Srecko Sostar

Apologize, you get it wrong. @Anna used Holly Folk research, who said ARC was wrong by putting WTJWorg in this category of "institutional abuse" instead in "family abuse" category. And as i understand Anna agree with HF. Holy Folk is, it seems, first person who made such sort of ("ridiculous") comparison and triggered discussion and agreement/disagreement on her statement. :))

From this it could justifiably be concluded that all organizations are similar and that none meet the “divine” criteria. Differences in theology become irrelevant if members cannot curb their negative urges/impulses and if cultivate prejudices toward members of other religions and toward former members. Out of a desire to please God, Cain and Abel forgot that they should love one another first, and only then love God.

HF aka Holly Folk from Cesnur (strange organization indeed) speaking about "family abuse" inside JW organization/congregations as something that is real problem in WTJWorg. She explained/stated how cases of CSA in WTJWorg are not "institutional". Let see. How many parents / guardians have committed CSA to their children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard. How many JW members regardless of status (rank and file, MS, elders) have committed CSA over other people's children? When this became known, then the "institution" through WTJWorg elders, took "institutional measures" in this regard. In both cases, the WTJWorg institution became involved in "family" relations or "private" relations between members and decided that such a case was within the jurisdiction of WTJWorg, a "religious-business institution". Moreover, WTJWorg has over time established a “procedure” or “policy” on how such matters should be dealt WITHOUT involving “secular institutions”. So please, who wants to tell stories here and blur the eyes of others? HF and Cesnur for sure. Who else? On the other hand, if WTJWorg has had a problem with “domestic violence and family abuse” to such an extent throughout all these decades, than we need to seriously ask - where has the “WTJWorg institution” failed?

I think the general climate (I’m talking about the period between 1970 and 2015) was for the JW family to participate together in all theocratic activities, with young children from an early age to “adapt” to the assembly. It also means participating in the field ministry. I remember a situation of a married couple who loved pioneering service (general, 90 hours) who traveled many kilometres in a car with a small child (from when she was a baby onward). That little girl was about 4 or five years ( in the middle to the end of 1980) old when a provincial overseer (CO) said to that brother (an informal meeting was at a some brother's house in Rijeka), "And why are you dragging that little kid around with you?" This greatly upset that married couple and these two brothers were often in verbal confrontations on many issues. So perspectives are different on many things. One thing is said and expected from the podium, another is done in real time and on the "field". :))

It happens, it repeats itself periodically to every generation of JW. Excellent advice!

The difference being that they will be replaced by ones of God's choosing through Christ. You still keep looking at men choosing men. Still so physical. Wake up, think in a spiritual way. God and Christ are not physical.... Um, let me think now. Who is ruling now ? Oh yes, the GB, who say they are Anointed. Those 8 men that say they are the ONLY Faithful and Discreet Slave. Those 8 men that say that 'God and Christ trusts them, so the whole JW congregation should trust them'. Yes that's who's ruling now. Is there any clear and "theocratic" foundation about number of FDS or number of GB or number of Helpers? Just for the sake of discussion. :)) 12 apostles need "replacement" for 1 they lost. I mean, they can worked with 11 just fine, didn't they? What is the minimum number of GB members to be Legitimate, according to the Company Charter, according to the Companies Act (secular law), to the Bible, to Jesus, etc.? And yes, @4Jah2me remarked excellently on the details of who should choose the "leadership." Supposedly, Jesus chose GB in 1919. So "we" would expect how Jesus have to pick the person for task of "feeding", not GB members. They (GB) can make choice about elders in conversation with CO. :))

In congregation, there are male lobsters and female lobsters :)) and all have their roles within possible hierarchies and possible outcomes.

It turns out that the only important thing is to recognize those on JWTV who are set to teach the lessons. The job of the Administration is to silence any objection to their work, and to eliminate possible "competitors". Yes, people can do that, surely. Perhaps is better to "taste" their deeds and words before we unconditionally (or conditionally) accept them as "distributors of spiritual food". Now one more thing. And when you accept them, it is not for eternity. Because anyone can go the wrong way, so it would be good not to follow him when we realize something is wrong.

Social pressure made by GB ? :)) @Anna Page 24, Par.10 “How can we show appropriate respect for those whom Jehovah chooses to anoint? We would not ask them personal questions about their anointing. We thus avoid meddling with what does not concern us." - WT Jan 2016 , .... source find in interesting topic;

Faulty logic. We don't really care too much about what "pagans" do or do not do. No, you get it wrong. :)) JW members don't celebrate birthdays because; a) supposedly, old Jews not celebrate birthdays b) of Bible text interpretations where two "pagans" celebrate birthdays (Pharaoh and Herod). c) it is idolatry, according to JW teachings

For example; the preaching service divided into categories of preachers, hourly norms, giving a monthly report.

This saying about Armageddon seems acceptable, but it is not. Some JW people chose poorly paid jobs because everything will fall apart anyway so retirement doesn’t matter because Armageddon will come soon. Some did not invest in the maintenance of the house, because it will soon end, why invest in what will be destroyed in Armageddon. The WTJWorg administration, on the other hand, made big plans and investments in real estate construction and then sold them for big money. Most were raised by voluntary contributions from members who gave to the Organization. Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever.” Mahatma Gandhi.

I wouldn't agree with a setting like this, Anna. There are things, in both religion and science, that could be called dogmas. In earlier science, such as that of the Middle Ages, there were “scientific assumptions” completely contrary to today’s understanding and evidence. In one significant part, correct me if I am wrong, the former science was in the hands of religious systems that claimed to have knowledge of “divine” origin, and therefore that knowledge was “infallible”. Today, we have a different science. It is beyond the reach of religion. Even contrary to religious teachings. It is based on a different approach, methods and insights. Therefore, we will not say that scientific discoveries are "false or true" as in religion, but that they are "correct or inaccurate", because new evidence can confirm or change previous conclusions. It is different with religion. We always have the same basic premise, and that is, “All knowledge comes from God,” and he determines what is right and wrong, what is true and false. In religious matters, teachings, and conclusions, people supposedly rely entirely on the Word of God, and therefore such conclusions and dogmas are "true," for God is a God of truth, not falsehood. A lie is a deliberate untruth. There is no room for error here because we accidentally made a mistake. Religious leaders do not introduce any teaching or instruction with words that warn the flock in advance of the possibility of future changes in doctrine or give room for possible errors in doctrines. No, no religion does that. Also, even GB in WTJWorg never distances itself in advance from the fact that everything they say may be wrong. The “truth” is always published in WTJWorg, according to their own claims in the literature. Subsequent changes in the interpretation of previous interpretations are called “new light” which illuminates “old light”. No one in WTJWorg called “old light” a real name within religious i.e. biblical terminology: lie. If WTJWorg were a scientific organization, then they could talk about their teachings as “mistakes”. But WTJWorg is an expression of the Kingdom of God on Earth and declares itself to be the successor of the First Congregation of Jesus Christ. So, it is of a religious character. And in religion there are only two: truth or lie.

You have nicely shown that the biblical text (about Armageddon) can be understood in a completely different way than the one offered by WTJWorg.

I would comment this way. Example: Birthday and celebrating a birthday is not “satanic”. But wishing someone’s death as a birthday wish is certainly “satanic”. The discovery of a new communication technique and resources (clay tablets, paper, pens, analog and digital notation and everything that will be invented in the future) cannot simply be described as "divine" or "satanic". All of these things are mostly or completely “neutral” at their core. Producing a weapon with the intent to kill causes some questions. Whether these weapons were created to defend their own lives or to hunt for food or to conquer and enslave or destroy, we can say that the weapon is dangerous. But if one uses a weapon to save or defend one’s life, then it is difficult to attribute any or specific origin to such a weapon. I would say that the intention and purpose is in the hands (mind, emotion) of the user, and the one in whose hands the "tool" is, can to some extent be classified in some category.

When God saw what they did and how they turned from their evil ways, he relented and did not bring on them the destruction he had threatened. - Jonah 3 10 God relented, changed his mind and his intention. What if JW preaching service will be faced with same sort of decision about "Armageddon" in the future?

Yes, but he was his own boss :))

He preached what he heard. GB heard nothing! .... or they heard voices, still? :)) After some time Jonah heard something else. So, both voices came from same place (same person aka God) and what Jonah told people, "both news", were true as such. "Jonah message or truth" were not the result of a "light that shines more and more" in which the second stronger light replaces the first which shines less brightly. These were two completely clear messages with two contents. There, nothing depended on the spiritual-intellectual effort of the people to try to understand the "riddle". What is the rational belief of a child who sees a cat for the first time, not knowing it is a cat, but his mother telling him it is a cat? The child trusts the mother and that is why this statement is correct. Adult people believe other people how something is true. And in many cases they don't question it, they don’t check it. In WTJWorg was created special climate in which members “learn” how far they are allowed to question and doubt something. The "Rubicon" exists and is passed from generation to generation.

This remind me of similar here. A lot of years have passed since then, so I can’t say for sure when that was topical. But I think it started sometime after 1990. The former Yugoslavia in particular, and later Croatia, is late for the USA, so this idea is very easily a copy of what happened in your country. Some brothers founded a company to make orthopedic insoles. So there were JW doctors involved, JW craftsmen and .... now this most interesting, a large number of JW pioneers and those who wanted to be pioneers and work for money. So, that "bunch" of pioneers were actually traveling traders who offered orthopedic insoles to people who had sore feet. They took footprints and sent them to Rijeka (a city on the sea) and I think Zagreb also. So these brothers and sisters regular pioneers (90 hours) had two roles, traveling pioneers and traveling merchants. At one point, it was no longer known when they were doing what, because the two activities were intertwined. This lasted for some time, but there were more and more problems in the spiritual-financial-management relations. I don’t know does something similar exist today, but I recall how that great idea of having a lot of pioneers and private business together ended ingloriously.

People would like (and should) be able to say ... what they think (good or bad, truth or false, whether others like it or not). There are shy people, insecure, there are those who may not trust others. Some may say only to selected close friends, but not in public in front of others, etc. If others knew something about us, they might consider us less valuable or they might misuse information about us sometime in the future. They may be afraid of the reactions of the environment or the consequences of honesty. The family and the environment in which they live may feel that some topics should not be public because they are a “sensitive topic”. I am of the opinion that it is not that we do not want to tell the truth, but that we are afraid of the truth, the truth about ourselves and others. :))

Like this!

Most JW members have not yet realized this.

I get it and agree. I believe (am sure) most non-JW's are not interested in JW or ex-JW experiences. Because they have "their life" and are not interested in some religious minority that has problems of this or that nature. It seems to me that there are very few newspaper articles about JW and their structure, at least about the public side of JW. Internal problems can rarely, if ever, be heard about. CSA experiences have only recently drawn attention to religions and thus to WTJWorg, too. WTJWorg cultivates introversion, closed culture inside organization, and only what is "public" is preaching service. Individuals are taught, by organization, to be secretive about internal things. But that is not nothing new, most institution, religious or non-religious working on same principles. So, WTJWorg is as any other "worldly" organization in this matter. Or to put it much more simply, it is in human nature (let dirty laundry stay inside home, ...especially if I personally smeared or contributed to it happening. ). Ex-JW's changed that picture by openly speaking about own and other members experience. Speaking about your experiences and problems in a public way can be part of “healing” from that part of your personal life, dissatisfaction, trauma, or disappointment. How long can or should it last? I do not know. But it is obviously not simple or easy. On the other hand, it may be the only way for the public to know what WTJWorg would never honestly and openly admit about itself and how GB runs the organization and what is “sold” under the “God and Truth” label. It can be. But i don't see as a problem. In the environment of the assembly, such an individual was under pressure from the environment, and he realized that speaking openly about something brings condemnation from the members. In this new environment (you tube and the like) he can say and try to defend his views, more or less successful. In comparison with previous, he was not allowed to do any of that in the assembly. In fact, many of the current JWs here on the Forum are proof of what we are saying. Because if it weren't so, everyone "real JW" would be in "real preaching service", not here where they "outwit/bicker with the opposition" :))) Stay well.

Pilate asked Jesus, What is the truth? And Jesus didn't respond. If I ask You, What is "the truth" ... for You?, will you and what you would answer? Let me help you. If someone had ask you 30, 20, 10, 5, 2,5 years ago what is "the truth" taught by WTJWorg, would you have the same answers as today? If you stayed in that truth from 30 years ago, because you built it firmly into yourself, then you would not accept "some new truth" that the same organization would offer you later. So the question is; Did the organization "have made the truth their own ”? Obviously not! Well, what is in common for people who stayed and organization who changed? People who stayed are people described in first part of sentence. People who left have various, different reactions. As for me, for example, i don't see why i would blame organization for not celebrating my birthdays in the past 53 years. :))) People (can) have regrets for decisions or for either because they were deceived, or because they allowed themselves to be deceived and so on. WTJWorg "institutional settings" are made in such a way that members can rightly have objections and can blame the organization for many injustices and failures. In this sense, I do not see why individuals should be blamed for resenting the “organization” and its "official representatives" or even other ordinary members who were unjust to their fellow believers because of their “blind obedience to the organization”.

He (Jesus) has told us that the “generation” of 1914—the year that the sign began to be fulfilled—“will by no means pass away until all these things occur.” (Matthew 24:34) Some of that “generation” could survive until the end of the century. But there are many indications that “the end” is much closer than that! - https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1984165 1) This kid girl told the truth. 2) Watchtower study magazine made false statement/prediction/prophecy/claim/doctrine. JW members refusing to play anthem but accepting to believe false doctrines. .... And despite such reality, yours and others JW people reality, you @Arauna ask me "trivial" question about different issue and dare to put me in a box you created for people like me. Funny, unnecessary and missed :))