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JW Insider

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  1. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Juan Rivera in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Whoops!
    Maybe what I meant to remember was that he was never "disfellowshipped" which means that technically he is not "officially" an "apo-state." I see that his experience says nothing of being DF'd, but then again, I've seen people DF'd for less.
    Everything he says about his discussions with Albert Schroeder and John Albu "rings true," perfectly. (John Albu was a brother in NYC, but not a Bethelite) I was put in contact with Albu for access to some of his books and his expertise for research projects.
    Alan says:
    I have believed the same thing, but never knew for sure. I think the general outline of that 1981 book was to be prepared from a couple of older Watchtowers with updates meant to specifically answer new questions raised about Ptolemy's canon and several other sources that Carl Olof Jonsson had written about. I remember that Bert Schroeder, Gene Smalley and others were angry about COJ's manuscript but wouldn't attempt to answer it. It got passed around like a hot potato around the Writing Department for years. Finally, Fred Rusk (the brother who gave my wedding talk) got it as an assignment to produce a Watchtower article in 1980. Rusk knew that the best researchers in-house at the time were Napolitano&Lengtat but he didn't like them because they had been friends with Ray Franz and had helped work on the Aid Book. He let it sit in his office for several months. I had a very strong feeling that it would end up being turned into an assignment for John Albu. John had been open-minded about discussing anything doctrinal, even things controversial up through 1981. But he seemed to close himself off completely in 1981 and for the rest of his life (until 2004), as far as I could tell.
  2. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from James Thomas Rook Jr. in The Watchtower & The Cigarette Company   
    (Micah 4:13) 13 Get up and thresh, O daughter of Zion; For I will change your horns into iron, And I will change your hooves into copper, And you will pulverize many peoples. You will devote their dishonest profit to Jehovah, And their resources to the true Lord of the whole earth.”
    Any questions?
  3. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    I'm sure Ann knows this, but I just saw the question. It was done in two parts: partly in 1943, and finished in 1944. The best research I've seen on this topic comes from a non-JW who opposes the JWs, but he was never baptized. (AlanF) So no one should technically call him an apo-state. At any rate his research is all true. I've looked up all his resources.
    http://corior.blogspot.com/2006/02/evolution-of-606-to-607-bce-in.html
     
  4. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Absolutely.
    ZWT 1892, Feb. 15, R1372:
    The seventy years which followed the overthrow here depicted are frequently referred to as the seventy years captivity, but the Scriptures designate them the seventy years desolation of the land--a desolation which had been predicted by the prophet `Jeremiah (25:11`), saying, "And this whole land shall be a desolation, and this nation shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years." The completeness of the desolation is shown in `verses 8 and 9` of this lesson and also in `2 Chron. 36:17-21`; and although the king of Babylon allowed certain of the poor of the land to remain, and gave them vineyards and fields, yet it was the Lord's purpose that the land of Israel should be desolate seventy years, and so it was. In the same year Gedaliah, whom the king of Babylon had made governor and under whom many of the Jewish fugitives were disposed to return from neighboring countries, was assassinated, and the entire population speedily removed into Egypt for fear of the wrath of the king of Babylon.--`2 Kings 25:21-26`; `Jer. 41:1-3`; `43:5,6`.
     
    ZWT 1896, May 15, R1980:
    PERIOD OF THE "70 YEARS DESOLATION OF THE LAND."
    This period began after Zedekiah's kingdom was overturned when the land was left desolate (`Jer. 40:6-13`; `40:10-18`; `43:5-7`)
    Jer. 40 and 43 are about Gedaliah's assassination and the Jews' flight.
    There is such a thing as 'prophetic hyperbole.' E.g. 
    Zephaniah 1:2, 3 - “I will completely sweep away everything from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.  3 “I will sweep away man and beast. I will sweep away the birds of the heavens and the fish of the sea, And the stumbling blocks along with the wicked ones; And I will remove mankind from the surface of the ground,” declares Jehovah.
    This was just about punishing Judah.
    There is some archaeological evidence that areas of Judah remained inhabited throughout the Babylonian hegemony. Desolation/devastation doesn't necessarily mean complete depopulation. E.g.
    Nehemiah 2:3 - Then I said to the king: “Long live the king! Why should I not look gloomy when the city, the place where my forefathers are buried, lies in ruins, and its gates have been consumed by fire?” 
    Nehemiah 2:17 - Finally I said to them: “You can see what a terrible situation we are in, how Jerusalem lies in ruins and its gates have been burned with fire. Come, let us rebuild the walls of Jerusalem, so that this disgrace will not continue.” 
    The Jews had been repatriated decades before, yet Jerusalem was still considered to be a devastated, ruined place.
     
     

     
     
  5. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Ann O'Maly in God's Kingdom Rules   
    The shift really began in the 1943 book, The Truth Shall Make You Free. P. 239:
    "In Nebuchadnezzar's time the year began counting from the fall of the year, or about October 1, our time. Since he destroyed Jerusalem in the summer of 606 B .C., that year had its beginning in the fall of 607 B .C. and its ending in the fall of 606 B .C."
      
  6. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Evacuated in JW Brothers in Korea cover over a bus with a Crisis of Conscience banner   
    Looks more like a Crisis of Parking!! 
  7. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Allen, I understand the necessity to point out the flaws and misapplication of people that only focus on one small part of something, rather than the entire picture to hide their own fallacies. By those standards. The “entire” world is flawed. Pity, they don’t seem to see their own flaws, when they misinterpret someone else's thought.

  8. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in God's Kingdom Rules   
    On the other hand, the "first edition" of "Faith on the March" says that this happened on Sunday, October 4th:
    We realized that 1914 was upon and now we must do something about it. On the 23rd of August, 1914, Brother Russell made a trip out in the northwest, down the Pacific coast and over into the Southern States, and wound up at Saratoga Springs, New York, where we held a convention September 30 through October 4, 1914. That was an interesting time because we thought we were going to heaven that first week in October--- and were looking forward to that. That was the idea.
    ...
    On Saturday about 500 of us took the Hudson River daylight boat, a very lovely ride from Albany to New York. Then Sunday morning we were to open up in the Tabernacle and conclude our convention. Quite a number of the conventioners stayed at Bethel. Sunday morning, October 4th, the dining room was crowded. Brother Russell's habit when he came down in the morning was to hesitate at the entrance of the dining room a moment and say, "Good morning, everyone". We would all say, "Good morning". But this morning after greeting us as to the time of day he said, "The Gentile Times have ended, their kings have had their day." Then, of course, we all applauded. We were all very excited and I wouldn't have been surprised if at that moment we all just started up, that being the signal to go up, but it wasn't.
    So the same recorder of these events first wrote the circumstances to show why it was Sunday, October 4th when the announcement was made.
  9. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from OtherSheep in God's Kingdom Rules   
    Good post. Good research.
    The Watchtower here says it was on October 1st, and I think A. H. Macmillan was the first to say it was on October 2nd.
    I have read Macmillan's "Faith on the March" and I'm now reading the typewritten first draft of Macmillan's "Faith on the March." (His edits remind me of experiences watching the editing process at Bethel.) For years, I have noticed that there are a couple of things that Macmillan either just "made up" or else he had a very poor memory, or was choosing between two or more versions of a story. But when he chose to report on specific things that Russell said or did, there is strong evidence that it's Macmillan's own fault when he reported it incorrectly. (For example, when a bunch of Watchtower readers were reported to have waited on a bridge in Pittsburgh in their white robes expecting to be raptured, he quotes Russell to exonerate him from any personal embarrassment in that incident. But he ends up claiming Russell said something that he wouldn't likely have said unless Russell also had a bad memory. The newspaper account that Macmillan claims to base the story on, actually doesn't exist, and it now appears Macmillan confused it with a report from a Philadelphia newspaper about an incident a few hundred miles away from Pittsburgh.)
    On the other hand, Rutherford had also been known to make "convenient" changes in a story, which he did several times in his booklet from 1915: "Great Battle in the Ecclesiastical Heavens." As a lawyer he must have had some of the documentation in front of him, but he makes several claims in that booklet that differ from the court records, often just slightly and often in a technically ambiguous manner, and often with an obvious purpose of simplification or to avoid a distraction that might create suspicion. (The entire booklet was written for the purpose of exonerating Russell from about a dozen of the major claims made against him and/or his business practices.)
    In think that in this particular case, I would choose to believe that it did happen, and that Macmillan is correct, rather than Rutherford. The reason is that Rutherford may have only wanted to give emphasis to the fact that the Gentile Times ended on October 1st, and including the fact that Russell waited until October 2nd would be a distraction that would have required a small explanation. So the slight change was just to avoid the distraction. Technically, Rutherford may have thought that "first of October" could ambiguously refer to the earliest part of October instead of a specific date. It's also possible that Rutherford incorrectly remembered it being on October 1st.
    But the other reason to accept Macmillan's date is because it looks like he is working from a diary. We also know from another source document that Macmillan had worked out the travel dates for all his speeches and convention travel in 1914. We also have a letter from Macmillan explaining why he can't make a certain travel arrangement based on the dates and (un)available funds. As a Bethel administrator, he would likely have kept good documentation. Also, we know it was common for many Bible Students to use books like "Daily Heavenly Manna" as a diary. What he writes in Faith on the March appears to say that many of the Bethelites didn't even get home until late in the day or evening on October 1st.  500 persons (including Bethelites and "conventioners" who would be staying at Bethel at least until Sunday October 4th) were traveling on October 1st from Saratoga Springs to Brooklyn.including a Hudson Steamer from Albany. This is several hours of travel. Note from Macmillan's book:
    Ever since 1879 The Watch Tower had been calling attention to the foretold end of the present systems as due to begin in 1914. But while we were all looking forward to 1914 and the end of wickedness and sorrow in the earth, many of us were thinking more of our own personal, individual "change" than anything else. On August 23, 1914, as I well recall, Pastor Russell started on a trip to the Northwest, down the Pacific coast and over into the Southern states, and then ending at Saratoga Springs, New York, where we held a convention September 27-30. That was a highly interesting time because a few of us seriously thought we were going to heaven during the first week of that October. At that Saratoga Springs convention quite a number were in attendance. Wednesday (September 30) I was invited to talk on the subject, "The End of All Things Is at Hand; Therefore Let Us Be Sober, Watchful and Pray." Well, as one would say, that was down my road. I believed it myself sincerely — that the church was "going home" in October. During that discourse I made this unfortunate remark: "This is probably the last public address I shall ever deliver because we shall be going home soon." Next morning (October I ) about five hundred of us began the return trip to Brooklyn, including a lovely ride on the Hudson River Day Line steamer from Albany to New York. Sunday morning we were to open services in Brooklyn, this to conclude our convention. Quite a number of the conventioners stayed at Bethel, the home of the headquarters staff members. Friday morning (October 2) we all were seated at the breakfast table when Russell came down. As he entered the room he hesitated a moment as was his custom and said cheerily, "Good morning all." But this morning, instead of proceeding to his seat as usual, he briskly clapped his hands and happily announced: "The Gentile times have ended; their kings have had their day." We all applauded.
    We were highly excited and I would not have been surprised if at that moment we had just started up, that becoming the signal to begin ascending heavenward — but of course there was nothing like that, really.
    [My great grand-father was with Russell on the Northwest and Pacific portion of Russell's convention tour starting August 23, 1914. He was one of speakers out of Chicago who usually joined Russell only on the "Western Tour" as they called it ]
  10. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Michael the Archangel   
    That's a little like claiming that the verb "to say" isn't in the following sentence: "Whenever he says something, others begin saying the same thing that he said."
    In Greek, there are many more forms of verb tense conjugations than there are in English. So verbs are simply referenced by the first form: first person singular.
    Therefore, for reference purposes, proskunesatosan is proskuneo. 
     
  11. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Evacuated in Who Raised Jesus   
    This is much more interesting when you quote the verses in total:
    (Acts 10:40) God raised this one up on the third day and allowed him to become manifest,
    Notice that although we believe the "Father" corresponds to the only true God, this verse does not mention the Father raising his Son. It says that GOD raised up Jesus. Although some would say that Jesus was also God, that wouldn't explain why Jesus needed God's permission, in effect, to be allowed to become visible after his resurrection. Some Trinitarians claim that the only reason that Jesus spoke of the Father as "his God" was to reflect his humanity while in the form of a man. Yet here we see that Jesus as a raised spirit creature needed to be allowed by God to manifest himself as a man.
    (John 2:19) Jesus replied to them: “Tear down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
    John makes clear that the entire life of Jesus was to do his Father's will, and therefore they were in complete unity of purpose. Jesus lived his life on earth for the purpose of accomplishing that will which included being raised from the dead and going back to heaven after that will was accomplished on earth. Jesus prayed to his God that the Father's will would be done, and his part in that meant that he was in effect raising it up through his participation in the will of his Father. If Jesus was alive to be able to raise himself then he didn't die, and the Father's will was not done. Jesus did not die for your sins, if Jesus did not truly die. If Jesus died, only God could raise him. If God died then he does not exist forever and was not immortal. 
    (Romans 8:11)  If, now, the spirit of him who raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, the one who raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you.
    Obviously, the verse says nothing about the spirit raising Jesus from the dead. (The KJV agrees with the NWT here.) It would not have been wrong to say that Jehovah used his holy spirit to raise Jesus, but in every case, it is Jehovah, God, the Father, who raises Jesus. If I said: "The money of the man who killed Jesse James should be in my wallet," this would not mean that money killed Jesse James. 
     
  12. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    This seems a little farfetched, if you believe your understanding has a better claim to salvation than Christ. You mention “Mother”. Many Christians maintain an earthly view of Mary. However, Mary served her purpose as a vessel, nothing else.

    Now, you seem to forget, or don’t wish to recognize is, no one comes to the Father, unless through me. All past covenants are now reliant on Christ Sacrifice. So, while you may wish to advertise frivolous websites? Only through the Glory of God and Christ will anyone gain everlasting life. That’s non-negotiable, including Witnesses, and or anyone claiming falsehoods through their own understanding, NOT scripture.

    The last time I looked, The Watchtower has made every attempt as Christ did to educate the spiritually infirm. What has Christendom done, besides boast that Jesus is God, and there is no Armageddon, but there is a literal heaven and hell. Bible thumpers usually stick with hellfire, but that’s why learning scripture goes a long way.

    Matthew 28:19 Context: THE GREAT COMMISSION

    Therefore, go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

    Where is Christendom about accepting a command Christ instructed.

    Matthew Henry Commentary

    He now solemnly commissioned the apostles and his ministers to go forth among all nations. The salvation they were to preach, is a common salvation; whoever will, let him come, and take the benefit; all are welcome to Christ Jesus.

    Mark 16:15

    And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.


     
    Matthew 13:52 Context: The Parable of the Net

    52Then He told them, “For this reason, every scribe who has been discipled in the kingdom of heaven is like a homeowner who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

    What would be the objective for Christendom? Which they have NOT done in the name of Christ.


     
    Luke 24:47 Context: Jesus Unveils the Scriptures

    and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

    Acts 1:2

    Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen.

    Acts 1:8

    But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    So, the process was to continue beyond the Apostles time.

    Where is Christendom with the simplest of task, that the Jehovah’s Witnesses have taken the lead on.

    Who has come to emulate our Lord and Savior really? Christendom, please! They only devote themselves for self-interest, not for the people of the world.

    Matthew 25:31-32 Context: The Sheep and the Goats

    When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, He will sit on His glorious throne. 32All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats

    2 Thessalonians 1:7-8 Context: Christ's Coming

    7and to grant relief to you who are oppressed, and to us as well, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8in blazing fire. He will inflict vengeance on those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

    This will include churches that acclaim apostasy. So Christendom has a long way to go before they can walk in Jesus footsteps.

    1 Peter 2:21 Context: Christ's Example of Suffering

    21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in His footsteps.

    So are Jehovah’s Witnesses taking the lead on those things mentioned in scripture? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  13. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Here's the thing. I’m not here to press upon you what I think scripture means. I’m basically here to convey to the people that come to this website, there are people that enjoy being deceptive by misleading people here, by showing WTS literature that doesn’t convey the sentiment of the WTS but their own convoluted opinion.

    The WTS bases all it’s teaching from the Holy Bible. That’s the constitution of the WTS. The WTS for Jehovah’s Witnesses changed not necessarily in 1931 when it was announced, but 1934 when their literature reflected the name change. So, anyone Baptized under that name was a real Witness and not a reformed Bible Student like Rutherford that was baptized in 1906 under the banner of Bible Students, and anyone joining the Witnesses between 1934 and 1942, when Knorr became the FIRST true leader of Jehovah’s Witnesses under that banner, were Reformed Bible Students. A description that was never entered but should have been, RBS.

    The idea that the Bible Students and the Jehovah’s Witnesses share the same ideology, is simply…distorting the FACTS.

    Now your biggest problem with the WTS is HATE. You definitely don't understand scripture, but press upon using scripture to misrepresent the intended use. That’s fine. The only one your hurting is you.

    Now you call yourself a Christian of good standing. FALSE! If you were in good standing, you would reflect in everything you write, and correct your views.

    You pretend to ignore the FACT that God left, a structured scheme for man to follow after the fall of man. You continue to suggest that Jehovah himself has failed because he used people like, Abraham, Moses, Daniel, David, etc. and anyone he deemed fit to relay his wishes. God used MEN to achieve those goals. JESUS used MEN to achieve those goals.

    So the perception is ludicrous no matter how you slice it. Not to mention, you would also have to cancel yourself for being part of the human race. (MEN) Therefore all the negativity you have for the WTS can also be APPLIED to YOU.

    Now you stated elsewhere not to inject personal thoughts, and yet…the opinions you have about the WTS are your personal opinion. So, do yourself a favor and not rely on apostasy sites for your information, or wannabe JW’s that pretend to be Witnesses when they are NOT. Ann O’maly, and JWinsider are a perfect example of putting trust on a false prophet. But then, anyone evangelizing for deception in the eyes of God is a FALSE PROPHET, Right! Anyone who deliberately misleads the flock for their own personal gain. Why was King Saul removed!!!

    Answer yourself that. The Governing Body if you really must know didn’t have its inception when it was first published that way. It began Before Rutherford. So WTS history, you definitely don't.

    Now, the outlandish look in leaders, would pretty much includes ALL religions, since they are all governed by someone. For Witnesses, we believe in scripture as our constitution.

    But try to justify ACTS 6:3 Context: The Choosing of the Seven

    3Therefore, brothers, select from among you seven men confirmed to be full of the Spirit and wisdom. We will appoint this responsibility to them.

    These are GODS WORDS and CHRIST INSTRUCTIONS, I dare you!!!!!!!!!!!, find fault with them both, for suggesting to find 7 reputable “MEN”, among “MEN”. Which is the makeup of the Governing Body right now.

    So, you can recite the entire bible. It won’t make any difference until you learn the TRUE meaning of scripture. Don’t let hypocrisy be ones undoing. Because in essence, your going against bible principle.

  14. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    That’s strictly your opinion. Now think of the same for yourself. Christ spoke of unity for a reason. The hypothetical evil slave then falls within your own convoluted opinion.
  15. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Unfortunately, we cannot pick and choice what we will obey out of scripture, Either your obedient to the covenant or you’re not.

    Mark 16:20 Context: The Ascension

    20And they went out and preached everywhere, and the Lord worked through them, confirming His word by the signs that accompanied it.

    Matthew Henry Commentary

    16:19,20 After the Lord had spoken he went up into heaven. Sitting is a posture of rest, he had finished his work; and a posture of rule, he took possession of his kingdom. He sat at the right hand of God, which denotes his sovereign dignity and universal power. Whatever God does concerning us, gives to us, or accepts from us, it is by his Son. Now he is glorified with the glory he had before the world. The apostles went forth, and preached everywhere, far and near. Though the doctrine they preached was spiritual and heavenly, and directly contrary to the spirit and temper of the world; though it met with much opposition, and was wholly destitute of all worldly supports and advantages; yet in a few years the sound went forth unto the ends of the earth. Christ's ministers do not now need to work miracles to prove their message; the Scriptures are proved to be of Divine origin, and this renders those without excuse who reject or neglect them. The effects of the gospel, when faithfully preached, and truly believed, in changing the tempers and characters of mankind, form a constant proof, a miraculous proof, that the gospel is the power of God unto salvation, of all who believe.

    We would all love to worship God away from conflict. However, Jesus paved the way for humanity to receive spiritual food. If we don’t understand scripture, or base our own understanding of scripture. How will one know, if one has erred? So far in this website, understanding scripture is flawed.

    Colossians 2:23 Context: Alive in Christ

    23Such restrictions indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-prescribed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body; but they are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

    Colossians 1:18 Context: The Supremacy of Christ

    18And He is the head of the body, the church; He is the beginning and firstborn from among the dead, so that in all things He may have preeminence.

  16. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    I didn't choose the label, the WT did. 1 Corinthians 6:9 Context: Members of Christ

    9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to nor perform homosexual acts,

    The WTS is an organization just like any other church. Be it Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical, etc. They all publish their own understanding. However, the WTS publishes its understanding directly from scripture.

    I didn't apply the conditions of these people, the WT did. Luke 23:43English Standard Version (ESV)43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

    I didn't say who would make it and who wouldn't, the WT did.  Revelation 2:7 English Standard Version (ESV)7 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’

    So your anticlerical question. The WTS didn’t God’s Word did. Learn scripture.

  17. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    Oh! I understand. I have NO difficulties. However, you need to continue to learn about scripture, and not play into your own desires, of thinking you comprehend facts.
  18. Downvote
    JW Insider reacted to JWTheologian in Is the WTS the organization Jehovah is using?   
    We view the anointed as fellow worshippers of Jehovah. We don't heighten their status just because in the WTS writing, they are seen with a greater responsibility. They, don’t think of themselves that way. However, since they hold a higher standard of excellence and morality? GOD does hold them to a different standard just as he did with the Apostles and Prophets(MEN). Your distortion implies, they cannot possibly hold that calling of being anointed by "GOD" not “MAN” to undertake those responsibilities.

    Remember, by your own words, you believe you have that undertaking and responsibility. The question is? Who appointed you, to say the Governing Body cannot be considered to be appointed by the Holy Spirit even by your biblical quotations, that’s exactly what they follow. The Constitution of the JW’s Doctrine.

    ARC: Quotation:

    42 Justice Donald Stewart: Q. Do you, as members of the Governing Body, regard

    43 yourselves as being appointed by Jehovah God or under the

    44 capacity or authority of Jehovah God?

    45 Geoffrey Jackson: A. What we view ourselves, as fellow workers with our

    46 brothers and sisters ‐ we have been given a responsibility

    47 to guard or to be guardians of doctrine. So just the same

    .14/08/2015 (155) 15936 G W JACKSON (Mr Stewart)

    Transcript produced by DTI1

    with elders, they are referred to as being appointed by

    2 holy spirit, as you probably are aware, we believe that

    3 means that when an elder is in harmony with what the Bible

    4 says is required of an elder, then he is appointed by the

    5 holy spirit. So the same is true with the Governing Body.


     
    The Governing Body follows the pattern set by “the apostles and elders in Jerusalem” in the first century, who made important decisions on behalf of the entire Christian congregation. (Acts 15:2) Like those faithful men, the members of the Governing Body are not the leaders of our organization. They look to the Bible for guidance, acknowledging that Jehovah God has appointed Jesus Christ as the Head of the congregation. —1 Corinthians 11:3; Ephesians 5:23.


     
    Once again You can recite anything you want to apply your distorted understanding. but until you learn scripture in a way NOT to interject your own personal opinion. Your personal views are contradictory and accepting of your own fallacy parameters. Perhaps you should reread what you wrote, and apply your ideology to yourself.

    I understanding your entire argument is predicated in an illusion of 7 men giving out their own doctrine. The Jim Jones style. Perhaps you subscribe to that ideology, but JW’s don’t. We have a responsibility to understand scripture individually to come to the same understanding as subscribed by Christ instruction. Jesus never advised anyone to read scripture to get different outcomes. That’s just nonsense.

    Just as the nonsensical view you want people to believe, that the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, think their better than their fellow believers. I don’t know when you started misleading people, but…I’m here to set the record straight. They as men are not greater, but they do have a greater responsibility to the flock. I’ve had dinner with some of them, and they’ve stayed in my Parents’ house long ago. They seemed to be normal human beings to me.

  19. Thanks
    JW Insider got a reaction from Srecko Sostar in Rare video footage of Judge Rutherford at Beth-Sarim San Diego CA.   
    The video was shown at Bethel to the entire family, and I don't think it would have been shown if those who made that decision to show it, thought that it definitely showed him in a drunken condition. However, there are at least two other pictures of Rutherford that show him in a condition that is almost the definition of what we would expect a drunk to look like.
    But Brother Rutherford evidently did [allegedly] suffer from alcoholism, and it was not always apparent when he was under the influence. Hayden Covington, the Society's attorney, has admitted this to others, and even to relatives of mine. Of course, Hayden Covington, was himself an admitted alcoholic, who was disfellowshipped for related behavior. So his claims might be biased. On the other hand, the elder who was my own table head at Bethel said the same about Rutherford, and much more. Another friend of mine from Bethel, Arthur Worsley, Brother Swingle's roommate before Lyman married Crystal, has admitted that he lied under oath to protect Rutherford out of fear of being kicked out of Bethel at the Olin Moyle trial.
    (The previous Society attorney before Covington was Olin Moyle, who felt it necessary to write a letter to Rutherford about abusive behavior, and even complained that Rutherford had been making arrangements to illegally bring in liquor from Canada during Prohibition. When Rutherford went public about Moyle in the pages of the Watchtower, where Rutherford railed against Moyle as an "evil slave," the case finally went to court, where Rutherford lost and had to pay Moyle $30,000 - reduced to $15,000 in an appeal in 1944. An anti-Moyle resolution was even adopted at the 1941 St. Louis assembly naming Olin Moyle as an "evil slave.")
    Don't know if the booklet from the 1930's is related to Rutherford's alleged alcoholism, but it is titled "Prohibition and the League of Nations - Born of God or the Devil, Which?" Rutherford had spoken out against liquor prohibition as "born from the Devil" as far back as 1924 or earlier. 
  20. Upvote
    JW Insider reacted to Arauna in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    I have not seen anyone mention the 'Master' copies of the Bible.  These are copies that were made by scholars who compared the "extant" manuscripts, vellums, papyri and codices of the bible and made footnotes regarding any variations or alterations in the various extant texts.  This is how we know that the Bible has come down to us accurately because the variations are few and the alterations are verified by comparing extant documents. The Greek scriptures of the New World Translation was originally done from the reputable Master copy of "Westcott and Hort."   Read more about the comparison of extant documents here: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002893#h=15:0-15:1056   
    Read more about the Paleography: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008047.   
    I must add: when one studies the internal logic of the core message of the bible and the fact that Israel was the first nation to serve a monotheistic god (while the rest of the world were polytheists) then one comes to the natural conclusion that this YHWH is a remarkable god and he has been working on a project which eventually will resolve all of mankind's problems.  He has allowed man to rule the earth to prove that we cannot rule successfully without his moral direction.  Adam and Eve chose independence from his right to choose "good and bad" for us.  Look, the nations at present more divided than ever and they will not cooperate together to get our problems resolved. The final outcome of what happens to this earth and the life on it, is closely tied up with the name God chose for himself: JHWH - I shall prove to be / he causes to become.   The new world translation 2013 has the name inserted in the new testament in a few places not indicated in ancient documents but in the talk the brothers made when they presented this new bible to us they gave the reasons why they did this.  Go and research this for yourselves.
  21. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from Ann O'Maly in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    There is a lot of readily available research on this topic already online. As I began to join in, I also realized that I might be repeating information that has already come up in other questions and topics on this forum.
    I'll start with the J docs that I arbitrarily assigned to Category #4. ,
    The J Docs initially referred to about 19 different Hebrew translations (from Greek to "modern" Hebrew) numbered J1, J2, J3, etc, up to J19. A few more have now been added to the 1985 Reference NWT, but these include even more modern non-Hebrew translations that use a form of "Jehovah" in the NT.
    From the standpoint of how the Greek Scriptures (NT) should be translated into English (or any other language) the "J Docs" are meaningless. I think that several of us have misinterpreted their importance. These have nothing to do with what the ancient Greek texts said or meant. They are not old texts from the viewpoint of the Scriptures. They are "modern" texts. (J2 is the oldest from about 100 years before Columbus and the next oldest J7 is from about 100 years after Columbus. The rest are mostly from the 1800s through the late 1900's).
    They are modern Hebrew translations of the New Testament. They were sometimes simply the work of biased Trinitarian missionaries who wanted to create a Christian ministry to Jewish speakers of Hebrew. They added the divine name in the places in the NT where they thought these verses should show a direct connection between the God/Lord of the OT and the God/Lord of the NT. They referred to God as YHWH even in cases where the NT was not quoting the OT. The problem is that the Trinitarian bias allowed these "translators" to pick several cases where even Jesus as Lord is directly connected to Jehovah as Lord.
    Note this information about J18.  The 1969 edition of the Kingdom Interlinear Translation says:
    Our old NWT Bibles (1950, 1951, 1963) used to include a statement about them altogether like this:
    All together, the appearances of the sacred Tetragrammaton in the 19 Hebrew versions to which we have had access total up to 307 distinct occurrences."
    But we didn't count all of the "distinct occurrences." There are over 100 additional distinct occurrences that we didn't count because we couldn't use them. Just a few examples will show why. This has already been started on other sites that I copy from below. They include HollyW's examples:
    1 Corinth. 12:3 in J14
    "...no one can say "Jesus is Lord (יהוה), except by the Holy Spirit."
    1 Thess. 4:16,17 in J7,8,13,14,24
    2 Timothy 1:18 in J7,8,13,14,16,17,18,22,23,24
    Hebrews 1:10 in J8 in which Jehovah addresses the Son using the Divine Name.
    1 Peter 2:3 in J13, J14
    1 Peter 3:15 in J7
    J20 (Concordance to the Greek Testament) cites יהוה at both 1 Peter 2:3 and 1 Peter 3:15.
    Revelation 16:5 in J7,8,13,14,16
    Romans 10:9 in J12-14, 16-18, 22
    Acts 26:14,15 in J17,J18
    "'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?' But I said, 'Who are you Lord?" And the Lord (haAdohn - Jehovah God) said, 'I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.'"
    [Several places in the J Docs even name the Holy Spirit as YHWH.]
     
  22. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from SonOfcaleb in Where did Jesus go in 1919?   
    Yes. Of course the Master was going somewhere and that was why he put a servant in charge. In the parable of the talents this is exactly what happens, too. In that parable he left in 33 CE and comes back in the future at the time of judgment (circa Armageddon). In the parable of the FDS (faithful slave), Jesus also goes somewhere in 33 CE and comes back for judgment (circa Armageddon). The idea, however, is that there was no need for a specific small group of anointed feeding a much larger group until the beginning of the last days, in the generation before the future judgment (circa Armageddon).
    So Jesus has already left in 33 CE, which I think you agree with, but appoints the Governing Body 1,885 years later  (33 + 1885 = 1919). The FDS has a 1,885-year gap between the time Jesus left to go away and the time that there was a need for a Governing Body to be the faithful slave who feeds "at the proper time." The idea, I think, is that the proper time didn't come up until 1919. 
    You might have a point. But the book is something like a commentary or slightly more explanatory version of what Jesus said, and tries to stay close to the Bible's own context and time frame. But all of the books that are aimed at a younger audience have very few references to 1914. The "Insight" book hardly mentions it. The NWT Bible appendixes have never mentioned it until the 2013 revision. Several of the books and Watchtowers since 1979 have not mentioned it. The new "What Does the Bible Really Teach" book moves the 1914 chart to the back of the book so that it is only in an appendix.
    At the same time, the 2014 book "God's Kingdom Rules" mentions the date 65 times. I agree that 2014 was a special year for mentioning 1914 and it has dropped off considerably in the Watchtowers of 2015 and 2016, so far.
    It's the definition that allows for 2114 or thereabouts. No one said that Fred Franz was the last person of the first group, only that he represented an example of it. If a 10-year old was anointed in 1914 that means he was born in 1904. If he lived to be 110 that would be an example of a person in the first group living until 2014. The definition allows for a very short overlap to fit the idea of "contemporaries" between the two groups. That would mean that a person born in 2004 could technically be anointed at age 10 in 2014 and live to be 110 years old, dying in 2114. I admit that this is not very practical, but the definition allows for it.
    I'm only trying to explain our current view. I realize that there appears to be many serious problems with the explanations and definitions.
    In any event, I don't think we should deny that Jehovah God has been able to use the historical situation that especially arose in the era of the world wars to draw more attention and questions about the purpose of life. The world went for many years without enough questions and very few forms of Christianity were questioned until the Protestant Reformation. But that Reformation continued with many of the same problems and unchristian practices. I believe that worsening world conditions should be a driver that promotes Christianity as a serious international brotherhood, where we see love for one another, support for one another, refusal to get involved in the divisive politics of war and nationalism, and a lot of other ideas where the Witnesses take a proper stand. I don't judge other Christian-oriented religions that attempt the same thing, but I appreciate the opportunities given to me to help those related to me both in the flesh and those related to me in the faith.
    Therefore, I'm not overly distracted by the chronological failures of our past. I think we can and should learn from them, but to me it has already lost its importance. I hope to be judged as a faithful Christian.
  23. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from HollyW in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    Technically, there is still no evidence that Christian scribes took Jehovah's personal name out of the text of the Christian Greek Scriptures, so it is probably not fair to judge these persons as "apo-state" since they are technically imaginary, so far.
    Also, we shouldn't say that the Hebrew Scriptures did not fare any better. They fared much better in this regard, if we are correct about what we imagine might have happened to the Greek texts. Those Hebrew texts contain the divine name nearly 7,000 times, and only in about 130 places does it appear that the divine name was replaced with "Lord." That means that between 98% and 99% of those occurrences fared perfectly well. But we believe that at least 237 out of 237 cases in the Greek texts were removed. To review, then, the score is:
    Greek texts: 0% Hebrew texts 98% There is no reason, then, to say that the Hebrew Scriptures did not fare any better than the Greek. That was a mistake. Also, the Masoretes left a recognizable pattern which helps us understand the reasoning behind the removal in a lot of these cases. I'm not sure why we would praise these same scribes for their faithfulness on the one hand and then judge them as apo-states in 2010.
    We should take this subject very seriously because if we have done the wrong thing here we have actually removed the word Lord 237 times from the text of the Greek Scriptures and replaced it with Jehovah. In most of these cases there is NOT a quote from the Hebrew Scriptures, and in a couple of cases where it IS a quote from the Hebrew Scriptures where the divine name was used, we do NOT use the divine name, but leave it as Lord.
     
  24. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JaniceM in Did Jewish Scribes Remove the Name of God from the Greek New Testament Manuscripts?   
    He was referring to the Isaiah Scroll, which is a very long scroll that is often quoted as being 99.9% faithful to the original. In fact, it also shows that literally hundreds of changes occurred over just 12 centuries, but that most of them appear accidental and they were of only minor importance to the overall text. What makes your question even more interesting is the fact that the name YHWH was never removed from those texts over that thousand year period. We only claim that the YHWH (or some Hebrew/Greek/hybrid form of it) was removed from Greek texts. Hebrew texts remained intact.
  25. Upvote
    JW Insider got a reaction from JAMMY in Day of one's Birth vs. Birthday celebrations   
    Thanks for your response.
    As individuals, we have a responsibility to wait on Jehovah, but not to wait on the organization, if they are at odds. Fortunately this should rarely be a problem. We are under a dual obligation to serve Jehovah but also to follow those who are taking the lead among us. We (many of us, anyway) should also be reaching out for the office of overseer so that we can also take the lead, too.
    I think you might not realize just how fast things will keep changing, especially now that the Internet is available and 20 million people have paid attention to us through participation, Bible study, meeting attendance, etc. And don't think that the Governing Body aren't having trouble keeping up with "Jehovah's Chariot" themselves. In a practical sense, changes happen faster when more questions come in, and more of those questions can't be answered by "correspondence," "service," "legal," and "public relations" departments. More doctrinal changes have happened in the last 10 years than have happened since 1929 in this Organization. I might be biased but I think the last decade of changes actually makes much more sense than the previous versions of the changed teachings. Jehovah's Chariot speeds because there are now millions more people who might ask a difficult question.
    Also, I think you know that Jehovah is the ultimate Judge, and those who were hurt and stumbled will be cared for with whatever extra it may take for Jehovah to satisfy the desire of every living thing. Jehovah has an eternity to make up for some injustices that will seem like a forgotten second of time, an eternity from now. When he wipes out every tear from our eyes, and pain, that would have to mean every kind of pain, even those that we inflicted upon each other in this life. Faith drives our motivation to do what is right toward each other, but as imperfect people, we sometimes do wrong. Jehovah looks at the motivation, and can undo the harm.
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