Is Point “A” REALLY point “A”?

[Patiently waiting for Truth]

11 hours ago, Arauna said:

We were taught that in the creation book - so for once you seem to agree with the GB!

I agree with the Scriptures that are inspired by YHWH. If your GB agree that is of no businss of mine. 

[Srecko Sostar]

50 minutes ago, WalterPrescott said:

G-d controls everything in the universe. <><

God’s sovereignty means that God is in charge of everything that happens in His universe. In Isaiah 45:6, God says, “There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other.”

I don't understand what kind of control you attribute to God. Does he control how many angels Satan will draw to his side? If God controls this kind of activity then it is questionable whether all angels have the freedom to accept or reject Satan as their leader instead of God.
It's the same with people. Does God control how many people will reject God and how many will accept Him. You are talking about an absurd idea, about a God who controls ... something or everything, sometimes or always??
Does God cares about this kind of control you put in? If this were important to him, then he would not be tired of WTJWorg's theological explanation, which actually says that God "does not control" the universe and people, because he has in mind the so-called "universal issue".

The theology of "universal issue" devalues the idea of a God who controls everything. Or is this some kind of controlled chaos here on earth and in all universe?

[Srecko Sostar]

8 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

What does that have to do with the universe versus free will?

 

9 hours ago, Srecko Sostar said:

  10 hours ago, WalterPrescott said:

G-d controls everything in the universe. <><

If someone has free will to decide, then God has no control over him. If God has no control over only one person then God does not control the whole universe. 

If that one or hundred persons decides to cut down the whole forest in the Amazon, then God cannot control that process, because that process is taking place before our eyes. If someone decides to travel to Mars and leave tons of waste from Earth there, how will God control it?

[Arauna]

47 minutes ago, Srecko Sostar said:

has free will to decide, then God has no control over him.

We are created in the image of Jehovah - with free will.  God is not a dictator and did not create us to be robots.  He wants our worship and devotion by our OWN FREE WILL!!!   This is why we should educate ourselves about the goodness of God, his qualities - so that we serve him our of loyal  love and gratitude not by coercion.

This is the kind of stuff human governments do - they rule with fear and coercion.

Jehovah is in control of the final outcome - he is not a micro-manager... managing every little action of humans in between. With his final actions he will stamp out all wickedness - that is assured.     He has set a time for Satan to carry on with his minions here on earth and ruin near space around the earth and the earth itself.... only up to a point.  He is allowing them to prove the universal issue - if they can govern the earth better then He can....... It will turn out to be a miserable failure as He already foresaw in prophecy!

Then he will step in an control Satan by putting him in an abyss and destroying the  wicked. 

[John 12.24to28]

 

The "heaven universe" and the "physical universe" are not far apart.

 

"And he made out of one man every nation of men to dwell on the entire surface of the earth, and he decreed the appointed times and the set limits of where men would dwell,  so that they would seek God, if they might grope for him and really find him, although, in fact, he is not far off from each one of us.  For by him we have life and move and exist, even as some of your own poets have said, ‘For we are also his children."

 

(Acts 17:26-28)

 

The concept of "Distance" works differently in the "heaven universe" but Time flows the same in both - there is no "going back in time".

 

"He then said to me: “Do not be afraid, O Daniel. Your words have been heard from the first day that you gave your heart to understanding and to humbling yourself before your God, and I have come because of your words.  But the prince of the royal realm of Persia stood in opposition to me for 21 days. But then Miʹcha·el, one of the foremost princes, came to help me; and I remained there beside the kings of Persia.  I have come to make you understand what will befall your people in the final part of the days, because it is a vision yet for the days to come.”

 

(Daniel 10:12-14)

 

When Paul talked about "the third heaven" he wasn't talking about the heavens where the spirit creatures live. Paul was using the word "heaven" in the same way Isaiah and Peter did, to describe governments or authorities. 

 

Jehovah said through Isaiah: "For look! I am creating new heavens and a new earth; And the former things will not be called to mind, Nor will they come up into the heart."

 

"Heavens" meant governments on earth.

 

Peter said: "Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion,  as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat!  But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell." 

 

"Heavens" meant governments on earth.

 

Paul said: "I have to boast. It is not beneficial, but I will move on to supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord.  I know a man in union with Christ who, 14 years ago—whether in the body or out of the body, I do not know; God knows—was caught away to the third heaven.  Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know; God knows—  who was caught away into paradise and heard words that cannot be spoken and that are not lawful for a man to say."

 

"The third heaven" means third government on earth.

 

The "first heaven" or government-group that was destroyed was the governing authorities on earth during the pre-Flood days. The "second heaven" or government-group that will be destroyed will be all the ones in power now in the world. They will be destroyed at Armageddon. 

 

"...long ago there were heavens and an earth standing firmly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God;  and that by those means the world of that time suffered destruction when it was flooded with water.  But by the same word the heavens and the earth that now exist are reserved for fire and are being kept until the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly people"

 

The "third heaven" is the kingdom government arrangement. It is not ruling yet, but when it rules during the millennium people on earth will see those in the government because the 144,000 will be able to go back and forth between heaven and earth easily, and the angels too - there will be no demon interference since Satan and his cronies will be locked in the abyss. Many things that are "off limits" now for spirit creature and human interaction will be allowed when Satan isn't around to abuse such things. Paul said he was "caught away in to paradise" when he saw the third heaven, or government. Paradise is on earth. The third heaven is on earth.

 

Heaven and earth are close enough for love to flow from Jehovah Himself into the hearts of those who love Him. They say life is in the blood. Love is like a spirit version of blood. It comes from Jehovah Himself. When we have love we are connected with Him, it connects us to heaven even though we are on earth. Heaven is not far away. It's closer than you would think. 

 

(Isaiah 65:17; 2 Peter 3:11-13; 2 Corinthians 12:1-4; 2 Peter 3:5-7)

[Pudgy]

I disagree…. I think for a  god to ALWAYS have existed and always will exist physics must be dramatically different “on the other side of the Big Bang”, the dimension conventially referred to as “Heaven”, and there, there cannot be entropy, and time “happens all at once”

This, our Universe of matter and energy, has an “arrow of time”.

Heaven, where lives Jehovah, an EVERLASTING God, by definition would not have entropy, or linear time, or the same laws of thermodynamics we have here.

[John 12.24to28]

On 5/1/2022 at 12:46 AM, Pudgy said:

Is Point “A” REALLY point “A”? 
 

Where is Angel Bob, when he is on “Point A”?

 

 

 

"He does great and unsearchable things, 

Wonderful things that cannot be counted.  

He passes by me, and I cannot see him; 

He moves past me, but I do not discern him."

 

(Job 9:10,11)

 

Heaven is right in front of us. We just can't see it because we're blind right now.

 

"Who is blind except my servant, 

So deaf as the messenger I send?  

Who is so blind as the one rewarded, 

So blind as the servant of Jehovah?"

 

(Isaiah 42:19)

 

1 minute ago, Pudgy said:

I disagree…. I think for a  god to ALWAYS have existed and always will exist physics must be dramatically different “on the other side of the Big Bang”, the dimension conventially referred to as “Heaven”, and there, there cannot be entropy, and time “happens all at once”

This, our Universe of matter and energy, has an “arrow of time”.

Heaven, where lives Jehovah, an EVERLASTING God, by definition would not have entropy, or linear time, or the same laws of thermodynamics we have here.

 

Jehovah is outside of Heaven in that aspect, of Time...

 

"Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, cannot contain you..." (1 Kings 8:27)

 

@Pudgy , the spirit creatures who live in heaven are affected by whatever laws Jehovah chose to put in place there. Jesus said he had a beginning as a spirit creature, which implies being placed in the stream of Time in heaven. We have not been to heaven, no scientist author has been to heaven, so their theories are just guesses based on their math calculations. Jesus has been there. He's really old. When he described the heavens, he alluded to Time affecting the spirit creatures there.

 

Jehovah Himself is outside of Time, having created it, but He can place Himself in Time if He Chooses. Illustratively, a computer programmer can make software or a program for a forum, and then He can make a profile for himself and place himself via the profile into the forum. He is still bigger than the forum, but can take part in it in real time.

 

[Pudgy]

If he wanted to, God could turn himself into a cat. 

Kurt Vonnegut inserted himself into one of his novels, “Breakfast of Champions”, while the main character was sitting at a bar, and told him he was only a character he was writing about… and had to take him to the center of the Sun and back to convince him.

 

 

[John 12.24to28]

We are all in some ways like a character in a holodeck simulation. Jehovah is the only one who is really Real because He is Permanent and Has Always Been and Always Will Be. He is the Reality. We are all just images of Him.

 

Jehovah can make a puppet out of anything He wants. He could use a cat. He used a donkey once. If a human can make a puppet, how much more so can Jehovah if He chooses?

 

As regards the heavens, artists like to draw magnificent illustrations based on some of the visions in the Bible with stars and vast open spaces. There are other verses, though, that give insight into other aspects of heaven.

 

"For this is what the High and Lofty One says, 

Who lives forever and whose name is holy:  

“I reside in the high and holy place, 

But also with those crushed and lowly in spirit, 

To revive the spirit of the lowly 

And to revive the heart of those being crushed."

 

(Isaiah 57:15)

 

There are universes above our heads and there are universes below our feet. Most people think of the universe of stars, but they forget about the universes in a drop of water or the universes of subatomic particles in an atom. Each type of "universe" teaches us something about Jehovah and heaven.

 

The spirit heaven is not physical. It cannot be comprehended physically. It is comprehended spiritually.

 

If you want to know about astronomy, you ask an astrophysicist. 

 

If you want to know about oceanography, you ask an oceanographer.

 

If you want to know about heaven, you ask a kid.

 

"So calling a young child to him, he stood him in their midst and said: “Truly I say to you, unless you turn around and become as young children, you will by no means enter into the Kingdom of the heavens."

 

(Matthew 18:2,3)

 

Those who lord it over others in the organization make grand presentations as if the heavens are far away and cold and have a lot of glassy thrones. They got that from one part of one vision, but they left out the more important things.

 

Love, joy, peace, goodness, kindness...etc, etc, etc.

 

Heaven is not cold or far away. It is not a physical place, it cannot be comprehended physically. It is comprehended spiritually. Jesus said a kid could understand the kingdom of the heavens. Kids are closer to the ground than adults. The stars are made of dust, true, but so is the clay beneath our feet. Heaven is not far away. It is a different realm, but it is not far away. Jehovah said He is High and Lofty but He also resides with the lowly. Why did Jehovah make us out of dirt? Where did the dirt come from? Jehovah made the dirt. It came from Jehovah. It came out of Jehovah. Jehovah is in heaven, but the dirt came out of heaven. Not just the dirt the stars are made of, but also the dirt beneath our feet, and the dirt our body is made of.

 

Heaven - it's not far away. Jehovah is not far away. Heaven is the same place love comes from. It is not light-years away. When you have love or feel love, it is because Jehovah is near. Heaven is near.

[Pudgy]

Uh …. OK.

[John 12.24to28]

James, think of this verse...

 

"Remain in union with me, and I will remain in union with you.

Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it remains in the vine, neither can you unless you remain in union with me.  

I am the vine; you are the branches.

Whoever remains in union with me and I in union with him, this one bears much fruit; for apart from me you can do nothing at all."

 

Jesus is not on earth. He is in heaven. How would it be possible for him to be in union with us if heaven was far away?

 

(John 15:4,5)

 

If you cut a branch off a tree and put it in another state or county or city, it won't grow. It has to be close to the tree. Not just close, but completely connected.

 

It's not "science" that can figure out the interface between heaven and earth. It's love. Love is the interface.

 

(That's why those other guys at headquarters haven't figured it out yet.)

[John 12.24to28]

 

When Jehovah said "my ways are higher than your ways" He wasn't talking about higher math.

 

Jesus told us what "higher ways" meant:

 

"You know that the rulers of the nations lord it over them and the great men wield authority over them. This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave. Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister..."

 

"...the greatest one among you must be your minister."

 

"You know that those who appear to be ruling the nations lord it over them and their great ones wield authority over them.  This must not be the way among you; but whoever wants to become great among you must be your minister,  and whoever wants to be first among you must be the slave of all.  For even the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister..."

 

"the angels...spirits for holy service, sent out to minister..."

 

Jehovah's "higher ways" are to become lower. To become lowly and minister.

 

Heaven is higher than earth in that the spirit creatures there are have higher love, that motivates them to come so close in order to minister to us. Their love is so high that they choose to come low. Like a loving parent bows low to care for their infant. That is higher love. That is what heaven is like. It's near. When we are little in our own eyes, then we can see it better. That's why Jesus said what he did about thinking like a child. We don't have to think fancy to understand heaven. We have to view Jehovah as our Dad, and then we can get it. It's like, He's right in the room with us. You can picture Him, as if He looks like Jesus did. Hanging out right in the room with you. Heaven isn't far away.