JOHN BUTLER

@Space Merchant ,
 
 Although you sympathize with the Watchtower, you have ideas that just wouldn’t fly if you were a JW.  To be so vocal about those ideas as a dedicated JW, could cause you to be disfellowshipped.  Then, you would understand what it means to be cut off – spiritually viewed as dead – by those you thought were your brothers and sisters.  As it is, within the Watchtower organization, you are not presently even considered a “brother”.  Your views are shrugged off by the majority since you are perceived as never receiving “the truth”. 
If you were to dare preach Christ as your only Head, you would be disfellowshipped, for the GB has assumed headship over the anointed and all.  If you disagreed with a teaching, knowing full well it had the ability to change within a few years and voiced it as the lie that it was shown up to be, you would be disfellowshipped.  
As a JW, where would your love for pure worship come to an end?  Would you continue to proclaim your beliefs as you do here, or would you fall into the fear of men and refuse to speak up for Truth?  This is where JWs are at.  Either they buckle down and accept all of the GB’s teachings, or they express themselves as Christ did, and face the cutting off that he predicted would happen to those who love HIM and not a blasphemous organization. 
As much as you want to be, you are not my teacher.  That would be Christ and the Holy Spirit.  If I share the same belief as other anointed ones, we are working as the Body should, under one Lord, one faith, one baptism.   Eph 4:3-5

Be cautious and evaluate, yes of course. 
But not be blind or pretend not to see the truth about the JW Org. 
Unless you too are saying all the Child Abuse Victims are telling lies. Are you ? 
I agree with the Proverbs scripture, but the naive ones are the JW congregants that believe every word of the GB. 

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 
Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 
And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 
As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 
Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 
I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

apostate əˈpɒsteɪt/ noun   1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith" synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More         adjective   1. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle. "an apostate Roman Catholic"

And yet when he judges me you voted it up. I am not a stubborn person ..... S.M.  I tell you in truth i never even thought he was making a direct comment against you. I just agreed with the comment as a general comment. 
Although i know the answers are given to previous comments, I see the answers as more of a general comment to the whole group. 
And when i said how i felt i was being treated, i did not mean by you personally, I meant generally. . 
As for the rest of your comment here , it is too long for me to concentrate on. 
Sorry S. M.  I am not a puppet for Srecko and i come here as an individual. I do not take sides, I am my own person. 
I comment as I see fit and will continue to do so. 

apostate əˈpɒsteɪt/ noun   1. a person who renounces a religious or political belief or principle. "after fifty years as an apostate he returned to the faith" synonyms: dissenter, heretic, nonconformist; More         adjective   1. abandoning a religious or political belief or principle. "an apostate Roman Catholic"

When Muslims blow themselves up in terroristic activities, they believe that they will go to Paradise (Heaven?) and get 72 Virgins.
If they convert to Catholicism, and become priests, they can get that NOW!

I would just like to state for the record that as the owner of this website... I do not like pejorative labels.
LABEL and KILL seems to be the way most groups continue to operate nowadays.
I realize that all you different religions are free to exercise what you believe in.....
however I would like to push MY OWN POINT of thought that we ALL should try to stop using labels on people.
I keep seeing different religions on here use the pejorative label "APOSTATE"...... 
Why does anyone in 2018 still subscribe to this antiquated way of thinking?
 
And IF by chance you still do subscribe to this religious mentality .... please realize that the rest of the world doesn't care about how you label others.
They have MOVED ON.....
Try to keep up people.
This technology alone is proving far superior to any fear based religion. Both pro and anti religious groups should try to avoid labels and stick to facts.
- End of rant.
p.s. - I still use the label SPAMMERS in a pejorative sense. Nobody is perfect. 

Just a couple of points Space Merchant. 
If Hitler had made a comment i thought was true, I would back up the comment, not the man.
If Srecko makes a comment which I agree with I will say that i agree with that comment.. I will judge the comment not the man or woman making it. I will also not go back ten pages to look for other comments they have made. 
I have in fact felt this  "stubborn and persistent"  attitude against me on here, but I'm not moved by it. 
Space Merchant says : "But yes, every time a biblical fact is thrown into their face, they are quick to bring up JWs, when I am talking solely about the Church Structure..." 
Um, go to the very top of the page. Read what this site is all about . JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES PUBLIC CLUB.  Then look at the topic heading Jehovah's witnesses ..... Armageddon. What makes THEM  think it will still happen ? It is about the Jehovah's witnesses, not about the Church structure or the early church. 

I'll agree this topic has certainly gone way off line but I didn't start it and I don't want the limelight, even though some may think i do.
The word Apostate just means someone that has turned away from their former religion. So the disciples were in fact Apostates to the Jewish religion.  But the JW Org seem to want it to mean, someone who has turned against God and Jesus Christ.
Hence the JW Org love the word Apostate as it serves as ammunition for them to dislike / not talk to former Witnesses. A rather sad situation but that's as it is.
Tom has made a number of sweeping statements or suggestions or implications here, some of which hold water others not.
I'll agree with Tom that the 'homosexual lifestyle' is something that some ex JW's  turn to. I was very disappointed with the 'protests' in London earlier this year, outside of JW conventions. I'm glad I was not any part of those protests. One particular homoseual showing off and becoming 'famous' amongst the protesters. Yuk.
Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.
"Essentially, they don’t like the idea that Christians should be separate from the world". Really Tom ? And you have spoken to so many of them in person have you about this issue ?  Remember you are talking about apostates. People that have turned away from their former religion, not turned away from God or Christ........ 
There are so many things in your last paragraph that try to once again blanket over all, that it is laughable. 
1. Theocracy. Where is your proof of it ?  Catholics could say the same sentence that you have written.
In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses / Catholics / Protestants  disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy. Is it so funny.
Unless you can prove without doubt, that the JW Org and it's Governing Body are being directly guided by God through Jesus Christ, then what you are  saying means nothing. 
2.  "We are after all being taught by Jehovah".  Sweeping statement with again no proof.
Tom, we come back to,  'Can you prove the GB are the Faithful and discreet slave ?' Can you prove they are getting direct information from Jehovah ? If not then your above statement is at best a guess. 
Oh, and back to the beginning of your comment. 
"They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled!"
Um, my brother is an Elder in a congregation here in England and he agrees with me that if you ask to many questions and if you disagree with the GB, you can and probably will be disfellowshipped for, "Causing a division within the congregation". 
Hence I left before making any statements to anyone. 
 
 

Very true. Minus the bacon (if you catch that reference regarding translators) Some books are to be tasted, others to be swallowed, and some few to be chewed and digested.
Also I do not know if you know this but, there are people who think if they eat the pages of the Bible, they somehow gain insight. I think a similar situation some guy ate an entire bible as his last meal.
 

If it was clear, why state the obvious? Also it is in the thousands. and among the thousands there is only a few who actual recognize the early church, they strive to be like it, they attempt it, they fail at it and or ignore it. Some denominations no longer exist for they have ceased and or died out, I believe I posted a list somewhere before, but around that time I was talking about calamity, such as mass earthquakes and the like.
Restorationist Christain are pretty much a small, but also big, minority, however this group, as an organized religion, is not little or is it big. They are sitting at, just putting JWs all on the same boat, about 8.5 million, they had several thousand increase in a small span of time and might hit anywhere between 8.6-9 million. I also like to say it is the JWs only, if you include those who are with them as in guests, students and so forth, it is in the 20 million range, possibly higher. I would say the reason for this is because mainstream Christendom is declining so you have people going into other denominations in the minorities, on the other side of the spectrum, you have Islam, which is, possibly bigger and also growing, and may surpass the mainstream, granted it is said, spoken of mid 2015 as it being a main contender to mainstream Christianity.
Restorationist Christians who are not tied to any denomination, it is hard to tell for these folk because they, literally live off-grid, examples who be this one guy I posted a video about here who had been off the grid for so long he was absent for 8 years, rumored to have been dead and or killed, even had be concerned, but he resurfaced again, there are a few thousands like him, but combining all Restorationnist as a whole, both individuals and groups, I cannot say.
I have been very vocal on here of who is actually following the truth of the early church.
The Apostolic Christians had everything down to the letter, or in this case, the Didache. The Church and her people, the church and her teachings that is being professed, of which one must follow.
To quote myself:
I am aware there are those who attempt to be and or already are. And it has been known that Restorationist are the type of Christians to not adhere and or align themselves with mainstream Christianity, thus making them entirely different, but at their core they only care about following the teachings of the early Apostolic Church and putting that into application even in this day and age and onward, for Restorationist Christians are learners as they go and progress.
I would post the Didahe, but that is a full posting on it's own, I will just make reference to it: The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (60 - 120 A.D.)
One would have to simply go back to the Early Church and Christians, for they knew God, who he was and his thinking, thus having the ten commandments come in form of principles and the Sh'ma.
God gives us direction and truth by means of his word and he expects us to put that into application, this also goes for the commands of his Son, Christ Jesus, and what His Son wants us, Christians, to do, for we are of that same house with others who are aware of which Covenant they are under.
By means of his word, God has also people, imperfect ones, who profess what is true and abide by what is true, although such ones can make mistakes, as is with past followers of God, even of Christ, such ones still do what is best, what is necessary to get word out of the gospel, the good news, the Messianic Age, what is to come, what is to expect.
The problem here is that there are others, false ones, who twist the information into something that it is not. One of the many things I have a total disdain for is the Trinity, the teaching that God is his own Son, or anything that is of an accursed doctrine, mockery of the holy spirit and so forth, and lastly, those who are clearly defending spurious text which was added into the Bible, something of which I am 100%+1,000% vocal about, even to the point on several instances I stumble on myself out going overboard when professing facts.
That being said, as Christians we need to know the Bible and the history of the scriptures, we need to know the history of the early church and Christians, otherwise we would be in a position that reveals utter ignorance and or problematic issues that others will correct, sometimes with sheer criticism, an example would be regarding the other post about a certain fishermen.
Mr. Bulter, you can start by studying, researching, and meditating on the early church. Before you do so, I suggest reading through Matthew 16 carefully, then go about the research of the Apostolic Age, for you will find out things that the mainstream does not tell you about the church, examples like how most early Christians were technically Subornationist, or the fact that Trinitarians and Modalist joined forced to stamp out other beliefs when they themselves know they are in the wrong. Things of that nature.
God has given me the ability to learn, as is with all men. I take learning things with sheer seriousness. I can speak of any denomination because I studied them, I even studied Judaism and Islam, even though I am a Unitarian Christian myself, who, among the few, who believes in pre-existence. Like I told you before, we are all servants, slaves, we are not above anyone, nor are we below, weak or superior, and so forth.
I can be very critical at times, even strict, but the truth will be spoken. I do not take lightly to false and or erroneous Christologies in order to paint someone in a bad light, the very reason why if something is of conspiracy and or other, I speak up, and at times, people cannot handle the truth to the point they run for the hills and cry for admin to lock down a thread.
All of us can learn, but those who remain ignorant to learning only shows themselves to be the villain, in this sense. There is also a time for common ground whereas despite the views there are things that are agreeable to both sides, example would be, I can agree and discussion with someone who is a Muslim about Sura-112 in the Qu'ran, which to us in the Bible is Deuteronomy 6:4 regarding the Sh'ma. Things like that, and I say this because I speak with one too many Muslims elsewhere,and among them several Christians who are for and against the Trinity are present, some from the Soco crew are not pleasant people, even some JWs showed up, one I had challenged named Kathgar because an Agnostic had something interesting to say that led me on a goose chase.

The GB are at LEAST totally aware of that.
They are TOTALLY DESTROYING their credibility on every subject imaginable.
THAT'S why shunning forbids people to talk to each other.

I'll agree this topic has certainly gone way off line but I didn't start it and I don't want the limelight, even though some may think i do.
The word Apostate just means someone that has turned away from their former religion. So the disciples were in fact Apostates to the Jewish religion.  But the JW Org seem to want it to mean, someone who has turned against God and Jesus Christ.
Hence the JW Org love the word Apostate as it serves as ammunition for them to dislike / not talk to former Witnesses. A rather sad situation but that's as it is.
Tom has made a number of sweeping statements or suggestions or implications here, some of which hold water others not.
I'll agree with Tom that the 'homosexual lifestyle' is something that some ex JW's  turn to. I was very disappointed with the 'protests' in London earlier this year, outside of JW conventions. I'm glad I was not any part of those protests. One particular homoseual showing off and becoming 'famous' amongst the protesters. Yuk.
Tom's next statement is so much a blanket statement that i would have thought it was beneath him.
"Essentially, they don’t like the idea that Christians should be separate from the world". Really Tom ? And you have spoken to so many of them in person have you about this issue ?  Remember you are talking about apostates. People that have turned away from their former religion, not turned away from God or Christ........ 
There are so many things in your last paragraph that try to once again blanket over all, that it is laughable. 
1. Theocracy. Where is your proof of it ?  Catholics could say the same sentence that you have written.
In fact, many of Jehovah’s Witnesses / Catholics / Protestants  disagree with this or that aspect of theocracy. Is it so funny.
Unless you can prove without doubt, that the JW Org and it's Governing Body are being directly guided by God through Jesus Christ, then what you are  saying means nothing. 
2.  "We are after all being taught by Jehovah".  Sweeping statement with again no proof.
Tom, we come back to,  'Can you prove the GB are the Faithful and discreet slave ?' Can you prove they are getting direct information from Jehovah ? If not then your above statement is at best a guess. 
Oh, and back to the beginning of your comment. 
"They push for all it is worth the idea that all you have to do is disagree with the GB and you will be expelled!"
Um, my brother is an Elder in a congregation here in England and he agrees with me that if you ask to many questions and if you disagree with the GB, you can and probably will be disfellowshipped for, "Causing a division within the congregation". 
Hence I left before making any statements to anyone. 
 
 

Watchtower logic is like this:
What we told and what we teach is true. Now we just have to wait for new information's that will prove opposite or different. Meanwhile, all who would disagree with us must go, in this way or another.
:)))) haha .. for my opposers

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 
Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 
I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  
I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 
Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 
As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 
 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 
The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

And your point is ?
Please don't just slap scriptures all over the screen like 'Gone Away' does. 
It means nothing. It proves nothing. It is not helpful in any way. 
I'm sure even the Pope could quote scripture. 
 

I entirely agree with your last sentence and that is what I am hoping will happen very soon. 
Remember that the scripture says at Luke 12 v 45 & 46. :-
But if ever that slave should say in his heart, ‘My master delays coming,’n and starts to beat the male and female servants and to eat and drink and get drunk,o 46  the master of that slave will come on a day that he is not expecting him and at an hour that he does not know, and he will punish him with the greatest severity and assign him a part with the unfaithful ones.
I am hoping that the GB will be removed from the JW Org and replaced by honest hearted ones. 
But your illustration concerning Jesus and his disciples brings up other issues. In that case the people could easily see who Jesus was using to help him feed the crowd. It was clearly visible to the eyes. And the food was proven to be good food too.
However, it is not so easy for anyone to see who is chosen to distribute the spiritual food at this time. And also to know if the food distributed actually is approved of by God or Jesus Christ. 
Add to this that those who give themselves the title of 'Faithful and discreet slave' actually judge others of the anointed. And that the food they give is often withdrawn by them later, because it is not good food at all. It is proved to be poison. 
'The important thing for "the domestics" is that the food is distributed'
Is it ? Or is it that the food is truthful and correct and that it does actually come from the Master and not men's own thinking. 

If we were all inspired of God and all had the same communication with God via Jesus Christ then why would we need a 'faithful and discreet slave' to 'feed us the right food at the proper time' ?  We could all get fed directly from God via Christ. 
However the GB claim to be the only ones capable of feeding us in the proper way, as they say that they (those 8 men) are the only 'Faithful and discreet slave'. 
Quote : "However, we would would need to agree that the "chosen ones" would need to be living up to that choice".
Do you mean that they would need to be deserving of such true communication ? 

I have always wondered if the Bible is for 'all of us' to understand fully, or if it's only for a chosen few to fully understand.
I don't mean is it just for one 'religion' to understand, I mean is it just for say 'an anointed group of people to understand'? 
Jesus spoke in illustrations to the people, but the disciples asked Jesus what the illustrations meant. Then Jesus would explain the illustration to them fully. 
Jesus told his disciples that 'to them the sacred secrets would be revealed' but that the crowd would not get the meaning of such things. 
It was also that after Jesus was resurrected he opened the eyes of his disciples / apostles so that they began to fully understand all things.
For my part I would never expect to fully understand God's word the Bible. A lot of it is straight forward of course, and easy to comprehend.
But I think a lot of it is 'in deep code' so to speak, only fully understood by those that Jehovah chooses.. 
It still seems strange to me, but it would be a separate topic, that God allows it to be so difficult for people to find any truth amongst the huge amount of lies in 'religion'. 
However, in my opinion, there has to be a 'group of humans' 'anointed people' that do have some direct contact with God, through Jesus Christ. 
We no longer have 'miracles' being done in Christ's name, so it is difficult to know exactly who the 'chosen ones' are. 
If there was a 'body of people' that could prove that they had God's approval and God's holy spirit, that would make life much easier. 
However when those that say they are chosen either make mistakes or tell lies about the meaning of scripture, and then their predictions fail, then they seem to prove themselves false or without God's guidance.
So we go back to square one. Is there really a 'body of people' being truly guided and upbuilt by God's holy spirit at this time ? 
Is the Bible and it's prophecies being fully opened up to such ones ?
 

This topic is about Armageddon, will it won't it happen ?  I get moaned at for not keeping on topic. 
Therefore if I reply to your comment I will get shot up by the World News Media police. They seem to love to bully only me in this regard. 
I am actually a 'member' of the JW org web page, with log in details etc. As for it being 'honesty and truth' well that is up to each of us to decide if we believe that.  
I also studied last Sunday's study article in the W/T, which i found amusing. Even though my wife is told by the Elders not to talk to me about spiritual things, as she is not baptised it not for the Elders to decide, so we still converse about such matters. 
Concerning the Child abuse issue, I would love to discuss this but it would probably need to be elsewhere or a new topic. 
As you say, WE are all guilty. That was why I left the Org, so as not to be guilty. But I must leave it there for fear of being shot down. 
 

Sounds like you are making threats, and proves the WT are getting to be more a part of the world than ever. 
The GB should give more of it's time to worrying about a more important type of violation, that of children. 

Who inspected the tightness of their trousers ?  No one. 
Who asked them if they masterbated and told them not to ? No one.
There were more important issues then. 
It seems as if there are no really important issues now, so the GB are making things up to keep themselves  busy. 
 
 

True colours showing now, unfortunately. But the scripture always does that I find. Heb.4:12.
Don't worry. I'll leave you to your quest John Butler.