César Chávez

Huh! All that you have to do here to establish your reputation as Teller of TRUTH is to disappear!
If I wasn’t worried about breaking the heart of the old hen, I’d do it myself!
”Ah, TrueTom,” they will say. “He really was true! But we didn’t realize it until he was long gone! If only we had recognized his genius and integrity while he was with us!”

I would love them if they remove me too, i tried unsubscribing but doesn't seem to work...
 

You tried that one on me too!   Playing mind games? Heh?

if one could win a Nobel prize for thumbsuck - you would win it every year! 

Wouldn't be the first time a jw woman got disfellowshipped for being raped.

Silly me, I forgot you jw's believe children are committing fornication when they are molested.

I'm just borrowing your quote, not necessarily directing my comment to you.
In this video ,”Gog of Magog” is mentioned as coming against JWs or “God’s people” during Armageddon, since apparently by that time, no other religion will be in existence.  So, JWs are basically surrounded by "Gog of Magog".  It then mentions, the thousand-year reign of Christ begins. 
Geoffrey Jackson states, “that destruction of the wicked will usher in the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ. After the final test at the end of the thousand years, what will be the situation…?”
He doesn’t say how that final test will come about.  It must be a surprise for JWs to find out…in time!
But really, how could he dare mention it, when God’s Word says,
“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.”  Rev 20:7-10 
Hmmm.  Maybe the GB really believe that the "thousand years" has ended, and Satan has been let loose out of the abyss to deceive God's saints. 
“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand."  Matt 24:23,24
I can't link the video successfully, but it can be found under "Programs and Events", the Annual Meeting for 2018, where Geoffrey Jackson gives his part.  

Revelation only gives one account of the appearance of Gog and Magog.  Geoffrey Jackson says this happens during Armageddon.  That means, it cannot happen after Armageddon and into the Kingdom of God. Gog and Magog do not appear twice.  So, he has made up his own narrative by saying another "test" will arrive after Armageddon.  And all JWs should be challenging his teaching.
 "For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." 1 Pet 3:18-20
or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).”  Rom 10:7
 “For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to [b]hell (“Tartarus”)  and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly”   2 Pet 2:4-5
αρταρόω tartaróō, tar-tar-o'-o; from Τάρταρος Tártaros (the deepest abyss of Hades)
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished.”  Rev 20:1-3
“Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison”  Rev 20:7
They are one in the same.   
You must be suffering some confusion about "hell" being translated as "Tartarus", since your doctrine says, it is the "common grave of mankind".  When Jesus died, he was in the abyss as Paul brought out - the "bottomless pit" of darkness.
Wow. To think that a God of love is the source of wicked testing.  
 
God is not the source of testing.  Remember, he warned Adam and Eve about resisting the “forbidden fruit”.  He gave them free will to choose.  It is Satan who desires to destroy all life, who is the source of our tests.  He was that “tree of knowledge.”
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and He himself tempts no one.”  James 1:13
 
Since God always warns us of impending disaster for our actions, in your “thousand years” to come, will He warn you of Satan’s deceitful “test” that you will face?  Since you believe this test will arrive long into the Kingdom, then there should be warning about its happening.  I only see warning in the scriptures about Satan's final test happening now.
Should I call you a false teacher for saying that God is the source of our testing?  Well, that's debatable.  I know you are influenced by false teachers, but as Jesus warns all of us - 
"For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”  Matt 12:37
 
 
 
 

But it allows people like you to keep changing their names so I suppose you enjoy it  

I think this Forum and others are used by GB helpers as a measuring stick, to find out people's attitudes towards the GB and it's teachings. I think it is used in 'research' to see how much the GB think they can get away with and how obvious their wrong teachings are. Any sensible business looks for feedback good or bad. And the CCJW is just another business at the moment. They make money from 'real estate' and push that money offshore to hide it. They can research forums and find out how much people 'of the world' know about their wrongdoings. Simples. 

“Oh shut up, shut up, with your Kentucky Fried Foghorn Leghorn drawl!” was The rebuke to Beniot Blanc, and someone applied that to ME.
I understand. It is a bit wearing.
But what is the purpose of this forum? That varies in each person’s eyes. As far as the Witness organization Itself is concerned, it has no purpose at all and were it to vanish into the abyss I don’t think they would miss it.
Well....he gave YOU a free pass and not me. If it were the other way around.... grumble, grumble.....

You’ve got to be kidding me!
If those who descended into barbarism had offered the choice: Death by being hacked to pieces with machete or suffer us “supporting wrong instructions regarding how to deal with cases of pedophilia,” you think they would have deliberated the choice?
If those who slipped into barbarism had offered the choice: Death by being hacked to pieces with machete or suffer us no longer speaking to you, you think they would have deliberated the choice?
There is such a thing as carrying a grudge to the point of ludicrousness.

I do not see any signs that satan is now in the abbys -do you?  it seems like he is doing a pretty good job of ruining the earth and the humans in it..... 
 
the bride of Christ will join the groom in heaven - this takes place before Armageddon because they will assist Jesus during Armageddon. 

The government of Jehovah is sure to come - it is not just a promise.  It will come when Jehovah says the time is right.
 
That is why the GB urge us to preach and fulfill the commission given by Jehovah.  Do you preach as the new testament continually urges us to do? 

It's not unwelcome at all. I think that most of us have seen this idea in service and and in commentaries. And most of us have probably considered it (and dismissed it). It is such a big break from a "workable" understanding of Revelation and 1 Corinthians 15, that I dismiss it before I get very far into it. And that's because I see some potential contradictions among ALL the possibilities, but the idea that we are now in the 1,000 year reign seemed unworkable.
I'm fine with trying to work it through again since it's been so long. I don't have any time to do this today, but I'll put a few thoughts out here to at least show why I had a problem with it.
You believe that the 1,000 year reign of Christ began at the time he began to reign in the first century. So when does it end? At the time of tribulation/judgment/resurrection? When does Jesus hand back the Kingdom to his Father? When was/is Satan cast down, and angry for a short period of time? When was/is he abyssed? Are these the same periods. When is/was he let loose from the abyss? Yes, I believe that Jesus began to reign when he sat down at the right hand of God. 1 Cor 15:25 as much as says this. And, yes, we know from Col 1:13 that Christ already began gathering subjects to that Kingdom as soon as he was resurrected.
My problem with it is that the 1,000 years appears to be a literal time in history with a beginning and an end. Otherwise the scriptures could not say "the rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended." If it has a beginning and an end, then why not see it as a special, literal time period during the time of the otherwise everlasting kingdom.
(Revelation 11:15) . . .The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.”
I believe that this kingdom of the world did already become the Kingdom of God and Christ beginning when Jesus sat at the right hand of the throne of Majesty, at about the time of his resurrection, when "ALL authority was given him" and he could be called "King of Kings."
(1 Timothy 6:15) . . .He is the King of those who rule as kings . . .
But the biggest problem I have with claiming that we are already in the 1,000 year reign is that Jesus gave an indication that the end could come at any time, and that people could expect it, even in the first century. Paul said that the congregations could expect it at any time, even in the first century. He did not know if he or others alive at the time would live to see a "rapture" or if he or others would die first and be resurrected into the heavenly kingdom. 
What kind of "1,000 year reign" could have started around 33, when Jesus was resurrected, but then might have ended at a judgment day, perhaps only 70 years later?
Do you think that the 1,000 year reign is so symbolic that it refers to an unlimited time? If so, why does Revelation speak of the time when it is over, and why does Corinthians speak of a time when Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father?
I know that Russell thought he was already living in the 1,000 year reign, which is why his books were called "Millennial Dawn." But he thought that the 1,000 year reign began around 1874. When this was changed, it made sense to think of the thousand years as a time to prepare for, and accept billions of resurrected persons into the new earth (including the unrighteous). Practically it makes sense. If Satan had not yet been completely destroyed, it makes sense that in the overall scheme of showing Satan the verdict of his false claim, that this "court case" is completed with Satan witnessing his own failure before meeting his final fate.
So there is a certain "practicality" to the 1,000 year reign as a special time when God through Christ takes his great power and begins ruling as king, even though he has always been king, and Christ too will be king from long before and eternally after. It becomes one of those special times when one can say in a special way:
(1 Chronicles 16:31) 31 Let the heavens rejoice, and let the earth be joyful; Declare among the nations: ‘Jehovah has become King!’
I understand that Satan could be destroyed at Armageddon and this same scenario could play out. I also know that your point of view removes the problem of the "second Armageddon" at the end of the 1,000 year reign.
But we still have this, which can produce an issue for both points of view, but I think it is harder for your point of view:
(Revelation 20:4, 5) . . .And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.

You quote this scripture but you still think it OK to mix with such ones on a social level? You condemn us for disfellowshipping such ones?  Where is the hypocrisy? hhhhmmmmm.

Fornication - if your son had proof of this - he himself was guilty as an accomplice -  because he did not let the elders know.  He knows the principles set out in the bible.... we learn that we should not tolerate wickedness amongst us.  We do not help to cover up a problem, or wrongdoing.  How many times did David not write in the Psalms that he does not sit with the wicked or tolerate their deeds.
So your own thinking is warped as you assisted your son to accuse the elders …….but not to be part of the solution to the problem - to show courage and go to the elders and provide evidence,  ....…...or at least warn them so they could talk to the young man.....about his partying and drinking. 
If your son did not have proof of fornication to take to the elders but did not warn them that the young man is on a  self-indulgent path - he is is as guilty as you...I presume he had some warped guidance from you or have the same attitude as you.   He, like you, expected to get a guilty conviction from elders for behavior they probably were unaware of; they probably had no idea of the extent of the partying.  If there was not enough proof of adultery, your son could still have been part of the solution but instead blamed it on …...….privilege?  Victimhood attitude?  He could have been brave and been part of the solution but no, it is easier to be self-righteously superior and accuse the,,,,, privilege.... Did he expect the elders to have a crystal ball?  Did he expect the elders to follow up on the young man when they did not know that it was a pattern of behavior...  
Elders would have asked the young man if it is true.... maybe even believed his ...excuses...... but the young man would have been warned that he is on their radar.    Your son would have had the satisfaction that he pleased Jehovah - not people.     So if this issue came up again by another person telling the elders about the partying and drinking..... 2 witnesses,,,,that would be enough for elders to get serious about the young man and realize he is hiding something and maybe outright ask him if he has been involved in fornication...…
So your example is not proof of injustice and 'privilege' but proof of a sons cowardice to show integrity to snitch on buddies, which is as destructive as self-righteousness.

Seen enough of your warped accusations and logic. As I said before - you feed off your hate somehow...which is not based on justice.  It is based on raw emotion of hate for everything to do with JWs, GB.  Arguments that show both sides ( and there are people on this forum who are prepared to meet your arguments by validating some things you say, to try to think the way you do, in order to reason with you) these people do not touch your reasoning abilities at all. It is like Ground Hog Day (over and over) same old same old.... talking to you.
There is another person on here - same thing.  Over emotional - no sound biblical reasoning. Just triggered. triggered all the time …,,,, not using the bible  as a sound, logical, healthy disciplining tool (which I am prepared to listen to if arguments are based on reality) but as a self-righteous weapon to accuse, accuse, accuse...…… . It is really like ground hog day talking to you guys.  I have seen such good reasoning here on this forum and have learnt a lot myself.... but with you two - it is like a cul-de-sac - the pits. 

Very true.  It is why many leave the organization.  They want nothing more to do with false doctrine.  They can use the word of God to verify their reason for leaving.   How can the GB, who repeatedly err in direction, predictions and doctrine, direct the judgment of another, as spiritually "dead"?  (Rev 13:15)
Was Harold Camping a false prophet?  Yep, but he apologized for misleading thousands with false predictions.  Is the GB a composite "false prophet"?  Yep, and they make silly excuses for misleading millions with false predictions. 
Which one is forgiven by God?  You will most like say, the GB, of course! 
But the cowards, faithless, detestable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars—their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”  Rev 21:8
 
 
 
 
 

Well said. 
I sympathize with all victims but with the latest laws the government has shifted the responsibility of bad legislation onto all the organizations working with children.
The government changed the laws so the victims can go after old cases retroactively now they are adult and can talk and testify better and take the ' organization ' to court.  This means that the government is shifting its responsibility on the organizations who work with children. But many of these organizations have closed.... like boy scouts etc. We are still active.
There are not many JW cases but because it is JW, those who hate us blow up these cases as if we are all child molesters..... when most of us live clean, honest lives and hate these crimes.
They are not going after the perpetrator because they know it is too hard to convict.  They go after the organization - which in most cases did not have the resources ( child psychologists etc) to go after the perpetrator.
We are an organization which tries to create a safe environment for children but we are not a crime fighting organization. This is the job of the police and government. They should take these cases and get a conviction and put the perpetrator behind bars - not retroactively after 20 or 30 years put it on the organization.  
In this way the perpetrator is still walking free and JWs carry the shame. Perpetrator ....... does he have any consequences for his actions with this legislation! 

Just remember : it is much easier to critisize than to build up, easier to destroy than to show love.  When you are ready to destroy, one can use just about use anything as a weapon and you can hold your own because it is easier to break than unify.   Try it on your wife and you will see I am speaking truth.  

I couldn't help but think of the irony here.  What makes a JW vulnerable?  Having complete trust in the GB.  One would be vulnerable to the the results of their misguidance, which they admit, can happen.  
Yes.  On so many fronts, they are dealing with opposition and outcry against their leadership.  Mr. Glockentin gave three ways that "Lies create doubts and destroy trust". 
"Outright lies" - each false prediction and false doctrine in the organization fits this category
"Cunning reasoning" - 'if Jehovah and Jesus trust the slave, shouldn't you?' 
Here's another -
 The Governing Body is neither inspired nor infallible. Therefore, it can err indoctrinal matters or in organizational direction. In fact, the Watch Tower Publications Index includes the heading “Beliefs Clarified,” which lists adjustments in our Scriptural understanding since 1870. Of course, Jesus did not tell us that his faithful slave would produce perfect spiritual food. So how can we answer Jesus’ question: “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?”  Wt 17/2 p. 26,27   
"Easy solutions with empty promises" -  his own quote:
 
Of course, he was referring to the media's "fake news" and the "misinformation" from apostates.  
He stated, that the "greatest lie in the near future" is that of "peace and security".  It is "fake news and many, most people will believe it".  Well, if you're are a part of the only "way to succeed", wouldn't you have inner "peace and security" knowing that you will be led safely through the great tribulation?  
1 Thess 5:3
 
 

“ When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, “Come, make us gods **WHO WILL GO BEFORE US.**” Exod 32:1a 
 “So Moses went back to the Lord and said, “Oh, what a great sin these people have committed! They have made themselves gods of gold.” Exod 32:31 
 
Just recently on a jw video, Gajus Glockentin, a GB helper, said:
“LIES CREATES DOUBTS AND UNDERMINES OUR COMPLETE TRUST IN THE GOVERNING BODY.  THIS MAKES US VULNERABLE”
Vulnerable to what? To learning the truth about the idol JWs follow?  That trusting the GB is following blind men into a pit? Matt 15:14 Obviously, this is damage control resulting from the release of Furuli's book.
He continues:
“Jehovah will use his **organization** to **LEAD US** through the great tribulation. THERE IS JUST NO OTHER WAY TO SUCCEED”
This is a lie, and it definitely should create doubts in the JW mind.  It is no different than the rebels under Moses creating a golden calf to LEAD them, "GO BEFORE" them,  through the wilderness.    
“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”  Matt 11:28-30
“Truly I tell you, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”  Matt 17:20
 
 
 

if that hurt then I know that my reprove hit the mark.  (You called me out  for cooperation/obedience, remember?).
I only started calling out your -hate-OCD after seeing your repetitive behavior here on the forum as constant, repetitive and unreasonable hate.  That is all.  I do not reprove you every time you say some hateful or illogical things.... just on occasion, hoping to make you realize what you are doing. But is seems you are past any self-control. So I leave it at that.  I do not want this to become a forum of name calling even though I have given the hate-mongers a label.  The label was to make you think of your actions - that is all.  I am not like those guys who put a label on someone and then send them to the gas chambers...…  I care about all people while there is still time to do so. I have even commended you on occasion when you said something I could agree with. 
I already carry a label: an obedient Jehovah's Witness....  Soon people who hate our label will round us up and put us in modern-day concentration camps, re-education camps or start to liquidate us..... so we know what is waiting for us and proud to carry the label. We are prepared to pay the price.

We were dealing with the court system and secular authorities - their role ; and the role of elders...… can you not even keep to the context ?