James Thomas Rook Jr.

It makes more sense when explained with hand puppets!

The Brother hit his own head with a glass bottle?

Nana Fofana: I you had never even HEARD there was a "Gog of Magog", it would not affect your faith or salvation AT ALL. I am sure there IS a correct answer ... but I don't care .. I cared for years... then it was changed ... and changed... and Changed ... AND CHANGED. If I was that bad at MY job, I would have been be unemployable. ( I am retired now ... ). Everything NECESSARY to know and have faith in, and NECESSARY for salvation can be put on a single page of paper .... .... those First Century Christians had ... EVEN LESS THAN THAT!

I got beat up with ever changing definitions for a half century, and MORE. THEY WERE ALL WRONG You are confusing me with someone WHO CARES .

Cos: You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic .. and it's possibly only because you do not understand what is generally referred to a "figures of speech". When you hear on the News that North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb ... no they didn't. The MILITARY of North Korea tested a hydrogen bomb (if true). If the news says "The White House today said that this action will NOT be tolerated !'" The building itself did not actually say anything at all. The building is recognized as a symbol of the will of the President and his administration., In the scriptures giving personification to a force as a person ... like Reddy Kilowatt, or the HOLY SPIRIT, is what is known as a "Metonymy". It's a subset of a "Synecdoche", which is a subset of a "Metaphor" After all ... what's a meta phor? *coff"* This is what Wikipedia has to say about that: (bold type added by me) " Synecdoche is a rhetorical trope and a type of figurative speech similar to metonymy, a figure of speech in which a term that denotes one thing is used to refer to a related thing. Indeed, synecdoche is sometimes considered a subclass of metonymy. It is more distantly related to other figures of speech, such as metaphor.[6] More rigorously, metonymy and synecdoche can be considered subspecies of metaphor, intending metaphor as a type of conceptual substitution (as Quintilian does in Institutio oratoria Book VIII). In Lanham's Handlist of Rhetorical Terms,[7] the three terms have somewhat restrictive definitions, arguably in tune with a certain interpretation of their etymologies from Greek: Metaphor: changing a word from its literal meaning to one not properly applicable but analogous to it; assertion of identity rather than likeness, as with simile. Metonymy: substitution of cause for effect, proper name for one of its qualities, etc. Classification Synecdoche is often used as a type of personification by attaching a human aspect to a nonhuman thing. It is used in reference to political relations, including "having a footing", to mean a country or organization is in a position to act, or "the wrong hands", to describe opposing groups, usually in the context of military power. The two main types of synecdoche are microcosms and macrocosms. A microcosm is when a part of something is used to refer to the entirety.An example of this would be someone saying that they “need a hand" with a project, when they really need the entire person. A macrocosm is the opposite, when the entire structure of something is used to refer to a small part. An example of this could be referring to "the world", when the speaker really means a certain country or part of the world. The figure of speech is divided into the image (what the speaker uses to refer to something) and the subject (what is being referred to). This type of reference is quite common in politics. The residence of an executive is often credited for the executive's action. A spokesperson of the Executive Office of the President of the United States is identified in "The White House announced a new plan to reduce hunger." References to the King or Queen of the United Kingdom are made in the same fashion by referring to today's official residence, Buckingham Palace. Worldwide examples include "the Sublime Porte" of the Ottoman Empire, and "the Kremlin" of Russia. Sonnets and other forms of love poetry frequently use synecdoches to characterize the beloved in terms of individual body parts rather than a coherent whole. This practice is especially common in the Petrarchan sonnet, where the idealised beloved is often described part by part, from head to toe. It is also popular in advertising. Since synecdoche uses a part to represent a whole, its use requires the audience to make associations and "fill in the gaps", engaging with the ad by thinking about the product. Moreover, catching the attention of an audience with advertising is often referred to by advertisers as "getting eyeballs", another synecdoche. Synecdoche is very common in spoken English, especially in reference to sports. The names of cities are used as shorthand for their sports teams to describe events and their outcomes, such as "Denver won Monday's game", when it would be more accurate that a sports team from the city won the game.[ Kenneth Burke (1945), an American literary theorist, declared that in rhetoric the four master tropes, or figures of speech, are metaphor, metonymy, synecdoche, and irony. Burke's primary concern with these four master tropes is not simply their figurative usage but their role in the discovery and description of the truth. He described synecdoche as “part of the whole, whole for the part, container for the contained, sign for the thing signified, material for the thing made… cause for the effect, effect for the cause, genus for the species, species for the genus". In addition, Burke suggests that synecdoche patterns can include reversible pairs such as disease-cure. Burke proclaimed the noblest synecdoche is found in the description of microcosm and macrocosm" since microcosm is related to macrocosm as part to the whole, and either the whole can represent the part or the part can represent the whole".[15] Burke also compared synecdoche with the concept of "representation", especially in the political sense in which elected representatives stand in pars pro toto for their electorate. Part referring to whole (pars pro toto) Referring to people according to a single characteristic: "the gray beard" representing an older man or "the long hair" representing a hippie Referring to a large group of related peoples according to the proper name of one subgroup: Eskimos instead of Native Alaskans; Caucasians instead of Europeans or Whites Describing a complete vehicle as "wheels" referring to a vehicle's manual transmission by the control handle ("stick shift" or "stick") referring to the whole vehicle by the transmission control handle ("can you drive a stick?") Referring to people by a particular body part. For example, "head count" or "counting noses" Saying "bubbly" to refer to Champagne or any other sparkling wine Using "Arabian sands" to refer the Arabian deserts Using "ivories" to refer to a piano (particularly in the phrase "tickling the ivories", meaning to play the piano), by a pair of synecdoches: the piano designated by its part, the keys, which in turn were historically made of ivory He asked for her hand in marriage. Using "boba" to refer to the drink, Bubble tea General class name used to denote specific member of that or associated class Using "the good book" or "The Book" for the Bible ("Bible" itself comes from the Greek word for "book") Describing any four-wheel drive vehicle (including long-haul trailers, etc.) as a "truck" In the phrase, "He's good people", the word "people" is used to denote a specific instance of people (a single person) "The pill" is used to refer to 28-pill packets of the combined oral contraceptive pill, a common birth control method Specific class name referring to general set of associated things "John Hancock" used in the United States, for the signature of any person A genericized trademark, for example "Coke" for any variety of cola (or for any variety of soft drink, as in the southern United States), "Band-Aid" for any variety of adhesive bandage, or "Styrofoam" for any product made of expanded polystyrene A "Rube Goldberg (or Heath Robinson) contraption" to refer to any machine which seems overly complicated or bizarrely constructed Referring to material actually or supposedly used to make something "brass" for brass instruments, or the shell casings of bullet cartridges "cement" for concrete, cement being just the binder in concrete "glasses" for spectacles "armor" for tanks "paper" for a journal article or newspaper "pigskin" for an American or Canadian football "plastic" for a credit card "steel" for a sword "strings" for string instruments "threads" for clothing "tin" for a container made with tin plating Container is used to refer to its contents "barrel" for a barrel of oil "keg" for a keg of beer "He drank the cup", to refer to his drinking of the cup's contents " If the "White House" actually started talking .. I suspect people would be running out of all exits ... but that is the expression. GET USED TO IT. Perhaps I am different than most Jehovah's Witnesses ... and although JWs are often represented as a monolithic group of marching robots, that is not always true ... my guess is more than half would not agree with anything that violated their concept of plain old common sense, even though they would not press any points for fear of being disfellowshipped for apostasy. Among most people ..... there is truly infinite variety. I became one of Jehovah's witnesses FIRST ... because it made sense ... it agreed with the real world ... I did not have to stretch my perception of the Universe into a pretzel. The theology AGREED WITH PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE. I did not join because I agreed with them ... but because they agreed with ME. OK ... now, lets look at the two scriptures you quoted - I always like to put it in context with what went before, and what is stated after a cited scripture, to see if someone is trying to lead me up the creek to booger's woods. Isaiah 6:6-12New American Standard Bible (NASB) 6 Then one of the seraphim flew to me with a burning coal in his hand, which he had taken from the altar with tongs. 7 He touched my mouth with it and said, “Behold, this has touched your lips; and your iniquity is taken away and your sin is [a]forgiven.” 8 Then I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, “Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here am I. Send me!” 9 He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on listening, but do not perceive; Keep on looking, but do not understand.’ 10 “Render the hearts of this people [b]insensitive, Their ears [c]dull, And their eyes [d]dim, Otherwise they might see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, Understand with their hearts, And return and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered, “Until cities are devastated and without inhabitant, Houses are without people And the land is utterly desolate, 12 “The Lord has removed men far away, And the [e]forsaken places are many in the midst of the land." OK...fine scripture ... but it is only your OPINION that it relates to this discussion. Here's a clue for you Cos ... IT DON'T ! Acts 28:23-30New International Version (NIV) 23 They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus. 24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: “The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your ancestors when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 “‘Go to this people and say, “You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.” 27 For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’[a] 28 “Therefore I want you to know that God’s salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!” [29] [b] 30 For two whole years Paul stayed there in his own rented house and welcomed all who came to see him." From your viewpoint , this is a "worst case scenario" ... here we have another example of a synecdoche ... as the men received what they heard by inspiration due to an UN-NAMED force. But here is the clincher, which makes the most common sense .... "HOLY SPIRIT" IS NOT A PERSONAL NAME, ANY MORE THAN GAMMA RADIATION HAS A GOOD FRIEND NAMED "WENDY". It's "something", for sure, but NOT A PERSONAL NAME. When Jehovah wants to accomplish something fro 30 billion light years away ... there HAS to be a force carrier ... a DIRECTED force carrier, to make things happen at OUR END OF THE UNIVERSE. If you want to get a tan .. you use UV radiation that comes from the Sun, at this end. If you want God's blessing, you try to be the recipient of directed "Holy Spirit", at this end. Casper is a name FOR A SPIRIT, ....... but only The Farce will be with you. That's why "Casper the Friendly Ghost" was a COMIC BOOK. ps: And Casper DID have a friend ... Wendy the Witch. .

Cos: Even though we don't know what those names are, Jehovah has even named the stars of the heavens, and knows them all by a personalized, (which really means individual), name ....he did NOT give personalized individual names to the radiations they emit ...gamma radiation, x-rays, ultra violet, radio waves, infrared, etc. .... for electricity, Reddy Kilowatt comes to mind as a personalized name that power companies gave to Electricity as an advertising ploy.   before they realized you do not have to advertise electricity. PEOPLE are silly that way, but we enjoy being amused. I am going to keep this short, as today I have to work outside all day installing bundles of electrical wiring for my yard underground wiring system , and I don't want to get a sunburn from Fred ultraviolet light, or have a heat stroke from Wanda infrared light, and is rumored that If I am not careful, Reddy Kilowatt will try to kill me. I am silly THAT way. Forgive me ... it's silly to name FORCES with personal names as I have just done ( and the electrical companies did)...... that is why Jehovah does not do it. That is why the HOLY SPIRIT does NOT have a personal name , it, like a star, is a FORCE that emanates from God to affect things at the other end ... to accomplish his will at his direction. It is a DIRECTED force, not light sunlight that illuminates the solar system, and beyond. So ...ponder this ... why do trillions upon trillions of stars have a personalzed name ... and the HOLY SPIRIT does not ... only descriptions of WHAT IT DOES! Answer: (For those in Rio Linda...) IT'S A FORCE. Of course Casper the friendly farce may condemn me to hell for saying so ... but that would be...... "unfriendly" MAY THE FORCE BE WITH YOU, COS. Â

ANYBODY can explain "Gog of Magog" I am 70 years old, now. When I was about 7 years old I went with my mother to Assemblies which back then lasted from 9 in the morning to 9 at night .. and ALL DAY we heard about "Gog of Magog", with hundreds of supposedly related scriptures, reasonings, and predictions ... and even then I learned a LOT which has been helpful to me my entire life, and endures to this day. EVERYBODY ... is always wrong! no exceptions.

Looking at those charts, graphs and formulas ... they made no sense to me WHATSOEVER, and I made my living doing math for about 40 years, but not this complicated. ( I could have done better if wearing open-toed sandals..). While we were out in Service, I asked the smartest brother (seriously) at the Kingdom Hall I go to, if he could explain the new and improved "this generation..." to me. He was thoughtful for several moments, and said: "I think they are trying to do the best they can...". I thought about showing this post to my wife, Susan, who is a high school math teacher, to see if she could decipher them ... but I suspect her reply would be similar to Albert Einstein's reply when asked if he understood the U.S. Internal Revenue Service Tax Code ... " I am a mathematician .. NOT a philosopher". By the way .... I have included a Feynman Diagram that stumped Sheldon Cooper on the Season 1, episode 13 of the TV comedy "The Big Bang Theory", which is a LOT EASIER TO FIGURE OUT. The answer is reported to be " minus 8 pi alpha" . You can see almost instantly see they they misinterpreted some of the variables. ( For those in Rio Linda, That was a JOKE! ) UPDATE: Susan just walked in and saw the "equation" and got upset and said it was all "Mush". That reminded me of the famous "Drake Equation" ( go ahead.. look it up.. it's worth the effort ) that will accurately predict how many intelligent civilizations currently exist in the Milky Way Galaxy, or the Universe. IF ( if! ) you plug into the equation the correct set of values. That is the same problem that exists with EVERYTHING previous to this post. Since there is no evidence ANYONE has the correct values ... to either philosophy .. and that is what they are ... philosophy ... it's all a wild-assed guess (WAG). No more. MUSH

Cos: What you have stated is OPINION. You have proved NOTHING, except that you can type. Both God and Christ have a personal name ... what is the Holy Spirit's name .... Casper? If so, it must be a FRIENDLY spirit. YEAH, that's the ticket! ( ... for those in Rio Linda that was intended to be biting sarcasm .... because the Holy Spirit does NOT have a personal name ... and God and Christ do! ) note: ... descriptions do not count as personal names, no more than a warm blanket does... um .... not being a person... . . Even my seven dogs have personal names ...... in human English ..... I don't know if that is true in Arf. .

Yeah, I remember reading about Adolph Hitler about two hours before he shot himself, remarking .... "You know, those Allies just do NOT have ANY sense of humor!"

It is ? In this forum the burden of proof is on you. You have already proved by your own words in the Archive Topic "Demonism and the Watchtower", that you are completely clueless as to what constitutes proof, or reason, or logic, but I am willing to give you another chance at redemption from conviction by your own hand. PROVE IT!

I rest my case ....

You seem to be unclear completely clueless on what constitutes proof, reason, and logic. You have supplied NOTHING for consideration that even PRETENDS to be proof, or reason, or logic. I suggest you get an outdoor hobby.

COS: So..please give us some FACTS! The ONLY thing you have supplied is an accusation. The statement you made MAY be true, or it may be false..or partially true, or partially false. IT IS YOUR BURDEN to prove what you have said, so that any reasonable person will agree that you are NOT a slander and a liar. YOU PERSONALLY ... not just waving your hand at a second-hand referenced PDF file link, which although I only read 55 pages ... proved to be in my opinion, the rantings of a delusional madman. Please supply enough detailed overview and references that your seemingly OUTRAGEOUS claims may be INDEPENDENTLY checked by the average, reasonable person. Unless you do provide such proof. those same reasonable persons can dismiss you as being a fool, a slanderer, and a liar ... because you have ZERO credibility. Your move.

TTH: Again you have projected accusations of thinking process to me that are false .... and ... men are not ants.

... and therein is where the crime lies. We are thinking adults ... not children . The response is for children. .

TTH: Never in the history of the world has the majority EVER been right ... the most they can hope for is consensus. YOU CAN VOTE TO KEEP THE PEACE, AND HAVE "ORDER" .... BUT YOU CAN NOT VOTE ON TRUTH. ...and JWI's posts DID wear me down ... but to the best I could tell, every word was true. The fault was MINE .. not his, that I do not have the patience anymore to be a scholar. To more or less quote Alex Guiness playing Dr. Zhivago's policeman brother as he was in the snow watching Dr. Zhivago tear apart someone's fence for firewood "My brother is a much better man than I am, but that does not bother me ... I have killed much better men than I am, with a small pistol.". If you do not get the philosophy behind that statement .. it means some things are not important ... and some things ARE. And as far as kids squabbling in the car back seat with siblings and whining 'are we there yet? ... we are adults with legitimate concerns ...legitimate real world problems .... Hurricane Harvey immediately comes to mind ... and we are told if we do not shut up, Big "Brother" Dad is going to stop the car and throw us outside ... and anyone else with legitimate concerns and complaints that dares disagree with his authority will also have the same fate. That is an excellent way to keep order, but it is by extortion ... when the siblings recognize there is NO process for the redress of legitimate grievances that exists ... none whatsoever. Big "Brother" Dad, as always, knows what is best ... to maintain his position. So ... one adult is treated like a child, and expelled from the car, the other adult siblings are also treated like children, with nothing of value to say ... and are threatened to be ALSO expelled if we do say it, and some are for that reason! ..... and the grievances go unanswered. And the roadside becomes littered with the bodies of legitimate complainers. Dad does stop to paint with a broad brush in white, on both sides of the car "Celestial Chariot", as he grew up in the 50's when men named their cars. And besides ... he can always get MORE children. He knows that so very well. In Russian State Orphanages they bind babies in cloth so they cannot move their arms, and when they cry they are ignored. After awhile... they stop crying, because no one ever comes to show them tenderness and love .... and their "Big Brother" sees this as a good thing, because when they grow up, they will make excellent, totally obedient citizens and soldiers. It will never occur to them that they are anything else but machines to serve the State. Sound Familiar? Here is the quote: " I told myself it was beneath my dignity to arrest a man for pilfering firewood. But nothing ordered by the Party is beneath the dignity of any man. And the Party was right: one man desperate for a bit of fuel is pathetic; five million people desperate for fuel will destroy a city. That was the first time I ever saw my brother. But I knew him. And I knew I would disobey the Party. Perhaps it was the tie of blood between us, but I doubt it; we were only half-tied anyway, and brothers will betray a brother. Indeed, as a policeman I would say get hold of a man's brother and you're half-way home. Nor was it admiration for a better man than me. I did admire him; but I didn't think he was a better man. Besides, I've executed better men than me with a small pistol. " But nothing ordered by the Party is beneath the dignity of any man. But nothing ordered by the Party is beneath the dignity of any man. But nothing ordered by the Party is beneath the dignity of any man. But nothing ordered by the Party is beneath the dignity of any man. * ... and therein is where the crime lies. .

Is there a contradiction with regard to freedom to change one's religion? YESInstitutional disfellowshipping as it is done todayis taking families as hostages ... and threatening EVERYBODY( actually, only Jehovah's Witnesses ) with the same tyranny.That is why, as an institution, we got thrown out of Russia.THEY have lived through that before, under Soviet rule.

Every once in awhile ... even a blind pig finds an acorn.

In order NOT to be labeled a liar and a slanderer, Alessandro Corona ... and justifiably so ... you are going to have to PROVE EVERY ASPECT of those statements you just made. YOU PERSONALLY ... not just waving your hand at a PDF file link. I assume you did not just pull them out of your imagination. Please supply enough detailed overview and references that your seemingly OUTRAGEOUS claims may be INDEPENDENTLY checked by the average, reasonable person. If you do not ... and it WILL take some work .... your credibility is ZERO. ...by the way, I did read about 55 pages of that PDF, and concluded that it is the rantings of a man quite mad.

I ask Jehovah to give me patience .... because if he gives me strength ... heads are gonna roll!

J.R. Ewing I thought you were doing fine ... just fine ... until the last three sentences. They do not seem to be related to what you stated before them. Could you be more clear?

I find it amusing and sad at the same time that through the Watchtower, we had to be counseled that we could no longer KILL OUR APOSTATE RELATIVES! ( ... probably advice from the Society's Lawyers and Accountants...) .

We know. Satan said some things that were also true. But wasn't it Billy Graham or one of those preachers from a bye-gone generation who said: "We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake. . . . A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God."  Actually, it was Charles Taze Russell ....in the very FIRST issue of the Watchtower. July 1, 1879 in the article "What is Truth?" Here is the full text of the article .... "WHAT IS TRUTH?" This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God. Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact than the Christian. How often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth presented by their opponents. This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. They feel at perfect liberty to dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not the correct principle. Many infidels are honest— as anxious to speak and believe the truth as are Christians— and if in converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, we not only fail to convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of reaching them; for our failure to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them contempt for the one who is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not see how it can be reconciled to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter R9 : page 3 what it contradicts, and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others upon "The Spirit of truth, which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised. Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it. Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been no more. Gather ever, seek for more. Weave them together as a garland —"Bind them on thee as a bride doeth." "Bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: so shalt thou find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man." Prov. 3:3. C. T. R. I believe that covers it ALL. Oh ... and JW Insider ... thanks for the "setup".  .........