Ann O'Maly

10 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

You keep harping some point about 2 John 7, which I have demonstrated, is not an exclusive verse for Docetism as by that list I showed you

Huh?

It was demonstrated to you in great detail (as you had only provided names but no references) that the list showed your assertion to be false. 

10 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

But the point still remains, not about 2 John 7, but about 2 John 9~11, which I have also shown you from the commentaries is not exclusive to 2 John 7

But 2 John 9-11 follows on from 2 John 7's warning about Docetic heresy, doesn't it?

10 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

As to your "hints" I disagree with this particular doctrine:

[AB quotes Watchtowers applying 2 John 9-11 to anybody who leaves or is expelled from the congregation.]

Um ... so why are you defending it?

10 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

And I can keep posting more WT articles, as well.

Why?

10 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

The timing is not important much more than the observance

I would agree, but the Org likes to pride itself on getting the date and time 'just right.' If it's not important to have The Most Important Day of the Year on the right day, then why not use western Christianity's dating system?

10 hours ago, JWTheologian said:

Just like the erred view you have with Saturnalia in other posts.

'Erred view'? Lol, I think your memory might be tricking you. You rehashed Hislopian misconceptions, tried to pass off fiction and fable as historical fact, and copy-pasted any old bits of nonsense off the internet in a vain attempt to add weight to sensationalist, unverified claims about ancient Christmas practice.  

To aid your recall (and for anyone else who might be interested), here's a link to the thread:

http://www.jw-archive.org/post/135927951593/how-was-christmas-passed-down-to-us-in

Why does my uploaded and saved cover photo always disappear?

2 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

We can keep this up, but it leads all to the same thing: You don't agree with JW doctrine.

I agree with their comment here:

*** w06 12/1 pp. 5-6 The Antichrist Exposed ***

"Ideas of a purely symbolic resurrection were later developed by a group called Gnostics. Believing that knowledge (gnoʹsis in Greek) could be derived in a mystical way, Gnostics combined brother Christianity with Greek philosophy and Oriental mysticism. For instance, they held that all physical matter is evil, and for that reason, Jesus did not come in the flesh but only seemed to have a human body—a belief called Docetism. As we have seen, this is precisely what the apostle John had warned against.—1 John 4:2, 3; 2 John 7."
 

Perhaps you don't, AB? 

AnonymousBrother, I asked you, "Which scholars disagree that John was targeting the Docetic heresies?"

You answered with a list of names. Only one of those names expressed a disagreement that John was targeting Docetic heresies. Your new post doesn't add to the tally.

2 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

[Re Alford's silence on Docetism] Exactly.

Huh?

1 hour ago, AnonymousBrother said:

[Ann re Brooke] This application is still pretty specific and again is not meant to be a catch-all for any infraction of an ecclesiastical authority's policies and teaching.

[AB]  I guess you care to ignore all the preceding and succeeding pages?

Again, not clearly referenced. The second Brooke quote ("We have seen ...") comes from p. xlv. I had already taken the preceding and succeeding pages into account before I summarized Brooke's argument. Both your reproduced excerpts, as is plain from the the references to 'ch.v' and 'earlier chapters' are talking about 'the Epistle,' namely, 1 John. We, however, are focusing on 2 John. Brooke supports more my argument than yours.

1 hour ago, AnonymousBrother said:

[Ann] Docetism was a form of Gnosticism.

[AB] So were many other things: Conclusion Docetism not "particular" target.

So I ask again, other than the gnostic Docetics, which other groups taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh but was an apparition?

2 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

[Re Hole's and Kelley's silence on Docetism] Again, my point. Docetism was a major issue, yet does not get mentioned: Colcusion: Docetism not "particular" target.

How in your head do you make a non-mention a 'disagreement'? Talk about 'knight-jump' reasoning!

2 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

Yet, his comments:

[..]

Do not seem to support your "particularly" notion.

He already supported them in his introductory comments to 2 John, as I already pointed out. You think he changed his mind between pages?

2 hours ago, AnonymousBrother said:

[Re MacKnight and Coffman] But, again, not "particularly" Docetism, as you claim.

Other than the gnostic Docetics, which other groups taught that Jesus did not come in the flesh but was an apparition?

Anyway, the tally of 'disagreeing scholars' from your list still comes to ...

One.

From https://www.jw.org/en/news/releases/by-region/world/jehovahs-witnesses-receive-telly-awards/:

 “The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video,” said Linda Day, executive director of the Telly Awards. “The Witnesses’ accomplishment in the jw.org Newsroom illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production.”

Seen this quote before?

“The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video,” said Linda Day, executive director of the Telly Awards. “JIST Career Solution’s accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production.”  - http://jist.emcp.com/telly-awards

“The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video,” said Linda Day, Executive Director of the Telly Awards. “Impact Communications’ accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great video production.” - http://impactcommunications.com/news_item/impact-receives-eight-telly-awards/

“The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video,” said Linda Day, Executive Director of the Telly Awards. “Red Circle’s accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production.” - http://redcircleagency.com/red-circle-wins-11-telly-awards/

“The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video. Fig Media’s accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production.” — Linda Day, Executive Director of the Telly Awards

- http://www.figmediainc.com/blog//fig-media-selected-as-winners-in-the-36th-annual-telly-awards

“The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video,” said Linda Day, Executive Director of the Telly Awards.  “Ground Floor Video’s accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production." - http://www.groundfloorvideo.com/news/article/the-telly-awards-has-named-ground-floor-video-as-a-bronze-winner-in-the-36ton.”

The Telly Awards has a mission to honor the very best in film and video, said Linda Day, Executive Director of the Telly Awards. Quest Groups accomplishment illustrates their creativity, skill, and dedication to their craft and serves as a testament to great film and video production. - http://wbecsouth.org/quest-group-lands-win-at-annual-telly-awards/

So it's one of those stock quotes where you [insert company name here]. Totally fake. 

Thanks for the other link, Giannis. I'll look at that later.

And thanks for the offer of help if I ever need it. 

13 minutes ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

(but I do can vote with the old account that's why I keep it... they didn't take that from me yet).

But not upvote your own posts! Lol!

Also:

*** ka chap. 16 p. 296 par. 7 Completion of the Foretold “Sign” Nears ***

"Counted from the year of Jesus’ prophecy on the subject, the Jewish system of things had thirty-seven years yet to go, less than a generation with a life-span of forty years." 
 

*** it-1 p. 540 Wilderness Wanderings of Israel ***

"This brought Jehovah’s swift judgment: Forty years would pass before the nation would enter the Promised Land. By then, the faithless members of that generation would have died off."

So the questions are, 

• Could there be a flaw in the Org's eschatology?
• If so, what is it?
• Could there be more than one flaw?

This would be a fruitful research project for you, Sarah. 

On 3/10/2016 at 10:07 PM, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

Also,while the narrative in the synoptics situates the Last Supper during Passover, the fact 
remains that the only foods we are told the disciples ate are bread and wine the basic elements of any formal Jewish meal. If this was a Passover meal, where is the Passover lamb? Where are the bitter herbs? Where are the four cups of wine?

Ah, I see you've read this article too:

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/people-cultures-in-the-bible/jesus-historical-jesus/was-jesus-last-supper-a-seder/

It's definitely worth reading. I saved it to my computer a couple of years ago.

There's another factor to this debate: Jesus was the Passover Lamb (1 Cor. 5:7). Wouldn't it undermine the symbolism if Jesus was sacrificed after Passover?

Also consider:

John 18:28 - "Then they led Jesus from Caʹia·phas to the governor’s residence. It was now early in the morning. But they themselves did not enter into the governor’s residence, so that they would not get defiled but could eat the Passover."

But surely they would have already eaten Passover at the same time Jesus and his disciples did? 
 

12 hours ago, Giannis Diamantis said:

I think the New World Translation 2013 page 1734 resolves the matter : "We simply don't know how God’s ancient servants pronounce this name".

Although it's a lot easier for us English-speaking folks not to have to transliterate your name from Greek when addressing you, it is a bit of a cheat to have Γιαννης upvote/like posts by Giannis. 

And the point, JWTheologian, of your contribution to this topic about the Memorial with stuff about Saturnalia is ... ?

2 minutes ago, JW Insider said:

I see it now. They are listing the first full day, not starting from the evening before which would make our date on the equivalent of the start of Nisan 13. Probably the difference is because of the leap day adjustment so that Passover doesn't start on one of the three "forbidden" days of the week.

No, the first full Passover day is April 11.

There must be something really basic I'm overlooking ...

Yes, the Memorial is on April 11, 2017, but Passover is listed by multiple sources as beginning sunset April 10, which I can't find a reason for if the new crescent is first visible in Jerusalem on March 29.

Giannis has piqued my curiosity about the 2017 Passover. Why April 10? By my reckoning, that would be Nisan 13. Hmm.

17 hours ago, Γιαννης Διαμαντιδης said:

I want to say that if we don't want to accept the added month that Jewish people use, that will put us always one or more months behind Jewish calendar, and it is impossible for the two celebrations ever to coincide. I mean there is a practical reason for putting an extra month and we must accept that ! Or you say that Jewish people are not clever enough for doing this?

Don't forget that the Jews are counting lunar months (29 or 30 days long each month). JWs are counting Gregorian calendar months (28/29 or 30 or 31 days long) and just pay attention to the lunar cycle for one month only - for calculating their equivalent of Nisan 14. The timing of the (approximate) full moon after the spring equinox serves to offset any major drift between the JW method and the Jewish one - about a month's difference at worst. 

On 3/5/2016 at 11:02 PM, Jay Witness said:

We should make the Memorial for baptized, active, approved members of JW.org in secret locations only. Less stress for me.

This interesting comment indicates that the person who is doing the shunning also feels uncomfortable doing it. Many of us know how psychologically damaging it is for the 'shunnee,' but I think we forget how damaging it also is for the 'shunner.'

"If you think giving someone the cold shoulder inflicts pain only on them, beware. A new study shows that individuals who deliberately shun another person are equally distressed by the experience." - https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/03/130305080452.htm

On 3/5/2016 at 11:02 PM, Jay Witness said:

Jesus did not die for thier sins since they unrepentant and subsequently disfellowshipped.

This presupposes that the elders who chose to disfellowship saw into the sinner's heart perfectly and made a perfect decision. It also presupposes that a disfellowshipped person can never be redeemed. Somehow I don't think you really believe that. 

Jesus taught: “All things, therefore, that you want men to do to you, you also must do to them." (Matthew 7:12).

Laying aside for a moment the ethics of cutting off a child from its religious, social and wider family networks in the first place, this is where empathy comes into play. If we were that child (or if we were the parents) and we attended a meeting where, perhaps, everyone knew of our embarrassing family 'scandal,' would we want to be ignored (or our child to be ignored) and not have common courtesies or social graces extended to us?

I think we we have our answer.

It's a good point that all Memorial dates are calculated in advance and are not based on actual observation ... which makes it more puzzling that the Org's choice of time for theoretical new crescent visibility is sometimes at variance with that of many (dare I say, 'most'?) other astronomical programs' calculations. And if anyone should know when the new lunar month ought to begin, it should be the Jews, right?

Also, picking full moon is no guarantee of hitting on the 14th day of the lunar month. Because of the nature of the Moon's orbit, full moon can occur any time from the 13th to 16th day. 

Jared Kushner, CEO of Kushner Companies, is Donald Trump's son-in-law.

Five years ago, the Scientologists 'won' a Telly Award! 

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/scientology-wins-a-major-award-mind-power-vindicated-updated-6682199

On 3/7/2016 at 9:19 PM, Eoin Joyce said:

What's the detail on that one?

*** w13 12/15 p. 23 ‘Do This in Remembrance of Me’ ***

MEMORIAL 2014

  "The moon circles our earth each month. In the course of each cycle, there is a moment when the moon lines up between the earth and the sun. This astronomical configuration is termed “new moon.” At that point, the moon is not visible from the earth nor will it be until 18 to 30 hours later.

  "During 2014, the new moon nearest the vernal (spring) equinox will be on March 30, at 8:45 p.m. (20:45), Jerusalem time. The following sunset in Jerusalem (March 31) will come about 21 hours later. It is doubtful that the first sliver of the moon will be visible then. More likely, the first sunset when the initial crescent of the moon can be seen in Jerusalem will be on April 1. By the method the ancient Jews used, that will be the day when the first month (Nisan 1) will start, at sunset.
 

"Hence, congregations of Jehovah’s Witnesses around the earth have been informed that Nisan 14 will begin at sunset on Monday, April 14, 2014. That will be about the time of the full moon.—For more details on calculating the date, see The Watchtower of June 15, 1977, pages 383-384."
 

Part in blue: 

Correct date - new moon was on March 30.

Wrong time - new moon was at 21:45 Jerusalem time. The researcher hadn't factored in Daylight Saving Time that came in on March 28 for Israel.

Part in yellow:

Miscalculation of crescent visibility. Three astronomical programs calculated that the new crescent would be visible with the naked eye from Jerusalem on March 31. Granted, the crescent would be toward the limits of visibility criteria, but still would be theoretically possible to see according to,

• the Planetary, Lunar and Stellar Visibility program (free download online)
• http://astro.ukho.gov.uk/moonwatch/index.html
• http://torahcalendar.com/MOON.asp?JDN=2457458&TDAY=1&MNFLG=0

Screenshots can be provided if you are that interested.

The Moon's crescent was indeed sighted in the vicinity of Jerusalem on March 31 as reported by this website.

Therefore, sunset March 31 was Nisan 1, and sunset April 13 (not 14) was Nisan 14. So JWs celebrated the 2014 Memorial on Nisan 15.

15 hours ago, Carmen Erwin said:

i was in field service and had a householder ask me why we were celebrating the death of Jesus on March 23rd instead of April 23rd because the Hebrew calander had 13 months this year and why we go by the Grecian calandra instead of the Hebrew I did not have an answer. except to say To myself  I'm sure the GB has done their homework. But definetly makes me want to do some homework of my own so I could have a reply if it comes up again. I looked at this calendar but still don't quite get it. Can anyone help. 

There's another thread here too. It may give you some pointers:

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

Seems the practice (since the 4th Century) of adding an extra month, Adar1, every so often to realign the Jewish lunar calendar with the solar calendar

For as long as the Jews have used a lunar-based calendar (many centuries before the 4th century!), they will have had to re-calibrate it with the solar year every two to three years by adding an extra month.

6 hours ago, Eoin Joyce said:

There are other factors effecting the date. The timing of Nisan 1 by the sight of the new moon in Jerusalem rather than the astronomical calculation can mean a difference of 18-30 hours, placing our reckoning of Nisan 14 up to 2 days later.

Yes, the Org. goes by the sighting of the new moon in Jerusalem to establish the month (in theory, anyway). But that's the same practice as the Jews. Unfortunately, sometimes the Org. calculates wrongly and JWs are a day out (case in point, the 2014 Memorial).

You are absolutely correct about the Jews celebrating Passover on Nisan 15 whereas JWs commemorate the Lord's Supper and subsequent 'passover' sacrifice on their equivalent of Nisan 14.

Also the Org. never takes into account lunisolar leap years but relies solely on the new moon nearest the spring equinox as the marker upon which to begin Nisan.

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

I have seen a list that included articles that were presented to the UN/DPI as proof that the WTS was keeping it's agreement by publishing at least one positive article per year.

Me too. I was going to mention it in my post but, like you, I didn't keep a copy, my memory was too vague on it, and the list has gone into cyber-oblivion.

Yes, signing up was a mistake in view of the Org's true opinion of the UN. Despite writing more positively about the UN's work, which was refreshing to see on the one hand, it also meant that the Org. was being two-faced. In addition, it made it appear like the 'disgusting thing' was having a say in what kind of 'spiritual food' was to be produced. I don't know why nobody at the top picked up on the inconsistency.