Shiwiii

Interesting. The opposite is no number. In Galatians chapter 4 starting at verse 21, we are told of Abraham's two sets of children. Children of the free woman (Sarah) and children of the bondwoman (Hagar). Specifically telling the reader that these two groups belong to two different camps, one from Jerusalem on Earth and the other from the Jerusalem from above. The Jerusalem from above are those who belong to the freewoman. Verse 27 quotes the OT Isiah 54:1 in which speaks of how the children of the barren woman (Sarah) will outnumber those of the "wife" (Hagar). So how does this line up with the 144k or does it? It can't. The reason why I say it can't, is because those of earthly Jerusalem (even at the time of the writing) were already greater than 144k. So then these from the Jerusalem from above must be greater than 144k, so those who belong to the Jerusalem from above cannot be one and the same as the 144k mentioned in Revelation. Revelation 21 talks also of this new Jerusalem coming from above and coming down to earth. If you look into all of the places where a new Jerusalem is written about you will not find ANY mention of 144k or any other definite number belonging to it, but rather a number greater than those of Jerusalem from the Earth, which leaves almost an open ended count. I don't disagree with your position on the already 3000 chosen, nor the "more firstfruits", I just do not see how this description in Galatians can be dismissed and replaced by the 144k mentioned in Revelation.

So is this a number? Is it 144k? The reason why I ask is I don't see anywhere where in scripture where a number is correlated to this group. I see just the opposite actually.

We agree that the new heaven and the new earth will be redeemed, weather that is by means of restoration or by replacement, none the less redeemed. I was just curious if you thought that the two would become one in a sense. Once God's dwelling place is with men, is that the combination, or do you feel that there will still be a separation between heaven and earth? This Heavenly Jerusalem consists of those called/chosen, do you subscribe to the same views as the jws on this? That this consists of only a select number of folks, say the 144k? This kind of addresses my first question in this response. Both groups become one under this Spiritual house, but is there still a separation of sorts? now that's funny. Sort of reminds me of Allen Smith.

In your opinion is this "God's Kingdom" ? I mean the new heaven and the new earth? Logically speaking, I would say yes it is. However what I mean is, God's kingdom will and does consist of everything He has made, but more specifically will heaven and earth be a combination?

This new wt sure looks like a "letter of solicitation" according to the definition. I wonder if this is the reason why the publication has been suspended (no more printed books and such). Is this a way the wt can still be correct according to their own statement????

God’s Kingdom Rules! pages 195 & 196 Chapter 18: How Kingdom Activities Are Financed “It Will Never Beg nor Petition Men for Support” 7 Brother Russell and his associates refused to imitate the money-raising schemes so common in the churches of Christendom. In the second issue of the Watch Tower, under the heading “Do You Want ‘Zion’s Watch Tower’?” Russell stated: “‘Zion’s Watch Tower’ has, we believe, JEHOVAH for its backer, and while this is the case it will never beg nor petition men for support. When He who says: ‘All the gold and silver of the mountains are mine,’ fails to provide necessary funds, we will understand it to be time to suspend the publication.” (Hag. 2:7-9) Over 130 years later, The Watchtower and the organization that publishes it are still going strong! 8 Jehovah’s people do not beg for money. They do not pass collection plates or send out letters of solicitation. Neither do they use bingo, bazaars, or raffles to raise money. They hold to what the Watch Tower long ago said: “We have never considered it proper to solicit money for the Lord’s cause, after the common custom . . . It is our judgment that money raised by the various begging devices in the name of our Lord is offensive, unacceptable to him, and does not bring his blessing either upon the givers or the work accomplished.” [Footnote: The Watch Tower, August 1, 1899, page 201.]

The back cover of Nov 2018 wt magazine has a full page asking "What gift can you give to Jehovah?" There are a few ways to give your "gift" and are explained. Using your web browser or jw library app, you can set up recurring donations. How is this not equivalent to passing the plate?

In Galatians we read that in Ch 3 verse 29, those who belong to Christ are heirs according to promise. They are Abraham's descendants. So what about them? where do they belong? Heaven or Earth? Who belongs to Christ?

When you come out with a statement clearly showing you can't understand why child abuse " is such a thorny matter.", it sets the tone of the remainder of your opinion.

Here lies the problem of the matter. The people who don't see why it is an issue that children are abused. Thanks for telling us your position on the matter.

who then is the meek?

Sure could be. I would agree, and it wouldn't matter much if it were literal or figurative, it is still "new" Yes, we could. Again I would agree and it would matter not if it were literal or figurative. No problem here with me either. I do not think that it HAS to be new vs restored. What part I do take literal is the part of "New Jerusalem" coming down from Heaven. Just like you mention in 2 Corinthians. Which is also mentioned in Galatians 4:21-31. The account in Galatians is much more specific though as to whom is part of this "New Jerusalem" and the account in Revelation 21 ties in perfectly with our topic of discussion here.

We are seeing more and more of this type of behavior both in and out of religious organizations. It is truly sad that there are people(animals) out there who prey upon children. What makes it even worse is those who turn a blind eye to it all. I'm sure some turn away because of fear, fear that they might be next or fear from their own past trauma. There are some who turn away based on what they are told they should do. I cannot see any reason why anyone would think that YHWH would approve of not seeking justice and prevention of this continuing. We are to govern our civilizations and from the top to the bottom we ALL are responsible to govern. We govern our own house first, it trickles upward to our schools then our community, state, country. What was done to those people who did this in the 1600's? (Yes, I am aware that marriage was done at a much younger age for women/girls back then.) If they were caught abusing children, most likely that was the last time they did that and probably the last time they did anything. I don't see it as wrong to eliminate these types of people, as well as those who allow this to happen over and over by not bringing it to light, from civilization, for obviously they are not civil.

Matt 5:18 - how is this any support for meek on Earth? I mean Jesus was speaking about what was to come and what would not pass away (the LAW). He was the fulfillment of the LAW as He died without sin. Sure, Jesus said the "meek shall inherit the Earth", I think we see this a bit different and I'll explain once I respond to Revelation 21:1. Matt 5:34/35 - This section of scripture is speaking of taking an Oath, swearing on your momma's grave, etc. It has nothing to do with meek inheriting the Earth. Matt 6:10 - A section of the Lord's prayer is supporting people on Earth vs people in Heaven? I cannot see that in this scripture. The only correlation is that the word "Earth" is used. Acts 3:25 - This is speaking of what God said to Abraham, not a future fulfillment. It was reassuring Abraham that his children and theirs would be looked after by God. Acts 17:25/26 - Paul was explaining who God is and what God has done, again not a prophetic statement. Ephesians 1:9/10, Colossians 1:20 - Interesting scriptures to use, as they tie in nicely with Revelation 21 as well. to be expounded upon at the end of my response. Hebrews 2:5 - I suspect you are holding to the "inhabited world to come" portion of this scripture. I agree, to an extent and will address this in my response to Revelation 21. 2 Peter 3:13 - New heaven and New Earth.....see revelation 21 response Revelation 5:10, Revelation 11:18 and Revelation 21:1 -- Ok, here is where I can give you my perspective on most of this. We may disagree, but it is up to us to explain using scripture our position. Revelation 5:10 is speaking of who will rule and reign and over what. Men from every tribe, nation and language who have been saved by the Blood of Christ are going to reign over the Earth. Further in Revelation, where you cited ch 11:18, it speaks of those who are ruining the Earth and that God will ruin them. I'm with you here. Now which Earth are we talking about here? The New Earth or the Old one? Because they are not one in the same. Revelation 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Here we have scripture stating that the old Earth is gone, dead, passed away. Could this be a restoration of the Earth, sure, but never the less the previous Earth is no more. This is "NEW" Earth. Does scripture tell us which Earth the meek shall inherit? nope, but I suspect it IS this new Earth. We kind of agree here I think. 2 Peter 3:13 talking about this new Heaven and new Earth and Hebrews 2:5, I believe is speaking of this new Earth that is to come as well. Men will be on the Earth, no doubt. They will be governed by those that God selects. Now I want to explain my view on Ephesians 1:9&10 and Colossians 1:20. These two sections of scripture talk about a joining together or reconciliation of all the things in Heaven and on Earth to Christ. While Christ alone can do this however He wishes, we are told of another reconciliation which would fit this role as well, but it come much later then the harvest. It comes when the new Heaven and the new Earth come into play. Revelation 21: 2&3 tells us that a new Jerusalem will come down from Heaven and reside on the New Earth and thus God's dwelling place will be with man. This reconciles all things that are in Heaven and all things that are on Earth, to God. He will be among men on the new Earth. So Heaven will come down to Earth.

apparently not, and I think it comes down to the scriptures you used said nothing about what we were talking about. Nothing indicated the "door shut". That is why apparently I was not satisfied. I don't even think we're close to being on the same page here. Your point has nothing to do with what I asked.

I have started this thread for the discussion of the meek and the Earth, which has come out of the "will only the jws be saved" thread. I will be answering JWInsider and Space Merchant here on their positions and responses to me.

This will take me some time to respond to each scripture you have cited. But like I mentioned to Space, maybe we should start a new thread.

but you have failed in providing the scriptural evidence to back your claim that this selection or "door" is shut. Your opinion is fine, but without support, it is still just your opinion. It also matters not if others agree with your opinion, without scriptural support it is an opinion. actually you have not, well with scripture I mean. I suggest we start a separate thread on this, because it will be much longer then a few exchanges. Unless your mind is too boggled....)

fair enough. Thank you None of the scriptures you cited mention that the "door is shut". I asked you to show me from the Bible where this concept is stated, but you give me a reference to the sealing of Israel. Those scriptures mention nothing of the door being shut. Instead you give me your opinion, which is fine, but it still doesn't answer the question. You can have whatever view you'd like, but if you are going to claim the Bible says such, then you are going to have to prove it with the Bible. You and the jws believe this, but I'd like to know where you get this from out of the Bible. I know that the "meek shall inherit the Earth" scripture, but is there another scripture(s) you use to back up this idea?

Can you please show me where I used Jeff and his "team". In your view he is a false teacher, ok, so what? If I do not, then again, so what? This again smells of a long typed banter to distract from the topic. This really is getting tiresome Mr. Merchant. yes, direct IS what I'd prefer. Can you show me where the Bible states that this door has been shut? I think you just might want to reread some of what you have written in this and other threads. More than just me have this same opinion of your responses.

You YOURSELF have to realize the context of what I wrote concerning the "letter" that JW Insider has a copy of. What does that letter state? Here is a quote from JW Insider Who closed that door? Oh yeah, the wt, as stated in the letter. I quite agree. please refresh my memory, when did I quote/refer to this Jeff Durbin? I'm not saying I didn't, just want to make sure we are on the same page. How can you write so much but yet not address what I mentioned? If you are going to respond to my post, respond! I think, like another has posted, that you try and write so much that the real topic bets buried under your ramblings about nothing relevant to the topic discussion.

I agree with your statement here, but it is NOT the decision of any religious organization or any man as to when and who it shuts on. This is the part that stuck out in my mind and why it reminded me of that scripture. Think about the actual context of Chapter 23 of Matthew. Who was this chapter written about? Do we have "scribes" and "Pharisees" today?

Really? hmmm, ok....from someone who "likes" their own post to increase their status........ Please indulge me then with your expertise

Every time I hear of this "closing the door" from the WT it reminds me of Matthew 23:13 13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.