Srecko Sostar

I am respecting your freedom to this (and other) opinion about "people here" and "people of your worldwide brotherhood". I am sure that you in the same moment have perception and idea and guess about reality, that many people in your "worldwide brotherhood" feel and think similar to "people here", but they are not here to tell us that.

Let it put this way: Person can understand context for WTJWorg interpretation about 607 to 1914 to 1975. Is that (understanding) enough to make WTJWorg ideas to be true? It is not (only) about mental state of individual , but more about how WTJWorg doctrines shape and direct mental state of person. Continuity continues :))

It is a very awkward and embarrassing situation. Even if we discreetly told someone what was going on, that person would often tell it to others so that our private confession could be publicly known in front of many. So, many would be "healed", not just a sinner :)))

You chose a good verse. He dissolved the Judicial Committee and the executioners (stoning) with a few calm words. Under Jewish law and this law in the JW Congregation, adultery is a “gross sin” and cannot pass without the intervention of elders. Jesus showed that the elders and members of the Jew Congregation in this case have nothing to do and/or deal with her affairs.

Yes, i think i recall you or someone else mentioned this issue, about family members wish about not reporting. It will be interesting to hear more about this. About JW members (or as general) not reporting to police and also, how about not reporting to elders too.

Yes, i am learning exactly now. Please, will you clear here, about what God inspired them to be published? Oh dear God! Stick to context of comment. Jesus didn't act in roll of elder in Judicial Committee with another 2 elders and making decision about brother X or sister Y. I hope God will bless you this time and you will see the point :))). :)))

It can be. Some or enough patterns in New Jew congregations was from Old Jew system, as i can see. Eg. Apostles have meetings without presence of woman, as in case immediately after Jesus death. Jesus had spiritual meetings with apostles but their wives and children were not present. Sort of Men's club. Yes, Jesus made some extensions while speaking with women, but many important meetings were without women, without families of disciple. Perhaps their wives were not interested in new movement or been preoccupied with care for family. By the way, when we talk about women and apostles. The 3 Gospels report that the women saw the empty tomb and went to tell the apostles. However 1 Gospel (according to Mark) says that they did not go to tell anyone anything. Some explanation?

Many of us here know how GB and elders in JW congregations interpreting, how these verses in Mat 18 is about "minor sins". All "gross sins" must be reported to elders (not to police or other secular authorities). In such way of interpretation JW people can't apply verses 15 and 16 for "serious sin". But they are in obligation to apply verse 17 for "serious sin". Is CSA "serious sin" (or crime)? In WTJWorg interpretations that is matter for elders first/primarily. Only recently Organization gave permission to members to report that same thing (CSA) to secular governments. Now, is lying or stealing "serious sin"? What items from Chapter 18 do JW members apply in such a case? Do they report that to police, or only to elders? Or they are free to handle that individually? By now i see how Shepherd book (2019) speaking about things as fraud, slander, manslaughter, to some level connected with some sort of notification to/from secular authorities, and specifically/only about CSA in connection with secular governments and reporting. All in all question you made is proper: What do they (GB) obey? And what they teaching members to obey?

I can agree with your comment about issue. This sentence I singled out is very reminiscent of how WTJWorg blaming its members because they, reportedly/allegedly, didn’t understand what was written in the publications, so they began to believe in something they themselves thought was written in magazines (1975 is a great example from history that even today is part of JW talks in congregations and on JWTV).

Atheists "eat beef" without God. Believers "eat beef" with God. Well, what then?

Guidelines. Is this something that GB publishes (books, letters) and tells elders through seminars on how to proceed? As far as I remember Christ did not participate in the "Judicial commissions/committees" of his time... ... and he told, give Caesar what belong to Caesar. Why you ask me "silly" questions, on which you already know the answers?

GB determines in what matters a "brother" may be sued. Does that mean you can sue him in things that GB didn't approve of, yet? Why does GB consider that it has the right to determine when it is allowed to go to secular court and when it is not allowed? What “biblical passages” support these human rules? :)) smoking and inhaling, what is difference

Let be reminded on "Shepherd book" 2010. 19. Child abuse is a crime. Never suggest to anyone that they should not report an allegation of child abuse to the police or other authorities. If you are asked, make it clear that whether to report the matter to the authorities or not is a personal Chapter 12 131 WAT.0003.001.0132 decision for each individual to make and that there are no congregation sanctions for either decision. Elders will not criticize anyone who reports such an allegation to the authorities. If the victim wishes to make a report, it is his or her absolute right to do so. —Gal. 6:5. According to what all of us know very well, facts are: A) elders doing and not doing what GB say them B) elders believe and not believe what GB say them BOE letters and changed editions of "Shepherd books" proves this! The "theocratic culture" nurtured in the assemblies by the Corporation regarding “secular courts” did not allow what it allows today.

In WTJWorg, a structure is set up, a hierarchy that is both - spiritual and administrative. According to this measure, the WTJWorg Institution (I remind you again, JW lawyers claim in Court that according to the hierarchical system they are the same as the Catholic Church) determines who is allowed to say what and who is allowed to do what and how to do it. Because of such an "organized system", because the JW Church is an Organization, a Legal Body aka a Corporation and the people who are in the governing structures of this Organization have responsibility for the way they act and for the consequences of how they react to all events within each assembly. If the Organization is not able to “lead” the herd, if it is not able to have “under control” the elders and their ability to handle everything they have to solve in the assembly then it is a good question you ask; How would you handle that? The second part of the problem is the mentality of people (members), shame, hiding, feeling powerless, the question of who and how to ask for help, caution. And then we have the question of trust between members, trust between members and clergy (because elders want to be like Catholic clergy by privilege) , so we again have JW lawyers asking the Court Clergy Privilege, for what is being condemned as “unbiblical” in WTJWorg publications and in members mind. There are double measures inside congregations, favoritism and other "institutional (organizational) sins". And many more. So you ask good question: How would you handle that?

"If he gets a resurrection in the new system" ?? I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations. Yes, Arauna, you are right. I should have known you had faith in every word of Jesus. But I also assumed you had faith in most of what the WTJWorg interpretation is, so your IF confused me a bit. Because WTJWorg explains how this criminal will be with Jesus in Paradise not in heaven but on earth. That claim can be true, or it can be wrong. 140 years of publishing at WTJWorg gives us reason to be wary. :))

A wave of inspiration flooded you ?

"If he gets a resurrection in the new system" ?? I don't know what made questionable about this man, and you said IF. Jesus promised him that he will be with him in Paradise, so is your IF showing lack of faith in Jesus promise to criminal man? And about when and where he will live is not in our interpretations. ---------------------------------------- And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. According to what you want to tell me, it seems how Abyss is/will be on Earth?? .... and devil be locked somewhere on Earth for literal 1000 years?? How is possible that book full of symbolism you and WTJWorg interpreted in a way that some of visions have literal fulfillment and some stayed symbolic and have another meaning??

Sorry, wrong view. Perhaps naivety is my characteristic, but I have no trust in many things. ... and those 'unrighteous ones' who will be inclined to obey the government of christ will get a resurrection. Confusing conclusion. And based on what? If JW's claims how exists at least two group of "unrighteous", to one group the heart inclines to Jesus, as you said, and to others it does not incline to Jesus (??), then it would be logical to conclude that even among the "righteous who will be resurrected" there are also some characteristics (one, two or more) that make them fit and/or unfit for resurrection. Interpretation you and WTJWorg offer is strange. You and WTJWorg make Bible simple quote to be theologically obscure, darkened. Your doctrine making gradation of injustice, of unrighteousness. To some level ones unrighteousness is acceptable, and/but after some point unrighteousness of other is not acceptable. If I remember correctly, the idea being advocated, is that these are “unrighteous” who have not heard or understood the preaching about Jesus, about good news, proclaimed in the past before WTJWorg and maybe today in time of JW global preaching. Merely human interpretations and guessing. WTJWorg is in chaos about such things and producing misconceptions in the thoughts and heart of the members. Adam and Eve need few minutes to came from perfection to imperfection. Why would reverse process take more time? Someone has faith or no faith:))

Perhaps this is how it could be said; Man is the cause of the problem, so man could also be the solution to the problem. Here is an example/fact you provide of how the authorities, various commissions and investigations are stuck in resolving the CSA. While the competent people, in a secular and religious society, try to improve the situation or obstruct the solution of the problem, during that time old and new victims of violence suffer. The entry of religion, whatever religion is supposed to mean, will not contribute to a solution. Eg. WTJWorg is partly a religion, but by its actions in investigations or in the courts it has primarily sought to protect itself, its Administration. Similar is done by other Institutions, religious or not. Furthermore, I see the following problem. JW people speak and hope for the Kingdom as the solution to all problems. But I think that vision is a bit vague to them as well. Or the vision is distorted by misconceptions of what and how “their” Kingdom will work. The kingdom (as the vision of most JW members) is like any other creation similar to what is around us. The JWs explain that the Kingdom is a theocracy, hence the rule of God. If this were so then no physical, earthly elements should be present. Earthly elements are levers of power and hierarchy. So in the Kingdom of God there must be no Kings, Princes, Elders, Ministerial servants, Governing Body, Helpers etc. JW preach the opposite. Their vision of the Kingdom of God is presented with all the elements that exist today not only in their Organization, but also in the Catholic Church (remember the statement of JW lawyers in Court that they are organized on the same hierarchical principle as the Catholic Church) and in secular terms. Thus, one group (minority) shapes policy and determines direction, the other group (majority) follows instructions. So even in this kind of Kingdom of God, there will need to be a system of oversight, judiciary, and repression. Question is; Who will do this? Human? Is it really a theocracy? Until the individual himself stops doing bad but only does good, there is no Kingdom.

:))) it is the conversation of two sages, that is, philosophers Let me comment again on this. They (people) could conclude the following: If you say nothing AGAINST something, then others might (perhaps rightly) conclude that 1) the person knows nothing about the true state of affairs or 2) that his silence justifies, supports and allows the status quo. Of course there is also point 3) and 4) but i would not want to complicate :))

:))) it is the conversation of two sages, that is, philosophers

@JW Insider You have very, very good memory and you are skilled in computer use. Great. I envy you ... a little.

Thanks, but these are not my examples but Bible text ... and some English translations. I am not dealing with Greek language but with nowadays languages (English and Croatian translations) Is she sick? Has she already died? Will she die while we talk and walk?

Yeah. But it is optional method for some people. :))

I didn't ask this issue, but i will provide you with one example of changing Bible text. When Jesus had again crossed over by boat to the other side of the lake, a large crowd gathered around him while he was by the lake. 22 Then one of the synagogue leaders, named Jairus, came, and when he saw Jesus, he fell at his feet. 23 He pleaded earnestly with him, 24 “My little daughter is dying. Please come and put your hands on her so that she will be healed and live.” So Jesus went with him. - mark 5 23 niv After Jesus had crossed again by boat to the opposite shore, a large crowd gathered together to him, and he was by the sea.+ 22 One of the presiding officers of the synagogue, named Jaʹi·rus, now came, and on catching sight of him, he fell at his feet.+ 23 He pleaded with him many times, saying: “My little daughter is extremely ill.* (*near her end) Please come and put your hands on her+ so that she may get well and live.” 24 At that Jesus went with him, and a large crowd was following him and pressing against him. - mark 5 23 nwt While he was saying this, a synagogue leader came and knelt before him and said, "My daughter has just died. But come and put your hand on her, and she will live." - matt 9 18 niv While he was telling them these things, look! a certain ruler who had approached did obeisance to him, saying: “By now my daughter must be dead, but come and lay your hand on her, and she will come to life. - matt 9 18 nwt What is the truth about Jairus' daughter? To whom we should believe, to Mark or Matthew? Or to NWT idea where they changed text into 3rd possibility; By now my daughter must be dead ??