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@Srecko Sostar They continued it because early Christians also maintain this view despite some of them breaking off into other odd teachings, an example would be molding the Trinity into the mix, referring to Jesus/Michael as God. But to be brief, people see Jesus as not only the Son of God, but as a Mighty Warrior as well, and it is understandable by many as to whom did God put to lead the legion of Angels that will fight against they wicked.

@Malum Intellectus Yep. I'll be able to post more information when I get back to my main location, for I do have a lot of findings on such information.

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Jehovah has NEVER changed ... although he has changed his mind many times when entreated to do so, and he DOES "learn as he goes along". He was genuinely surprised when children were offered to t

We would assume that Michael, the archangel, became a fetus, a baby, then a toddler, then a young boy, then went through puberty, and became a young man, and then a full grown man who gave himself ove

"in Emmanuel name, amen" :)))))))))

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4 hours ago, Space Merchant said:

Yep. I'll be able to post more information when I get back to my main location, for I do have a lot of findings on such information.

It’s an interesting question. In the category of fun facts. The book of watchers and the book of parables give certain insight, just as the Islamic interpretation of Michael. Yet, the more effective use of Michael was in the Chaldean/Babylonian time.

Encyclopedia of Angels

Michael
The most prominent and greatest angel in Christian, Jewish, and Islamic lore. Michael means in Hebrew
“who is like God” or “who is as God.” Michael is Chaldean in origin. In
ANGELOLOGIES, his chief roles
are many: he is warrior, priest, protector, healer, and guardian. He holds numerous offices in heaven: he is
chief of the
VIRTUES and ARCHANGELS, one of the ANGELS OF THE PRESENCE, a PRINCE OF LIGHT, ANGEL
OF TRUTH, and angel of repentance, righteousness, mercy, and salvation. Some of his roles overlap with
those of other great archangels, Uriel, Gabriel, and Raphael; of the four, he is the primary aspect of the

ANGEL OF THE LORD. Michael also shares similarities with Metatron and Melchizedek. He also has duties as the ANGEL OF DEATH.

Dictionary of Angels

Sabathiel (Sabbathi)-in Jewish cabala, a spirit (intelligence) of the planet Saturn. He receives the divine light of the Holy Spirit and communicates
it to the dwellers in his kingdom. In Mosaic lore, Sabathiel is one of 7 princes "who stand continually before God, and to whom are given the
spirit-names of the planets." [Rf: Cornelius Agrippa, Three Books of Occult Philosophy 111.1

What makes the concept similar is the meaning, “who is like god”. Of course, the interpretation of John 1:1 could be construed to be similar. Trinity would be at odds since Trinity cannot measure, “who is like God” to “is god” in a contextual way. That would make the intent different. And God doesn’t make things confusing.

My observation was strictly on the comment “it did not start with JW’s” which is correct. This manifestation began with the concept of Christ coming to earth as the son of God, the Messiah, and the son of man. Time constraint make this visionary, seem troubling, but not if we consider this vision with Peter’s saying in 2 Peter3:8 and the psalmist that echoed the same in Psalms 90:4 Therefore, Jesus preparation was but only a few days ago!

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8 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Interesting quotes, but still too light on detail. Dates and source examples needed.

I believe you have asked space merchant to prevail as a good researcher. However, may I ask what your disagreement is with the quote “it did not start with JW’s” that would require a more in-depth discussion? Are you not a JW? I am simply referring to the concept of JW’s not being the first to research this ancient manifestation.

The mindset would require only one interpretation, of many. Can that be possible?

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4 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

may I ask what your disagreement is with the quote “it did not start with JW’s”

None.

I believe I asked  if there are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

That doesn't mean I disagree with it.

Perhaps to clarify: 

Are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses." other than what is stated in the Bible?

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3 hours ago, Gone Away said:

I believe I asked  if there are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

I see. Perhaps the difficulty lies with the complete phrase "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

To better clarify my statement, I will draw attention to the latter portion of the phrase “did not start with JW’s” that interested me, as factual. Jesus Being Michael would have to be left up to interpretation. Generally, those that debate the Watchtower? Usually, resort to the Watchtower’s reasoning book. In that book? The Watchtower “asks” a question.

However, in the 19 century, the Bible students were framing this question with specific notations as, how to understand the symbolism of Michael as an authority figure. The intent of the ancients then lies with this symbolism that the Watchtower accepts.

This result is graphically described by the Prophet— [B147] "The noise of a multitude in the mountains [kingdoms] like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the Lord of hosts mustereth the host of battle." Isa. 13:4 "THE VOICE OF THE ARCHANGEL" is another striking symbol of similar import. The name "archangel" signifies chief messenger; and our anointed Lord himself is Jehovah's Chief Messenger—the "Messenger of the Covenant." (Mal. 3:1) Daniel refers to the same personage, calling him Michael, which name signifies who as God—an appropriate name for him who is "the express image of the Father's person," and the representative of his authority and power. The voice of the Archangel represents Christ's authority and command. This symbol, then, represents Christ as taking control, or beginning his reign and issuing his commands, his official orders, announcing the change of dispensation by the enforcement of the laws of his kingdom.

The same thought is differently expressed by Daniel, when he says, Then shall Michael, the great Prince, "stand up." To stand up signifies to assume authority, to give commands. See "ariseth," Isa. 2:19,21. Another illustration of this symbol is from David, who says of Christ prophetically, "He uttered his voice; the earth melted." The great time of trouble will be precipitated, and the earth (organized society) will melt, or disintegrate, under the change of administration going into effect when the new King utters his voice of command. At his command, systems of error, civil, social and religious, must go down, however old or firmly entrenched and fortified they may be. The sword out of his mouth shall cause the havoc: The truth on every subject, and in all its varied aspects, shall judge men, and, under his power and overruling, shall cause the overturning of evil and error in all their thousand forms.

"THE TRUMP OF GOD." Many seem thoughtlessly to entertain the idea that this trumpet will be a literal sound on [B148] the air. But this will be seen to be an unreasonable expectation, when it is noticed that Paul here refers to what the Revelator designates "The Seventh Trumpet," the "Last Trump" in a series of symbolic trumpets. (Rev. 11:15; 1 Cor. 15:52) The proof that these references are to the same trumpet is found in the record of the events connected with each. Paul mentions the resurrection, and the establishment of the Lord's Kingdom, as connected with "the trump of God," and the Revelator mentions the same with even greater minuteness. The propriety of calling the "seventh," or "last trump," the "trump of God," is evident, too, when we remember that the events mentioned under the preceding six trumpets of Revelation refer to humanity's doings, while the seventh refers specially to the Lord's work, and covers the "Day of the Lord." Since the six preceding trumpets were symbols—and this is generally admitted by commentators and students who make any claim as expositors of Revelation—it would be a violation of reason and common sense to expect the seventh, the last of the series, to be a literal, audible sound on the air. And not only so, but it would be out of harmony with the Lord's general methods, as well as with those statements of Scripture indicating the secrecy of his coming; for a thief never sounds a trumpet to announce his arrival.

 

*** w10 4/1 p. 19 Is Jesus the Archangel Michael? ***

In view of the foregoing, what can we conclude? Jesus Christ is Michael the archangel. Both names—Michael (meaning “Who Is Like God?”) and Jesus (meaning “Jehovah Is Salvation”)—focus attention on his role as the leading advocate of God’s sovereignty. Philippians 2:9 states: “God exalted him [the glorified Jesus] to a superior position and kindly gave him the name that is above every other name.”

It is important to note that the human birth of Jesus was not the beginning of his life. Before Jesus was born, Mary was visited by an angel who told her that she would conceive a child by means of holy spirit and that she should name the child Jesus. (Luke 1:31) During his ministry, Jesus often spoke of his prehuman existence.—John 3:13; 8:23, 58.

So Michael the archangel is Jesus in his prehuman existence. After his resurrection and return to heaven, Jesus resumed his service as Michael, the chief angel, “to the glory of God the Father.”—Philippians 2:11

 

You may consider, further research with the book known in the western world as the “book of Enoch”. There you can find the reference to the archangel Michael. This reference, as previously stated was around 300 B.C. which was carried down by the Chaldean/Babylonian culture.

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6 hours ago, Gone Away said:

Are any dates and source examples to substantiate the statement: "Jesus being Michael did not start with the Jehovah's Witnesses." other than what is stated in the Bible?

 

Based on 1 Thess 4, etc., it certainly makes sense, and it's not surprising that several groups had already come up with this belief. I think a good place to start is to check out the references in Wikipedia, from the point where the topic of Michael as Christ comes up, right up to the mention of the position held by Jehovah's Witnesses. The rest of this post is just a copy and paste from Wikipedia:

  • Citing Hengstenberg, John A. Lees, in International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, states: "The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the pre-incarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the 'child' and the archangel in Rev 12:1-17, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel."[11] Charles Haddon Spurgeon[52][53] stated that Jesus is Michael “the only Archangel”,[54] and that he is God the Son, and co-equal to the Father.[52] In SpurgeonÂ’s view, "archangel" means "head of the angels" rather than "head angel," and is a title similar to "Leader of the host." (Daniel 8:11)[55][56][not in citation given]
  • Within Anglicanism, the controversial bishop Robert Clayton (died 1758) proposed that Michael was the Logos and Gabriel the Holy Spirit.[57]Controversy over Clayton's views led the government to order his prosecution, but he died before his scheduled examination.[58][59]
 . . .
Seventh-day Adventists[edit]
170px-Le_Grand_Saint_Michel%2C_by_Raffae
 
Le Grand Saint Michel, by Raphael (Raffaello Sanzio), Archangel Michael defeating evil
  • Seventh-day Adventists, being of the Protestant heritage, lineage and faith, believe that Michael is another name for the eternal Son of the Father, the Heavenly Christ, and another name for the Word-of-God (as in John 1) before he became incarnate as Jesus. "Archangel" (meaning "Chief of the Angels", "highest messenger") was the leadership position as held by the Word-of-God as Michael while among the angels. According to Adventist theology, Michael was considered the "eternal Word", and not a created being or created angel, and the one by whom all things were created. The Word was then born incarnate as Jesus.[60]
  • Seventh-day Adventists believe the name "Michael" is significant in showing who he is, just as "Immanuel" (which means "God with us") is about who Jesus is. They believe that name "Michael" signifies "one who is God" and that as the "Archangel" or "chief or head of the angels" he led the angels and thus the statement in Revelation 12:7-9 identifies Jesus as Michael.[61]
  • Seventh-day Adventists believe that "Michael" is but one of the many titles applied to the Son of God, the second person of the Godhead. According to Adventists, such a view does not in any way conflict with the belief in his full deity and eternal preexistence, nor does it in the least disparage his person and work.[62] In support of the Seventh-day Adventist belief, Michael is also identified by them as being the very commander of Heavenly legions of the hosts of the LORD, God's invincible army, which helped Joshua son of Nun to lead Israel in to conquering Jericho [Joshua 5:14 - "And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant?"]
  • In the Seventh-day Adventist view, the statement in some translations of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" identifies Jesus as Archangel, which is Michael.[63] (Other translations have "For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.")[64]And the Seventh-day Adventists believe that John 5:25-29 also confirms that Jesus and Michael are the same.[63]

 

  1. 11 ^ John A. Lees, "Michael" in James Orr (editor), ''The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia''(Eerdmans 1939)". Internationalstandardbible.com. 2007-07-06. Retrieved 2012-12-27.
  2. 52 ^ Jump up to:a b The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689) - With slight revisions by C. H. Spurgeon Archived 2010-04-07 at the Wayback Machine. - spurgeon.org - Phillip R. Johnson - 2001 - Retrieved 12 September 2014.
  3. Jump up53 ^ Morning and Evening - Charles Haddon Spurgeon - Devotionals by Spurgeon Sermons - Spurgeon Sermons with C.H. Spurgeon - Retrieved 12 September 2014.
  4. Jump up54 ^ The Angelic Life - Charles Haddon Spurgeon - Sermon No. 842.
  5. Jump up55 ^ Grace Abounding in a Believer's Life by Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Robert Hall and Lance Wubbels 1996 ISBN 1883002095 page 54
  6. Jump up56 ^ Weapon The Blood of the Lamb, the Conquering Weapon - Charles Haddon Spurgeon - Sermon No. 2043.
  7. Jump up57 ^ Robert Clayton, An Essay on Spirit 1751
  8. Jump up58 ^ Dictionary of National Biography: Clayton, Robert
  9. Jump up. . .
  10. Jump up60 ^ Seventh Day Adventists: What do they believe? by Val Waldeck Pilgrim Publications (April 5, 2005) page 16
  11. Jump up61 ^ "The Remnant". Adventist World. Archived from the original on 2012-07-24. Retrieved 2011-12-05.
  12. Jump up62 ^ Seventh-day Adventists Answer Questions on Doctrine, Review and Herald Publishing Association, Washington, D.C., 1957. Chapter 8 "Christ, and Michael the Archangel".
    1. 63 ^ Jump up to:a b Bible readings for the home by 7th Day Adventists. London. 1949. p. 266.

[if you get blue arrow icons over some of the references, just select/highlight and they will be easy to read, or go to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_(archangel) ]

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With reference to the references, note the difficulty that Spurgeon had in reconciling Trinity with a created Michael, even though he had referred to Jesus as Michael several times:

https://scripturethoughts.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/the-identities-of-jesus-and-the-arch-angel-michael/

Charles Spurgeon moved away from his Baptist roots towards something akin to Second Adventist eschatology. (Baptists were more flexible in doctrine in the 1800's and claimed to be non-denominational, so he didn't actually leave the Baptist church.) Second Adventists, especially those who became Seventh Day Adventists, were usually happy to consider him supportive of their beliefs as he was held in high esteem by so many. He developed a post-Millerite preterist eschatology from some of the same sources that Barbour had used. From what I remember, the early Watch Tower issues under Russell quoted from him several times with the deepest respect, except when the topic was eternal suffering (hellfire).

 

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1 hour ago, Malum Intellectus said:

However, in the 19 century, the Bible students were framing this question with specific notations as, how to understand the symbolism of Michael as an authority figure. The intent of the ancients then lies with this symbolism that the Watchtower accepts.

It would be interesting to note, the extent by which some millerites thought as well as some Advents in support of Miller's movement. Even though some of those Advents like Barbour, Storr, and others that quite couldn’t agree with Miller, did find themselves seeking, further, answer in which they found Russell as eager to learn scripture wholeheartedly, then, what they had been taught.

The transformation from Advents to Seventh-day Adventist became a concern to the Miller movement since their value in doctrine was now being question by their own. This didn’t sway Russell to conclude his teachings by either party. This is quite evident by Russell, overall view of scripture.

However, in the end, Barbour, Storr, and others returned to their original understanding of Adventism that Russell was unable to agree with. This became evident too.

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With reference to reference #11 from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915 edition is in Google Books. 1933 edition link, below.), the subject is developed here, with hints as to the reasoning already available in apocryphal writings, where Ascension of Isaiah, for example had referred to him as "mediator" and "intercessor":

(11) "The archangel" (Jude 1:9). Probably also the unnamed archangel of 1Th 4:16is Michael. In the Old Testament he is mentioned by name only in Daniel. He is "one of the chief princes" (Da 10:13), the "prince" of Israel (Da 10:21), "the great prince" (Da 12:1); perhaps also "the prince of the host" (Da 8:11). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. In the uncanonical apocalyptic writings, however, Jewish angelology is further developed. In them Michael frequently appears and excretes functions similar to those which are ascribed to him in Daniel. He is the first of the "four presences that stand before God"--Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel or Phanuel (En 9:1; 40:9). In other apocryphal books and even elsewhere in En, the number of archangels is given as 7 (En 20:1-7; Tobit 12:15; compare also Re 8:2). Among the many characterizations of Michael the following may be noted: He is "the merciful and long-suffering" (En 40:9; 68:2,3), "the mediator and intercessor" (Ascension of Isaiah, Latin version 9:23; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Le 5:1-19; Da 6:1-28). It is he who opposed the Devil in a dispute concerning Moses' body (Jude 1:9). This passage, according to most modern authorities, is derived from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses (see Charles' edition, 105-10). It is Michael also who leads the angelic armies in the war in heaven against "the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan" (Re 12:7 ff). According to Charles, the supplanting of the "child" by the archangel is an indication of the Jewish origin of this part of the book.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in Re 12:1-17, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn's BD).

I would have added that Jesus is referred to as "Prince," in Prophecy (Isaiah 9:6), Parable (Luke 19:11-13) and in Narrative (Acts 3:15) and using the same Greek word, Satan is called the "Prince" of this world, who is to be cast out (John 16:11, Revelation 12:1-12).

The mention of "Fairbairn's BD" is Patrick Fairbairn's 6 -Volume Bible Dictionary. The Bible Encyclopedia, above, forgets to tell us where in the volumes this is, however. Probably under the entry for "Michael." I think that Fairbairn, if consistent, probably held the view he expressed in 1859 in "Introduction to the Exegetical Study of Scriptures in the New Testament," p. 233-236 where he says that all these evidences of the previous 3 pages "confirm the identification of Michael with Christ." (p.236)

content?id=Go4XAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA236&img=1&z

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10 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

** w10 4/1 p. 19 Is Jesus the Archangel Michael? ***

 

10 hours ago, Malum Intellectus said:

So Michael the archangel is Jesus in his prehuman existence.

WT have interesting answer, statement on question. Interesting? YES, because John 1:1 gave INFORMATION that Jesus is/was WORD ( "Word" as name or as title or both?) in his prehuman existence --- NOT MICHAEL The archangel :)))).

WORD have Ultimate status that is much, much higher then just of angel, even archangel status is. Or does some of you think that archangel was somehow participated in creation of life and all that existing, as Word did? 

If WT said Jesus is Michael, why i have never hear or read that WT said Word is Michael???

Who was in the beginning?? Michael or Word? According to this Bible text of course. 

Surely John would named Him (Word , God or god with The or A, what ever you like) as Michael if he was been under inspiration of holy ghost, spirit while he was writing verses.

One answer is wrong. Or both are wrong? :))))  

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