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  3. You got me curious, since I honestly had never even skimmed this portion of COJ's book. I noticed in a footnote, on the same page you pointed to , about the famous eight-UK-clergymen December 1917 Manifesto, from their "prophets" conference, was actually in the WTS publications several times. *** nc pp. 20-21 pars. 36-37 When All Nations Collide, Head On, With God *** Dr. G. Campbell Morgan, Dr. F. B. Meyer, and six other well-known clergymen of England, issued a Manifesto, which was republished throughout the earth and which declared: 37 “(1) That the present crisis points toward the close of the times of the Gentiles. . . . (5) That all human schemes of reconstruction must be subsidiary to the second coming of our Lord, because all nations will then be subject to His rule. . . .”—Current Opinion, for February 1918. I had already seen this same referenced Manifesto about 10 times in different WTS publications. But I had never realized that this was not really about 1914, but was specifically about 1917. I hadn't noticed that the context in the WT about the 2520 years, really had nothing to do with this "Gentile Times" manifesto, because it was really more about the supposed fulfillment of the 1260 days of Revelation 11, which J.A.Brown had predicted 90 years earlier for 1917. (J.A.Brown never connected the 7 times, or 2,520 years, with the Gentile Times.) So I looked up the phrase "present crisis points toward the close of the times of the Gentiles" in Google. Mostly it came back with Watchtower Library and jw.org links. And I found a lot of links that showed other religions had used the same Manifesto to show that their prophets were just as good or better (Mormons) and other religions used it to show just how useless and irrelevant those predictions had already become. But the most curious use of the manifesto was from Rutherford, who used it as "proof" that the world noticed the "beginning of the end of the world" in the book "Millions Now Living Will Never Die" in 1920, page 40. Rutherford quoted from the Manifesto, and had only good things to say about these particular preachers. He called them honest and faithful and good, as compared to so many other clergymen: Even then, in 1920, it was rare to hear a good word about another preacher from Rutherford. But did he really think they were good, or did he change his mind about them? A TALE OF TWO FCC's [The Federal Communications Commission and the Federal Council of Churches] Well, I checked another link, this time to the FCC, the Federal Communications Commission, which printed the entire speech of Rutherford in 1926, here, page 339. The speech follows the same logic and context of the 1920 treatment, still pointing out the Zionist fulfillment of prophecy. But this time he points out that "these distinguished men have vehemently spoken against present truth and the Lord's kingdom." https://www.google.com/books/edition/Federal_Communications_Commission/UAwvAAAAMAAJ His big evidence is that a different group of clergymen, as represented in the Federal Council of Churches in 1919, had made a blasphemous statement about the League of Nations, hoping it represented a means to peace in the world: But, naturally, Rutherford doesn't admit that the Watchtower itself had offered the same optimistic idea about the same League of Nations, following some of the same wording of the FCC: One month after the statement of the FCC in January 1919, the February 15, 1919 Watchtower spoke in similar terms: “We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. For instance, it has been made plain by President Wilson and the advocates of his ideas that the proposed League of Nations is more than merely a league to enforce peace. They would not have us consider it to exclusively from the standpoint of politics or of military relations. It should be considered as fully from the economic and social points of view. The President’s idea seems to be that the League of Nations which he proposes would stand for world service rather than mere world regulation in the military sense, and that the very smallest of nations shall be participants in its every arrangement. In other words, his idea undoubtedly is that the league shall not be established merely for the purpose of promoting peace by threat or coercion; but that its purpose, when put into operation, will be to make all nations of earth one great family, working together for the common benefit in all the avenues of national life. Truly this is idealistic, and approximates in a small way that which God has foretold that he will bring about after this great time of trouble.” — Watch Tower, February 15, 1919, p.51 [Reprints page 6389].
  4. There seems to have been no change here for almost ten years, but rest assured, they will all be judged by God. To date, the account of the Destruction of Nineveh in 612 BC is not completely certain. An event occurred in 606 BC, and now another one places the destruction of Nineveh in 608 BC, following the destruction of Jerusalem in 629 BC. Chronology. "This places the fall of Nineveh after the destruction of Jerusalem and is in perfect accordance with our finding that the destruction of Jerusalem was in our B.C. 629 and that the fall of Nineveh could not be earlier than our B.C. 608" p.363
  5. Of course it appears that way to you Georgie … you and BTK cannot defend your fantasy constructs with what is demonstratively REAL.
  6. @BTK59 I believe Pudgy may have lost his composure and is now engaging in a self-debate, quite amusing!
  7. …. show me evidence 1.) Of THE Great Tribulation, as described in the Bible. 2.) Of Armageddon as described in the Bible. 3.) Of the Resurrection of the dead that is described in the Bible. You cannot. Conclusion : …. just look out the window …. WHAT YOU SEE IS WHAT YOU GOT!
  8. Understanding historical events involves delving into the past to gain insight into the present. A skilled researcher knows exactly where to find the necessary information, much like navigating by the stars. If the destruction of "Nineveh" occurred in 612 BC, what astronomical evidence supports this event? Then you have references to the destruction of Nineveh in 606 BC and the siege of Nineveh in 635 BC. Either we conduct our own research or acknowledge the flawed nature of JWI's research. It is not possible to have it both ways. You mean that was it; that we got them all? Or that this one (requoted above) is one that you also want moved? It's dated Sunday at ?:18 PM, but ? refers to a different time zone from the one I'm in, so I couldn't tell exactly. And the use of VPN's can throw off the time zone on the time stamp. I didn't move it before because it's on topic and it's not to BTK's question, but I'd still be happy to move it if you wish.
  9. I can PROVE MY VIEW OF REALITY simply by looking out the window. Go ahead … try it. Tell me what you see. That look like a Paradise Earth to you?
  10. NOTHING you wrote refutes my statements. You are grasping at straws.
  11. "Pudgy" should refer to this article regularly in an attempt to debunk it. Although he hasn't done so yet, there's always hope. lol! END OF WORLD IN 1914 Not the View of Pastor Russell nor of I. B. S. A. "The Earth Abideth Forever" Christ will not return to Earth as a Man Present Year Believed to Mark Great Change of Dispensation, but World May not discern Immediate Difference I am prompted in the selection of my text by reading an extract from the sermon of a Canadian minister delivered recently. In it he declared that 1914 would witness the Second Coming of Christ, etc. His statement allowed the inference that he holds the view common to nearly all the creeds; namely, that the earth is to be burned up and the human race blotted out; and that, incidentally, Christ will come a second time, to see that none of the Church are included in the destruction. MISTAKES OF DARK AGES BEING CORRECTED To my understanding, all such expectations are wholly unscriptural, untrue, misleading, and hindrances to a right understanding of the Bible. They belong to the Dark Ages, when public teachers seemed to lose all appreciation of poetic language, figurative language, mental imagery. They belong to the time when Christ's references to Gehenna Fire, which burned outside the walls of Jerusalem, were understood to mean an eternity of torture for all except the saintly few. They belong to the time when Jesus' words respecting the cutting off of the right hand and the plucking out of the right eye were misunderstood, and taken literally. St. Peter's words are generally urged to be the foundation for the theory that the world will be destroyed by literal fire at the Second Coming of Christ, when the heavens shall be on fire, and the earth also and the things therein shall be burned up (2 Peter 3:10), a literal interpretation here overlooks the fact that St. Peter, speaking of the very same time, in Acts 3:19-21, declares that Times of Restitution and blessing - not times of world-burning - will follow the Second Coming of Jesus. It also overlooks the fact that St. Peter and the other apostles, as well as the Master, frequently used the word fire in a symbolic sense, to represent tribulation. Thus St. Peter, addressing the Church, says: "Think it not strange concerning the fiery trial that shall try you." St. Paul says that the fire of that Day shall try the work of every man [the Church], of which sort it is. Those who have built with gold, silver, precious stones [the promises of God's Word], shall be fireproof in that Day; while those who have built with the wood, hay and stubble of tradition-Higher Criticism, Human Evolution, etc.,-will find their faith structure amenable to the fire; and they will suffer the loss of faith and have tribulations accordingly. Yet, the Apostle explains, such will themselves be saved, but these very fiery trials will destroy their misconceptions. They will be saved because, in spite of their errors, they built their faith upon Christ. -- 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. The Apostle, however, urged that all should build with gold, silver and precious stones-characteristics which would enable them to pass through the fire of that Day unscathed-"more than conquerors." Similarly, Jesus referred to a testing of faith, by the figure of a flood, telling that those who built upon the sand would suffer loss; but that those who built upon the Rock would be safe. All these Scriptures, however, these references to fiery trials, etc., belong to the end of the Age - not the end of the world. Nobody has yet unraveled the significance of Pastor Russell's anticipation of the "Great Day of Wrath" in 1904, which he subsequently expounded upon in 1912. Individuals need to release their ignorance regarding the diverse ways people communicated in the past. Holding onto such unawareness only serves to present those individuals in an unfavorable light. "Now, that time of trouble we believe will be in connection with the epiphania, at the time of the judgment of the world, or nations, or systems. There is more or less injustice and iniquity in all our arrangements of society, political, financial or ecclesiastical, and more or less that is right, and more or less that is wrong. When that time of trouble comes, the people will recognize it, and then the Scriptures say they will be calling upon the rocks and mountains to fall upon them. That is not the real thought -- not to crush them, as if a mountain fell upon them, they would not know much about it, but the thought is, cover us, protect us, because of this great day of wrath. These rocks of society are the Free Mason rocks, the Odd Fellow rocks, this insurance society and that insurance society, and the people want to get into these rocks to protect them in this time of trouble, and they want to be identified with the strong governments, such as the United States, for they want to be protected. If they go to Europe, they want to say they have their passports from United States or from Great Britain, etc. So they will say, those great mountains will be my protection. That is the way these things are used in the Bible. Here rocks represent stone fortress. When the trouble breaks out they will begin to go into these things so they may be sheltered and protected, but the Scriptures say they will not be able, for it will be a time of trouble that nothing will be able to deliver from. In a world troubled by chaos, who were the ones to bring peace?
  12. Yesterday
  13. As I said, I'll be happy to move as many or as few as you like. Since you still haven't said which ones specifically, I'll move a few more and you can tell me if there are still others. I went back into the conversation for two weeks, but found that this particular subset of the topic only went back for one week. So I moved more of your conversation with BTK going back one week. The others that still remain here are too tightly integrated into the current conversation. I suppose you could always copy information you presented here and repost it over there under the new topic.
  14. At last, we can find common ground, pudgy, with your nonsensical and irrational posts. Why did it take you so long? lol!
  15. Simple! ZERO EVIDENCE The Great Tribulation NEVER happened. Armageddon NEVER happened. Out of 8 million JWs, 184 JWs die per day! God’s Kingdom is a future event. THE SENSELESS ONE IS YOU!
  16. Want to test that premise? Refute and reprove my enumerated points.
  17. Gibberish …. and “….Still waiting how astronomy is the link to all history and the word of God isn't. “ not even a pretense of rationality.
  18. Okay, thanks. I'll look it up. I hope that these posts will also be transferred.
  19. What is the purpose of this demonstration for the public? Is it acceptable to surround yourself with negative influences? Wouldn't it be more comprehensive to include the beginning of the article, rather than just selecting a specific section to cater to your skeptical perspective? You should emphasize, for instance, not associating with people who act and behave like Pharisees. The article's main focus is precisely that. Did the Pharisees truly possess God's truth? Why on earth would a Jehovah's Witness want to associate with someone who behaves in a way that goes against scripture?
  20. I believe that you will find it impossible to disprove the accuracy of the events, even under the most extreme circumstances. Your senseless words are often disregarded by others. lol!
  21. Your arguments are completely out on the farm, going through Booger’s Woods, dragging dead possums on a rope. They have NOTHING to do with anything I have EVER written. Or even care about! EVER! All the historical references you mention I have absolutely NO PROBLEM WITH … I will stipulate the hard historical facts you present are probably true ….. because …. they do nothing to prove that God’s Kingdom was established on Earth anywhere around 1914, and a war in Heaven that took years and cast about one-third of super powerfull life forms down to the Earth …. a multi-year battle between Jehovah God and Christ, and his Enemy and minions … … there is ZERO EVIDENCE. How do I know there is ZERO evidence? I can get up out of my chair, open the front door, walk to the street and stand on the sidewalk and with my own two eyes look around, and not see any! 1.) No evidence of a “Great Tribulation”. 2.) No evidence of Armageddon. 3.) No evidence that Jesus, after fighting a war where at least SOME galaxies would blow up …. or SOMETHING!….. now rules the Earth! None whatsoever! Why should I care one iota WHEN Jerusalem was destroyed? I don’t. EVERYONE who has cared has so far been wrong about its importance! Everybody who has ever lived. No exceptions! I can look out my window and SEE THAT! ”Still waiting how astronomy is the link to all history and the word of God isn't.” Hold your breath until you turn purple and fall over unconscious. I never said it was, and I never said the Word of God wasn’t. I do know what two system temporal benchmarks are, and you apparently don’t.
  22. JWI, thank you for your help. I was also talking about the other posts above. I want to show BTK where this comes from. Journal of the American Oriental Society vol. 44 "The events of the fourteenth year (612 B. C.) are described in fifteen lines of text, not one of which is complete. And it is on this year's annals that Gadd bases his main thesis for the new date of the fall of Nineveh. Many of the lines are badly broken, and the information we have is fragmentary. Even the number fourteen, specifying the year of Nabopolassar's reign, is missing in the chronicler's text." This is the basis for most scholars accepting the destruction of Nineveh in 612 BC. The translations by C.J. Gadd bear a striking resemblance to those found in D.J. Wiseman's Babylonian Chronicles, with a subtle deviation between the years 1924 and 1956.
  23. This is for the benefit of @Pudgy That depends largely on your understanding of the events leading up to 1914, the year 1914 itself, and the aftermath of 1914. I find it refreshing that apostates still don't get it. Contrary to the misguided claims made by the uneducated Carl Olof Jonsson in his comical book page 258, it is important to clarify that Pastor Russell did not make an error by emphasizing the significance of the gentile Ottoman Empire in 1914. However, it is crucial to note that the focus was not solely on the Ottoman Empire, but also on the liberation of the Jewish people from Palestine, which occurred under the governance of the British government. Pastor Russell empathized with the plight of the Jewish people, but that does not mean he was a Zionist, as some apostates and witnesses may believe. It is common for people to misinterpret Old English when spoken with proper etiquette. COJ made a significant misinterpretation by only seeing what they wanted to in the Balfour Declaration of 1917. It is crucial to note that the treaty consisted of two distinct parts, rather than just one. The first part focused on the idea of freedom, while the second part aimed to establish a homeland for the Jewish people. Just because Pastor Russell mentioned the Ottoman Empire doesn't mean he didn't understand the scheme of the Turkish students before 1914. Therefore, the "Gentile Times" began when God allowed the Babylonian Empire to conquer and rule over the Jewish nation, and it concluded with the dominance of another Gentile nation, whether you consider it to be England or the Ottoman Empire. If you aim to rewrite history, you must first challenge the events of World War 1 and the existence of the great Babylonian nation. What was going on with the Bible Students in 1878? Alexander Lyon Macfie - The Eastern Question 1774-1923 (Seminar Studies)-Routledge (1996) "In August 1878, following an international commission of inquiry, the British and French brought pressure to bear on Ismail to set up an international ministry, headed by Nubar Pasha, an Armenian, and including a British minister of finance and a French minister of public works; and in 1879, when Ismail organised opposition to the new ministry, they brought pressure to bear on the Sultan to secure his deposition." p.48 "All such attempts foundered, however, on the inability of the British to establish an effective regime, capable of maintaining order, and on their failure to reach agreement regarding conditions of withdrawal with the other powers, in particular the French, who objected to British demands for rights of re-entry in case of a threat of invasion or internal disorder arising. As the years passed, therefore, and when no agreement was arrived at, the British occupation became increasingly established, particularly following the conquest of the Sudan, completed in 1898; and in 1914, when the entry of the Ottoman Empire into the First World War on the side of the Central Powers obliged the British to reconsider their position, they officially declared the occupation to be at an end, and proclaimed a protectorate. p.50 England and the Middle East The Destruction of the Ottoman Empire 1914-1921 "If Schwartzberg is right—and his argument is clear and cogent—then Canning must rank as a precursor of those British statesmen and officials dealing with the Middle East from 1914 onwards in whom the ideological impulse or temptation proved so strong, and so far-reaching in its consequences." p, 8 (1987) Marian Kent - The Great Powers and the End of the Ottoman Empire (1996) "The following year, in May 1914, Talât Bey, primus inter pares in the Unionist movement, offered an alliance to Russia, but that, too, was not accepted.47 The Committee’s final attempt to reach an understanding with an Entente Power was the approach to France. Cemal Pasha, another leading member of the CUP with francophile proclivities, was sent to Paris in July 1914 for this purpose. He returned to Istanbul with French military decorations but no alliance.48 Meanwhile, negotiations with Berlin had been opened, and Cemal’s failure in Paris gave an impetus to them. Even the pro-Entente Cemal Pasha recognised that Turkey had no choice but to conclude an agreement with Germany to avoid being left isolated in another moment of crisis. That alliance was duly signed on 2 August 1914 as the First World War gathered momentum. p. 14 Carl Olof Jonsson's portrayal and critique of the Ottoman Empire is undeniably disconcerting, to say the least. I look forward to seeing how you will attempt to "disprove" the above with your insightful observation. I am eagerly anticipating the revelation of how astronomical data provides specific evidence pointing to the destruction of Jerusalem in 587 BC by specific documentation in any tablet. Still waiting how astronomy is the link to all history and the word of God isn't.
  24. …. ah yes …. …… the “Closed Club” ….
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