xero

While I'm at it. There's this phrase we often hear. "I encouraged bro/sis X". 

I often counter something like "Well, it doesn't look that way to me from the reaction."

They react surprised.

I'll say "You may have intended to be encouraging, But intent isn't sufficient any more than telling a person you love them when they don't feel loved. It isn't about YOU it's about THEM. What makes another person feel encouraged is as different from what makes another person feel loved."

I had to explain this to my father years ago. 

I'm in IT so to use a technical illustration from the OSI model you have to have each layer of the communication stack from computer A to computer B communicate using the appropriate protocol. If one layer isn't performing the appropriate handshake and following the appropriate protocol, the message never reaches its target.

People are complicated and one size rarely fits all.

Just now, 4Jah2me said:

In the height of summer here in England, the Elders would moan at me for not wearing a jacket and tie to the meetings.  So Who makes the jacket and tie rules ? For sure it's not in God's written word.  No praise for actually being at the meeting with my wife and five children, just complaint about the way I was dressed. That's one small example of what I mean about Elders being policemen. 

 

I was counseled on how I walked up to the stage and that my shoes weren't shiny. I thought "What does it matter if I knuckle my way about the hall like a half-human primate? Plus, I hate dress shoes. So I found some that defied shining.?" 

I also got counseled on how I appeared to rely on human wisdom too much. So I indexed my remarks w/citations from publications. (Like the article in the awake magazine on the Heisenberg uncertainty principle as applied to free will) 

It was quite some time before I got appointed. I think they got embarrassed by the CO. What were they to do? A brother who fulfilled all his assignments, worked full time while being a regular pioneer and whose wife also was a regular pioneer? 

One brother once asked me "Have you ever wondered why you haven't been appointed as an elder?" I think I shamed/surprised him by saying "I think it's because Jehovah hasn't decided it's time yet."

You could see him get uncomfortable. (like he was thinking "wrongo bud! WE decide) 

I grew up as a gringo in Laredo, TX, so I'm used to getting picked on and hazed. I got it at home too. 

If I were to complain, what I'd get at home would be "What did YOU do to help create the situation", never taking my side.

So I'm used to taking a "What can I learn from this situation?". "I'm getting counsel. Is it biblical? Maybe. Does the brother think it is? Yes. Do I? Maybe. Do I have to tell him what I think? No. Is it good counsel for someone, even if not me? I'm sure it is somewhere and some time. Are you too proud to listen? No. Even if I think it's off."

So I think there's value in taking counsel and trying to see it from the other person's point of view.

I figured that if I help this brother use me as his crash-test dummy on giving counsel and make him feel good about the exchange, maybe he'll be less likely to do a crappy job of being an elder and maybe stop picking on people unnecessarily.

Glad to be a human punching bag. 

14 minutes ago, xero said:

Because there are some fatties out there who need some discipline.

1 minute ago, 4Jah2me said:

Then you are a most unusual Elder indeed  

It takes a lot of work. I have been called in to salute the flag on a few instances.

(I kept my fingers crossed)

Because there are some fatties out there who need some discipline.

50 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

To their credit, Russell and Rutherford and Franz and the current GB have all given good evidence that they hoped for the end. Sometimes a strong hope for the end will cloud one's judgment about the rationality of predicting a specific time period for the end. But there is a big difference in hoping for the end, which is always proper, and predicting a specific time period for the end, which is ALWAYS improper, according to Jesus. We have examples set before us in the Bible showing the folly of trying to predict the time period. The Bible gives many reasons why this is foolishness to try to predict the time period.

Hoping for the end implies faithfulness and humility. Predicting a specific time period for the end implies presumptuousness and haughtiness.

I can understand making predictions. I can't count the times I thought to myself during a meeting "Shhh!...I'm just looking at Daniel again...nothing to see here holy spirit..." as if the answer is in plain sight but hidden unless you look really quickly when Jehovah's not looking....

24 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

Jesus said “And I have other sheep, which are not of this fold;n those too I must bring in, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.

I find it funny how JWs always, only quote the tiny bit of a scripture, as it suits them. 

Anyway, I have 5 ebay parcels to pack, and as this conversation has no spiritual imput then i'll leave you to it. 

 

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And all the rest of the planet consider this to refer to the gentiles, not some magical crown-wearing people.

29 minutes ago, 4Jah2me said:

If you wish to consider yourself in that way, so be it. 

But the Elders do have to act like policemen in the congregation. Now here in the UK. laws are made, and the police have to carry out those laws. So it is in the Watchtower / JW Org. The GB makes rules and the Elders have to enforce those rules. 

I haven't enforced any GB rules. Just what's in the bible.

Just now, 4Jah2me said:

Yes, but then JWs have always misused scripture.

Just now, 4Jah2me said:

Yes, but then JWs have always misused scripture.

Whatever others have done makes no difference to me. The context makes it clear that NOT ONE of those counted righteous had a clue anyone was in some special "Christ's Brothers" category. One flock, one shepherd. Be decent to each other and don't cop a superior attitude.

Just now, 4Jah2me said:

Well I like to actually read what a person writes, then think on it, then reply.  In this comment here I've no idea what you are saying. As for your previous comment, it is just JW waffle. You are an Elder, you know what goes on and you will also know what has gone on in the past.  If you don't know, then you belong to an Organisation that you know nothing about. Add to that, that you are a 'police officer' with certain powers, in an Org that you know nothing about. 

 

I was wondering when we'd get to the implicit nazi collaboration comparisons.

15 minutes ago, xero said:

BTW - You know you've gotten into one of those stupid internet discussions as soon as you see people parsing people's words like they're playing checkers w/someone in the park. Hopping ...over...phrases.

I kindof like the happy haha face. Why wouldn't anyone like that? 

Makes me think of how people have lenses on the world.

New Microaggression Goggles Help You Find Something Offensive In Any Situation

U.S.—A new pair of Microaggression Goggles has been made available for people who want to find something offensive in any situation.

"Are you tired of having to search for something to be oppressed by?" a voiceover says in the ad. "With our patented microaggression-tracking technology, you won't have to search any longer. Now, you can instantly identify up to 100 things to be offended by in any conversation."

The product will detect a wide range of microaggressions, including the following:

• White privilege
• MAGA hats
• Smiling at you without your consent
• Manspreading
• Mansplaining
• Manbreathing
• Manexisting
• Lack of avocado toast
• Cultural appropriation
• Cultural exclusion
• Being hateful toward women
• Being too friendly toward women
• Not liking The Last Jedi

You can back the goggles for $99 at a base level or spend $4,999 on a deluxe edition that includes a white guy who will follow you around so you can claim to be even more oppressed. The Kickstarter creator believes they will ship within the next decade.

https://babylonbee.com/news/new-microaggression-goggles-help-you-find-something-offensive-in-any-situation

2 hours ago, 4Jah2me said:

Firstly this says Jesus  WILL SEND HIS ANGELS. Secondly this refers to the Anointed ones (his kingdom)  that cause stumbling.   Luke 17 : 1&2  tells us about stumbling. 

In my opinion this could well refer to the removal of the GB and all other wicked anointed ones. To be replaced by True Anointed ones. ( I will make a separate comment soon about this point. )

Now this says all the angels with him.    So refers to a different time. 

 

So this refers to the Earthly class. 

So this obviously refers to members of the Earthly class that have helped members of the True anointed. 

Hence it IS important to know who the True Anointed ones really are, although of course we should help as many people as possible. 

Both scriptures were 'in the future' at the time of writing them of course. Because they were written for the 'time of the end' which is yet to happen.

However I don't quite know what you mean by parallel as they are two totally different events. 

Is it important? You don't see ANY of those who were accounted among the righteous as recognizing ANY as Christ's brothers in the account. They just behaved decently in accord w/their conscience. That's all. Moreover they had the attitude. "When did we EVER do anything right?". 

I've always been interested in comma placement theory, and though the context suggests (and what I've researched in lexicons) like the "truly I tell you today ,(COMMA) you will be w/me in paradise" it makes me think a person could interpret this as "To the extent you did it to these least ones,(COMMA) my brothers,(COMMA) you did it to me" as a welcoming into the family. "Welcome BROTHERS!"

BTW - You know you've gotten into one of those stupid internet discussions as soon as you see people parsing people's words like they're playing checkers w/someone in the park. Hopping ...over...phrases.

1 hour ago, 4Jah2me said:

Well it seems as if JWs have no conscience about Child Sexual Abuse Earthwide within the Watchtower/JW Org. JWs just brush it off by saying, 'Well no one is perfect'. 

And it seems that JWs have no conscience about teaching lies to people on the door to door ministry. 

Actually i don't know what JWs do have a conscience about. 

If you see a crime, you have a responsibility to address the crime. I remember when someone asked me when I was on the street "what about Michael Jackson?". I said "He's not in my congregation. I can't speak to any of that." Likewise I can say in the decades I've been in no hint anywhere I've been that anyone is in support of or colluding with anyone to suppress abuse. Do I wish this sort of thing never happens anywhere? Yes. Do I think we'd be free from whatever infects the rest of human society? No. Do I have details on how the corporation WTBS has handled issues? No. 

Do I divorce myself from every human organization whose members have ever deflected from God's moral standards?

No.

I render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and to God the things which are God's.

Any judgement and any further actions which others take are up to those who view these things.

I see all organizations today as human because they are. I'm not a Catholic and I don't believe the pope is the vicar of Christ. I don't believe any organization is the vicar of Christ either. That said, I have to associate with those who I believe are doing the work "irregardless" (Tom)  of their real or imagined deficiencies.

Nothing is more like fingernails on a chalkboard are the voices of those who instead of singing God' s praises, praise the images of men or organizations created by men. Just stop the idolatry already.

4Jah - Right now we have people who profess to be anointed. None of us know whether anyone who makes such a profession is one or not. I rather suspect Paul would say to them:

“Do not go beyond the things that are written,” so that you may not be puffed up with pride,+ favoring one against the other. ⁷  For who makes you different from another? Indeed, what do you have that you did not receive?+ If, in fact, you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not receive it?⁸  Are you already satisfied? Are you already rich? Have you begun ruling as kings+ without us? I really wish that you had begun ruling as kings, so that we also might rule with you as kings.+  1 Cor. 4:6-8

Now since the heavens are Gods throne and the earth his footstool and all things on earth belong necessarily to Jesus Christ, I'd say through the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked ones, the whole of those who profess to Christianity are making professions of being the earthly part of his kingdom. This distinction has yet to be made perfectly clear as the wheat and the weeds are still growing together. "At THAT time will the righteous shine". Now this may be even more far removed from what everyone's thinking, but what it means to "shine" could mean 'reflecting like mirrors the glory of Jehovah" or it could mean this is what these appear to be in their resurrected and glorified state. I'm not dogmatic about this, but I do see that hard line dogmatism is usually about power over another's conscience.

All those who are really wearing invisible crowns (and are in recognition of their own degraded state) will not be spending their time pulling rank or worrying about others who may or may not have pulled rank as it were.

To go further, I see this in a similar jaundiced view as did Paul when he considered the chronic harping on circumcision in his time : 

 ⁴  But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly,+ who slipped in to spy on the freedom+ we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us;+ ⁵  we did not yield in submission to them,+ no, not for a moment,* so that the truth of the good news might continue with you.⁶  But regarding those who seemed to be important+—whatever they were makes no difference to me, for God does not go by a man’s outward appearance—those highly regarded men imparted nothing new to me....

¹²  I wish the men who are trying to unsettle you would emasculate themselves.* - Ga. 5:12

To wit - He will cull all things which cause stumbling. It doesn't matter if what's causing stumbling is a person wearing an invisible crown or not. All who profess to be under this kingdom "whether in pretense or in truth" will be culled. A Christian should focus on THEMSELVES and THEIR responsibility and let God sort the rest. 

15 minutes ago, Anna said:

Yes, it seems like it. Not sure what your point is though 😀

Just engaging in the same kind of thinking some of the CO's I've had private conversations with, when they were making points not yet made (yet).

I've had to be careful. I was reading the scriptures about asking, knocking, and seeking and persisting in this. The answers you may get may not be ripe for prime time (they could be wrong too). I try not to ask/knock/seek FOR other people (but here I'm doing it anyway by discussing this)

But...It could be then, that since the wheat and the weeds are still growing together one would hardly expect perfection anywhere. Anywhere.

11 hours ago, Witness said:

You had said it would be difficult to worship outside of an organization.  The difficulty comes when leaving it - leaving the life you have developed, and the people who would subsequently shun you...behind.  It is like the true Christians that fled to the mountains of Judea before Jerusalem was destroyed.  They made similar sacrifices, but they were blessed abundantly. (Matt 10:39; 19:29; Luke 14:26; 12:53)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The question is never "where should we go?" but "whom shall we follow?". We follow (as we are able) Jesus. Now the tough nut, is just how much diversity of conscience and diversity of opinion as to what is an absolute requirement to be considered faithful by Jesus, not by some external entity are we willing to tolerate? If we aren't careful, we'll be creating a cult of one, just ourselves. We absolutely need association with fellow believers, but again, how much diversity are we willing to allow? If we look with a critical eye at the accounts we read of life as a Christian in the first century, we see a lot of diversity and a lot of contention. No one was living their faith in lock-step with each other. People differed as to their opinions on following the law (or not). People were engaging in gossip. People were bad-mouthing their brothers, and Paul and others as well. Everything bad that could happen, did happen then. But they had a core hope. They all agreed that Jesus was the messiah. They had predictions about when the end would come (and they were wrong too). I understand it's harder for some than for others to remain when others don't share their views or when others appear to insist you share theirs. Guess what? The same thing happened in the first century.

So I asked before and I'll ask again. Was your experience all negative, or were there just aspects of it you found you simply couldn't reconcile? What of your beliefs do you have with which you can share with the wider group of people in the world who refer to themselves (and believe it) as "Christians".

Once I was asked by a person I'd called on for years whether I thought it was absolutely necessary to be a card-carrying JW to survive Armageddon. I said "I hope not. Because 27k hours later of talking w/people at the door has let me know how I'm no better (and probably worse) than a lot of people." He then asked "So why are you here then? Why do you do this?" I said "Inertia...that and for the same reason I lift weights and run. The weights don't change and the roads I run on don't change, but I do for the effort. Doing this work changed me and continues to change me, and I'd like to think for the better."

I was comparing Mt. 13:40-43 and Mt. 25:31-41.

The latter is future, waiting to be fulfilled, so wouldn't the parallel events in the former likewise be waiting to be fulfilled?

^"Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. The Son of man will send his angels, and they will collect out from his Kingdom all things that cause stumbling and people who practice lawlessness, and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be. At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father. Let the one who has ears listen. - Mt. 13:40-43

and

“When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.  All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.  And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world.  For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you?   When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’  In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. - Mt. 25:31-41

3 hours ago, Matthew9969 said:

Have you watched the movie Idocracy?

Watched it! I had a friend who was IN it.   (as an extra....)

3 hours ago, César Chávez said:

At what point do you personally think, Jesus thought about politics, other religions such as Paganism of the time. Let's not confuse man's imperfection with the perfection that Christ lived and combined it with his heavenly father's perfection. The zeal is toward expanding Christ commandments, so the heavenly kingdom can and shall be established on earth, by a perfect body.

Therefore, the objectivity of resources, only applies when signaling time of vigilance which has nothing to do with man's politics. The FACT, this site promotes such things only confirms, this is NOT a witness friendly site. This site is no different from an apostate site where such things are disguised. However, this "confusion" was furthered by witnesses NOT in good standing here, long ago. 1 Thessalonians 4:11-12, Philippians 3:20

I'm not sure what it is you think I'm talking about.

For some reason this clip came to mind...

I was thinking of writing a book. "Banned  in 60 Seconds! - Taking Your Trolling Skills to the Next Level". There's something about the thousands of hours spent in the field that teaches you just how quickly you can get under someone's skin. 

May as well include this list:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

https://www.openculture.com/2015/10/in-1704-isaac-newton-predicts-the-world-will-end-in-2060.html

I used to joke that if it doesn't come by 2034 (120 years from 1914) that I might reconsider. (Somehow people didn't think that as funny as I did.)

On the other hand....did I see Tom in the background of this video! 😲

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAvFFYu1RGM

Just now, Arauna said:

Lol - in your mind yes - because you are so far gone you do not even know how far beyond help you are.  Just the mention of Mr T's  name triggers you into thinking someone is a T supporter

I suppose Paul's use of his Roman citizenship would have been made him a supporter of the Roman Empire by the logic of some as would using it's roads or any of the downstream advantages of the Pax Romana.