Where did Jesus go in 1919?

[HollyW]

“Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. Truly I say to you, He will appoint him over all his belongings.” (Matthew 24:45-47) 

For decades the WTS has used this scripture as the basis for their claim to being God's sole channel of communication to mankind, and have claimed to have fulfilled the part "Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so" in the years 1914 to 1919 when the Master (Jesus returned from heaven, inspected them, and found them faithful and discreet).

They taught that this began to occur in 33 C.E. when Jesus was leaving and going to heaven. Now that they've changed it to 1919, where did Jesus (the Master) go? According to the parable, he left his household and was due to return sometime in the future. According to the WTS, the master going away coincided with his ascension to heaven, that's why he appointed a faithful and discreet servant over his household. Now that the WTS has change this appointment to 1919, where was the Master going away to?


Holly

[JW Insider]

It's a good question. I would agree that the original reason for starting that the FDS was appointed in 33 CE was exactly as you have stated. Jesus in a very similar parable of the silver "talents" (Luke 19:11-27, and Matthew 25:14-30) said that he was going away in order to secure a kingdom. (And we explain this as having taken place when Jesus ascended to heaven in 33 CE.)

In that parable of the talents he said that, while the master as away, some would be faithful slaves with respect to their current appointment, and some would be unfaithful. When the master returned, the faithful ones would be appointed over something greater, but the unfaithful would lose everything. 

This is almost parallel to Matthew 24:45-51, where the faithful slave is given an assignment to handle while the master was away. When the master got back the faithful slave would be appointed over something greater. The unfaithful would lose everything. In fact, Luke 12:41-49 is Luke's version of the FDS parable in Matthew 24:45, and it is even a more exact parallel to the Luke 19 parable, where there are different levels of reward/punishment in each.

Both of them (FDS & talents) could be called "the parable of the faithful slave." But really they about both the "faithful and the unfaithful slave."

In both parables, per our latest explanation, Jesus goes away in 33 CE. In both cases the judging is now considered to be future, when he arrives for judgment day. Just because we used to teach that the judgment began in 1918 (then 1919) doesn't mean that Jesus had gone at some time other than 33 CE. Now we teach that the judgment is future, even though we once believed that this judgment that allowed the appointment over all the belongings was in 1918/9. That was true of both parables:

*** w87 8/1 p. 16 par. 5 Christ’s Active Leadership Today ***
The modern history of God’s people shows that this time of accounting came in 1918-19. The parable of the talents illustrates how the Master would settle accounts with the remnant of his anointed slaves.

The only "discrepancy" is that the Watchtower has changed the timing of the appointment in Matthew 24 (and therefore Luke 12) for the faithful slave to begin in 1919, but has not changed the appointment for the faithful slave in Luke 19. The faithful slave of Luke 19 still begins the appointment in 33 CE, and is still considered to be the entire "little flock." The FDS change that was made in 2013 now says that the FDS was appointed in 1919 instead of the older explanation: 33 CE. And the change now says that it's the Governing Body since 1919 instead of the older explanation: the "little flock" since 33 CE. 

The discrepancy this created in 2013 was partly addressed in the Watchtower in 2015. Note that the 33 CE date doesn't change, however:

*** w89 10/1 p. 8 The Illustration of the Minas ***
The slave with ten minas pictures a class, or group, of disciples from Pentecost 33 C.E. until now that includes the apostles.

*** w15 3/15 pp. 20-21 pars. 6-8 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
Hence, shortly after his resurrection and before his ascension to heaven, he gave his disciples the weighty commission: “Go, therefore, and make disciples.” (Matt. 28:18-20) Jesus thus entrusted them with a precious treasure, the Christian ministry.—2 Cor. 4:7.
7 What, then, may we conclude? When giving his followers the commission to make disciples, Jesus was, in effect, committing to them “his belongings”—his talents. (Matt. 25:14) Put simply, the talents refer to the responsibility to preach and make disciples.
8 The parable of the talents reveals that the master gave to one slave five talents, to another two, and to still another just one. (Matt. 25:15) Although each slave received a different number, the master expected all of them to be diligent in using the talents, that is, in serving to the best of their ability in the ministry. (Matt. 22:37; Col. 3:23) In the first century, starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., Christ’s followers began doing business with the talents.

The 33 CE date doesn't change because we currently treat the illustration of the talents in Matthew 25 (Luke 19) as if it is to a different audience than the parallel illustration of the "FDS" in Matthew 24 (Luke 12).

But the judgment that used to be in the past for both parables, is now future for both parables:

*** w15 3/15 p. 23 par. 11 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
Hence, when Jesus said that “the master of those slaves came and settled accounts,” he was evidently referring to the time when he will come to execute judgment at the end of this system.

The question about why one of these is important to 1919 and one of them is not, is still a good question. The only explanation so far is that they are simply addressing two different groups of faithful slaves - and that we need not be concerned about anything specific regarding the fulfillment for the unfaithful slaves.

So the question is good because it makes us think about why we put different dates on one illustration and not the other. I don't think we've given a reason for that yet, but if and when the closeness of the parallels among the related parables are discussed, I would think that a further explanation should also be forthcoming.

[HollyW]

3 hours ago, JW Insider said:

It's a good question. I would agree that the original reason for starting that the FDS was appointed in 33 CE was exactly as you have stated. Jesus in a very similar parable of the silver "talents" (Luke 19:11-27, and Matthew 25:14-30) said that he was going away in order to secure a kingdom. (And we explain this as having taken place when Jesus ascended to heaven in 33 CE.)

In that parable of the talents he said that, while the master as away, some would be faithful slaves with respect to their current appointment, and some would be unfaithful. When the master returned, the faithful ones would be appointed over something greater, but the unfaithful would lose everything. 

This is almost parallel to Matthew 24:45-51, where the faithful slave is given an assignment to handle while the master was away. When the master got back the faithful slave would be appointed over something greater. The unfaithful would lose everything. In fact, Luke 12:41-49 is Luke's version of the FDS parable in Matthew 24:45, and it is even a more exact parallel to the Luke 19 parable, where there are different levels of reward/punishment in each.

Both of them (FDS & talents) could be called "the parable of the faithful slave." But really they about both the "faithful and the unfaithful slave."

In both parables, per our latest explanation, Jesus goes away in 33 CE. In both cases the judging is now considered to be future, when he arrives for judgment day. Just because we used to teach that the judgment began in 1918 (then 1919) doesn't mean that Jesus had gone at some time other than 33 CE. Now we teach that the judgment is future, even though we once believed that this judgment that allowed the appointment over all the belongings was in 1918/9. That was true of both parables:

*** w87 8/1 p. 16 par. 5 Christ’s Active Leadership Today ***
The modern history of God’s people shows that this time of accounting came in 1918-19. The parable of the talents illustrates how the Master would settle accounts with the remnant of his anointed slaves.

The only "discrepancy" is that the Watchtower has changed the timing of the appointment in Matthew 24 (and therefore Luke 12) for the faithful slave to begin in 1919, but has not changed the appointment for the faithful slave in Luke 19. The faithful slave of Luke 19 still begins the appointment in 33 CE, and is still considered to be the entire "little flock." The FDS change that was made in 2013 now says that the FDS was appointed in 1919 instead of the older explanation: 33 CE. And the change now says that it's the Governing Body since 1919 instead of the older explanation: the "little flock" since 33 CE. 

The discrepancy this created in 2013 was partly addressed in the Watchtower in 2015. Note that the 33 CE date doesn't change, however:

*** w89 10/1 p. 8 The Illustration of the Minas ***
The slave with ten minas pictures a class, or group, of disciples from Pentecost 33 C.E. until now that includes the apostles.

*** w15 3/15 pp. 20-21 pars. 6-8 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
Hence, shortly after his resurrection and before his ascension to heaven, he gave his disciples the weighty commission: “Go, therefore, and make disciples.” (Matt. 28:18-20) Jesus thus entrusted them with a precious treasure, the Christian ministry.—2 Cor. 4:7.
7 What, then, may we conclude? When giving his followers the commission to make disciples, Jesus was, in effect, committing to them “his belongings”—his talents. (Matt. 25:14) Put simply, the talents refer to the responsibility to preach and make disciples.
8 The parable of the talents reveals that the master gave to one slave five talents, to another two, and to still another just one. (Matt. 25:15) Although each slave received a different number, the master expected all of them to be diligent in using the talents, that is, in serving to the best of their ability in the ministry. (Matt. 22:37; Col. 3:23) In the first century, starting at Pentecost 33 C.E., Christ’s followers began doing business with the talents.

The 33 CE date doesn't change because we currently treat the illustration of the talents in Matthew 25 (Luke 19) as if it is to a different audience than the parallel illustration of the "FDS" in Matthew 24 (Luke 12).

But the judgment that used to be in the past for both parables, is now future for both parables:

*** w15 3/15 p. 23 par. 11 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
Hence, when Jesus said that “the master of those slaves came and settled accounts,” he was evidently referring to the time when he will come to execute judgment at the end of this system.

The question about why one of these is important to 1919 and one of them is not, is still a good question. The only explanation so far is that they are simply addressing two different groups of faithful slaves - and that we need not be concerned about anything specific regarding the fulfillment for the unfaithful slaves.

So the question is good because it makes us think about why we put different dates on one illustration and not the other. I don't think we've given a reason for that yet, but if and when the closeness of the parallels among the related parables are discussed, I would think that a further explanation should also be forthcoming.

Thanks, JWI.

Reading thru your very fine post, I begin to see that maybe the reason why no one has come forward with an answer is because they don't know where Jesus went away to in 1919.  It's difficult enough to follow all the changes made to Matthew 24:45 without adding in another parable about the talents.

Several possibilities occur to me.  One is that these recent changes (including the ones in the Greatest Man book) are a prelude to dropping the 1914 date altogether.  Another is that perhaps a new understanding will come out that, just as Jesus didn't actually return to the earth in 1914 but turned his attention to the earth in 1914, so the Master in Matthew 24:42-51 didn't return to his household on earth but turned his attention to his household on earth.

Anyway.

You've said an interesting thing there......"two different groups of faithful slaves".......

Does this mean there are going to be two different groups being identified as the faithful and discreet slave?

[JW Insider]

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

It's difficult enough to follow all the changes made to Matthew 24:45 without adding in another parable about the talents.

To be clear, I was saying that your question is good because it raised points about some chronological inconsistencies in our current explanations of (four) otherwise consistently-themed parables. I brought up the "talents" parable because the Watchtower brought it up, too, as part of the presentation about how these parables are related, but addressed to different groups. It's the idea that they are given to different groups that drives the differences in the chronology attached to each of them.

Also it's the "talents" parable that specifically mentions Jesus "going away." 

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

they don't know where Jesus went away to in 1919.

However, no one is claiming that Jesus went away anywhere in 1919. In all cases Jesus "went away" in 33 C.E. (just after his resurrection) which most Christian-oriented denominations will agree on. The Watchtower agrees, too.

The Watchtower freely admits that all these parables (4 of them) are related, but gives no reason why some are applied to one group of people and some applied to another. (With one exception.) In only one case is a new reason "hinted at" for applying one of those parables to a different group. Note:

*** w15 3/15 pp. 19-20 par. 3 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
3 The parable of the talents is one of four related illustrations recorded at Matthew 24:45 to 25:46. The other three—about the faithful and discreet slave, the ten virgins, and the sheep and the goats—are also part of Jesus’ answer to the question about the sign of his presence. In all four illustrations, Jesus highlights traits that would distinguish his true followers in these last days. The illustrations about the slave, the virgins, and the talents are directed to his anointed followers. In the illustration involving the faithful slave, Jesus highlights the need for the small group of anointed ones entrusted with feeding his domestics during the last days to be faithful and discreet. In the parable of the virgins, Jesus stresses that all his anointed followers would need to be prepared and to be vigilant, knowing that Jesus is coming but not knowing the day or the hour. In the parable of the talents, Jesus shows that the anointed would need to be diligent in carrying out their Christian responsibilities. Jesus directs the final illustration, the parable of the sheep and the goats, to those with an earthly hope. He emphasizes that they would have to be loyal and give full support to Jesus’ anointed brothers on earth.* Let us now focus on the illustration of the talents.

The sentence containing: "they would have to be loyal and give full support to Jesus' anointed brothers on earth" is followed by a footnote that says:

The identity of the faithful and discreet slave is discussed in The Watchtower, July 15, 2013, pages 21-22, paragraphs 8-10. The identity of the virgins is explained in the preceding article in this magazine. The illustration of the sheep and the goats is explained in The Watchtower, October 15, 1995, pages 23-28, and in the article following this one in this magazine.

In other words, the "sheep" in the parable of the sheep and goats are thought to be the "other sheep" not sheep of the "little flock" because the parable speaks of the sheep doing good to Christ's "brothers" (Matthew 25:40) . . .‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ In the last days, this is explained to be loyalty and full support to the remnant of the anointed, meaning especially the "Governing Body." 

Because there was some reasoning given for identifying the addressees of one parable, I'm assuming that there might also be some reasoning behind the identification for the other parables, but that it was not yet given.

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

One is that these recent changes (including the ones in the Greatest Man book) are a prelude to dropping the 1914 date altogether.

Maybe. I don't see enough evidence for this. Maybe you have seen more.

I believe the new explanation of "this generation" that will not pass away can now allow for keeping 1914 until nearly 2114, another 100 years in the future. Over time, the problem becomes convincing others of the relevance of a date that no one really remembers. Of course, the end could also come any time between now and then which would provide a full resolution to that problem.

4 hours ago, HollyW said:

Does this mean there are going to be two different groups being identified as the faithful and discreet slave?

There already are two different groups identified as being "faithful slave(s)." One group is the class of "faithful slave" of the talents parable that includes all the anointed since 33 C.E. who have taken part in making disciples. The other group is the "Governing Body" since 1919 who are identified as the class of "faithful slave(s)" who have been providing the domestics with food at the proper time. Of course, technically, there is a third class of "faithful slave(s)" because Paul evidently applied the expression in general to all Christians when he said:

(1 Corinthians 4:2) . . . Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful.

Paul's traveling companion, Luke, refers to the "faithful and discreet slave" as the "faithful steward." (NWT)

(Luke 12:42) . . .“Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?

 

[HollyW]

1 hour ago, JW Insider said:

To be clear, I was saying that your question is good because it raised points about some chronological inconsistencies in our current explanations of (four) otherwise consistently-themed parables. I brought up the "talents" parable because the Watchtower brought it up, too, as part of the presentation about how these parables are related, but addressed to different groups. It's the idea that they are given to different groups that drives the differences in the chronology attached to each of them.

Also it's the "talents" parable that specifically mentions Jesus "going away." 

However, no one is claiming that Jesus went away anywhere in 1919. In all cases Jesus "went away" in 33 C.E. (just after his resurrection) which most Christian-oriented denominations will agree on. The Watchtower agrees, too.

The Watchtower freely admits that all these parables (4 of them) are related, but gives no reason why some are applied to one group of people and some applied to another. (With one exception.) In only one case is a new reason "hinted at" for applying one of those parables to a different group. Note:

*** w15 3/15 pp. 19-20 par. 3 Learn From the Illustration of the Talents ***
3 The parable of the talents is one of four related illustrations recorded at Matthew 24:45 to 25:46. The other three—about the faithful and discreet slave, the ten virgins, and the sheep and the goats—are also part of Jesus’ answer to the question about the sign of his presence. In all four illustrations, Jesus highlights traits that would distinguish his true followers in these last days. The illustrations about the slave, the virgins, and the talents are directed to his anointed followers. In the illustration involving the faithful slave, Jesus highlights the need for the small group of anointed ones entrusted with feeding his domestics during the last days to be faithful and discreet. In the parable of the virgins, Jesus stresses that all his anointed followers would need to be prepared and to be vigilant, knowing that Jesus is coming but not knowing the day or the hour. In the parable of the talents, Jesus shows that the anointed would need to be diligent in carrying out their Christian responsibilities. Jesus directs the final illustration, the parable of the sheep and the goats, to those with an earthly hope. He emphasizes that they would have to be loyal and give full support to Jesus’ anointed brothers on earth.* Let us now focus on the illustration of the talents.

The sentence containing: "they would have to be loyal and give full support to Jesus' anointed brothers on earth" is followed by a footnote that says:

The identity of the faithful and discreet slave is discussed in The Watchtower, July 15, 2013, pages 21-22, paragraphs 8-10. The identity of the virgins is explained in the preceding article in this magazine. The illustration of the sheep and the goats is explained in The Watchtower, October 15, 1995, pages 23-28, and in the article following this one in this magazine.

In other words, the "sheep" in the parable of the sheep and goats are thought to be the "other sheep" not sheep of the "little flock" because the parable speaks of the sheep doing good to Christ's "brothers" (Matthew 25:40) . . .‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’ In the last days, this is explained to be loyalty and full support to the remnant of the anointed, meaning especially the "Governing Body." 

Because there was some reasoning given for identifying the addressees of one parable, I'm assuming that there might also be some reasoning behind the identification for the other parables, but that it was not yet given.

Maybe. I don't see enough evidence for this. Maybe you have seen more.

I believe the new explanation of "this generation" that will not pass away can now allow for keeping 1914 until nearly 2114, another 100 years in the future. Over time, the problem becomes convincing others of the relevance of a date that no one really remembers. Of course, the end could also come any time between now and then which would provide a full resolution to that problem.

There already are two different groups identified as being "faithful slave(s)." One group is the class of "faithful slave" of the talents parable that includes all the anointed since 33 C.E. who have taken part in making disciples. The other group is the "Governing Body" since 1919 who are identified as the class of "faithful slave(s)" who have been providing the domestics with food at the proper time. Of course, technically, there is a third class of "faithful slave(s)" because Paul evidently applied the expression in general to all Christians when he said:

(1 Corinthians 4:2) . . . Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful.

Paul's traveling companion, Luke, refers to the "faithful and discreet slave" as the "faithful steward." (NWT)

(Luke 12:42) . . .“Who really is the faithful steward, the discreet one, whom his master will appoint over his body of attendants to keep giving them their measure of food supplies at the proper time?

 

You don’t think that even in Matthew 24 it’s obvious the Master was going somewhere and that was why he put a servant in charge of his household?

Matthew 24:45 [NASB] “Who then is the faithful and sensible slave whom his master put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46“Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 47“Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions.48 But if that evil slave says in his heart, ‘My master is not coming for a long time,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The WT chronology of this now is that verse 45 took place in 1919 rather than in 33 C.E. and none of the other verses have occurred yet.  

Of the six times 1914 appeared in the Greatest Man book, in the revised version of it, Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life---all of them have been removed.  There’s only one occurrence of 1914 in the revised version: “In 1914, what became known as World War I broke out.”

So has time finally run out for the importance of that date, as it did with 1874 and 1878?  You say it won’t run out until 2114 but both generation groups will have died well before then.  The first group has already passed away and the second group are no spring chickens.

[JW Insider]

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

You don’t think that even in Matthew 24 it’s obvious the Master was going somewhere and that was why he put a servant in charge of his household?

Yes. Of course the Master was going somewhere and that was why he put a servant in charge. In the parable of the talents this is exactly what happens, too. In that parable he left in 33 CE and comes back in the future at the time of judgment (circa Armageddon). In the parable of the FDS (faithful slave), Jesus also goes somewhere in 33 CE and comes back for judgment (circa Armageddon). The idea, however, is that there was no need for a specific small group of anointed feeding a much larger group until the beginning of the last days, in the generation before the future judgment (circa Armageddon).

So Jesus has already left in 33 CE, which I think you agree with, but appoints the Governing Body 1,885 years later  (33 + 1885 = 1919). The FDS has a 1,885-year gap between the time Jesus left to go away and the time that there was a need for a Governing Body to be the faithful slave who feeds "at the proper time." The idea, I think, is that the proper time didn't come up until 1919. 

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

Of the six times 1914 appeared in the Greatest Man book, in the revised version of it, Jesus—The Way, the Truth, the Life---all of them have been removed.

You might have a point. But the book is something like a commentary or slightly more explanatory version of what Jesus said, and tries to stay close to the Bible's own context and time frame. But all of the books that are aimed at a younger audience have very few references to 1914. The "Insight" book hardly mentions it. The NWT Bible appendixes have never mentioned it until the 2013 revision. Several of the books and Watchtowers since 1979 have not mentioned it. The new "What Does the Bible Really Teach" book moves the 1914 chart to the back of the book so that it is only in an appendix.

At the same time, the 2014 book "God's Kingdom Rules" mentions the date 65 times. I agree that 2014 was a special year for mentioning 1914 and it has dropped off considerably in the Watchtowers of 2015 and 2016, so far.

3 hours ago, HollyW said:

You say it won’t run out until 2114 but both generation groups will have died well before then.  The first group has already passed away and the second group are no spring chickens.

It's the definition that allows for 2114 or thereabouts. No one said that Fred Franz was the last person of the first group, only that he represented an example of it. If a 10-year old was anointed in 1914 that means he was born in 1904. If he lived to be 110 that would be an example of a person in the first group living until 2014. The definition allows for a very short overlap to fit the idea of "contemporaries" between the two groups. That would mean that a person born in 2004 could technically be anointed at age 10 in 2014 and live to be 110 years old, dying in 2114. I admit that this is not very practical, but the definition allows for it.

I'm only trying to explain our current view. I realize that there appears to be many serious problems with the explanations and definitions.

In any event, I don't think we should deny that Jehovah God has been able to use the historical situation that especially arose in the era of the world wars to draw more attention and questions about the purpose of life. The world went for many years without enough questions and very few forms of Christianity were questioned until the Protestant Reformation. But that Reformation continued with many of the same problems and unchristian practices. I believe that worsening world conditions should be a driver that promotes Christianity as a serious international brotherhood, where we see love for one another, support for one another, refusal to get involved in the divisive politics of war and nationalism, and a lot of other ideas where the Witnesses take a proper stand. I don't judge other Christian-oriented religions that attempt the same thing, but I appreciate the opportunities given to me to help those related to me both in the flesh and those related to me in the faith.

Therefore, I'm not overly distracted by the chronological failures of our past. I think we can and should learn from them, but to me it has already lost its importance. I hope to be judged as a faithful Christian.