JOHN BUTLER

Um, you seem to have hit another important point here. You are talking about how YOU feel about the way YOU are treated. Try opening out, try thinking about others. Try seeing the bigger picture. The idea is that the JW Org as a whole 'has love amongst itself'. What I'm trying to make you and others aware of is that the JW Org does not have complete love amongst the whole association of brothers and sisters. I know I will get told to 'change the record' but the Child Abuse issues and the shunning issues prove the point I'm making. It was fear of being disfellowshipped that stopped people reporting the crimes of Child Abuse within the Org. Because disfellowshipment meant a complete cutting off from family and 'friends'. A complete loneliness... If you can understand what that does to a person then you might just have an ounce of compassion and love for those ones.

A. It's been 8 men from Jan or Feb of this year. B. It's the Governing body that have said some of the anointed have mental issues. You said I had issues and 'not a good place to be mentally'. Almost alluding to the same thing. C. You don't seem to know the 'rules' very well. There is a difference between being disfellowshipped, and a person disassociating themselves. Basically 'you cannot fire someone that has already quit'. And a person has to have repeatedly done something against Jehovah for them to disfellowship. I had done nothing that serious so they had no reason. I will say that if i had done enough for them to disfellowship me, I know they would have jumped at the chance. But by your very comment you prove my point. They try to make it look as if i had sinned greatly... You may say that i have sinned, but if so, only against the JW Org, not against Jehovah in a serious way.

Why did you put 7 in brackets ? The GB comprises of 8 men. And you are a typical JW in your response. It's not me that has issues, it's the JW Org. But as I've said you people bury your heads in the sand as you are frightened to respond to the truth about the GB and the Org. Quite funny though how you copy the GB, the GB say that some of those of the anointed have mental issues. And once again regarding the death of Jesus, you do not have a clue. However the GB thought it important enough to change what Thomas said in God's word, to something untrue. For a JW you don't seem very well informed, not even knowing how many men in the GB. As for me feeling i was controlled by those 8 men, i didn't. I felt the Org was controlled by them. By that i mean that the elders were controlled by the GB and the elders then controlled the congregants. I was clever enough not to share my feelings with others in my congregation, because that would have given the elders an excuse to disfellowship me. The reason they would have used is "Causing a division within the congregation". So i calmly emailed as many elders as possible and told them i was leaving the JW Org. Then i had the meeting to confirm it... However the GB gives orders that the elders are not allowed to say someone has left, so the elder can only say that so and so, 'is no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses.. As so many people are leaving the Org the GB do not want the congregants to know that a person chooses to leave. I was also clever enough to tell a few 'brothers' that i was leaving before i left so that they would know i wasn't disfellowshipped. But even so they are too frightened to talk to me because of GB rules. If only you could understand that the JW Org is run by fear not love. Just as the Pharisees did it back in the time of Jesus.

My wife discusses all the meetings, that she attends, with me. She tells me about the talks and the W.T study articles. She tells me whom she has spoken to before and after the meeting. It's quite a fun occasion over lunch, listening to her. She is not baptised but still the elders try to tell her not to discuss spiritual matters with me. I can now see why she has never wanted to get baptised. I agree with her feelings which are this :- When a person dedicates themself to God it is a personal dedication, an agreement between the person and God. However when a person gets baptised as a JW, the JW Org see it as that person becoming a member of their religion and accepting their rules... It gives the JW org control over a person, as is easily seen by the way it treats people. As for me 'going on' at my wife, no i don't. I mention things when she asks, and if any new news arrives concerning the Org or Child Abuse then i will tell her. But on a day to day basis we have too much other stuff to talk about and to do.. She obviously sees me reading the Bible daily but I don't talk about it to the point of being annoying.

Oh come on, this seems to have started as a joke, pillow gate. SM has made it serious as he seems to have some interest in the problem. Either you or someone said, that either the GB or others, are trying to give instruction where God Himself has given none. Is it therefore right for the GB, the elders or anyone to judge those that have this 'problem', if God himself and Jesus Christ have not mentioned it. I can see it as a way for 'shrinks' to earn money by making people feel guilty and then pretending to 'help' them... But if God shows no interest in it then should we even be bothering to worry about it ? Of course the GB could be using it to make the young ones feel guilty. Like the Pharisees loading burdens on the people.

SM you seem to be the only one on here worrying about it all. I have just re-read the first three pages and it seems to have started off as a joke... Pillow gate. These people that you say are trying to 'help' others. Do they get paid for doing so ? Are they what i call 'shrinks' ? Messing with people's heads. Telling people what is right and wrong even though God Himself gives no direction on such matters. God will judge each of us through Jesus Christ, when the time comes. Let us not be like the Pharisees who put extra burdens on the people.

I think you missed my point. Yes masturbation is not something God is pleased with, but neither is the Governing Body of the JW Organisation. For the GB to make such a video when they are deliberately allowing Child Abuse / Pedophilia within the same Organisation is total hypocrisy. I see it as they are trying to use anything else to turn people's attention away from their dishonest dealings regarding Child Abuse.

Because JW congregants are frightened of upsetting the elders, and the elders are frightened of the GB. The GB make up rules so that they have power over others. The elders enforce those rules. The shunning thing for instance. Totally against the word of God and against the things Jesus taught. A person may think they have 'friends' in the Organisation but if that person decides to leave the Org' (because the Org is doing things wrong) then they find they no longer have any of those 'friends'. But if you asked any of those ex 'friends' what scripture they are following by not talking to you, they would not have a clue. They just do as they are told by the elders, who in turn just past on the messages from the GB... It appears that the Elders also try to tell the marriage mates of those that leave the Org' not to discuss scriptural things with the one who has left. So where do the elders get this instruction from ? The Child Abuse problem brought about because the GB continuously told the congregants not to report it to the police or the outside authorities. And the GB told the elders not to tell the congregants that there were / are Pedophiles within those congregations. However the GB were secretly collecting information about said Pedophiles from at least 1997 onward. Jesus himself said it would be very bad for anyone that causes the stumbling of one such young child. My my, how much stumbling has the GB caused, and proof of it is now very clear Earthwide. .. Unless you bury your head in the sand and do not know the truth about such things.... And as I've said before the GB, 8 men, most of whom are American, also say that they are the only ones that God is working through and that the others of the anointed are not being used in that way. Then to add insult to it, the GB say that some of those who say they are anointed, are mentally ill. Has Jesus given the GB the right to judge others ? I think not. Tell me, what do you think ? When Jesus was killed was it on a stake or a cross ? If on a stake, where were his hands ? How many nails were used on his hands ? Where were these nails placed ? Thomas said that he would not believe until he saw the 'holes' (plural) in the HANDS (plural) where the NAILS (plural) went through. However the GB had the picture made of Jesus hanging on a stake with ONE NAIL through both wrists. You might say it's a small point but the scripture says at Luke 16 v10 "The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much.... " Your GB are not faithful to God, nor do they follow the footsteps of Jesus Christ. 'By their works you will know them'. Yes indeed.

Oh dear once again you twist what i say. I've never said Jehovah is bad. However i will say for definite that the JW Org and it's GB, DO NOT OWN GOD. If you cannot separate God from the Org then it's you that have a problem. I'm saying it's the GB that have put themselves in place of Jesus Christ as mediator. I pray to God only through Jesus Christ. It was Jesus, as a perfect man, that gave his life willingly not the GB. However if you wish to serve the GB and therefore worship them, it is your choice. As for my many questions which you did not answer. It was in answer to your comment about 'no crime being committed. Well if all I've read is true, in fact if only half of it is true, then plenty of crimes have been committed. 'Crimes' against Jehovah God, making the Organisation a disgusting place and therefore bringing reproach on God Himself. Making God's name known, then dragging it through the dirt, is that good in your eyes ?

I note that you didn't answer any of my questions and I'm wondering if your reply above is supposed to be some sort of an blanket answer. If you see my points as just being 'facts of the head' then you seem to be of the same mind as the GB. That is, that it's ok to allow Child Abuse in the Org, its just collateral damage. GB thinking, 'What's a few thousand abused kids and complaining adults when we have 8 million members and the money keeps rolling in' ? 'What's a few suicides and people with mental / emotional problems due to the shunning issues which have no scriptural backing, whilst we still have our power and glory from men' ? 'We'll just make a few more 'clever' videos and predictions by misusing scripture'. 'A few more misuses of scripture in our 'study Watchtowers, and the sheep will still follow us'.. I do hope that Jehovah is closely examining the 'hearts' of the Governing Body. For surely their hearts are not toward serving Jehovah God.

I think the GB are well aware that most things they do, write, video etc become public very quickly. I think in many cases the GB are just trying to impress the public, just as the Pharisees did. Put on a show of 'righteousness'. Who leaked this vid' out anyway if it is for a 'private' audience ? Do the GB really think the young people in Bethel don't know about the massive amount of Child Abuse going on in the Org ? Hypocrisy at its best.

You don't seem to have much faith in God then. If God wants to have or needs to have a 'clean organisation' then I'm sure he could arrange that. Were not the Pharisees and the Sadducees at the apex of the pyramid ? Didn't Jesus show them up for what they were? But now Jesus is in an even higher, more powerful position. If God through Jesus Christ wants the JW Org to be cleaned out, then it will be cleaned out.... The wicked slave gets thrown out into the street, and that is where the gnashing of his teeth will be.

But the point here in this discussion seems to be is it important for the JW 'bosses' to blow this out of all proportion ? Or are they using it as a way of pretending to be 'righteous' ?

My comment which you are twisting was about whether a true servant of God would need a 'mans law' to tell them what action to take. That is, should they report Child Abuse or not. Any true servant of God would know that all Child Abuse should be reported to the Police and the other authorities such as Child welfare whether its compulsory or not. The Pedophile needs to be caught and dealt with by a legal court. You do know don't you that there were courts and judges and prisons in Jesus' time ?

In honesty I don't think the masturbation problem is such a problem in God's eyes. To some humans that want to judge others, masturbation can be used as an excuse to judge, and could possibly be big business for 'shrinks'.. As for the JW's Governing Body, i think the masterbation video and other info' is just a 'smoke screen' or side track, to take the pressure off the serious problems within the Org. If the GB can pretend to be concerned about the cleanliness of the Org then it will look good for them in front of man. But of course God sees through such things.

Are you saying that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have such total control of the Organisation that they could not be removed ? Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.... But, as Jesus said, with God all things are possible.

So, is it true that the GB started gathering documents about Child Abuse / pedophilia accusations, from all congregations in the USA from 1997 and that this is ongoing ? Then is it true that the GB or its legal departments refused to hand these documents over the the Supreme Court of California ? Is it also true that the Organisation was fined around $2 million for not handing over the documents ? Doesn't the scriptures say to 'be obedient to the law of the land unless it conflicts with God's laws' ? Surely God would not want the Organisation to remain unclean ? ...... Then again is it true that the GB or its Legal dept' agreed on massive (secret amount) payouts to the two men (ex Brothers) regarding the child abuse they suffered whilst in the 'truth' ? And who's money did the GB use to make these massive payouts ? .... But you say 'no crimes have been committed'... And in Canada is it true that a 66 million dollar lawsuit is in the process, against the JW Org because of Child Abuse /pedophilia ? I won't ask about here in the UK or in the Netherlands. Perhaps it was the reports of Child Abuse being so regular that made the GB take action in 1997... As for this stupid argument as to what the law states or does not state, its totally irrelevant. JW's should know what is right in God's eyes without needing a man made law. And talking of law it seems there is some proof that a brother (of some importance in the Org) here in the UK actually told brothers to destroy documents about Child Abuse accusations "because satan is coming after the organisation". Um destroying evidence is surely illegal in man's law, and against God's 'laws too. I have read in scripture that if a man has some information regarding a 'crime' or bad deed, if he withholds that information it is a sin for him. It is as bad as deliberately telling lies. .... It matters not what any other organisation does. Religious or business, legal or illegal....... People, brothers or otherwise, should not be considered collateral damage within the JW ORG, just to keep the pretence of cleanliness. So I will repeat my comment which you answered on. And how could a person, with a clear conscience, go on the ministry to try to bring more people into an Organisation which allows such wicked Child Abuse to go on ?

I'll continue my daily Bible reading and my prayers to God and hopefully something will happen to give me some direction. Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem but it was a long time (in human terms) before it happened. Patience is required for many things. Should I expect God to answer my prayers immediately ? No of course not. Maybe i am being put to the test. Maybe God wants to know if I'm sincere. Or, maybe there will be big changes within the JW Org and it will 'cleaned out' and then have God's approval.

The GB claims that only those 8 men themselves are the 'faithful and discreet slave'. Although there are many more humans that claim to be of the anointed those 8 men say that the others are not important... Where do they get their authority from to say such things ? They also say that some who claim to be anointed are 'mentally unbalanced'. These 8 men pass judgement on other anointed brothers and sisters, whilst praising themselves up. Luke 14 v 11 "For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled and whoever humbles himself will be exalted".... I think God may have these 8 men removed and replaced by more humble servants of His. It seems strange to have only 8 men when there were twelve tribes of Israel and Jesus himself chose 12 men as his closest companions. It also seems strange to have a GB of mainly white Americans. The Org is now Earthwide and therefore it would seem more logical to have a 'body of 12 men' from all the nations possible. Each man would have more understanding of the problems people from his own country face... And maybe also God would use others from the anointed to be more active and giving more input. This is of course only my opinion.

Ah but the Pope is organised and so is the Archbishop, and probably most leaders of most 'Christian' religions, but it does not make them right and it does not give them God's approval. So to follow the direction of a GB that does not have God's approval and is not directed by God's holy spirit would be 'the blind leading the blind'. And how could a person, with a clear conscience, go on the ministry to try to bring more people into an Organisation which allows such wicked Child Abuse to go on. And how could such a person follow the wicked rule of shunning innocent people just because the GB says so.... Yes I agree with you, God has to show us the right Organisation to be part of, but the JW Org does not seem to measure up to it. You seem to put aside the fact that the GB proclaim to be the 'Faithful and discreet slave' and they say that no one else but them have this special communication with God. So for you to say the GB may or may not be doing a good job is rather strange if in fact you believe the proclamation they make about themselves.

Sorry don't understand. The scriptures say 'Keep knocking and it will be opened to you'. So i keep knocking by regular prayer.

I am not fully aware of this discussion as it has only been coming up on my emails for the past 3 days. However it is my opinion that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been going beyond the things written for many years. As they falsely claim to be the 'faithful and discreet slave class' they then use this claim to make any rules and statements they wish. I haven't watched the masterbation video but it would seem to me that the GB are acting like politicians, trying to direct the floodlight in a different direction, away from the Child Abuse serious problem in the Org, of which the GB are the cause.... However i did find in Leviticus at ch15 v16 Jehovah does mention about a man being unclean if he has an emission of semen. .... Moving on. Your underlined sentence about mistreating our own family. Is this a nudge at the Shunning problem in the JW org ? If not it should be. The GB of the JW org make up their own rules and 'laws' and the Elders follow like puppets, obeying without question. The GB has 'chased away' many people. Many of them victims of Child Abuse and many others that try to help those victims. So the GB of the JW Org are guilty of manslaughter if those 'outside the Org' will be judged unworthy on the 'Judgement Day'. My opinion is that the GB are the 'evil slave class' that mistreat the servants of the house of God. But where it goes from here i have no idea... If we are close to the 'end of this system' then surely Yahweh / Jehovah has to show everyone the true way to serve Him properly. If not then how can we be considered unworthy, if we haven't been shown the honest 'truth'. This stupid Masterbation video at such an important time just shown how lost the GB are. and it shows that they are not the 'faithful slave'. As for 'telling all' to the Elders, no definitely not. We should confess our sins to God through Jesus Christ and ask forgiveness on the basis of Jesus' sacrifice, not confess our sins to mere men who have no authority from God. It can be clearly seen that the Elders have no idea how to manage anything other than the running of the 'meetings'.... Since leaving the JW Org I have continuously prayed to God using both names Yahweh and Jehovah and always prayed through Jesus Christ. I am reading the 4 gospels over and over now and finding things I never noticed before. but I will confess one thing, I have not yet moved forward. So I am waiting on God through Jesus Christ and the holy spirit to give me direction through His written word. Otherwise what options do i have as I believe the scriptures when they say 'Put not your trust in earthling man'. However i am confused by one more thing. It has always occurred to me that God's written word was never written for all of us to understand properly. It seems to have been written for only the Anointed to understand and then for them to instruct those who show faith. But if we cannot be sure who the anointed truly are then we have a problem. 'By their works you will know them' for sure, but would that really mean going through every 'christian type religion' ? Enough for now. Please do not be angry with me for sharing my thoughts even though they may be off topic.

@Space Merchant So which of these am i then ? But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. Now, I'm not even pretending to be a brother. And as far as i know I'm not committing these direct sins. Of course i commit sin as everyone does, and I ask God's forgiveness through Jesus christ. So why are the JW's not allowed to talk to me ? And many people that say they have been wronged in the JW Org and have left the Org because they felt deeply hurt, or because they were wrongly treated by Elders, are now shunned. Why ? It proves that no one has friends in the Org, only brothers and sisters that do their duty to one another. And like I've said to others YOU ALL THINK THAT ALL THE VICTIMS EARTHWIDE ARE TELLING LIES. How misled you all are. Do you honestly think that a few apostates have gone around the Earth, Australia, Canada, USA, Netherlands and UK, and made all the stories up concerning Sexual Child Abuse ? Do you really believe that ? Well that's your choice. I would rather have empathy for the victims and also be concerned about future victims, whilst the Pedophiles are kept hidden in the JW Org...

@TrueTomHarley Quote "I'm not scared of them. Nor do I know anyone who is". Once again it seems that you are calling all of the Victims of Child Abuse liars. Hundreds if not thousands of them Earthwide are all liars are they ? Surely you can read how many of them have said the Elders were not approachable and that Victims were frightened of being disfellowshipped if they told anyone else or if they went to the police. Children are frightened of the Elders, adults are frightened on the Elders, old people are frightened of the Elders. You just don't want to see it. Put your head back in the sand