Shiwiii

hahaha WHAT? Do you really think this way? Don't you know you ARE suppose to question the teachings of men? These guys have already stated their position on being inspired by God, they're NOT. So it is important to question their teachings, unless of course you are a lemming. .

Who can forgive sins but God alone?

ok, I'm not @Witness, but I'll answer you from my perspective. NO, not an organization like we know it today. Not a man made organization, but rather a group of like minded people who fear God and follow what He instructs, not just based on the parts of the Bible they want, but all of it. One doesn't need to be formed, its already in place. It isn't labeled by anyone but Him. He knows who is chosen and who still need to come in. yup not like the wt teaches. Those who have died before us are with Him. To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. The earthly part is the part where in Revelation (ch 21) it talks about the throne of God coming down out of heaven and His dwelling will be with men here on Earth. Remember the part about the new Jerusalem coming down? Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. ... yup, see above by fellowship and observation. no, God will................... through them. You will know if God is behind it, because it will not waver nor will you have doubts about their actions or interpretations. Yes. Yes, we will be judged as individuals and it is only by the faith in Jesus and acceptance of His sacrifice for each and every one of us, will we be allowed into the Kingdom. United, yes but not in a man defined structure of an organization. We will serve God as individuals within the group. I can see what you are saying, but that isn't what the Bible tells us as to why. Doesn't the Bible tell us that the Gospel needs to be spread and then.... Matt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. There isn't a religion nor a "true" religion, it's a way of life.......God's way of life. These are all just my point of view based on what I know. If its wrong, well thank goodness that I try and keep my faith in Jesus and what He has done for me. He is the only way to the New Jerusalem.

agreed that is how it should work, right? So why then is it not this way? Classic definition of insanity.......just saying. These statements of yours have a taste of disdain, but yet in the same breath almost an acceptance as that's just how it is. If that is just how it is, who is going to " ... is vote with their wallets ........ and their feet." ?

oh, I did and agree that this video and the narrative do not match, but is what Gary said true or not?

how do you know? what signs tip you off to this?

Understandable given what they have caught with, but to use a known person who has advocated for the likes of Scientology? They really couldn't find anyone else? Or do you think they are doing this on purpose, actually wanting the guy who wrote for Scientology, so that maybe....just maybe, they won't look as bad as Scientology?

I see that from your post. What I don't get is do they really think that an outside person is going to be able to explain the wt position better then they can? They have lawyers on speed dial, no? Or do you think they have to outsource because the wt's lawyers can only handle personal cases ( witness against another person or the like) and not really so when it comes to another organization?

Why? Why the need to hire anyone? they've been defending themselves for a long time, so why now with an outside.....hired......source?

Not only this but John 1:3 states that Jesus is the creator. Nothing was made that has ever been made, was made without Jesus. exactly!

Hang on, so what you are saying is that you sin because Adam did? This is essentially what you are saying. You are not accountable for your sins, just Adam is and you think that Jesus is paying for what Adam did and not for what YOU have done. Think about that for a moment. Why in the world would Jesus' be equal to Adam? Jesus created Adam, thus cannot be equal. You DO think Jesus and Adam are equal. Ok, I guess you believe something completely outside of the Bible. I've given you scripture after scripture that shows that Jesus died for OUR sins, all of mankind who believe in Him. Everyone, All, etc. But you hold fast to this idea that is NOT found in scripture. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Jesus and Adam are equal in anyway, context tells us this. When people tell you over and over and over again, you start to believe what they are saying without looking for yourself. I hope that one day you find the true meaning of Jesus sacrifice. by the way, you never answered why God would have allowed animal sacrifices, in the OT, verses man for man and eye for eye when dealing with the nation of Israel. You skimmed it and decided to incorporate jw talk to tickle the ears of other jws.

agreed Then why did Jesus say that He died for the sins of MANY? Matt 20:26 specifically? The scriptures I quoted in my previous post shows that Jesus died for more then just Adam and that is what Jesus even said. So then the question is, Do you believe Jesus or the gb? please...gimmie a break. strawman much? so we are going round and round. You keep bringing up that eye for eye thing and that's supposedly how God does things....ok, lets look at something: Exodus 21:23 But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. This is where you are at? yes.....this is your, and the rest of jws, get your belief on Adam=Jesus. Why if this is "Gods way" and He has to have an equal payment/ransom, then why did God allow for Israel to sacrifice a ram/goat/bird etc. for the atonement for the nation of Israel over and over and over again in the OT? The reason is because it isn't Gods way to have an eye for an eye, etc. It was His rules for Israel and to show them that sins needed a covering. God hates sin and the penalty for sin is death. Did He kill people in the OT for sins? Sometimes He did, but He had a plan already in place to atone for the sins of all of mankind, Jesus death. Jesus died for the sins of many, not just Adam. Jesus said so and I believe He said it to correct the belief of eye for eye. Just read again Matt 20 and listen to what Jesus said. He said He was the ransom for many and gave an illustration of paying wages to men who worked. Some worked longer then others but all received the same pay and when they began to grumble, He pointed out that the payment was made upon agreement, and that generosity was given to those who do not deserve it. Jesus goes on to say that same thing but by means of His ransom. We do not deserve to be let off the hook for our sins, it is by our faith in Jesus we get to......all who call upon the name of the Lord, Jesus. 2 Corinthians 5: 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. 18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has]committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. again, here it is stated that Jesus died for many, not just one. If we believe that Jesus died for Adam's sin and not because of our own sin, then we have missed the whole point of Jesus sacrifice. Jesus died to reconcile us to God. This is what is being said in 2 Cor 5. We cannot blame Adam for our sins, our sins are ours and it is only by faith in Jesus do they get forgiven by the sacrifice He paid for each and every one of us who believe. I do not align with an organization, I align with people who read the Bible and understand it as I do. I am not THE expert on the Bible, but I know some who are and even they are sinners. You forgot to add to Hebrews 2 verse 9 9 But we do see Him who was made for a little while lower than the angels, namely, Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.

1 John 2:2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Matt 20:24 And hearing this, the ten became indignant with the two brothers. 25 But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. 26 It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, 27 and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many.

Hebrews 9:27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, 28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Again, These scriptures clearly state the value of Jesus' sacrifice is much greater then that of Adam.

Good! more light....new light, old light, ANY light needs to be shone on this behavior and bring it out into the open. The practice of hiding abusers is wrong, and if any group thinks that they will not answer to God for it, good luck. People need to be informed about organizations that do this.

doesn't matter. Before, after, during.....never was Adam and Jesus equal I'd also like to add to the discussion, Isaiah 53. What does this chapter say about the Messiah? The last verse speaks about the whole chapter: Yet He Himself bore the sin of many,And interceded for the transgressors. This hardly sounds like an equivalent with Adam.

Its totally fine that we do not agree. I have not seen one scripture which backs your (and the rest of jws) claims Adam and Jesus were equal, not for a ransom, not for anything.

What Greek interlinear/Lexicon/ are you using? None of the ones I have cross referenced said anything about corresponding. Strong's, Thayer, Dodson, Liddell and Scott, Tyndale all say ransom and do not elude to a corresponding, or equal payment. yup I would argue "just a man in flesh", not quite. "just a man in flesh" does not do the things Jesus did. When was the last time YOU walked on water? Healed the Blind? Cast out demons....who know you by name....? Fed thousands with some small fish and some bread? Etc. Then why does scripture say Jesus paid the ransom for ALL? If it was just man for man, then why does it say for all? Because it is not equal for equal, it is Jesus for ALL. You, me and those down the street. agreed agreed disagree Adam NEVER had the position Jesus has always had.

Who said He wasn't similar to Adam? similar and equal are two very different things. Was Jesus a man while on Earth? Yep. Did He relinquish those attributes He held prior to coming to Earth when He came down? Nope.

again, context is key. The part in which you are referring to is explaining the nature of man and how Jesus needed to be fully man in order to have US reconcile Him to us and accept His offering as a sacrifice for mankind. This was not to satisfy God or some equality requirement but instead for US. Did you happen to notice in verse 14 were it states that He partook, or shared in the experience of mankind. This is voluntary and not because of limitations. Verse 16 speaks of Jesus being tempted, just as we are tempted, Why? Why would Jesus need to be tempted? So that we can come to Him, He can relate directly to our desires and our human thinking and help us. It is for this reason and many more that He is the WAY.

I disagree equality with Adam. Nothing in scripture states equality with Adam. Yes, but context is what prevails here. Scripture is not stating equality with Adam as a man, but rather as we received a sentence of death from the first Adam, we receive a sentence of life from Jesus; making Jesus an "Adam" in a sense of giving to all a sentence, similar to the first Adam.

Do you realize that the word "corresponding " is not in the ancient manuscripts and is inserted by men to meet an agenda? That agenda is to equate Jesus with Adam, just as you are doing. Adam and Jesus were not equals, never were and never will be. Jesus created Adam (John 1:3). Adam could not create anything but trouble for himself and his wife, lol. Weymouth New Testament 1 Timothy 2:6 (WNT) who gave Himself as the redemption price for all--a fact testified to at its own appointed time, The Webster Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (WBT) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Young's Literal Translation 1 Timothy 2:6 (YLT) who did give himself a ransom for all -- the testimony in its own times -- Wycliffe 1 Timothy 2:6 (WYC) that gave himself redemption for all men. Whose witnessing is confirmed in his times; World English Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (WEB) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times; Tyndale 1 Timothy 2:6 (TYN) which gave him silfe a raunsome for all men that it shuld be testified at his tyme Third Millennium Bible w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (TMBA) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, Revised Standard Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (RSV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. Third Millennium Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (TMB) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, Revised Standard Version w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (RSVA) who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time. SBL Greek New Testament 1 Timothy 2:6 (SBLG) ὁ δοὺς ἑαυτὸν ἀντίλυτρον ὑπὲρ πάντων, τὸ μαρτύριον καιροῖς ἰδίοις · Douay-Rheims Catholic Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (RHE) Who gave himself a redemption for all, a testimony in due times. New Revised Standard w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (NRSA) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time. Orthodox Jewish Bible Timotiyos I 2:6 (OJB) The one who gave his nefesh [YESHAYAH 53:10-12] as a kofer (ransom), on behalf of all. The edut (testimony) of this was given at the right time. New Century Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (NCV) He gave himself as a payment to free all people. He is proof that came at the right time. New Revised Standard 1 Timothy 2:6 (NRS) who gave himself a ransom for all —this was attested at the right time. Jubilee Bible 2000 1 Timothy 2:6 (JUB) who gave himself in ransom for all, the testimony of which <em>was confirmed</em> at the time, New Living Translation 1 Timothy 2:6 (NLT) He gave his life to purchase freedom for everyone. This is the message God gave to the world at just the right time. New King James Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (NKJV) who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time, New International Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (NIV) who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. New International Reader's Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (NIRV) He gave himself to pay for the sins of everyone. That was a witness given by God at just the right time. Lexham English Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (LEB) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time, New American Standard Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (NAS) who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time. The Message Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (MSG) who offered himself in exchange for everyone held captive by sin, to set them all free. Eventually the news is going to get out. Good News Translation 1 Timothy 2:6 (GNT) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, GOD'S WORD Translation 1 Timothy 2:6 (GW) He sacrificed himself for all people to free them from their sins. This message is valid for every era. King James Version w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (KJVA) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. King James Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (KJV) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Good News Translation w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (GNTA) who gave himself to redeem the whole human race. That was the proof at the right time that God wants everyone to be saved, Hebrew Names Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (HNV) who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times; The Darby Translation 1 Timothy 2:6 (DBY) who gave himself a ransom for all, the testimony [to be rendered] in its own times; English Standard Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. The Bible in Basic English 1 Timothy 2:6 (BBE) Who gave himself as an offering for all; witness of which was to be given at the right time; Common English Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (CEB) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time. Holman Christian Standard Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (CSB) who gave Himself-a ransom for all, a testimony at the proper time. The Complete Jewish Bible 1 Timothy 2:6 (CJB) who gave himself as a ransom on behalf of all, thus providing testimony to God's purpose at just the right time. Common English Bible w/ Apocrypha 1 Timothy 2:6 (CEBA) who gave himself as a payment to set all people free. This was a testimony that was given at the right time. American Standard Version 1 Timothy 2:6 (ASV) who gave himself a ransom for all; the testimony [to be borne] in its own times; All of these different versions of the Bible state that Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all, not a corresponding ransom. Nothing is stated as equality here in the verse. Also to note, in the Codex Sinaiticus the word used is G487 ἀντίλυτρον antilutron an-til'-oo-tron From G473 and G3083 ; a redemption price: - ransom. Nothing indicates an equal ransom. I'm not saying you can't believe that it does, but the facts show that it does not. No God did not create us to suffer and die, He created us to live in harmony with Him. It was our (Adam's) choice to disobey and we continue to do so to this day. This is why Jesus came to redeem us. God knew we would fall short, that is why the Bible tells us that we were chosen before the world began: Ephesians 1 1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: 2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. Also to note, have you noticed that the letters Paul wrote to the different cities all start kind of the same: Romans 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called as an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, Philippians 1:1 Paul and Timothy, bond-servants of Christ Jesus, Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, Why are Paul and Timothy not declaring that they are Jehovah's witnesses but rather stating that they are belonging to Jesus and are followers of Him. This is what they proudly proclaim in written form. Just an FYI.

you're right! this is because according to John 1:3 nothing was created without Jesus that was ever created. So YHWH was always existing. Glad we agree. yup unsubstantiated disagree, something perfect does not have a flaw nor does it gain a flaw, for then it is not perfect. give the word. I didn't finish reading the other post you had.....sorry I had to stop because it sounded like a cut and paste out of a wt. So many assumptions with NOTHING backing it.

This is disgusting! So if doctrine states that killing someone on the third Tuesday of the month is ok, then would this also be allowed as well? The good thing about this though is that it is a great witness as to the practices and policies within this organization, and those who are curious will see this and think long and hard if it truly is an organization being used by God. Would a loving God want child abuse covered up? Would a loving God want it hidden because men made up a doctrine to get away with it?

I take this as an agreement that you believe the scripture we were talking about was about Jesus. So you agree that all things came into existence through Jesus, but you do not agree with the rest of John 1:3 where it states that not one thing that was made (created) was made (created) without Jesus. Do I get this right? please support this with scripture. I've heard it before, but I'd like to see the support for this. Your scripture in Exodus was dealing with the Jews and how they should handle internal conflicts, not God and His plans. God can do anything, as you know, so what makes you or anyone think that God requires like for like? There isn't a scripture that states this that I remember. Also, just to note: if Adam and Eve were perfect, then why did they sin? Perfection does not have a flaw, sin is a flaw....albeit deep down and not shown...still a flaw.