward...  Anointed Christians cannot be sure that they will receive their reward until Jehovah makes it clear to them that he has judged them as faithful... So anointed ones do not think that they are better than others. They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants. And they do not feel that they can understand Bible truths more deeply than anyone else...They also know that when Jehovah anointed them, he did not let everyone else know about it. So an anointed person is not surprised if some do not believe right away that he has been anointed...Unlike Jehovah, the brothers who count the number of people eating the bread and drinking the wine at the Memorial do not know who truly is anointed. So the number includes those who think that they are anointed but are not. For example, some who used to eat the bread and drink the wine later stopped. Others may have mental or emotional problems and believe that they will rule with Christ in heaven. Clearly, we do not know exactly how many anointed ones are left on earth. - JWorg library source
- They know that Jehovah does not necessarily give anointed ones more holy spirit than he gives his other servants...  This Act of/when JHVH Giving His HS, to me means, giving inspiration. It is ACTION that God making to someone, This God's decision to Give NOT depends on some person who wish or want HS, who working in Betel or study Bible 12 hours a day or spend 90 hours in preaching with Tablet and magazines or who just sitting and waiting. Because even Donkey can be inspired and talk God's words. If God can make donkey to preach by act of HS Inspiration why is problem to accept possibility of Inspiration on human who are made on JHVH Image? 
Well, we have here (in WT Society) constant playing with terminology and lexis. We have people who showing their belongings to anointed class, who are, supposedly, appointed by God to be in Leading Position or Governing position as Body, but who denied even small possibility that God is powerful enough to put His Spirit on them and to be Source and Cause. In same time this people tell others to obey and listen to them as to God and Jesus because Organization (Corporation) is, imagine!!, led by this same Spirit, which they denied that have power over them. So we have here Donkey (WTJWORG Corporation) on whom God can put His Spirit, but can not put His Spirit on Balaam (Governing Body) :)))        
       

Things like this are a good test of peoples' integrity.  
ESPECIALLY when the test has a simple YES or NO answer, and they are aware that they will answer to Almighty God, for lying.  Honest questions deserve honest answers, and unless life or liberty are at stake, are appropriate.
Especially in a discussion room where credibility is so very important ... as we are casually discussing life and death matters.
 


so here goes.....
1.) BillyTheKid46, ... are you now or have you ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses ? ... and,
2.) are you now, or have ever been a Watchtower Lawyer, or anything similar?
3.) Space Merchant:  Are you now or have you ever been one of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Working on the exchange of information theory of Steven Covey, in "The Seven Habits of Successful People", about emotional "bank accounts" ... that it is immoral to try and make a withdrawal without having enough "deposits" to cover it ... please consider all the personal information about myself I have freely given here, to try and contribute to general understanding ... including my real name, and real picture, ad nauseaum, as enough "deposit" to cover the request for a withdrawal from YOUR emotional bank accounts, for information not already volunteered.
Of course this only works between men of integrity, and will be ridiculed and/or ignored by weasels.