Michael the Archangel

[Jesus.defender]

If the NWT is correct in saying that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then why would God command the angels to worship a fellow created angel (in Hebrews 1:6)? 
 

[Manuel Boyet Enicola]

The word translated "worship" is προσκυνέω (proskyneo) in Greek.  So what is the meaning of προσκυνέω? 

According to a Greek lexicon, this could mean:

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4352

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/proskyneo

The NWT is therefore correct in translating the term as "obeisance."

Interestingly, the Catholic Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) uses "adore" and Young's Literal Translation (YLT) uses "bow".  Note that the word (προσκυνέω) is translated differently in the bible for each occurrence.

[HollyW]

On 4/7/2016 at 6:42 PM, Jesus.defender said:

If the NWT is correct in saying that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, then why would God command the angels to worship a fellow created angel (in Hebrews 1:6)? 
 

It's from Psalm 97:7, which speaks about worshiping God, and is applied to Christ at Hebrews 1:6, 
 

[Jesus.defender]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:34 PM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

The word translated "worship" is προσκυνέω (proskyneo) in Greek.  So what is the meaning of προσκυνέω? 

According to a Greek lexicon, this could mean:

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4352

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/proskyneo

The NWT is therefore correct in translating the term as "obeisance."

Interestingly, the Catholic Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) uses "adore" and Young's Literal Translation (YLT) uses "bow".  Note that the word (προσκυνέω) is translated differently in the bible for each occurrence.

No, the word is  proskynēsatōsan

[Jesus.defender]

On 5/28/2016 at 8:34 PM, Manuel Boyet Enicola said:

The word translated "worship" is προσκυνέω (proskyneo) in Greek.  So what is the meaning of προσκυνέω? 

According to a Greek lexicon, this could mean:

1. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence

2. among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence

3. in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication

https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?t=kjv&strongs=g4352

https://billmounce.com/greek-dictionary/proskyneo

The NWT is therefore correct in translating the term as "obeisance."

Interestingly, the Catholic Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) uses "adore" and Young's Literal Translation (YLT) uses "bow".  Note that the word (προσκυνέω) is translated differently in the bible for each occurrence.

NWT Translators Did Not Know Biblical Hebrew Or Greek

The Watchtower Bible calls the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures one of the best translations to be found. But is it a translation or merely are gross distortions of the actual Greek and Hebrew manuscripts based on these men’s opinions. The FORWARD of the New World Translation in 1961 edition, on page 5 states, "It is a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages, Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek, into modern speech ... The translators who have a fear and love of the divine Author of the Holy Scriptures feel especially a responsibility toward Him to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible." Have their translators been responsible? Are they true to the original languages?
 
The men that comprised the Translation Committee were not even Greek scholars qualified to translate the Bible. These men were: N.H. Knorr, F. W. Franz the 4th President, A.D. Schroeder, G.D. Gangas and M. Henschel (write to Personal Freedom Outreach, P.O. Box 26062, St. Louis, Missouri 63136 for paper documentation). All met together in these translation sessions. The translation committee requested that the names of the translators remain secret even after their deaths (Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, p. 258).
 
Franz was asked in a courtroom in Scotland, "Why the secrecy?" he said, "Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto." The attorney replied, "Writers of books and translators do not always get glory and honour for their efforts, do they?" (Pursuer's Proof of Douglas Walsh vs. The Right Honourable James Latham, M.P., P.C., Scottish Court of Sessions, p. 92 Nov. 1954).
 
In 1954, in a Scotland trial, Fred Franz, then head of the Watchtower Editorial Board, admitted that he himself was the one who had checked the accuracy of the translation and recommended its publication. (Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.88.)
 
The following is from the trial transcript: -
(Q): Insofar as translation of the Bible itself is undertaken, are you responsible for that?
(A): I have been authorized to examine a translation and determine its accuracy and recommend its acceptance in the form in which it is submitted.
Later, Franz was asked about his own involvement in the translating(Douglas Walsh v. The Right Honorable James Latham
Clyde, M.P., P.C., etc., Scotland, 1954, (1958 ed.).p.92)
(Q) : Were you yourself responsible for the translation of the Old Testament?
( A ) : Again I cannot answer that question...
Here, under oath, Franz refused to confirm or deny he was the translator of the Hebrew text. Why wouldn't he say that he did not translate the Old Testament? The court also wondered "why" and asked (ibid)
(Q): Why the secrecy?
(A): Because the committee of translation wanted it to remain anonymous and not seek any glory or honour at the making of a translation, and having any names attached thereto.
 
Why is it the writers of the New Testament books identified their authorship by their names, we know they were not seeking honor.
 
The facts speak for themselves. The real reason would be that the translators could not be checked since they had no qualifications and anyone investigating this could not find anyone to assume responsibility for the translation. A shrewd plan indeed.
 
According to Raymond Franz, only Fred Franz had "sufficient knowledge of the Bible languages to attempt translation of this kind. He had studied Greek for two years in the University of Cincinnati but was only self taught In Hebrew." Raymond Franz, Crisis of Conscience (Atlanta: Commentary Press, 1983).
 
Not one of the men had ever studied Greek, and wouldn't know the difference between an alpha or a omega. Only three of the five had even finished high school. Of those three only one went on to College. His name was Fredrick Franz, the same man who became the President of the Jehovah's Witnesses. He did begin at the University of Cincinatti but only completed two years. He then dropped out of College after the first semester in 1913 because he believed what Russell told him, that Christ was returning in 1914. He does not have even the most basic college degree, and certainly does not possess a degree for advanced study of the Bible. In fact, outside of the Watchtower circle Franz is not recognized by anyone as a scholar.
 
As M. James Penton, a former Jehovah's Witness and historian, has written, "to all intents and purposes the New World Translation is the work of one man-Frederick Franz." M. James Penton, Apocalypse Delayed: The Story of Jehovah's Witnesses (Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1985),
 
The men who make up the "translation committee" were self-appointed men lacking any adequate schooling or background in biblical languages unable to function as Bible Translators. Their purpose was not to translate the Scripture into a modern version of the Bible but to justify their theology to their people and have ammunition against Christianity as it is practiced today.
 
The New World Translation is a fabrication with no scholarship involved. It was specifically created to make the Bible agree their preconceived theology. It was made for their people to believe WT doctrine and uphold their false belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel not God.
 
 
What leading Greek scholars say about the NWT:
 
Dr. Bruce M. Metzger, professor of New Testament at Princeton University, calls the NWT "a frightful mistranslation," "Erroneous" and "pernicious" "reprehensible" "If the Jehovah's Witnesses take this translation seriously, they are polytheists." (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature)

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."
British scholar H.H. Rowley stated, "From beginning to end this volume is a shining example of how the Bible should not be translated."

"Well, as a backdrop, I was disturbed because they (Watchtower) had misquoted me in support of their translation." (These words were excerpted from the tape, "Martin and Julius Mantey on The New World Translation", Mantey is quoted on pages 1158-1159 of the Kingdom interlinear Translation)

Dr. Julius Mantey , author of A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, calls the NWT "a shocking mistranslation." "Obsolete and incorrect." "It is neither scholarly nor reasonable to translate John 1:1 'The Word was a god.'"
"I have never read any New Testament so badly translated as The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of The Greek Scriptures.... it is a distortion of the New Testament. The translators used what J.B. Rotherham had translated in 1893, in modern speech, and changed the readings in scores of passages to state what Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach. That is a distortion not a translation." (Julius Mantey , Depth Exploration in The New Testament (N.Y.: Vantage Pres, 1980), pp.136-137)

the translators of the NWT are "diabolical deceivers." (Julius Mantey in discussion with Walter Martin)
 

Dr. William Barclay, a leading Greek scholar, said "it is abundantly clear that a sect which can translate the New Testament like that is intellectually dishonest."

Google Bruce Metzer, Marcus Borg, N.T. Wright, Elaine Pagels, Dominic Crossan-they all believe the NWT is a travesty. It is very bad. These people studied Koine Greek and the social/political world for decades. 
 

[JW Insider]

On 7/10/2016 at 4:52 AM, Jesus.defender said:

No, the word is  proskynēsatōsan

That's a little like claiming that the verb "to say" isn't in the following sentence: "Whenever he says something, others begin saying the same thing that he said."

In Greek, there are many more forms of verb tense conjugations than there are in English. So verbs are simply referenced by the first form: first person singular.

Therefore, for reference purposes, proskunesatosan is proskuneo. 

 

[Jesus.defender]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

For someone who knew nothing about translation as some people like to think so, the WTS translation is as with any other bible translation, accurate!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

People should STOP going to erred websites like FreeMinds, and JWfacts. Their perception of the WTS is based on ill-conceived notion of intelligence.

 

 

 

6318  προσκυνέω

 

• προσκυνέω (κυνέω ‘to kiss’) impf. προσεκύνουν; fut. προσκυνήσω; 1 aor. προσεκύνησα (trag., Hdt.+. Freq. used to designate the custom of prostrating oneself before persons and kissing their feet or the hem of their garment, the ground, etc.; the Persians did this in the presence of their deified king, and the Greeks before a divinity or someth. holy.) to express in attitude or gesture one’s complete dependence on or submission to a high authority figure, (fall down and) worship, do obeisance to, prostrate oneself before, do reverence to, welcome respectfully, in Attic Gk., and later (e.g. Appian, Mithrid. 104 §489), used w. the acc. (so Mt 4:10 and Lk 4:8 [Dt 6:13 v.l.]; J 4:22ab, 23b, 24a; Rv 9:20. —Gen 37:9; Ex 11:8; Judg 7:15 A; pseudepigr.; Philo; Jos., C. Ap. 1, 239, Ant. 2, 13; 7, 250; Just.; Tat.; Mel., P. 92, 690; Ath.); beside it the Koine uses the dat. (Phryn. p. 463 Lob.; JWittmann, Sprachl. Untersuchungen zu Cosmas Indicopl., diss. Munich 1913, 16; KWolf, Studien z. Sprache des Malalas II, diss. Munich 1912, 34; GKilpatrick in: Studies and Documents 29, ’67, 154-56; B-D-F §151, 2; Rob. 455; 476f), which the LXX (s. also JosAs; ApcMos 27:33) and our lit. prefer (s. also EpArist 135; Jos., Ant. 6, 55; Just., D. 30, 3; 78, 9; 88, 1.—Jos., Ant. 6, 154 πρ. τῷ θεῷ immediately after τὸν θεὸν πρ.). This reverence or worship is paid

 

 

 

a. to human beings, but by this act they are to be recognized as belonging to a superhuman realm (Appian, Mithrid. 104 §489: Pompey; Galen, Protr. 5 p. 12, 2ff ed. WJohn: Socrates, Homer, Hippocrates, Plato): to a king (so Hdt. et al.; cp. 2 Km 18:28; 24:20; 3 Km 1:16, 53. On proskynesis in the Hellenistic ruler cults s. LTaylor, JHS 47, 1927, 53ff, The Divinity of the Rom. Emperor ’31, esp. 256-66; against her WTarn, Alexander the Great II, ’50, 347-73) ὁ δοῦλος προσεκύνει αὐτῷ Mt 18:26 (of a female slave toward her κύριος PGiss 17, 11f=Mitt-Wilck, I/2, 481; s. Jos., Ant. 2, 11); to Peter by Cornelius Ac 10:25 (cp. Apollonius [c. 197 AD] in Eus., HE 5, 18, 6).—The church at Philadelphia προσκυνήσουσιν ἐνώπιον τῶν ποδῶν σου Rv 3:9 (on πρ. ἐνώπιόν τινος cp. Ps 21:28; 85:9; Is 66:23; TestAbr B 4 p. 108, 17 [Stone 64, 17]).—Jesus, who is rendered homage as Messianic king and helper: Mt 2:2, 8, 11.—8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; J 9:38.—Mt 20:20; GJs 20:4 (codd.); 21:1, 2 (codd.). A man possessed by an unclean spirit asks a favor of him Mk 5:6. Mock worship on the part of soldiers 15:19 (στέφανος 1). S. also bε below.

 

 

 

b. to transcendent beings (God: Aeschyl. et al.; X., An. 3, 2, 9; 13; Pla., Rep. 3, 398a; Polyb. 18, 37, 10; Plut., Pomp. 626 [14, 4]; Lucian, Pisc. 21 τῇ θεῷ; PGM 4, 649. Of various divinities in the ins [s. OGI II 700a index VIII; Sb 7911ff]; PFlor 332, 11 θεούς; LXX; Philo, Gig. 54 τὸν θεόν al.; Jos., Ant. 6, 154; 20, 164 al.; Theoph. Ant. 1, 11 [p. 82, 3]).

 

 

 

α. of deity in monotheistic cult (Christians, Judeans, Samaritans) κύριον τὸν θεόν σου προσκυνήσεις (Dt 6:13 v.l.) Mt 4:10; Lk 4:8. πρ. τῷ πατρί J 4:21, 23a; cp. 23b. τῷ θεῷ (Jos., Ant. 6, 55; 9, 267; cp. Orig., C. Cels. 5, 11, 38 [w. λατρεύειν]) Rv 19:4 (w. πίπτειν), 10b; 22:9. See Hb 1:6 (Dt 32:43 LXX). τῷ ζῶντι Rv 4:10. τῷ ποιήσαντι τὸν οὐρανόν 14:7. πεσὼν ἐπὶ πρόσωπον προσκυνήσει τῷ θεῷ he will fall down and worship God (cp. 2 Km 9:6 of obeisance before David) 1 Cor 14:25; cp. Rv 7:11; 11:16. ἐνώπιόν σου (s. the Ps. reff. in a above) 15:4. Abs. (SIG 1173, 2; PTebt 416, 7; LXX) J 4:20ab, 24ab; Ac 8:27. Used w. ἀναβαίνειν (UPZ 62, 33 [161 BC] ἐὰν ἀναβῶ κἀγὼ προσκυνῆσαι; Jos., Ant. 20, 164) J 12:20; Ac 24:11; cp. Rv 11:1. W. πίπτειν (s. Jos., Ant. 8, 119) Rv 5:14. προσεκύνησεν ἐπὶ τὸ ἄκρον τῆς ῥάβδου αὐτοῦ he bowed in worship (or prayed) over the head of his staff Hb 11:21 (Gen 47:31).

 

 

 

β. of image worship in polytheistic cult (LXX; Ar. 3, 2; Just.; Ath. 15, 1 τὰ ἀγάλματα) προσκυνεῖν τοῖς νεκροῖς θεοῖς 2 Cl 3:1 or λίθους καὶ ξύλα κτλ. 1:6 (cp. EpArist 135 … οἷς πρ.). See Ac 7:43; Dg 2:5. τὰ ὑφ᾽ ὑμῶν προσκυνούμενα the things that are worshiped by you 2:4. Abs., w. θύειν MPol 12:2.

 

 

 

γ. the devil and Satanic beings (the eschatological opponent Iren. 5, 28, 2) Mt 4:9; Lk 4:7 (on πρ. ἐνώπιον ἐμοῦ s. α above). τὰ δαιμόνια Rv 9:20. τῷ δράκοντι 13:4a; τῷ θηρίῳ 13:4b. τὸ θηρίον vss. 8 (αὐτόν), 12; 20:4. τῇ εἰκόνι (Da 3:5 al.) τοῦ θηρίου 13:15; cp. 16:2; 19:20. τὸ θηρίον καὶ τ. εἰκόνα αὐτοῦ 14:9, 11. See θηρίον 1b; also PTouilleux, L’Apocalypse et les cultes de Domitien et de Cybèle ’35.

 

 

 

δ. angels (TestAbr A 3 p. 79, 28 [Stone p. 6]) Rv 22:8; cp. 19:10a.

 

 

 

ε.The risen Lord is esp. the object of worship: Mt 28:9, 17; Lk 24:52 P⁷⁵ et al. Likewise the exalted Christ MPol 17:3. See also a above, end.—Lit. s.v. προσεύχομαι, end; Bolkestein [δεισιδαιμονία, end] 23ff; JHorst, Proskynein: Z. Anbetung im Urchristentum nach ihrer religionsgesch. Eigenart ’32; Berthe MMarti, Proskynesis and adorare: Language 12, ’36, 272-82; BReicke, Some Reflections on Worship in the NT: TWManson mem. vol. ’59, 194-209.—B. 1469; Kl. Pauly IV 1189. New Docs 2, 68; 3, 77-78; 4, 61f. M-M. EDNT. TW. Sv.

 

 

 

Parallel Verses

 

New International Version

 

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

New Living Translation

 

And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, "Let all of God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

English Standard Version

 

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

 

 

 

Berean Study Bible

 

And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all God's angels worship Him."

 

 

 

Berean Literal Bible

 

And again, when He brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: "And let all God's angels worship Him."

 

 

 

New American Standard Bible

 

And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

 

 

 

King James Bible

 

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

 

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible

 

When He again brings His firstborn into the world, He says, And all God's angels must worship Him.

 

 

 

International Standard Version

 

And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

NET Bible

 

But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him!"

 

 

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

 

Again, when he brings The Firstborn into the universe, he says, “All the Angels of God shall worship him.”

 

 

 

GOD'S WORD® Translation

 

When God was about to send his firstborn Son into the world, he said, "All of God's angels must worship him."

 

 

 

New American Standard 1977

 

And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

 

            “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

 

"

For someone who knew nothing about translation as some people like to think so, the WTS translation is as with any other bible translation, accurate!!!!!!!!!!

"

 

Really? who translated it?

 

Show me John 1:1 in all the other translations.

[Jesus.defender]

2 hours ago, AllenSmith said:

For someone who knew nothing about translation as some people like to think so, the WTS translation is as with any other bible translation, accurate!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

 

People should STOP going to erred websites like FreeMinds, and JWfacts. Their perception of the WTS is based on ill-conceived notion of intelligence.

 

Parallel Verses

 

New International Version

 

And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

New Living Translation

 

And when he brought his supreme Son into the world, God said, "Let all of God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

English Standard Version

 

And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”

 

 

 

Berean Study Bible

 

And again, when God brings His firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all God's angels worship Him."

 

 

 

Berean Literal Bible

 

And again, when He brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: "And let all God's angels worship Him."

 

 

 

New American Standard Bible

 

And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, "AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."

 

 

 

King James Bible

 

And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

 

 

 

Holman Christian Standard Bible

 

When He again brings His firstborn into the world, He says, And all God's angels must worship Him.

 

 

 

International Standard Version

 

And again, when he brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."

 

 

 

NET Bible

 

But when he again brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all the angels of God worship him!"

 

 

 

Aramaic Bible in Plain English

 

Again, when he brings The Firstborn into the universe, he says, “All the Angels of God shall worship him.”

 

 

 

GOD'S WORD® Translation

 

When God was about to send his firstborn Son into the world, he said, "All of God's angels must worship him."

 

 

 

New American Standard 1977

 

And when He again brings the first-born into the world, He says,

 

            “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

 

Why didnt you quote the NWT in the parallel verses? The NWT does NOT agree with ANY of these translations.

 

" People should STOP going to erred websites like FreeMinds, and JWfacts. Their perception of the WTS is based on ill-conceived notion of intelligence. "

 

If you really believe that, congratulations, the watchtower has you successfully brainwashed.

I know you are not allowed to think for yourselves.

1983 "Avoid independent thinking...questioning the counsel that is provided by God's visible organization." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 22)

1983 "Fight against independent thinking." (Watchtower, Jan. 15, 1983 pg. 27 )
 

Now, if those "erred websites" quote OFFICIAL watchtower publications, whats the harm?

 

 

 

[Jesus.defender]

4 minutes ago, AllenSmith said:

I didn’t mention the NWT since you did such a good job of contradicting yourself as you normally do with it.

 

Think of a better one. This one is old school and cliché, even the experts don’t agree with you.

 

Jehovah’s Witnesses: Portrait of a contemporary religious movement Page 11-12

 

People who espouse world-renouncing creeds seldom have trouble-free lives, particularly if they are successful in recruiting others to their cause. The mass media thrive on stories of vulnerable individuals unable to escape from dangerous cult leaders who force their docile followers to obey their every command. Not surprisingly, this kind of sensationalism has distorted public perception of religious conversion. Although there is no doubt that some movements have involved their members in life-threatening activities (including suicide), these incidents are rare. But conversion need not affect life and limb to cause a public stir. When people deviate from convention, conformist onlookers are always at the ready with a fixed repertoire of explanations.

 

 Over the years, tabloid newspapers (with the aid of anti-cult activists) have fueled public contempt for heterodox religion with scare stories of brainwashing and psychological manipulation. To suggest that individuals have been brainwashed is to strip them of their sanity. It is to infer that their actions are the result of some powerful external force over which they have no control. I am unwilling to accept the brainwashing thesis for several reasons. First, it is a metaphor that reduces the mental state of so-called victims to such an extent that it becomes
difficult either to hold them accountable for their actions or to take what they believe seriously. The day we allow this to happen will be a sad day for the social sciences. My second objection concerns empirical measurement. Unless the term can be clearly defined, it is impossible to use any kind of research instrument to test its validity; hence, there is little hope either of exposing those who allegedly employ this process and even less of exonerating them from blame. By far my biggest concern, however, is that the brainwashing metaphor can be used to undermine any political or religious ideology that happens to be unpopular. Stories of brainwashing serve much the same purpose in our culture as accusations of witchcraft in remote African villages. They are an effective means of undermining wayward beliefs and denying a voice to those who hold them. They may even be used to expel religious dissidents from secular communities. It is, perhaps, little wonder that millenarians retreat to the margins of society. Whether we like it or not, most of the available social scientific evidence suggests that, though their behavior may be anti-social, the majority of those who join millenarian movements are making an informed choice.

 

If this research means anything, people who reject religious orthodoxy are doing little other than expressing their dissatisfaction with tradition. It does not mean that they are of a different species. For what it is worth, I too find millenarian evangelists unconvincing, but it is only by listening to what they have to say that we can achieve a better understanding of their way of life
and of how others come to view them with suspicion. For this, we need an appropriate methodology.

 

 

 

 

 

 

. Buddy, when it comes to scripture, I’m the most independent thinker you’ll ever meet.

 

How about reading the article instead of reading it from some worthless websites?

 

Watchtower Jan 15, 1983 Article Title: Exposing the Devil’s Subtle Designs

 

Then apply 1 Corinthians 15:33: Context: The Order of Resurrection

 

33Do not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good character.”

 

undoubtedly, you’ll find you meet these criteria.

 

Watchtower Jan 15, 1983 Article Title: Armed for the Fight Against Wicked Spirits

 

Sub Article: Fight Against Independent Thinking

 

19 As we study the Bible we learn that Jehovah has always guided his servants in an organized way. And just as in the first century there was only one true Christian organization, so today Jehovah is using only one organization. (Ephesians 4:4, 5; Matthew 24:45-47) Yet there are some who point out that the organization has had to make adjustments before, and so they argue: “This shows that we have to make up our own mind on what to believe.” This is independent thinking. Why is it so dangerous?

 

20 Such thinking is an evidence of pride. And the Bible says: “Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling.” (Proverbs 16:18) If we get to thinking that we know better than the organization, we should ask ourselves: “Where did we learn Bible truth in the first place? Would we know the way of the truth if it had not been for guidance from the organization? Really, can we get along without the direction of God’s organization?” No, we cannot!—Compare Acts 15:2, 28, 29; 16:4, 5.

 

21 When we consider the mighty spirit forces who are fighting against us, we must acknowledge that on our own we could not possibly win. Yet with God’s backing, and with the help and support of his organization—our worldwide association of brothers—we cannot lose. (Psalm 118:6-12; 1 Peter 5:9) However, we must never forget that we are in a spiritual war, and that wartime is no time to be relaxing, enjoying only leisure and the pleasures of life. Rather, it is the time for vigorous training, alertness and self-sacrifice. The enemy has been able to get some from among us to relax their guard, and these have become battle casualties. May this never happen to us! It will not if we keep on “the complete suit of armor from God” and “stand firm against the [crafty acts] of the Devil.”—Ephesians 6:11, 12.

 

So is this understanding derived from the WTS, or did the WTS take it from the Inspired word of God. (Scripture)

 

 

Learn to understand scripture!!!!!!!!!

What’s the Harm? Well, there you go, The Truth shall set you free from ignorance.

 

" I didn’t mention the NWT since you did such a good job of contradicting yourself as you normally do with it. "

 

Wow. Then I will quote it.

 

" And let all God's angels do obeisance to him"

 

So, we see the NWT contradicts ALL the versions you quoted.

 

You are a very rude person and not a good example of a JW.

 

you cut and paste from wt websites and are blinded to the truth.

 

The problem with this verse in the JW Bible is with the word "obeisance."  In the Greek, the word is proskuneo. It means, worship: fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, obeisance. Obeisance means, "bending the head or body or knee as a sign of reverence or submission or shame." While it is certainly true that people would bow down before Jesus in the Bible, the English word "obeisance" does not carry sufficiently the act of worship due Him because of His divine nature.  Since the Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God in flesh, they cannot have their Bible teach that Jesus was worshipped. Therefore, every single time that the word "proskuneo" is used in reference to Christ, it is translated as "obeisance" and never as worship. For proof of this, please see the CARM article The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship) which has a chart of every occurrence of the Greek word and how the New World Translation renders it.

[HollyW]

In the early days of the WTS, its founder, C.T. Russell, included the worship of Jesus Christ in the charter of the Watchtower Bible & Trast Society as one of its purposes. If you have the 1945 Yearbook, you'll find it on page 32. If not, it is online at this website:http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/archi...s/yb1945_E.pdf

And this is the text you'll find there---notice the part I bolded:
 

 

32 Yearbook

received from that state a charter to carry on their
Christian activity. The chartered purposes of that Society
are in full accord with the Lord's command to
'go, disciple all nations'. The words of its present
charter show that the purposes of the Watch Tower
Bible & Tract Society are :

To act as the servant of and the legal world-wide governing
agency for that body of Christian persons known as
Jehovah's witnesses; to preach the gospel of God's kingdom
under Christ Jesus unto all nations as a witness to the name,
word and supremacy of Almighty God JEHOVAH ; to print
and distribute Bibles and to disseminate Bible truths In
various languages by means of making and publishing literature
containing information and comment explaining
Bible truths and prophecy concerning establishment of Jehovah's
kingdom under Christ Jesus; to authorize and appoint
agents, servants, employees, teachers, instructors,
evangelists, missionaries and ministers to go forth to all the
world publicly and from house to house to preach and teach
Bible truths to persons willing to listen by leaving with such
persons said literature and by conducting Bible studies thereon
; to improve men, women and children mentally and
morally by Christian missionary work and by charitable
and benevolent instruction of the people on the Bible and
incidental scientific, historical and literary subjects; to
establish and maintain private Bible schools and classes
for gratuitous Instruction of men and women in the Bible,
Bible literature and Bible history; to teach, train, prepare
and equip men and women as ministers, missionaries, evangelists,
preachers, teachers and lecturers ; to provide and
maintain homes, places and buildings for gratuitous housing
of such students, lecturers, teachers and ministers ; to furnish
gratuitously to such students, lecturers, teachers, educators
and ministers suitable meals and lodging, and to
prepare, support, maintain and send out to various parts
of the world Christian missionaries, teachers and instructors
in the Bible and Bible literature, and for public Christian
worship of Almighty God and Christ Jesus; to arrange
for and hold local and world-wide assemblies for such worship;
to use or operate radio broadcasting stations for
preaching this gospel of the Kingdom ; and to do any and all
other lawful things that its Board of Directors shall deem
expedient for the purposes stated.

Not only that, these are excerpts from other WTS publications, beginning with Russell's view:

"It seems clear that His Divinity was retained in humanity because He repeatedly spoke of Himself as having come down from heaven, and because He, though passing through trial and sorrow as a man, was yet possessed of the authority and exercised the prerogatives of a God. He was the object of unreproved worship even when a babe, by the wise men who came to see the new-born King. Matt. 2:2-11. Even the angels delighted to do Him honor. "When He bringeth the first-begotten into the world, He saith, "And let all the angels of God worship Him." Heb. 1:6. He never reproved any one for acts of worship offered to Himself, but when Cornelius offered such service to Peter--the leading apostle-- "he took him up, saying, stand up; I myself also am a man." .... Had Christ not been more than a man the same reason would have prevented from receiving worship...." Zion's Watch Tower 1880 Oct pp.2-3

"It is undoubtedly proper enough for us to address petitions to our Redeemer and Advocate, who loved us and gave himself for us....Although we are nowhere instructed to make petitions to him, it evidently could not be improper so to do; for such a course is nowhere prohibited, and the disciples worshiped him." Zion's Watch Tower 1892 May 15 p.157 

"Question. The fact that our Lord received worship is claimed by some to be an evidence that while on earth he was God the Father disguised in a body of flesh and not really a man. Was he really worshiped, or is the translation faulty? Answer. Yes, we believe our Lord Jesus while on earth was really worshiped, and properly so. It was proper for our Lord to receive worship in view of his having been the only begotten of the Father and his agent in the creation of all things, including man." Zion's Watch Tower 1898 Jul 15 p.216 

"In one respect many of Christendom could learn numerous important lessons from these wise Gentiles....They worshiped him in three senses of the word: (1) They fell before him, prostrated themselves, thus physically expressing their reverence. (2) They worshiped him in their hearts and with the tongue gave expression to their rejoicing and confidence. (3) They opened their treasure-box and presented to him three gifts appropriate to royalty: the myrrh representing submission, frankincense representing praise, gold representing obedience." Zion's Watch Tower 1906 Jan 1 p.15

Rutherford continued this teaching: 

"Jehovah God commands all to worship Christ Jesus because Christ Jesus is the express image of his Father, Jehovah, and because he is the Executive Officer of Jehovah always carrying out Jehovah's purpose (Heb.:3-6)." Watchtower 1939 Nov 15 p.339 

"During the Millennium, "the princes will lead the people in their worship of Jehovah and of Christ." Vindication Volume 3 (J. F. Rutherford, 1932) p.295 

"The people of all nations who obtain salvation must come to the house of the Lord to worship there; that is to say, they must believe on and worship Jehovah God and the Lord Jesus Christ, his chief instrument (Philippians 2:10, 11)." Salvation (J. F. Rutherford, 1939) p.151

Knorr continued this teaching: 

"Now, at Christ's coming to reign as king in Jehovah's capital organization Zion, to bring in a righteous new world, Jehovah makes him infinitely higher than the godly angels or messengers and accordingly commands them to worship him. Since Jehovah God now reigns as King by means of his capital organization Zion, then whosoever would worship Him must also worship and bow down to Jehovah's Chief One in that capital organization, namely, Christ Jesus, his Co-regent on the throne of The Theocracy." Watchtower 1945 Oct 15 p.313

Take into account also that the WTS says not only did God approve of this, but HE Himself was enlightening Russell and Rutherford spiritually to teach this. https://www.jw.org/en/publications/b...-rediscovered/
 

[Witness]

On 7/30/2016 at 2:07 PM, HollyW said:

In the early days of the WTS, its founder, C.T. Russell, included the worship of Jesus Christ in the charter of the Watchtower Bible & Trast Society as one of its purposes. If you have the 1945 Yearbook, you'll find it on page 32. If not, it is online at this website:http://wtarchive.svhelden.info/archi...s/yb1945_E.pdf

Holly, thank you for your research on this.  The sheep in the organization are led astray by confusing doctrine; what is taught today was not the case yesterday.  Would those men who spoke of Christ as being worshiped be disfellowshipped today? It would be considered blasphemy by the GB if one were to say they worship Christ.  Truly, it is Satan that opposes any worship to be given Christ, instilling this thought in the heart.  How strong he presents the desire for us to worship HIM, through his use of the world and all that is in it, which happens to be where the organization resides.

God does not commend any shepherd for double-mindedness.

“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.  Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us?  But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

“God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”

 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.  Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.  Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.”  James 4:4-10

“Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?  My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.”  James 3:10-12

“Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing.”  1 Kings 18:21

So, too, the sheep say nothing in the organization do today.  If one says worship Christ, they do.  If one says no, they don’t.  This is the downfall of giving obedience to men….and yet, “obey God as ruler rather than men” is found numerous times on the org’s website…for a reason.  Could this be Satan covering his tracks while he brings in the deception?  The meaning of Babylon is "confusion"; concerning Revelation's Babylon, we are told

“‘Come out of her, my people,'
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes."  Rev 18:4,5

 

 

[HollyW]

6 minutes ago, Witness said:

Holly, thank you for your research on this.  The sheep in the organization are led astray by confusing doctrine; what is taught today was not the case yesterday.  Would those men who spoke of Christ as being worshiped be disfellowshipped today? It would be considered blasphemy by the GB if one were to say they worship Christ.  Truly, it is Satan that opposes any worship to be given Christ, instilling this thought in the heart.  How strong he presents the desire for us to worship HIM, through his use of the world and all that is in it, which happens to be where the organization resides.

 

God does not commend any shepherd for double-mindedness.

 

“You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.  Or do you think Scripture says without reason that he jealously longs for the spirit he has caused to dwell in us?  But he gives us more grace. That is why Scripture says:

 

“God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”

 

 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Come near to God and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded.  Grieve, mourn and wail. Change your laughter to mourning and your joy to gloom.  Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will lift you up.”  James 4:4-10

 

“Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. Can both fresh water and salt water flow from the same spring?  My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.”  James 3:10-12

 

“Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waver between two opinions? If the Lord is God, follow him; but if Baal is God, follow him.” But the people said nothing.”  1 Kings 18:21

So, too, the sheep say nothing in the organization do today.  If one says worship Christ, they do.  If one says no, they don’t.  This is the downfall of giving obedience to men….and yet, “obey God as ruler rather than men” is found numerous times on the org’s website…for a reason.  Could this be Satan covering his tracks while he brings in the deception?  The meaning of Babylon is "confusion"; concerning Revelation's Babylon, we are told

 

 

“‘Come out of her, my people,'
    so that you will not share in her sins,
    so that you will not receive any of her plagues;
 for her sins are piled up to heaven,
    and God has remembered her crimes."  Rev 18:4,5

 

 

 You're welcome, Witness.   And thanks for those powerful scriptures.

You mention how often "obey God as ruler rather than men" is found at jw.org.  It's revealing that both times this is referred to in Acts it is about preaching in the name of Jesus:

Acts 4:18   And when they had summoned them, they commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus.¹⁹ But Peter and John answered and said to them, “Whether it is right in the sight of God to give heed to you rather than to God, you be the judge; ²⁰ for we cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard.” 

Acts 5:28  “We gave you strict orders not to continue teaching in this name, and yet, you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and^(B)intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” ²⁹ But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men."

It brings to mind the question: why weren't they preaching in Jehovah's name?